Toxic Masculinity harming MEN

Toxic Masculinity doesn't refer to plain old masculinity. It's like trying to get everyone to be the hard man, or feeling superior to people that don't do the same. There is a lot of talk about it in recent years as it can make some guys feel like they need to conform and change and it stops them being real or too open when they are struggling. They then get worse like a vicious circle as they can't get the support they actually wish they had, and things escalate.

You think chauvinism or racism was just made up too ?

Well it is the opposite of just that ...

It's a bit different to plain old fashioned bullying or it can be. The person can be charming, polite, friendly and come across as helpful and respectful. It can be obvious from the start or only after they have got to know you and built up a rapport. It takes many forms from control and manipulation to chipping away at someone else's ideology gradually or it can be just straight forward disapproval in certain circumstances from the start.

If there is a rapport or relationship between someone genuine and someone with ' toxic masculinity ' or even if they just fake it until it suits them ... until they find another Alpha Male, the genuine guy can really value the other's opinion and the toxic Alpha Male plays on this. The bond can debilitate the guy from being able to brush it off.

There are people that struggle big time on their own whether they try to join the masses or diverge. You can join the masses all you want but some people don't fall into place. People don't always fit - how do you think some elderly people end up with no family or friends for the final 20 -30 years ? There are people that nobody would realise had passed away unless they miss an appointment.

I reiterate that it is a male only issue. It's not as simple as kindness or nastiness. It's an ideology and a very harmful one. It can be every bit as harmful as a man and woman in a relationship with the man putting the woman on edge and eroding her. Look at it this way, if a man or a woman in a relationship can diminish the other person's abilities, confidence and happiness then it can also happen in a friendship. Like I said it only applicable to males as it is a hierarchy that the Macho Man or Alpha Male imposes. The very point is ' toxic masculinity ' often involves the stronger willed male to have such confidence, or the ability at the very least to fake it perfectly; that it enables them to impose their will or ideology. The other person may not be capable of meeting such expectations and may feel dreadful and very compromised. The toxic masculinity provides uncompromising self assured certainty to the Alpha Male's mind - a clear judgement that the other guy is a disappointment and the honest guy absorbs the disapproval ending up majorly doubting themselves feeling like crap.

The Macho Man can be sincere and genuine in their vision and aspirations for the other person to step up to the plate. They may purposely quietly show lack of interest / encouragement or slightly disapprove or make brief pointed remarks / jibes as a means to assert pressure to conform. They will react negatively if they incentivise the other party to behave but it doesn't work or they struggle with it. The reaction can be callous, unforgiving and direct absolute disgust and disdain. Games and the cold shoulder may feature more than words or arguments. They may keep a person on the hook until they suddenly chuck them under the next bus. Men have rules imposed on them by such figures who try to dehumanise and desensitise them to be more stoic and resilient. This is not the same for women. Women can support each other or open up without the foregoing presumption of questioning their femininity.

If a young adult guy fell off his bike he would grimace and clench rather than cry no matter the extent of the damage. It is more likely that a young woman would not nearly burst a vessel trying to hold the tears back knowing if the pain was excruciating the moment would happen, and then pass. The man would be mortified to burst out crying especially if it went on for several minutes and if any Macho Males observed such a display both sides would react awkwardly. Men are still held to these attitudes. There is an expectation on men to play or watch sports not placed on women. It can be hard for some men to grasp if another guy has zero interest in ' the game '. They literally are unable to take it on board thinking you're just less interested rather than not at all. Imagine a woman being confused if another woman never bakes in her lovely kitchen.

Toxic masculinity can be subtle, gradual, or permeate any encounters from the first interaction but it can be very invasive, persuasive and pervasive. It is often not as obvious as the kind of bullying where you can see it. It is easier to miss and even for the person to dismiss it as themselves being confused oversensitive or submitting to blame themselves more. You would struggle to see a motive unlike normal bullying so it becomes a vicious circle of pondering everything and outright confusion. You might also want to get on with the individual and value their input - drastically different from the normal schoolyard bully that you will resent or wish to avoid or maybe confront. It is much worse as it is completely mental and ongoing.

Girl Power and women's movements were for women to support each other and stand together against male chauvinism and unhealthy male controls in operation. They didn't deem it toxic masculinity but they knew it was men behaving badly - just men in this controlling regard. They had allies among some men but they also knew the difference between the majority enjoying their favoured status and those that were on their side publicly / behind the scenes. Women were pushed into submission until they worked together supporting each other.

