Sinn fein- the new nazi party?

Cork

Originally posted by monument

Would you like if the IRA were all guns and bombs with no talk? - maybe that's what you want?

What did the IRA actually achieve. They accept partition these days.

They IRA still have their guns and bombs - they still are engaged in rackets & kangaroo courts.

But getting back to the SF/IRA links - Has SF has ever clarified the exact nature and extent of these links?

The IRA only devided the people of NI. They deepened devion in an already devided society.

This was the stupidity of their "war".

The IRA themselves had little regard for human life - planting bombs in trash cans.

dark_knight_ire

Gosh i never thought that one simple question would be such a hot topic.


People it was not meant to get into an anti brit post come on we are more grown up to put that behing us the purpose of this post was to look at those who have not I.E. Sinn Fein. I don't hate the brit but still feel Raw thinking back.

Cork

The British government is putting £10 billiion a year into Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is full of government jobs with very little industry.

Britian is closest neighbour.

Slogans like "Brits out" are nonsense.

The Irish love UK football aldough many bar stool republicans have big chips on their sholders.

Not about the IRA and all that orginisations carnage but of the British.

bus77

Ive seen Militant Nationalism been pointed out as a mark of fascism on Sinn Fein you people seem to forget that Militant Nationalism happens by default if your life is being run by a forign country.

monument

Originally posted by Cork
The IRA themselves had little regard for human life - planting bombs in trash cans.

Agreed, but could you answer this - Would you like if the IRA were only all guns & bombs with no talk?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by bus77
Ive seen Militant Nationalism been pointed out as a mark of fascism on Sinn Fein you people seem to forget that Militant Nationalism happens by default if your life is being run by a forign country.

No it doesn’t. Not a Hell of a lot of militant nationalism in Puerto Rico, for example.

And you seem to forget that a sizable proportion (the majority at last count) of people in Northern Ireland would consider us, and not the British, to be the foreigners.

Originally posted by monument
Agreed, but could you answer this - Would you like if the IRA were only all guns & bombs with no talk?

That sounds more like a threat.

bus77

Originally posted by The Corinthian
No it doesn’t. Not a Hell of a lot of militant nationalism in Puerto Rico, for example.

I dont know the history of Puerto Rico, were/are they ruled by a country with the same track record as England over here? And for a similar duration?

Originally posted by The Corinthian
And you seem to forget that a sizable proportion (the majority at last count) of people in Northern Ireland would consider us, and not the British, to be the foreigners.

Thats what caused the problem.

Cork

Originally posted by monument
Agreed, but could you answer this - Would you like if the IRA were only all guns & bombs with no talk?

But they still have their guns & bombs. They are still up to no good.

When you mean "talk" - do you mean thru their political wing?

Bombing was getting the IRA nowhere. The SDLP knew this over 30 years previously.

But it took some others longer to cop onto this.

But in the mean time the IRA (& others) caused much misery.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by bus77
I dont know the history of Puerto Rico, were/are they ruled by a country with the same track record as England over here? And for a similar duration?

Puerto Rico was ruled by number of countries, for about 500 years, including the near extermination of the indigenous population. But that’s kind of immaterial as that’s not you said and now you’re simply trying to qualify your original assertion.

There are numerous geographical territories, with indigenous populations, that are presently under foreign rule; typically French, American, Australian and British. Some were treated appallingly by their colonial masters in the past but now tend to be completely autonomous (with the exception of foreign and defence policy) and are quite happy with their status.

Indeed, as you also tied your assertion into Fascism, you really should have also considered that every Fascist regime was born of an independent state, not a protectorate, commonwealth or territory.

So contrary to your assertion militant nationalism is not going to appear just because of foreign rule.

Thats what caused the problem.

Really, what’s your (final) solution then? :rolleyes:

monument

Yes, thru their political wing.

Of course, it's a threat, although not a threat I'm making - just one that I'm outlining. The ongoing threat of IRA is a part of why the peace process should be got back up and running.

bus77

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Puerto Rico was ruled by number of countries, for about 500 years, including the near extermination of the indigenous population. But that’s kind of immaterial as that’s not you said and now you’re simply trying to qualify your original assertion.

Im sorry I should have made my original assertion more clear. Militant Nationalism happens by default if your life is being run by a forign goverment you hate.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Indeed, as you also tied your assertion into Fascism, you really should have also considered that every Fascist regime was born of an independent state, not a protectorate, commonwealth or territory.

Ireland wasnt an Independant state,(and neither is the north:rolleyes:) Militant Nationalism happend. Was our first goverment a Fascist one?

