Sinn fein- the new nazi party?

earwicker

Originally posted by The Corinthian

<snip>

I'm not entirely sure about what you're getting at in your post, but it's obvious that we don't agree, so let's agree to disagree, shall we?

Sand

Its clear that the SF bear more than a passing resemblance to the Nazis in terms of the general policies, attitudes, paramilitary connections. Hell, if they even rise to power in Ireland, itll be for the same reasons the Nazis gained power in Germany - a populace disillusioned with mainstream politics looking for some messanic type saviors to lead them to the promised land. The Corninthian has already identified many the similarities, and Mike 65 went to some bother getting links in a previous thread identifying the Nazis policies as socialist/left wing. The people who refuse to accept the reality that Nazism was left wing should really do a search on Mikes posts and educate themselves, tbh.

What's all this nonsense about "building an Ireland of equals"? Do they mean everyone will have an equal chance of getting kneecapped or tortured?

Ah here now - theyre only bringing the power back to the people. Sure, we dont need to work with the PSNI or try to give them any legitimacy in SF/IRA areas in the north - that might work to undermine the IRA mafias that rule the roost in those estates now wouldnt it? Hey, with a bit of luck theyll bring the policing polices down to Dublin as well. Why arrest scumbags when you can give them balaclavas, enlist them in the IRA and turn them loose in the city?

So you have no pity towards the hunger strikers whatsoever? They gave their lives for living improvements for the people. It's easy to kill for a cause, but to die for one takes courage.

Garbage - They didnt give their lives for a cause, they joined a terrorist organisation and murdered for a cause. They went on hunger strike purely because if they didnt *demand* POW status they might, just might have to examine whether their murderous campaign was simple a killing spree by a gang of a murderers. It was purely selfish vanity on their part, so they could continue the fantasy of pretending they were soldiers.

Id have almost agreed with them being treated as POWs so they could have been tried for war crimes and executed like the Nazi leadership.

But sure, if they want to die for their cause Ill back them 100%. Theres some high cliffs they can run off and rot at the bottom of for all I care. Ireland will be a better place for their loss.

monument

Originally posted by The Brigadier
Cue Monument, Mighty Mouse irish1 and the other shinners asking you to prove that.

:rolleyes:

Could you possable stop calling me a "shinner"? (thanks)

Originally posted by Marq
I think it's somewhat assertive to say that most sinn féiners would have no idea how to run a country

On that point, they're just like Fianna Fail.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by AngelofFire
Sinn fein if anything are the polar opposite of nazism.

Seeing you quoted that site you probably should have read it properly:

The chart also makes clear that, despite popular perceptions, the opposite of fascism is not communism but anarchism (ie liberal socialism), and that the opposite of communism ( i.e. an entirely state-planned economy) is neo-liberalism (i.e. extreme deregulated economy)

Are SF anarchists then?

AngelofFire

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
Authoritarianism is certainly not the preserve of the Right.

I agree with you and i refute any claims that it is. We have many libretarian right wing parties such as the PDs and the libreterian party in america.But i also refute claims that any socialist movement is akin to authoritarian communist and facist regiemes such as ones in china,germany,italy and russia. I was trying to say that comparisons between sinn fein and facsim on the grounds of them calling for state regulation of the market is invalid as socially they are polar opposites and often quite different economically. Under facist regiemes in italy and germany there was little or no change in the distribution of the wealth.

sceptre

Originally posted by The Corinthian
In addition, Fascism and Socialism-Communism have strong similarities - John Maynard Keynes, who’s economic philosophy is the basis of the modern welfare state also happened to be a big fan of the Third Reich’s economic policies too, for example.