The thing about ' toxic masculinity ' is that it encourages men to be seen to resilient instead of strengthening and building each other up with support. It's about competing and misses the link and strength in 2 minds are better than one. The strongest may eventually snap or miss out entirely on positive facets of life due to lines dreamt up and reinforced by some members of their own gender. Never mind One-Upmanship ... What about united we stand, divided we fall ?

What about Guy Power ?

Men are more likely to suffer more and longer lasting ill effects of becoming a widower than women, and have less of a support network. Do you think he feels strong and superior as he crumbles and realises that he gradually fell out of his or his wife's network ?

Evening OneeyedJack

Whether it's toxic or not depends on their behaviour ...

The topic leads onto another separate discussion about male mental health and perspectives. The movie The Joker shows a page saying something interesting near the start.

The shunning comes from the other side as they aim to actively discourage the individual's unmanly behaviour and exclude them ( like you inferred ) as a means to influence, alter and correct them.

You have forgotten one major point ... the toxic masculinity is all about being strong and stoic, being dismayed at guys that are not, and exerting pressure on them to conform to their ideology. It can include chauvinism against women as well, so should women just accept it too ???

You want to know if I disapprove of other people's JUDGEMENTAL views ... yes of course - if someone's view is to look down or hate on someone because of old fashioned archaic beliefs then we should say never mind ? You think that is a pack portrayed in the movies from another era ???We all know some men hold other men to certain old fashioned ideals that they just ain't feeling.

The subject is not superficial or something made up. By your logic it's okay to be backward about it as long as nobody gets hit over the head all's well.

Do you not see that people that are in the minority ( as far as society conditions us to believe ) are ironically both less acceptable to the Alpha Male, and also more likely to receive the brunt of it ?

What if the amount of men that don't fall into the gender's fullest epitome of traditional masculinity outnumber those that do, even by a small percentage ... should we be ignored, just lead or overpowered, being weaker examples by default ?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s a fair assessment of my position.

It stinks of an element at least of the topic being discussed and the negative cave man reaction.

I don't classify normal masculine behaviour as toxic. I classify toxic masculinity as oppressive and aggressive in nature. It seeks to reduce other men with the aim of promoting their unyielding blind-sighted vision of what a man should be. It's not cool.

The toxic macho guy will attempt to impose their take on correct masculinity by influence, control and manipulation; or by purposely conveying their disdain through comments, judgements or ultimatums etc. They will direct these strategies towards others as a way to forcibly change and fix individuals so they fit with their vision of ' toxic masculinty ' .

It's okay for people to be educated regarding racism, bigotry, sexism etc. Decades ago and even today in some countries sexism was accepted but women rose up and also racism became out of sync with civilised society.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What I see is some people desperate to claim they are an oppressed minority, and seeking ways to increase their numbers by identifying ways in which other groups in society are an oppressed minority too, and their common oppressor is an average normal guy such as myself. I don’t have any interest in oppressing anyone, quite the opposite in fact, and that’s why I don’t buy into an ideology which suggests that I am harmful to myself or others because I don’t wish to portray myself as being oppressed. I just don’t see how that sort of behaviour could be beneficial to a person’s mental health. All evidence suggests that it clearly isn’t if it’s proponents are anyone to go by. They’re generally miserable.

In other words ... they should join the masses and man up if they want to be counted. They should otherwise realise they will not be fully accepted either as being equals, or hold the same desire for people to include them ?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Traditional masculinity as you call it is predicated upon protecting and providing for the weaker members of society, so by definition if what you consider toxic masculinity were eliminated from society, responsibility would then fall on the weaker members of society to protect and provide for everyone. I don’t see how that would actually work in practice, as by definition the weaker members of society can’t even provide for themselves?

Weaker OR perhaps non-stereotypically valued enough male or female members of society have their own abilities, and are capable of more rather than less without over boxing certain leading emotions or traits.

Bill Gates is a successful business man with drive and prospects. He provides for his family.

OneeyedJack already determined that normal males provide and protect and claimed that weaker members of society would be unable to do so for themselves.

OneeyedJack also determined contradictorily ...

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don’t see why you think outliers and those who do not wish to participate in society should enjoy the protection of the society they shun? Shun what you observe to be toxic masculinity, yet expect to be protected by it at the same time? I’m certain that’s not how society actually functions.

So in other words guys must conform ( this is the concept for toxic masculinity ) in order to be a proper man, but not only must they be complicit in attempts to man up ... they also need to achieve a minimum certain status or ability in this ' toxic ' scenario.

You are saying that they will not deserve or warrant respect, protection, provision, support etc. try as they may if they still cannot fit into your ideology ???