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Really, what’s your (final) solution then? :rolleyes:

Certainly not a British flag/Government over my head anyway.

arcadegame2004

I strongly resent SF's attempt to convey the impression that it has a monopoly on republicanism. I consider myself a republican but I could not vote for them as long as they are linked to an organisation that killed Detective Garda Jerry McCabe (how the hell did that help the "struggle" for a United Ireland!??!?!), and which has the blood of thousands of innocent, men, women and children, in Ireland and abroad, on its hands.

I do not consider Provisional SF as the heirs of the Old IRA and SF (the War of Independence IRA). The Old IRA in the 1919-21 period did not target innocent civilians. They targeted the army and security forces, and members of the British administration in Ireland. But not women and children and innocent men. The Provos actions were simply mass murder of innocent people, like you and me. For the IRA and SF to portray this as necessary to achieve a United Ireland is a twisting and perverting of the truth, and of republicanism. It is a fascist way of thinking. There is no "bravery" in blowing up a shopping centre and killing scores therein, or of bombing Canary Wharf in 1996 and killing 2 innocent people, who have NOTHING to do with the conflict in NI. It brings republicanism into disrepute, and as such was totally counterproductive to the aims of those (like me) who want a United Ireland, but one achieved through consent. If consent of the population of NI is not achieved first, then a United Ireland would quickly descend into a Israel-Palestine style Civil War which the Irish economy definitely does not need, and that the Irish people do NOT want.

The Provisional IRA has been implicated in the disappearance and possible murder of Gareth O'Callaghan, a Catholic man in South Armagh in NI. How does this contribute to bringing about a United Ireland? It doesn't. How does kneecaping children, or impaling them to fences and throwing paint over them contribute to a United Ireland? It doesn't. Imagine the reaction down here in the Republic if it emerged FF/FG/Labour/PD's were involved in this carry on? It would create a huge political scandal yet if SF do it they get hardly any stick for it from our broadcast-media.

I put the rise of SF partly down to their fundraising in America. Isn't there supposed to be a ban on foreign-donations to political-parties? If so then this law should be enforced. When the last Rainbow Coalition was in power I voted against them in the 1997 General Elections, partly because I considered FG to be too close to the Unionists and too hostile to SF's participation in talks. However, I now think that 6 years after the GFA, during which the potential positive impacts of IRA decommissioning were drowned out by the absurd amount of secrecy surrounding those acts e.g. refusing even to reveal how many weapons of whatever kind were destroyed - how stupid is that??!?!, that it is now time for an Irish Government of whatever political persuasion to start getting tough on SF instead of always giving them the benefit of the doubt.

The failure of SF to gain a seat in the Northwest constituency can be put down to the transfer-repellance that SF emits to the moderate majority of the voters , including me. I can well understand why the NI Unionists are reluctant to enter Govt with them. Yes, it may be partly due to traditional Unionist resistance to Catholic role in government. But by and large, I genuinely believe that instinct within Unionism is in decline, and the DUP's commitment to enterring government with SF after certain steps have been taken would have been seen as earthshaking just a few years ago. It is time for the IRA to now demonstrate with convincing - and TRANSPARENT - acts of completion with respect to decommissioning and disbandment. The Loyalist terrorists should also disband, but then, the electoral support for them is far too small for them to expect to get government posts. It is true to an extent that SF is excluding itself from government by the failure to wind up the IRA, and to reveal information proving this has happened. If, as before, no information is provided to prove that acts of completion have happened, then the doing-so will not convince the Unionists. Nor would it any longer convince me I must admit. And I say that as a constitutional republican who vehementy rejects SF's claim to represent the moderate majority of Republicanism.

In truth, pretty much all of the parties in Dail Eireann aspire to a United Ireland. Anyone of those other than SF has to be better than a party with a terrorist wing that beats teenagers up, or kneecaps them, or impales them.

The Brigadier

Originally posted by daveirl
Wanting England to lose in football doesn't mean you don't like them. Well for me it doesn't. I like to see Kerry lose in GAA, Leinster lose in Rugby. That's called sporting rivalary. It pisses me off rightly when people can't see the distinction.

No but is telling someone not to cheer again or you will kick their ****ing head in rivalry?

How about telling someone "**** your Queen, I hope she dies!"

Whatabout "**** off back to England you english prick and I hope someone from the'RA bombs you!"

All said to me in the last 7 days...

The Brigadier

Originally posted by bus77

Thats what caused the problem.

Are you of Celtic origin then? If so you are invader of Ireland who should leave and go back to Russia.

If you go back far enough who is entitled to live here....like it or not the fact that the majority of people in the north can't trace their family back to Ireland 10,000 years ago does not limit their right to be here.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by bus77
Im sorry I should have made my original assertion more clear. Militant Nationalism happens by default if your life is being run by a forign goverment you hate.