To be fair, despite what Lewellyn Rockwell would like us to believe (meanwhile Ralph Raico reckons Keynes was a Red), it's more correct to say that Hitler was a big fan of Keynes than the reverse. Like that FDR bloke. You could argue more sensibly that Keynes admired the German economic output due in part to the employment of his ideas. The introduction to the German edition of The General Theory merely said that Keynes' (original) theory of output was more easily adapted to conditions in a totalitarian state than under laissez-faire conditions. Which, examining the model, it was. I'm sure there were plenty of Keynesians who appreciated the deficits run during German depression and regarded it as vindication of their views[1]. Which in itself it wasn't of course - the early general theory really only applies during a time of depression. This is the bit the Friedmanites tried to apply in an actual general sense of course with their wacky ideas about money velocity. Even Keynes wasn't nutty enough to sugest that as viable (hence the intro). Still, you can regard it as Keynes' Chile (if you don't want to use the US) if you please.

[1]George Garvy's written some interesting papers about this. To be taken with a grain of salt as he does like putting the cart before the horse but interesting nonetheless

monument

Originally posted by AngelofFire
I agree with you and i refute any claims that it is. We have many libretarian right wing parties such as the PDs and the libreterian party in america.

If you're still going on the Political Compass' image, the PD are not social-libertarian (which is what the 'libertarian' that is here (same link as above):

...However, they are economic-libertarian, which on the Political Compass image is right wing.

gaelic cowboy

Originally posted by Agent Orange
Mary Lou was easily the most attractive looking of the EU candidates. No wonder she won.

The fact her party is made up of and affiliated with child-murdering psychopaths is a tad worrying however.

If you want to vote for a republican party then vote for a proper republican party - even Fianna Fail. At least they don't kill people.

Interesting how she used to be Fianna Fail member and even was asked to stand in the last general election by them. She jumped ship and became Sinn Fein the two parties are blood brothers and they probally can't wait to get into bed together. If any of you even give a feck about democracy dont vote SF or FF ever.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by earwicker
I'm not entirely sure about what you're getting at in your post, but it's obvious that we don't agree, so let's agree to disagree, shall we?

We didn't disagree on everything, but if that is what your wish, so be it.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by monument
If you're still going on the Political Compass' image, the PD are not social-libertarian (which is what the 'libertarian' that is here (same link as above):

...However, they are economic-libertarian, which on the Political Compass image is right wing.

Sorry that was an error on my behalf, i initially meant to say economic libretarian

Marq

Originally posted by Sleepy
I don't believe the ignorant deserve a vote

I suppose to enforce this we'll just let you go around and decide who's ignorant?

It's something that should be taught in school. We have free second level education and an almost free 3rd level system so if you can't be arsed learning about how a country should be run, why should you have a say in running it?

Good idea, yes, only let politics students vote. You'd be screwed then Sleepy - they're all lefties.

On a more serious note, it's not enough to say that the education is there and it's free, and if people don't use it it's their own fault. There are many factors that contribute to poverty and lack of education: If you have to work to help feed your family it's highly unlikely you'll be finishing out second level education, let alone going to college. The same factors contribute to people feeling disenfranchised. We should be tackling those problems, not disenfranchising these people further.

swiss

This thread is veering quite off topic. Just a few points.

Firstly, the amount of bickering and name calling in this thread is rising. I think we can do without the snide sideswipes towards other posters. Merc, if you have a problem with how we moderate this thread then either take it to Feedback or PM one of us. If you have a problem with a specific post then by all means report it. Veering off topic by accusing another poster of going off topic and baiting and then exlaiming "for shame" is just hypocritical. The fact that you were aware of this doesn't make it any less so.

Secondly when this thread was opened my initial reaction was firstly that Goodwins law would be shortly invoked, and also the point that The Corinthian raised, about Nationalism and Socialism being (in theory) two of SF's core principles. However, the term Nazi, as I'm sure all of you are aware, invokes more than just their social and economic doctrine. It is a comparison to the spirit of Nazism, which was guilty of some of the worst atrocities ever perpetrated by the human race. Thus when you compare any individual or group to the Nazi's you also by extension invoke this comparison. Unless the person/group in question is actually a Nazi, this is rarely a fair comparison.

Most of you are already aware of my opinions regarding Sinn Féin. I distrust them. I condemn their ongoing links to paramilitarism. I believe that they are ever ready to go back to the route of bombing and killing should it look like they will not achieve thier goals by democratic means. Unless they can adequetely demonstrate that these ways are behind them (which I highly doubt for the short to medium term) I will never vote for them.

