Toxic Masculinity harming MEN

Skippyme

I love all your conspiracy theories of consorting with a load of feminists. I first thought it was guys being macho or ultra macho but it's more than that, as already explained. I definitely got sick of it as it's too stupid for words. You won't accept that I have already clearly stated that not all men have ' toxic masculinity '. Do I need to say not all men are toxic instead ? It doesn't detract from the fact that the toxic men use masculinity as the tool. The 2 are separate but the Toxic Guys/ Alpha Males / Ultra Macho Men merge them - it doesn't mean all men do though.

I keep saying leave the ladies alone as I have already referenced this. I keep saying yes, yes, yes and keep being asked about women's behaviour. The answer is yes ... women behave badly as well ... what more do you want.

The people accusing me of male feminism are either clever macho men that want to deflect the argument, or just men that had their egos hurt and jump straight up. I believe women in some countries have it easier than men do depending on their personal circumstances. Women may have a similar but opposite issue in reverse but the topic here in The Gentlemen's Club is the male side.

Calhoun wrote: »

you went out of your way as a new poster to find this forum and post this in it. What are your motives?

Calhoun I had to join to post. What do you want me to say ? I wanted to bring this topic to the table, isn't that obvious. I explained the term and discussed it. People got mad, they ramped it up. You wanted me to be more compromising and delicate ... isn't it almost impossible to explain, discuss and have my own back on this without holding strong. The side that you said would have been a better route is helpful additionally; not instead.

Boys will be boys is not a great argument to fall back on. If kids were not shown right and wrong then some kids would bash the others over the head and take their toys while others would share or even give their toys away. It's beneficial to let kids know before they land in school to treat others fairly. People can open other's minds sometimes or just build on information.

Skippyme

One eyed Jack wrote: »

How supportive do you think you are in thinking you’re better than other men whom you describe as cavemen, and using terms like toxic masculinity to perpetuate a negative stereotype of men?

Your whole rhetoric sounds like a weird mish mash of feminist and PUA theories - it’s completely disjointed nonsense. You imagine yourself as the greatest victim in all this, but at the same time you speak as though you’re a leader of some ‘new’ movement?

There’s nothing new in anything you’re saying that hasn’t been said before in dozens of different ways. You aren’t offering anything new, or insightful or inspiring. It’s just... meh. Whatever.

Answered this ...

Skippyme wrote: »

(1) There are quite a few of you very defensive about it and you don't put up much reasoning behind it - just telling me it's not your problem if others don't fit in ... What does this say about the male species if you's all count yourselves as the average example without admitting to being at the ' toxic ' end of the scale based on such a callous theme ??? You can't identify that it actually exerts extreme pressure on many men that would otherwise be more their natural selves to be afraid to step out of line. You don't want me telling you to tone it down but this is the exact message that men are given in reverse from ' Toxic Masculinity '. It places the burden on them that you are all up in arms over regarding yourselves ... you are assuming the victim role and using it as an excuse to carry on keeping the rest of us down. Men that have failing mental health, or maybe just need to reach out and be supported should instead be knocked down or kicked to the kerb entirely ? There is nothing comparable to peer support so no public service, shrink, medication or mentality of deal with things on your own would help. BTW don't place this onto the female gender as their niche ... that would really show you up.

Calhoun

Skippyme wrote: »

Calhoun I had to join to post. What do you want me to say ? I wanted to bring this topic to the table, isn't that obvious. I explained the term and discussed it. People got mad, they ramped it up. You wanted me to be more compromising and delicate ... isn't it almost impossible to explain, discuss and have my own back on this without holding strong. The side that you said would have been a better route is helpful additionally; not instead.

Boys will be boys is not a great argument to fall back on. If kids were not shown right and wrong then some kids would bash the others over the head and take their toys while others would share or even give their toys away. It's beneficial to let kids know before they land in school to treat others fairly. People can open other's minds sometimes or just build on information.

The reason i question your intent is you are a brand new account, and you were actively looking for an audience that would respond. Its allot like someone doing research.

My reasoning is that I don't think you want to bring the topic to the table from your response, you want to lay things out as you see them but don't really have any flexibility to see things from the other side but expect it from the posters on this forum.

I don't get the boys will be boys argument? Where are you getting that from? Did you read my post or are you just projecting?

iptba

Skippyme wrote: »

I keep saying leave the ladies alone as I have already referenced this. I keep saying yes, yes, yes and keep being asked about women's behaviour. The answer is yes ... women behave badly as well ... what more do you want.

I'd like to see you use the term "toxic femininity" which you have generally seemed to avoid using. And if you use that in other scenarios, my guess is you will see a lot of pushback.