Like in East Timor? They were run by a hated foreign government. Except nationalism there has never been particularly militant.

Would you like to add another qualification to your theory or is it stretched enough as it is?

Ireland wasnt an Indendant state,(and neither is the north:rolleyes:) Militant Nationalism happend. Was our first goverment a Fascist one?

What exactly is your point though, you haven’t exactly contradicted anything I said?

Certainly not a British flag/Government over my head anyway.

You didn’t answer the question. For you that sizable proportion of people in Northern Ireland would consider us, and not the British, to be the foreigners are “what caused the problem”.

Given they appear to be the problem for you what is your solution? Ethnic cleansing?

cdebru

Indeed, as you also tied your assertion into Fascism, you really should have also considered that every Fascist regime was born of an independent state, not a protectorate, commonwealth or territory

all fascist states are either empires or have emperial ambitons
germany
italy
spain

all were empires
also to be a fascist you have to believe that not all people are equal
that there are sub human races
this is the opposite of republicanism
if you look at sinn fein policies there are no rascist policies
as far as i know their main policies would be equality and justice for all

infact in the recent referendum
sinnfein called for a no vote on the basis that any one born in ireland no matter what race religion or sex is entitled to be an irish citizen
hardly the sign of fascists
i think facist is an insult thrown around to easily
people confuse militarism with fascism
you can believe in the right to arm struggle and believe in democracy they are not mutally exclusive

the arguement that voilence is never justified is just pure nonesense
violence can often be justified
and is often unavoidable
but it should be the last resort
not the first answer
but remember this one mans freedom fighter is someone elses terrorist
and its usually the winner that eventually determines which you are

The Corinthian

Originally posted by cdebru
all fascist states are either empires or have emperial ambitons
germany
italy
spain

all were empires

And Chile?

also to be a fascist you have to believe that not all people are equal
that there are sub human races

Actually, German Fascism was the only form of Fascism that promoted that view. Independent of German control, none of the other Fascist movements were race based.

the arguement that voilence is never justified is just pure nonsense

It is never justified in a democracy.

bus77

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Are you of Celtic origin then? If so you are invader of Ireland who should leave and go back to Russia.

If you go back far enough who is entitled to live here....like it or not the fact that the majority of people in the north can't trace their family back to Ireland 10,000 years ago does not limit their right to be here.

Lisntin, Im not sure what Nationalism is, all I know is that England sunk half the Argintine navy because they tried to hoist their flag over "British" land and British people.
Thats Nationalism.
When you open your English history book you see lots of differnt fights with lots of differnt Goverments. All we see is one long relationship with England and English government. Eight hundred years of pissing on nearly every Irish person that came before me and the forced destruction of what little independant culture we had.

We are only 50 or so years independant in the Republic. It's 50 years since WW2 and Racist stuff still comes out about the Germans every time ther'es a footbal match.
But not to the same extent as it comes out in Irish people because it's just another page in your history to you and it could be said you won fully.
Not one piece of England is still under German control.

Tell me, what sort of stuff would English people come out with If your country was ruled by Germany for Eight hundred years. If they brougth the holocaust with them, not in 5 years but spred out over 800.

Now picture an Independent England, but a Swastica is still flying over Coventry.

cdebru

It is never justified in a democracy.

of course you would have to believe that you live in a real democracy
and preuming you had taken up arms obviuosly you would not believe that you were in a democracy

as to chile
no really a facist state
more a right wing military dictartorship
although they would have a lot in common it is not the same thing
facism and nazism are based on racism the believe that one particular race or nationality is superior to all others
sinn fein do not profess that view that irish people are in any way superior to any other race in the world
to suggest that spain and italy were not racist takes a bit of a brass neck
they may not have taken their anti semetic policies as far as the nazis
but they definitely viewed the people under their control in their colonies as less than human
in fact to have a colony one must believe in the superiorty of one set of people over another that is the essence of facism
the other stuff like freedom of the press
suppresion of opponents
violence
can equally be enforced by right wing and left wing goverments




winston churchill definitely had fascists views as is witnessed in his atitude to kurds arabs indians irish etc
it was not any great love of the polish people that drove britain to war

cdebru

my basic point is that you can criticise sinn fein for many things
and i would agree with quiet a few of them
but the nazi facist thing just does not fit

it is an insult that is thrown to easily and ends up devaluing the insult

i dont know if i would trust sinn fein to be open and transparent in goverment
to not try and suppress opposition
but that is not fascist
it is just un democratic the question should really be do you believe that sinn fein is completely democratic
no
but i dont believe that fianna fail
or fine gael is either

Cork

Originally posted by monument
Yes, thru their political wing.