However, I would still baulk at labelling them 'Nazis'.

Mighty_Mouse

Where did I deduce your dislike of English people? Well most recently when you decided to call me Brigadier General, bus77 pointed this out to be a reference to the Houses of Parliament. (I assume since you did not correct this, that it was correct)

How unlike you to again be presumptuous? Don't deduce the "undeducable" Brigadiar. Actually it was just a play on a Christ Moore song. No biggy. I sorry, I increased your rank did I?

just shoot yourself now and save the British Army the bullet because you're a moron.

And again those irrational Shin Feiners lose their heads!I'm afraid the only response I have is to quote myself again:

Yes, those who died on hunger strike are the thick, ignorant ones!

Originally posted by Sleepy
I don't believe the ignorant deserve a vote

Nice!! Very nice!! Another sign of those god dam republicans being evil enough to encourage "low-lifes" to vote. Did you actually say you werent an elitist?

---

oops sorry swiss!!! Wont contribute to the dragging of topic to nomans land again!

AngelofFire

Originally posted by Sleepy
I don't believe the ignorant deserve a vote tbh.

so what you are trying to say is unless one votes for Fianna Fail and the PDs, one is not using his/her vote properley.

Im sorry sleepy but there is no objective proper or inproper when it comes to someone using their vote-unless they write the F word on their ballet paper or something and then spol it.Everyone has the right to express political opinion in our society be it ignorant, informed or whatever its one of the hallmarks of our democracy.

Sleepy

Elitest no. Meritocrisist, probably.

Marq, I don't suggest that only politics students get a vote, I said those with a basic understanding of how to run a government i.e. those with an understanding of economics (which to use your logic would mean any politics students would be screwed).

I honestly don't know how you can argue that an uneducated vote is one worth being heard. Oh, that's right, you support a party that relies on an uneducated vote. One that believes coloquial politics is still important. One that "makes a stand" for people who think they're above paying their way in life.

If the only "education" a person recieves comes from a party that spouts nothing but propaganda, their vote is uneducated and, frankly, dangerous.

Mighty_Mouse, I withdraw the "shoot yourself" remark, it was out of line. That said, yes, once again, you must be reminded that those you idolise and make martyrs of were indeed ignorant. Your culture brought them up to know nothing but death, and in their twisted perspecives they died glorious ones. Unfortunately, they were over fifty years behind the times and, like all Sinn Fein / IRA supporters, unable to accept reality.

Sleepy

Originally posted by AngelofFire
so what you are trying to say is unless one votes for Fianna Fail and the PDs, one is not using his/her vote properley.

Im sorry sleepy but there is no objective proper or inproper when it comes to someone using their vote-unless they write the F word on their ballet paper or something and then spol it.Everyone has the right to express political opinion in our society be it ignorant, informed or whatever its one of the hallmarks of our democracy.

A vote for FF is just as spoiled as a vote for SF imho.

When a vote is cast from ignorance it is a dangerous thing. Just look at the current corruption that's evolved from the blind voting for Fianna Fail, regardless of how they behave in government.

swiss

The issue of who has a 'right' to vote is somewhat off topic, but I'll briefly give my view here.

My view is that a plan to only allow people with a baseline knowledge of politics/economics to vote is unworkable. For a start, there are very intelligent and informed people out there who have very little formal education. For example an elderly neigbour of mine is very well read and assimilates a great deal of information from national and international press, but only received a primary level education in his youth. I don't think he ever undertook a 'formal' course in economics or politics. Yet I would consider him to be more savvy than some college graduates.

Similarly, how would you intend to check for a level of knowledge in the fields of economics/politics? A written exam? Would this not mitigate against those who may have certain learning difficulties, but are otherwise knowledgeable? An oral exam? What form would the questions take? What if someone knows a great deal of general information about a party, but can't quite put thier finger on fact X, Y or Z?

