Sinn fein- the new nazi party?

ecksor

I think he wants rhetorical answers?

The Brigadier

I just don't feel the need for name calling.

Boston

Originally posted by dark_knight_ire
But think about this sinn feins members come from the ranks of the IRA not all of them but they fund each other.

In the south I'd there say its the other way around sinn fein yought was/is a very good recruitor of young IRA member, Quiet a few lads I knew got involved that way.

Mighty_Mouse

Is Mighty Mouse some sort of racist with a gripe against English people?

If you don't mind I would like to answer this one. Ans: NO Out of curiousity where did you deduce this from?

The general point I was trying to make here is that it is usually republicans who are accused of been "narrow-minded" "brain-washed" "extremists", "vile" "hate-filled", "racists" "predictable" "repetitive" etc etc But the irony in the whole thing is that most rational people would be able to say similar with regard to the anti-republicans in here.

The Brigadier

Who is anti-republican? I'm certainly not. I have no problem with Fianna Fail supporters (The Republican Party) but then they don't show contempt for the law and the people of Ireland.

Where did I deduce your dislike of English people? Well most recently when you decided to call me Brigadier General, bus77 pointed this out to be a reference to the Houses of Parliament. (I assume since you did not correct this, that it was correct)

I get a feeling of resentment from you towards England and English people - something which is certainly not unusual from supporters of Sinn Fein / IRA

Phil_321

Sinn Fein might be good at running a private army but God help us if they ever end up running the country(fat fooking chance;)).
What's all this nonsense about "building an Ireland of equals"? Do they mean everyone will have an equal chance of getting kneecapped or tortured?

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by The Brigadier
3. Is Mighty Mouse some sort of racist with a gripe against English people?

These questions are rhetorical and don't need to be answererd.

As far as I can tell, he has no problem with the modern English people, but the consecutive monarchs and governments that have ruled England from 800 years ago to today.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by The Brigadier
I get a feeling of resentment from you towards England and English people - something which is certainly not unusual from supporters of Sinn Fein / IRA

What are you? A member of the DUP? Even the UUP don't usually use the term "Sinn Féin / IRA", while the DUP do at every chance. You sound like an anti-Republican to me. Fianna Fáil have twisted the definition of Republicanism to suit their own ends, so I believe their title "The Republican Party" makes no sense.

Nobody uses terms like "PUP / UVF", "UDP / UDA", "RSF / RIRA" or "32CSM / CIRA" so why constantly use "Sinn Féin / IRA"? We've already established the fact that links are present, so why keep pushing on it?

Sinn Féin are a political party, and a popular political party at that. Face reality. They're pro-Agreement and are one of the foundations of the Peace Process. "Oh but they have links to the IRA!!" So what? Everyone has links to some form of criminal activity in one way or another. Doesn't necessarily mean that Sinn Féin go out when they're not in suits and ties and shoot people. What's that I hear? Ten-year-long ceasefire? Thought so.

Republicanism, Nationalism and Socialism have nothing to do with Nazism. Socialism is Left, while Nazism (which is Facist) is Right.

Nazism grew out of Supra-nationalism, the idea of the "super race" which is present in all forms of Facism. Hitler used it in his borrowed ideas of the Aryan race and Mussolini used it by saying that Italians are decendants of the great Roman Empire and so should rule the world.

Sinn Féin said nothing about we Irish being the greatest race in the world, unless I missed something.

Nazism and Facism support private enterprise, while Socialism and Communism frown upon it.

So I fail to see how Nationalism and Socialism can combine to form Nazism. Hitler was a Socialist for a while, but then became Facist. So, the term "National Socialism" was actually quite incorrect, and merely adds to the long list of paradoxes and contradictions riddles throughout his life.

bus77

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Who is anti-republican? I'm certainly not. I have no problem with Fianna Fail supporters (The Republican Party) but then they don't show contempt for the law and the people of Ireland.