Of course, it's a threat, although not a threat I'm making - just one that I'm outlining. The ongoing threat of IRA is a part of why the peace process should be got back up and running.

The Peace Process needs to be got back on track.The IRA has only devided the people in NI and its continued existance is an insult to democrats and only causes mis-trust among communities in NI.

Weapons held by the IRA should not be used as bargaining chips. Punishment beatings and rackeering needs to stop immediately.

Both governments need to ensure that the IRA is no longer a threat to either this state or any citizen who lives within it,

bus77

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Like in East Timor? They were run by a hated foreign government. Except nationalism there has never been particularly militant.

Well it was allways pretty Militant here. Irish people tried to get support/guns/troops from damn near every country in Europe over the years. Are you forgeting about all this stuff

Originally posted by The Corinthian
What exactly is your point though, you haven’t exactly contradicted anything I said?

Yes I did. What your basicly saying is Sinn Fein was/is into Militant Nationalism for no reason, that hatred for a forign goverment has nothing got to do with it and they are just "Facist".

"You didn’t answer the question. For you that sizable proportion of people in Northern Ireland would consider us, and not the British, to be the foreigners are “what caused the problem”.[/B]

You didnt ask a question, and your not asking a question now. Should Irish people accept the rule of Britain because the majority of British agree? Maybe they should all just go down south?

Given they appear to be the problem for you what is your solution? Ethnic cleansing? [/B]

No, I didnt say they "are" the problem, I said that fact IS the problem. These Nazi theorys are going to your head

earwicker

I have a hard time understanding so many points of view expressed in this thread.

To those who "hate" England: surely it is possible to see what they have done wrong in the past without hating them now. Think hard about what the British policy towards NI is currently (read the GFA if you want a place to start). Unionist fear is what's keeping them attached. I'm really not sure they are arsed keeping it.

To those who are hyper-critical of SF: would you rather they stopped trying altogether? If so, then what chance have you for getting the IRA to abandon the semtex? If the British Army (and MI-5/6) gave up on trying to defeat them, who do you expect to do it? (Unless you believe they were actually running the IRA, an allegation made by some former double agents, and a whole other can of wriggly worms.) The Gardai? The FCA? Johnny "Mad Dog" Adair? Dubya? Nato? Rapid Reaction Force?

If what you really mean is "try harder" then how about you try and say that instead? Hyper-criticism without anything to offer other than party sloganeering is in very bad taste and cynical in the extreme.

To those who 'bots who continually chant FF's recent characterization of SF: do you realize how much you sound like Unionists? The Republican Party never bled so red, white and blue.

To those starting to "hate" Ireland because of a few uneducated fools: you're starting to look in a mirror.

To those who uncritically support the IRA now: try politics.

I'll stop now.

Cork

Originally posted by earwicker
IThe Republican Party never bled so red, white and blue.

FF has not a chip on their sholder about the British.

The future of NI will be determined by those who live there.

That is accepted.

Getting involved in tribal atitudes about a european neighbour is old fashioned and pretty backward.

The British pump 10 billion into the ecomomy of NI. The politics of NI has got to get out of a tribal narrow minded and bigoted prespective.

Leaders up there should look at the foresight and vision of John Hume.

earwicker

Originally posted by Cork
FF has not a chip on their sholder about the British.

The future of NI will be determined by those who live there.

That is accepted.

Getting involved in tribal atitudes about a european neighbour is old fashioned and pretty backward.

So apart from a bland reference to Hume and a woolly reference to the future of NI, what do you suggest? And I mean positive, focused, concrete suggestions. I'm all ears. What would you say to the likes of Paisley and his followers who want to tear the treacherous GFA document up? I think he'd see such bland statements as the utterings of the UUP.

<edit because of my crappy spellings>

The Corinthian

Originally posted by cdebru
of course you would have to believe that you live in a real democracy
and preuming you had taken up arms obviuosly you would not believe that you were in a democracy

That’s a bit of a cop out, isn’t it? Not to mention a circular argument:

“Violence is wrong in a democracy, but given we’re using violence, it mustent be one after all”

Right :rolleyes:

as to chile
no really a facist state
more a right wing military dictartorship
although they would have a lot in common it is not the same thing

You’re being rather generous to yourself with definitions, but let’s let it slide. How about Franco Tudjman, a self-confessed “follower of Franco” in Croatia?

Even then, it’s nonetheless nonsensical to assume that a nation cannot adopt a Fascist regime simply based upon an absence an imperial past or aspiration, as it would not explain imperial powers that did not have Fascist regimes or non-imperial powers that did or tried to.