You have often said things like:

What's your point ... forget about the ladies ... they have their troubles too.

However "toxic masculinity" isn't simply saying that males have problems but that other males cause their problems.

One eyed Jack

Skippyme wrote: »

Answered this ...

You didn’t answer anything. You offered the same rehearsed and rehashed responses that you’ve done throughout this thread when a very simple idea is presented to you -

How is what you’re doing, any different to the people you’re criticising?

I’m not being defensive at all because I don’t consider your ideas a threat to society. You’re just regurgitating the same nonsense ideas that are popular among a tiny minority of the population. That doesn’t make your ideas true or false, it’s just your opinion. I don’t agree with your opinion and I don’t see any value in your attempts to portray yourself as a victim of what you agree with others is what you call toxic masculinity.

That doesn’t mean I don’t see what you’re saying, or I don’t understand it, or I haven’t thought about it. It simply means I don’t agree with you that values and traits which I consider positive expressions of masculinity, should be discarded because they don’t suit you. You even go so far as to say that they’re not good even for men who benefit from those values. How does that work?

If I tell you happy as I am, who are you to tell me I’m not truly happy? How is that not attempted manipulation on your part? You say that men who share my values don’t care about other men, but it’s quite obvious that men care about men who share their values. It’s no different than your caring about people who share your values, and dismissing men who don’t share your values as “cavemen”.

I’m proud to be a caveman in that case.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm interested though...what is the "best man YOU can be" and what is stopping you achieve it?

You haven't answered this though...

Skippyme

iptba wrote: »

I'd like to see you use the term "toxic femininity" which you have generally seemed to avoid using.

I believe in toxic femininity but it's been hard to steer men towards the topic on our masculine side due to everybody's attempts to firstly deny all knowledge, and then counter it's existence.

It exists in a similar opposite form in reverse.

iptba wrote: »

You have often said things like:

However "toxic masculinity" isn't simply saying that males have problems but that other males cause their problems.

I definitely have had aggravation caused by it's existence. It does not cause every problem in life - it adds significant complexities and hassle. Men internalise much more due to pressures imposed on them by this extremity. It is unhealthy and adds to their woes. It both costs and ruins lives for many. There are so many men in the world that even if the established gang are top dog, have the most influence or most popularity, are the loudest or most respected this should not mean the rest count for less. We don't know the percentages of the different types of men. The smallest percentage could be thousands of actual human beings that happen to be men. Men deserve to be themselves ... If women were told to stay in their place by men that were stronger and louder we would not approve that she isn't respected to be her full self.

Skippyme

Skippyme wrote: »

I believe in toxic femininity but it's been hard to steer men towards the topic on our masculine side due to everybody's attempts to firstly deny all knowledge, and then counter it's existence.

It exists in a similar opposite form in reverse.



I definitely have had aggravation caused by it's existence. It does not cause every problem in life - it adds significant complexities and hassle. Men internalise much more due to pressures imposed on them by this extremity. It is unhealthy and adds to their woes. It both costs and ruins lives for many. There are so many men in the world that even if the established gang are top dog, have the most influence or most popularity, are the loudest or most respected this should not mean the rest count for less. We don't know the percentages of the different types of men. The smallest percentage could be thousands of actual human beings that happen to be men. Men deserve to be themselves ... If women were told to stay in their place by men that were stronger and louder we would not approve that she isn't respected to be her full self.

Again, you are talking nonsense. Toxic behaviour, if you want, is abundant in ALL humans. "Similar in opposite form in reverse"? Ignoring the double negative "opposite in reverse" that is rubbish. Bad behaviour is bad behaviour.

You are treating men and women like different species, not different genders.

Be who you want to be but realise that the choices you make about how you live your life have social, financial and personal consequences.

Men deserve to be themselves. I absolutely, 100% agree. But you are telling other men, who you deem toxic, not to be themselves because it makes you feel bad. It's a case of "everybody should be who they want to be as long as I like it".

That is at best hypocritical, and at worst, narcissistic bordering on psychopathic.

S.G.M.

Sleepy wrote:

Is it "toxic femininity" if women:

No it's still toxic masculinity. I don't mean it that its only men even though I only used men in my example. A slip on my part.
Imo it's the unfair treatment of men from anyone. It is ****ty behaviour. I only use the term as it's a relatively new term but it's also only relatively new to call this stuff out.
I don't follow what other annotations are with the term.
Btw a girl not picking a 'sensitive' guy because he's not 'macho' enough is not ****ty behaviour. That's personal preference but the other examples work.

S.G.M.

Deleted User wrote:

If a woman does that to a man is it toxic masculinity too?