Where did I deduce your dislike of English people? Well most recently when you decided to call me Brigadier General, bus77 pointed this out to be a reference to the Houses of Parliament. (I assume since you did not correct this, that it was correct)

I get a feeling of resentment from you towards England and English people - something which is certainly not unusual from supporters of Sinn Fein / IRA

No its just that you are English and you apeared to be cheering for anti republican statements like the fellas in the houses of parlament (they cheer no matter whats said). Its damn annoying thats all.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by Sleepy
Sinn Fein aren't a legitimate force in Irish politics. They are a front for murdering scumbags. They are too dumb to understand that socialism died with the fall of the Berlin wall. They use propoganda instead of policies. They mobilize the ignorant and poor, dngling pipe-dreams in front of them without even *hinting* at any means of achieving these dreams.

Until Sinn Fein give up socialism, learn to behave like human beings instead of animals locked in blood feuds (which, let's face it is all the north is about these days), come up with policies instead of daydreams and stop idolising idiots (and lets face it , anyone who kills themselves over their clothes is a bit thick really) they won't be a legitimate political party.

Actually, COMMUNISM died with the fall of the Berlin wall, and still not completely. North Korea is still Communist. Cuba is still Communist. And so on..

Until they learn to give up Socialism? You're the one who's sounding like a Nazi now. That's how Hitler was: "become a Socialist and I get the SS to shoot you." Better Socialist than Facist. The north is not "about blood feuds", although some people seem to use religion as an excuse to kill people.

So you have no pity towards the hunger strikers whatsoever? They gave their lives for living improvements for the people. It's easy to kill for a cause, but to die for one takes courage. They're a legitimate political party already. Sinn Féin have been a legitimate political party since they were established all those decades ago.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by bus77
No its just that you are English and you apeared to be cheering for anti republican statements like the fellas in the houses of parlament (they cheer no matter whats said). Its damn annoying thats all.

He's English? Ugh, that explains it. Don't suppose The Brigadier's name is actually John, is it? :rolleyes:

earwicker

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
He's English? Ugh, that explains it. Don't suppose The Brigadier's name is actually John, is it? :rolleyes:

Ah, David, could you not have phrased that better? I'm sure your "ugh" is not disgust at his purported "Englishness" is it?

arcadegame2004

Well I will never vote for them that's for sure. Not unless they make an extraordinary transition from a terrorist-linked party with far-left ideas including raising your-taxes and those of business, to an economically and socially liberal party espousing ideals of privatisation, competition, and low taxes.

Regarding the comparison of SF with the Nazis, even I think that's something of an exaggeration. But their armed-wing, the Provos, have the blood of many hundreds of innocent men, women and children on their hands, and not just in the North or the UK.

The Nazi Party actually grew out of a party (German Workers Party) that was originally both extremely nationalistic and socialistic. But when Hitler came to power, he ditched his left-wing policies in favour of capitalism, which helped his party get donations from wealthy businesspeople. In reaction to this, the SA (the Nazi Party's private army) became angry and its leaders, include Ernst Rohm, may have planned a coup against Hitler. Hitler had the SA leaders killed in what is known as "The Night of the Long Knives". The name "National Socialist" (from which the term Nazi is derived) was retained, but its meaning had now changed to extremely nationalistic.

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

David-[RLD]-

Originally posted by earwicker
Ah, David, could you not have phrased that better? I'm sure your "ugh" is not disgust at his purported "Englishness" is it?

It was more of an "oh, I should have guessed" summed up into three letters.

earwicker

Originally posted by Mercury_Tilt
hmmm

Mercury_Tilt: if you lean to the left, do you explode?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
Fianna Fáil have twisted the definition of Republicanism to suit their own ends, so I believe their title "The Republican Party" makes no sense.

republicanism: the political orientation of those who hold that a republic is the best form of government.

In what way have Fianna Fáil twisted this definition? In what way does their slogan make no sense?

David-[RLD]-

There is and always has been a difference between common "republicanism" (i.e. the American Republican Party) and Irish Republicanism.