It would be more correct that many of them had irredentism in common - as does SF.

to suggest that spain and italy were not racist takes a bit of a brass neck
they may not have taken their anti semetic policies as far as the nazis
but they definitely viewed the people under their control in their colonies as less than human

Just like all the ‘liberal democracies’ of the time. Or did blacks ride at the back of the bus in Alabama just because they preferred it that way?

As a matter of fact, race segregation was common practice before 1950 in colonial Africa, but was often implemented differently. When the British ‘liberated’ the Somalis from Fascist Italian rule, they also banned them from the use of ‘white only’ public pathways and cinemas, which those nasty racist Fascists did not. Go figure.

in fact to have a colony one must believe in the superiorty of one set of people over another that is the essence of facism

Yet race as a qualification of nation appeared in the writings and philosophies of only one Fascist regime, and was no more prevalent or legislated for in all the other Fascist regimes as it was in liberal democracies. So what is this argument of yours based on?

winston churchill definitely had fascists views as is witnessed in his atitude to kurds arabs indians irish etc

Churchill may have been a racist and authoritarian, but to call him Fascist would be a stretch.

The problem here is that you equate racism with Fascism, and you can’t set a definition based upon one case, especially if it appears to be the exception rather than the rule.

And as an extension of your argument, then if SF is not racist, it cannot be Fascist – but if you’re wrong about racism being an essential tenet of Fascism, where does that leave the rest of your argument?

Originally posted by bus77
Yes I did. What your basicly saying is Sinn Fein was/is into Militant Nationalism for no reason, that hatred for a forign goverment has nothing got to do with it and they are just "Facist".

I never said there was no reason, but I did question the justification. And I never said they were “just Fascist”. Read back over my previous posts.

You didnt ask a question, and your not asking a question now. Should Irish people accept the rule of Britain because the majority of British agree? Maybe they should all just go down south?

I asked what was your (final) solution? Should the Northern Irish accept the rule of Britain because the majority of Northern Irish agree? Absolutely.

No, I didnt say they "are" the problem, I said that fact IS the problem. These Nazi theorys are going to your head

No, your misuse of the English language. I pointed out that a sizable proportion of people in Northern Ireland would consider us, and not the British, to be the foreigners and you responded that this is what caused the problem. In response to my point I can’t really see ‘this’ to refer to anything other than that ‘sizable proportion of people in Northern Ireland’, can you?

And you still seem to be dodging the issue of what to do with that ‘sizable proportion of people in Northern Ireland’? Send them to live in Madagascar?

Cork

Originally posted by earwicker
What would you say to the likes of Paisley and his followers who want to tear the treacherous GFA document up? I think he'd see such bland statements as the utterings of the UUP.

<edit because of my crappy spellings>

I would tell all partys that the GFA needs full implementation.

There is no room for any illegal armys, kangaroo courts or rackereering.

All partys have to work together. SF has to recognise that the IRA needs disbandment + the DUP has to work with SF.

bus77

Originally posted by The Corinthian
And you still seem to be dodging the issue of what to do with that ‘sizable proportion of people in Northern Ireland’? Send them to live in Madagascar?

Ofcourse Im dodging the issue, I dont have a solution to any of these issues. Only time will sort this stuff out.
All I know is, If I was Irish up north I would never accept English rule. Throw in a bit of 70/80's unemployment and I dont know what Id be doin. I would'nt really care what the majority of British settlers said tbo. Their people wernt ****ed up the ass since time began.

Cork

Originally posted by bus77
Ofcourse Im dodging the issue, I dont have a solution to any of these issues. Only time will sort this stuff out.
All I know is, If I was Irish up north I would never accept English rule. Throw in a bit of 70/80's unemployment and I dont know what Id be doin. I would'nt really care what the majority of British settlers said tbo. Their people wernt ****ed up the ass since time began.

And what did violence achiece only misery.

SF now accept partition. The state of NI will exist so long as the majority living up there want it. The GFA is an international agreement.

Let us not forget the many victims to 30 years of violence that achieved nothing.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by bus77
Ofcourse Im dodging the issue, I dont have a solution to any of these issues. Only time will sort this stuff out.

Given the rest of your post I suspect you would have a solution, but not one you’re willing to share with us.

All I know is, If I was Irish up north I would never accept English rule. Throw in a bit of 70/80's unemployment and I dont know what Id be doin. I would'nt really care what the majority of British settlers said tbo.

Thus by your own admission you're disinterested in what a sizable proportion of people in Northern Ireland think, based upon their ancestry.

I think it’s clear how anti-racism you are now.