I do think that there is an onus on people to at least learn something about a given situation before making a decision. This is especially true of voting. However, while I believe that your proposal that people are required to have a level of knowledge before being allowed to vote is well intentioned, it is impractical. It also has the potential to stir up considerable resentment. People simply would not like the implication that they are too ill informed to vote, and would also likely resent the 'forced' learning that this doctrine would implement.

The potential for abuse is also too great, IMO. Once you start 'educating' people, what facts do you include and what facts do you omit? Whose 'truth' is taught?

I'm afraid I'm guilty of going far off topic here, and I would ask that people go back on the topic in hand. If people want to discuss educational requirements then I recommend someone start up a seperate thread. I will then move all relevant posts to that thread from this one.

Marq

Originally posted by Sleepy
Elitest no. Meritocrisist, probably.
Marq, I don't suggest that only politics students get a vote, I said those with a basic understanding of how to run a government i.e. those with an understanding of economics.

Again, you miss the point, how exactly is it defined who has that understanding? you'll just have to put up with the fact that not everyone votes the same way as you do - this might be becuase they don't have a "basic understanding of how to run a government" or perhaps it is simply because they don't hold the same idealogical viewpoints as you do. Many economists (and economics students for that matter!) lean towards the left, others towards the right. understanding economics does not mean that you will not vote for Sinn Fein.

I personally feel that this growth for Sinn Fein is due to these voters feeling abandoned by other parties, and feeling like they have no voice. They feel that their involvement in politics is pointless and therefore unnecessary. The wonderful thing about this election result is that like it or lump it, these people who haven't voted for years are reinvolving themselves with the democratic system. Perhaps next time around they won't vote for Sinn Fein. What's important is that they vote.

Not to put too fine a point on it (in fact, a cliched one): that's democracy, deal with it.

AngelofFire

Originally posted by Sleepy
A vote for FF is just as spoiled as a vote for SF imho.

When a vote is cast from ignorance it is a dangerous thing. Just look at the current corruption that's evolved from the blind voting for Fianna Fail, regardless of how they behave in government.

Having self appointed moral dictators decide who should have the right to vote is even more dangerous. I gave a sinn fein candidate a high preference and he has already delivered a new bottle bank. The only danger in that is if i cut myself with the glass when im taking the bottles down.

It is also notoriously patronising to say that free education and a good welfare system is an adeaquate subsitute for giving ordinary people a right to vote. Its not much different than Gladstones policy of constructive unionism towards ireland in the 19th century which involved killing home rule with kindness.sure them fenians wont want home rule if we abolish the grand jury system and introduce the local government act,that will shut them up, they dont even know whats good for them

Mighty_Mouse

Elitest no. Meritocrisist,

Never been a philospher but do you not have to be one to be the other.

The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

A group of leaders or officeholders selected on the basis of individual ability or achievement

Ruled by the intellectually elite? I suppose it doesnt really matter and I'm not 100 per cent sure.

oh, that's right, you support a party that relies on an uneducated vote.

I think its this kind of attitude which is refered to as arrogance in the government/(elite?).At the end of the day, I wouldnt consider myself uneducated or ignorant yet agree with most of Sinn Feins policies. Is gerry adams uneducated?

Mighty_Mouse, I withdraw the "shoot yourself" remark, it was out of line

Is a withdrawal an apology? lol I can see your political correctness been stretched from here on that one so I wont push it !:D

Your culture

let me stop you there.........whats "my culture" and how is it different to yours?

Unfortunately, they were over fifty years behind the times and

50 years behind what?

like all Sinn Fein / IRA supporters, unable to accept reality.

At last I agree with you. Unable to accept the reality of second class citizenship and social injustice!

Hagar

Dark_Knight_Ire I have a hornet's nest that need stirring up.
Any chance you could drop around.
You seem to be the right man for the job.

Fionnan

" I gave a sinn fein candidate a high preference and he has already delivered a new bottle bank. The only danger in that is if i cut myself with the glass when im taking the bottles down."

Er, bottle bank delivered too quickly to be the responsibility of the Shinner. Typical work done by somebody else(on the previous council), is claimed by a Shinner. Pathetic

Sleepy

Yes Mighty Mouse you can take the withdrawal as an apology. Accusing me of Political Correctness is quite amusing though...