It is imo. It's anyone who shames a guy for not being how people perceive they should be. That's my understanding. As I said, I don't follow any literature or opinions regarding the term.
That's what I believe 'Toxic Masculinity' should be used for.

iptba

S.G.M. wrote: »

Sleepy Is it "toxic femininity" if women:

No it's still toxic masculinity. I don't mean it that its only men even though I only used men in my example. A slip on my part.
Imo it's the unfair treatment of men from anyone. It is ****ty behaviour. I only use the term as it's a relatively new term but it's also only relatively new to call this stuff out.

So why is "toxic masculinity" used much, much more than "toxic femininity"? Based on your reasoning, it suggests that there is many multiples more unfair treatment of men than women. Not something that feminists usually agree to. So I'm not convinced that is what is meant by the term.

Skippyme

Skippyme wrote: »

I don't think all guilty of ' toxic masculinity .' I think it is holding society back on one side.

It is bad for all, even those currently happy with it.

It is stunting those already wanting to undo the shackles and break free to being the best man that they can be, as well as others from forming naturally and developing.

OneeyedJack I am saying the men that are happy enough ( not necessarily happily contented ) but happy without changes in the short term may be missing out on other aspects of life more freely felt and enjoyed by women. The thing is not about taking away from men, instead opening up to more freedom and experiences without fear of negative connotations. I already explained that it seems men keep moving away from the topic into the general theme of poor behaviour - it is ridiculous as it shows how uncomfortable you all are with the topic ... Bank robbers misbehave, yes ... lets keep changing the discussion to that as it is a human behaving badly - some are even women.

Same question from OneeyedJack of course gets the same answer. Is that a tactic, hope I contradict myself to make me look a fool ???

One eyed Jack wrote: »

How supportive do you think you are in thinking you’re better than other men whom you describe as cavemen, and using terms like toxic masculinity to perpetuate a negative stereotype of men

Skippyme wrote: »

You don't want me telling you to tone it down but this is the exact message that men are given in reverse from ' Toxic Masculinity '.

Deleted User wrote: »

You haven't answered this though...

Regarding being the best man somebody can be; it has been expressed by me ' toxic masculinity ' restricts men by closing off aspects of life previously. If you want to delve deeper and get more personal then it would be more like a job interview question ... the question that is subjective and everybody finds hardest. I rely on everything that I've discussed to date unless you wish to break it down further ???

S.G.M.

iptba wrote:

So why is "toxic masculinity" used much, much more than "toxic femininity"? Based on your reasoning, it suggests that there is many multiples more unfair treatment of men than women. Not something that feminists usually agree to. So I'm not convinced that is what is meant by the term.

Well looking at the very high suicide rates in Men, I think it's obvious that men face a lot of issues and a lot are ingrained in them from years and years are harmful stereotypes ie. Showing any weakness is bad.

Skippyme

S.G.M. wrote: »

It is imo. It's anyone who shames a guy for not being how people perceive they should be. That's my understanding. As I said, I don't follow any literature or opinions regarding the term.
That's what I believe 'Toxic Masculinity' should be used for.

That's a basic aspect of it in some form, yes.

iptba wrote: »

So why is "toxic masculinity" used much, much more than "toxic femininity"? Based on your reasoning, it suggests that there is many multiples more unfair treatment of men than women. Not something that feminists usually agree to. So I'm not convinced that is what is meant by the term.

I can't confirm the reason that the terminology surrounding the male division of this epidemic has progressed further so far. It could be that in some places that men are simply ahead, and where behind the women may catch up either in it's practice or in recognising it. Feminists may focus more on male chauvinism than on toxic masculinity affecting men themselves, perhaps?

Skippyme

Skippyme wrote: »

Regarding being the best man somebody can be; it has been expressed by me ' toxic masculinity ' restricts men by closing off aspects of life previously. If you want to delve deeper and get more personal then it would be more like a job interview question ... the question that is subjective and everybody finds hardest. I rely on everything that I've discussed to date unless you wish to break it down further ???

I didn't ask you a job interview style question.

You stated that you wished we could undo the shackles and be the best men we could be.

What is stopping you being the best man you can be? What can you not do now, that you wish you could do?

Simple question.

S.G.M.

S.G.M. wrote: »

Well looking at the very high suicide rates in Men, I think it's obvious that men face a lot of issues and a lot are ingrained in them from years and years are harmful stereotypes ie. Showing any weakness is bad.

Fuzzy logic there.

Suicide rates are indeed going up.

Funnily enough, promotion of the Gillette Ads, the newspapers, the womens aid ad campaigns etc that are championing the myth that masculinity is toxic are more prevalent than ever.