Sleepy

Originally posted by Marq
Sleepy, why should a party give up Socialism? Is there any reason other than that you patently don't agree with it? I don't agree with Sinn Féin's brand of socialism either, but if people vote for them, then that socialism is legitimate as far as those voters are concerned. I don't understand your post.

And tbh, I think that anything that mobilises the ignorant and poor is a good thing. Just because Sinn Féin are the cause of their interest in politics, doesn't mean that their enfranchisement is a bad thing.

I don't believe the ignorant deserve a vote tbh. If you can't grasp the basics of economics, you shouldn't be allowed vote. And before someone has a go at my "elitism", I don't see an understanding of economics/government as something reserved for the rich. It's something that should be taught in school. We have free second level education and an almost free 3rd level system so if you can't be arsed learning about how a country should be run, why should you have a say in running it? Socialism is Socialism is Socialism. It's centralised planning of a countries economy. This leads to economic depression, terrible social services and disaster in general.

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
I hope someone doesnt have to give up socialism to be a human being;)

ooh, wordplay, now there's something we don't see enough of from Shinners :rolleyes:

Yes, those who died on hunger strike are the thick, ignorant ones!:dunno:

Can you name something smart about dying over your preference for civilian clothing? I can't, it was blatant martyrdom for the sake of a cause that is impossible to achieve without legitimising genocide or dooming this country to another civil war. A united Ireland CANNOT be attained. The British WANT to dump Northern Ireland on us. It would devestate our economy as the Unionists would become the underdog and we'd see even more violence up north and then the International community would come in cut the country up again. And then the next time and the time after that until either all the unionists were killed or fled their homes or you people finally got sense and realised that the only solution to this problem is pretty much the status quo: Northern ireland as an independant, commonwealth state. And if you're prepared to die for the sake of getting rid of the commonwealth connections, just shoot yourself now and save the British Army the bullet because you're a moron.

ecksor

Haha Merc.

Is it not reasonable to invoke Godwin's law for the entire forum as a result of this thread being created?

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

Sleepy

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
Nobody uses terms like "PUP / UVF", "UDP / UDA", "RSF / RIRA" or "32CSM / CIRA" so why constantly use "Sinn Féin / IRA"? We've already established the fact that links are present, so why keep pushing on it?

When the same men are known to be the heads of both organisations I think it's perfectly reasonable.

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
Actually, COMMUNISM died with the fall of the Berlin wall, and still not completely. North Korea is still Communist. Cuba is still Communist. And so on..

Until they learn to give up Socialism? You're the one who's sounding like a Nazi now. That's how Hitler was: "become a Socialist and I get the SS to shoot you." Better Socialist than Facist. The north is not "about blood feuds", although some people seem to use religion as an excuse to kill people.

So you have no pity towards the hunger strikers whatsoever? They gave their lives for living improvements for the people. It's easy to kill for a cause, but to die for one takes courage. They're a legitimate political party already. Sinn Féin have been a legitimate political party since they were established all those decades ago.

Yes, North Korea & Cuba, such shining lights of political freedom and societel wellbeing:rolleyes:

Socialism is naieveté applied to the government of countries instead of the sensible application of the economic tools to build a modern society.

The majority of killings in the north over the last 40 years have been revenge attacks, turf wars and personal vendettas. Don't try to dress it up as anything more than it was: mass murder.

Pity for convicted criminals that are stupid enough to kill themselves? Not really. Do you feel sorry for suicide bombers? I suppose a case can be made for sympathising with their ignorance and being sorry that they knew no better but that's about the height of it really.

Xterminator

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
........... Everyone has links to some form of criminal activity in one way or another. Doesn't necessarily mean that Sinn Féin go out when they're not in suits and ties and shoot people. What's that I hear? Ten-year-long ceasefire? Thought so.
.

David

I am a bit dumbfounded by your assesment that everbody has links to criminal activity.I can only think that you belive it is normal, but that does not make it so.
Your statment is another baseless assertment, one in a stream from the propaganda machine which you have also not dismantled.