While yourself or Gerry Adams may be educated (however misguided), Sinn Fein are heavily reliant on street corner politics, "fighting" for the "rights" of people to not pay charges that the rest of the country had done for years etc. Largely targeting the politically unaware and trying to win small local battles instead of working towards the bigger picture. A country has to be run at a national level, not based on who you owe favours to (this applies equally to FF).

It's great if Sinn Fein can get more people interested in politics. The problem I see here is that if these people don't look elsewhere to learn about what they're voting about/for and the consequences of those votes, the wrong decisions will be made for the good of all in our country.

While ideally, only those fit to vote would be given one, this is unfortunately impractical and impossible(?) to implement. What we do need to do is work for the long - term and incorporate a political education into our secondary level education system. That way, hopefully our children won't make the same political mistakes as our parents did and might finally be able to govern for the bigger picture, instead of towards Dev's bloody-minded notion of comely maidens dancing at the crossroads of a rural idyl that never existed in the first place.

Your culture and the culture of your party is one of violence, bloodfeud, the Wolfetones and the pillorising of morons such as the hunger strikers. I don't subscribe to any of these things so our cultures are obviously quite different.

The hungerstrikers were 50 years behind the need for martyrs, Pierce et al had already done it in 1916.

Unable to accept the reality of second class citizenship and social injustice!

Sorry, but who in the Republic of Ireland are second class citizens?

Social injustice is reality, unfortunate yes, but killing the economy with socialism isn't going to heal it. If anything, under that scheme those you look to help will be hurt the most as they don't have any financial backup and a socialist state wouldn't have the cash to support them. At least in the current system there are opportunities for all to better their position in society. Wipe out our economy (which socialism would certainly do given our reliance on the USA) and you'd only hurt those you seek to help. Certainly, we need more public spending on health, education and crime prevention (which imho could be funded by the creation of a third tax band of approx 60% on earnings in excess of 80K per annum but that's another debate) but a centrally controlled government and punishment beatings are not the way to achieve this.

Marq

Originally posted by Sleepy
I honestly don't know how you can argue that an uneducated vote is one worth being heard. Oh, that's right, you support a party that relies on an uneducated vote. One that believes coloquial politics is still important. One that "makes a stand" for people who think they're above paying their way in life.

I assume that you are referring to Sinn Fein.
I would like to state that I do not in fact support Sinn Fein. I voted no in the poll and have never voted for Sinn Fein in my life, nor do I believe that I ever will. I vote Labour.

I do however support the right of people to vote for whomever they please, and while I do not agree with Sinn Fein or their brand of socialism, it is not my place to judge those that do to be wrong or call them uneducated. There's no such thing as a wrong vote, it's just a vote.

The other point that I have consistently made and you have consistently ignored is that appealing to the "uneducated" vote is a good thing, because it now forces those parties which have not been engaging with that demographic to do so. If other parties have to engage with this demographic it's good for them in the long run, even if, as you believe will happen, Sinn Fein fails them on local council this time around.

Marq

monument

How SF are 'doing it', why comments from Michael McDowell (like 'Sleepy' here) are helping them, and more...


SF: a lot done, more to do
http://www.thepost.ie/web/Sitemap/1.9did-455516546-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FComment-and-Analysis.asp

By Brian Feeney

====================

"It's *NOT* the economy, stupid"... (x2)

Nation needs a shrink, not more economic arguments
http://www.thepost.ie/web/Sitemap/1.9did-544707646-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FComment-and-Analysis.asp

By David McWilliams


Never mind the economy,stupid - listen to vox pops
http://www.thepost.ie/web/Sitemap/1.9did-549072646-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FComment-and-Analysis.asp

By Tom McGurk

Hagar

Originally posted by Sleepy
That way, hopefully our children won't make the same political mistakes as our parents did and might finally be able to govern for the bigger picture, instead of towards Dev's bloody-minded notion of comely maidens dancing at the crossroads of a rural idyl that never existed in the first place.