Perhaps men being told that their natural behaviours are toxic and the cause of all the problems in the world could be a contributing factor.

One eyed Jack

Skippyme wrote: »

OneeyedJack I am saying the men that are happy enough ( not necessarily happily contented ) but happy without changes in the short term may be missing out on other aspects of life more freely felt and enjoyed by women. The thing is not about taking away from men, instead opening up to more freedom and experiences without fear of negative connotations. I already explained that it seems men keep moving away from the topic into the general theme of poor behaviour - it is ridiculous as it shows how uncomfortable you all are with the topic ... Bank robbers misbehave, yes ... lets keep changing the discussion to that as it is a human behaving badly - some are even women.

You changed the topic to women there though? There’s one simple reason I don’t share the same aspects of life as women - because I’m not a woman. Women don’t share the same aspects of life as me, because they’re not men. There are advantages and disadvantages to being one or the other. Those freedoms enjoyed by either sex are only valuable because they are balanced by responsibility and purpose. You appear to want all of the freedoms that women enjoy, but you see nothing of the responsibilities that women have, such as taking care of the men in their lives being one example that you wondered was it still a thing. It is of course.

Skippyme wrote: »

Same question from OneeyedJack of course gets the same answer. Is that a tactic, hope I contradict myself to make me look a fool ???

It’s because I don’t want you to continue making a fool of yourself that I urge you to give up these childish notions of wanting to enjoy all of the freedoms of either sex, yet being unwilling to take on any of the responsibility for which those freedoms are a reward! One of us is unhappy with our circumstances, and you’re trying to convince people that they would be happier if they were as miserable as you appear to be. That’s the contradiction I don’t get. You haven’t said anything which would give me the impression you’ve thought all that much about anything other than how hard you think your life is.

bcklschaps

Speaking of changing the Topic ... can the OP please change the title of this thread to something like

So called "Toxic Masculinity" harming MEN

Skippyme

One eyed Jack wrote: »

... the responsibilities that women have, such as taking care of the men in their lives being one example that you wondered was it still a thing. It is of course.

I can't believe that you just came out with that. What a disgraceful thing to say

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s because I don’t want you to continue making a fool of yourself that I urge you to give up these childish notions of wanting to enjoy all of the freedoms of either sex, yet being unwilling to take on any of the responsibility

You insinuate that I am responsible and accountable to tow the standard or maybe the excessive ' toxic ' end right at the top. How does this equate to behaving like a child ?

I don't necessarily have to either play sports or do something that you equate to a woman's role in order to be an adult.

S.G.M.

Deleted User wrote:

Funnily enough, promotion of the Gillette Ads, the newspapers, the womens aid ad campaigns etc that are championing the myth that masculinity is toxic are more prevalent than ever.

Have you taken me up wrong?
Im not saying masculinity is toxic.
Absolutely nothing wrong with a fella being macho or strong or 'manly'.
I'm saying the toxic part is when a man is made fun off or shamed for not maybe being 'manly enough' or a naturally masculine fella not feeling comfortable opening up about his feelings because it's not the done thing.
It's not always a singular person at fault, society can cause toxic masculinity.

Ironicname

Skippyme wrote:

I can't believe that you just came out with that. What a disgraceful thing to say

The fact you think a woman looking after the men in her life is disgraceful, speaks volumes.

Skippyme wrote:

I don't necessarily have to either play sports or do something that you equate to a woman's role in order to be an adult.

No. But you need to be capable of taking responsibility for your failings and failures.

You seem to not be able to do that.

Skippyme

Deleted User wrote: »

Fuzzy logic there.

Suicide rates are indeed going up.

Funnily enough, promotion of the Gillette Ads, the newspapers, the womens aid ad campaigns etc that are championing the myth that masculinity is toxic are more prevalent than ever.

Perhaps men being told that their natural behaviours are toxic and the cause of all the problems in the world could be a contributing factor.

Men are being told exactly this from your side ... Men used to say quite openly that a woman's place was in the kitchen - unfortunately THEY WERE NOT JOKING

In this day and age, some cavemen still believe that, like ...

One eyed Jack wrote: »

...the responsibilities that women have, such as taking care of the men in their lives being one example that you wondered was it still a thing. It is of course.

Ironicname

Skippyme wrote:

Men are being told exactly this from your side ... Men used to say quite openly that a woman's place was in the kitchen - unfortunately THEY WERE NOT JOKING

What "side" was that poster on?

Skippyme wrote:

In this day and age, some cavemen still believe that like ...

Women do have a responsibility to look after the men in their lives, as do the men have a responsibility to look after the women.