As for you 10 year ceasefire, the paramilitiary activity have not ceased.

Punishment beatings, People being chased from where they live by IRA/SF's mandate etc. Regardless of the supposed crimes of the indivuals, they have the right to trial by their peers. Only the garda have the right to detain these indivuals.

These are just some of the activites i belive Sinn Fein activists are involved in/complict in when they have taken off their campaign suits!

Also, when will all the IRA weapons be answered for? How many have 'fallen' into the hands of armed criminals? how many have been 'retrieved' by so called radical republicans? Funny how since the ceasfire(s) the no's of guns on the streets has rapidly increased. I suppose though if you use some of youre funds to buy all your trained killers taxi licences, etc they will never cause any trouble again eh?

X

ziggy sawdust

In the recent local elections, I was very disappointed to hear chants of "Up the 'RA, up the 'RA" upon the election of a Sinn Fein Councillor to a seat.

I really had hoped that the active supporters of the party might have moved up a peg from this sort of backward and frankly pathetic chant.

Oh well......

The Corinthian

Originally posted by earwicker
Of course, the only way to actually prove the original poster's contention if you agree with him would be to go through the Nazi party literature and compare it carefully with the SF discussion documents, point by point, policy by policy, and build your case.

Not really. We can say that the two are broadly similar on many points with regard to the use of violence as a legitimate tool of politics, State interference (or even planning; this is often unclear in the different Fascist regimes or Sinn Fein’s own literature) in the market and the ideal of the nation as the ultimate rally point or focus of the citizen. Add to this many trappings, such as the employment of paramilitary groups and the setting aside of one ethnic group against another, living in the same location.

However, to go as far as to say that Sinn Fein is a Nazi party would be unfair and frankly too specific to prove. Nonetheless there is certainly enough there without having to dig too deeply to say that Sinn Fein’s ideology would be more akin to the Fascist family of movements than any Socialist-communist ones.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-
There is and always has been a difference between common "republicanism" (i.e. the American Republican Party) and Irish Republicanism.

So, define Irish Republicanism for me, and explain how Fianna Fáil have twisted it and why it makes no sense.

I trust that you're going to give me authoritative sources for your definitions rather than simply telling me what you believe they mean.

earwicker

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Not really. We can say that the two are broadly similar on many points with regard to the use of violence as a legitimate tool of politics, State interference (or even planning; this is often unclear in the different Fascist regimes or Sinn Fein’s own literature) in the market and the ideal of the nation as the ultimate rally point or focus of the citizen. Add to this many trappings, such as the employment of paramilitary groups and the setting aside of one ethnic group against another, living in the same location.

However, to go as far as to say that Sinn Fein is a Nazi party would be unfair and frankly too specific to prove. Nonetheless there is certainly enough there without having to dig too deeply to say that Sinn Fein’s ideology would be more akin to the Fascist family of movements than any Socialist-communist ones.

A few minor quibbles:

Are you saying that SF are not committed to the GFA and all that it entails? I note that a lot of their bumf states that they are. You'd probably agree that "lefties" have also advocated the use of violence as a political tool as well?

Surely you'd accept that State intervention in the market is not the sole preserve of Fascism?

I don't have much to dispute in your mention of the nation as a rallying point (and consequent mistrust of Europe). The simple one-to-one of Nazism and SF is, as you say, somewhat misguided. The Nazi "25 points" has a much more restrictive idea of who can belong to the German State. If you were to do a quick run-through of the SF literature, you'd find what seems to this reader at least be a definite "lefty" approach to questions and issues concerning immigration and residency.

AngelofFire

Ive never seen so much tripe in my life. Will the sinn fein bashing please stop. Im no sinn feiner nor am i a big fan of republicanism. But i gave one of the sinn fein candidates in my area a high preference because he had a proven track record and a done a lot of work in my community.I accept that much of their vote was one of protest but at least they care about the plight of ordinary people.