Dev founded Fianna Fáil not Sinn Féin.

But just to be sure I went down to the crossroads and there were no comely maidens but there was a gang of skangers hassleing two pensioners at the bus stop. The was a Roumanian playing an accordian badly accompanied by his wife selling the Big Issue, and a big black woman carryin two Lidl bags with her child tied to her back. The child must have been teething or somthing because he appeared to be chewing happily on his Irish Passport.

I think its about time someone else had a say in the running of this country and looks like a sizeable percentage of other voters agree.

Who was it that said "behold the risen people"?

earwicker

Originally posted by The Corinthian
We didn't disagree on everything, but if that is what your wish, so be it.

Indeed, and I felt a little sad backing out (although given what's happened since perhaps not a bad idea...).

"Leftie" policies/ strategies in "rightie" parties (and vice versa) is common enough. Absolutely no argument from me.

I wanted to agree to disagree because it seemed pointless to debate how "leftie" or "rightie" SF are if they may be said to borrow elements that are easily recognized as being from either side of the political spectrum. It just seemed that we might end up having an absurd conversation that recognized these elements, but with us arguing abstractly about how "right" or "left" they are.

My own position is that since they in practice identify themselves as "leftie," this practical identification informs my assessment of the party and my reading of its discussion documents. I'm a little suspicious of why one would want to erase the specificity of any party who "identifies" with either the "left" or the "right": in the case of SF, they have identified with socialist/ marxist politics for quite a while now.

I just don't see what's to be gained by erasing that specificity?

lucernarian

I think its saddening that certain people brand a political party (in this case Sinn Féin) as "Left" or "Right". Peoples' ideas, beliefs, feelings, ideals etc. are too complex to use a two-dimensional view on their opinions and I can't see how everyone's political views can be plotted on a scale of varying degrees of left or right. Has anyone thought of a "Far Centre" point of view?

I know it sounds wierd and/or confusing but think about it please

Thats all:cool:

dark_knight_ire

Originally posted by David-[RLD]-

Sinn Féin are a political party, and a popular political party at that. Face reality. They're pro-Agreement and are one of the foundations of the Peace Process. "Oh but they have links to the IRA!!" So what? Everyone has links to some form of criminal activity in one way or another. Doesn't necessarily mean that Sinn Féin go out when they're not in suits and ties and shoot people. What's that I hear? Ten-year-long ceasefire? Thought so.

See i have problems to this kind of logic, You say sinn fein have links to the IRA of course we all know this but how can they be on ceasefire, they are most clearly not. Shooting gardai, knocking off bands and illegal arms deals as well as being a strong player in the irish drugs trade.

Remember all the Sinn Fein posters think about it out of every 10 you saw one or two of them were probably funded out of some form of criminal activity.

Another point you made the so what if they have a link thing. NO GOVERNMENT can have a link to a criminal group it stands in the face of the constitution and what irish men and woman fought to achive.

Look at the poll most of you would not vote for tem but then not all would vote FF so we have to split that, very possible they could win a vote, if that every happened i could take comfort in knowing they would not last long before we would rise against them

monument

Originally posted by To_be_confirmed
I think its saddening that certain people brand a political party (in this case Sinn Féin) as "Left" or "Right". Peoples' ideas, beliefs, feelings, ideals etc. are too complex to use a two-dimensional view on their opinions and I can't see how everyone's political views can be plotted on a scale of varying degrees of left or right. Has anyone thought of a "Far Centre" point of view?

I know it sounds wierd and/or confusing but think about it please

Thats all:cool:

Welcome to The Political Compass.

There's abundant evidence for the need of it. The old one-dimensional categories of 'right' and 'left' , established for the seating arrangement of the French National Assembly of 1789, are overly simplistic for today's complex political landscape. For example, who are the 'conservatives' in today's Russia? Are they the unreconstructed Stalinists, or the reformers who have adopted the right-wing views of conservatives like Margaret Thatcher ?

For more SEE http://www.politicalcompass.org/ - Do the test and *then* read the analysis.