Sinn fein if anything are the polar opposite of nazism. SF are left wing and libretarian whilst facism is right wing and authoritarian www.politicalcompass.org.The closet thing we have ever had to a facist party in this country is Fine Gael, who merged with the blueshirt movement to become the party they are today.F.G have been the country`s traditonal Right wing party, they have supported polices like european militarisation and the power of the state to restrict civil liberties. BTW im not FG bashing just stating a few facts.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by earwicker
Are you saying that SF are not committed to the GFA and all that it entails? I note that a lot of their bumf states that they are.

Of course they do, but they’ve never rejected the concept of violence as a legitimate political tool either. If anything the struggle has been romanticised in much the same way that Fascism romanticised the March on Rome or the Munich Punch.

You'd probably agree that "lefties" have also advocated the use of violence as a political tool as well?

Indeed, but I would not have made that comparison based upon only the one or two similarities.

Surely you'd accept that State intervention in the market is not the sole preserve of Fascism?

Again, I would not have made that comparison based upon only the one or two similarities.

In addition, Fascism and Socialism-Communism have strong similarities - John Maynard Keynes, who’s economic philosophy is the basis of the modern welfare state also happened to be a big fan of the Third Reich’s economic policies too, for example.

I don't have much to dispute in your mention of the nation as a rallying point (and consequent mistrust of Europe).

The simple one-to-one of Nazism and SF is, as you say, somewhat misguided. The Nazi "25 points" has a much more restrictive idea of who can belong to the German State.

I don’t think SF is racialist, at least consciously, and this was a fairly fundamental principle of German National Socialism, so a specific comparison would not really hold. However, racialism in Nazi ideology was pretty much unique amongst the other Fascist movements (that were not puppet or satellite states of the Third Reich, that is), so it doesn’t really affect a comparison to Fascism in general.

If you were to do a quick run-through of the SF literature, you'd find what seems to this reader at least be a definite "lefty" approach to questions and issues concerning immigration and residency.

You’ll get similar "lefty" approaches within most Fascist ideologies as they tend consider the nation to be a cultural rather than racial concepts - judging a man by the colour of his shirt rather than the colour of his skin, as it were.

arcadegame2004

Sinn fein if anything are the polar opposite of nazism. SF are left wing and libretarian whilst facism is right wing and authoritarian www.politicalcompass.org.The closet thing we have ever had to a facist party in this country is Fine Gael, who merged with the blueshirt movement to become the party they are today.F.G have been the country`s traditonal Right wing party, they have supported polices like european militarisation and the power of the state to restrict civil liberties. BTW im not FG bashing just stating a few facts.

Authoritarianism is certainly not the preserve of the Right. Look at Stalin for example. a Left-Wing tyrant responsible for the deaths of up to 40 million of the Soviet people. Or Mao Zedong, who reportedly worked 100 million people to death in his so-called "Great Leap Forward" agricultural collectivisation program. He killed far more people even than Hitler. There was a big rumpus when Joerg Haider's Freedom Party (Far-Right) was let into a coalition government in Austria but not a whimper when Communists became junior partners in the French Socialist Government of 1997-2002. Hypocrisy.

I accept that the first FG (or Cumman na nGael as they were then called) Government were quite conservative in economic-policy, e.g. reducing social-welfare. But comparing them to fascism is just over the top. The merger that became Fine Gael was not just between Cumman na nGael and the Blueshirts. A party called the Centre Party was also part of the merger. I personally feel that the Blueshirts were more of an anti-FF movement than a fascist one, with the possible exception of their leader. I consider FG to be a centrist-party, like FF but perhaps much less corrupt. Like FF they adopt the policies of their junior coalition partners to a certain extent. That is why the FF-PD government has been more centre-right than any government since Cosgrave (1922-32) and I am glad it has been, though I lament the fact that FF, strengthened by winning 81 seats in 2002, has been far less keen on PD policies like lower taxes and privatising of semi-states, this time around. They were re-elected when they followed such policies from 1997-02. Maybe Mary Harney is right about the loss of support being linked to an incapacity to take important decisions.