That's what relationships/families are.

You were the one who took it to mean the kitchen.

Slightly toxic of you to be honest. Maybe you should have a look at your values.

Skippyme

Ironicname wrote: »

The fact you think a woman looking after the men in her life is disgraceful, speaks volumes.

He said

One eyed Jack wrote: »

...the responsibilities that women have, such as taking care of the men in their lives being one example that you wondered was it still a thing. It is of course.

Ironicname wrote: »

No. But you need to be capable of taking responsibility for your failings and failures.

You seem to not be able to do that.

This is the mentality that I have been referring to. I am a supposed failure if I break the man rules. I'm not hard enough, breaking rank or not conforming, or talking it out ... yet opening up takes courage, challenging others takes courage, and being in the minority ( as you all keep driving into me ) makes it naturally more difficult to argue back.

One eyed Jack

Skippyme wrote: »

I can't believe that you just came out with that. What a disgraceful thing to say

What’s disgraceful about what I said exactly? Any women I know take pride in how they are able to take care of the men in their lives. They’re proud of their contribution to society. Only a small minority of people including yourself seem to have an issue with that.

Skippyme wrote: »

You insinuate that I am responsible and accountable to tow the standard or maybe the excessive ' toxic ' end right at the top. How does this equate to behaving like a child?

I don't necessarily have to either play sports or do something that you equate to a woman's role in order to be an adult.

You appear to want everyone who doesn’t conform to your world view to do so because you imagine your way to live is better than theirs. That’s a point of view I’d expect of a child.

I’m not suggesting you have to do anything you don’t want to do, I’m saying that you don’t deserve my respect when you aren’t willing to do what it takes to earn my respect, and yes, that generally does mean making a contribution to society, instead of complaining that society isn’t being fair to you because you’re not shown the respect you feel you deserve. You’re not shown the respect that is shown to others simply because you haven’t earned it. Demanding respect you haven’t earned is simply childish behaviour.

Wibbs

One eyed Jack wrote: »

responsibility

Oh oh, I think that word requires a *trigger warning* for some.

Men have it crap and have it good in other ways. Women the same. Adults too. Part of being a half well realised adult is to realise and navigate this. This so called "toxic masculinity" is just the other side of the sexist coin where femininity was seen as "hysterical" and emotionally unreliable.

It's more of a social and political fashion than anything. Where once we had adverts and drama showing the "little woman" worrying whether her dishes were clean enough and her whites white enough, now we have the dopey man child in similar adverts with the woman being the clued in one. Simple reason for that is economics. EG the largest wealth transfer in American(and western) history has happened from men to women over the last 30 years, so money goes where money goes, hence a majority of everyday advertising is aimed at women. "Toxic masculinity" is just a part of that current cultural fashion, all too happily hijacked by the more extreme and daft sections of society. Just like hardline sexism against women permeated down too.

Put it another way, if we were having a similar conversation in the 1950's there would have also been some women buying into the silly little women narrative too. Just like these media eejit men wailing about how bad masculinity is. For many it puts food on their table and gives them purpose. Which is fine, but don't piss down my back and claim it's raining.

Wibbs

Skippyme wrote: »

This is the mentality that I have been referring to. I am a supposed failure if I break the man rules.

Nope. I would say one is need of personal development if one breaks the adult "rules", man or woman.

I'm not hard enough, breaking rank or not conforming, or talking it out ... yet opening up takes courage, challenging others takes courage, and being in the minority ( as you all keep driving into me ) makes it naturally more difficult to argue back.

Not if one possesses the rudiments of a spine it doesn't. And if one has the rudiments of a decent argument. Indeed if one is in possession of both it behoves one to challenge things. Running off at the first contact with the "enemy" is not a good look.

Skippyme

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What’s disgraceful about what I said exactly? Any women I know take pride in how they are able to take care of the men in their lives. They’re proud of their contribution to society. Only a small minority of people including yourself seem to have an issue with that. ... Demanding respect you haven’t earned is simply childish behaviour.

The points you make about women render you a male chauvinist.

I know everything in the statements that you have made regarding women that you don't deserve my respect, nor any woman's.

Women fought for their rights across the generations and across the world, and yet they are not afraid to show fragility, compassion and openness. Respect.

Skippyme

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope. I would say one is need of personal development if one breaks the adult "rules", man or woman.

Not if one possesses the rudiments of a spine it doesn't. And if one has the rudiments of a decent argument. Indeed if one is in possession of both it behoves one to challenge things. Running off at the first contact with the "enemy" is not a good look.

What a tirade ... I didn't run off anywhere. I referred to man rules i.e. ' toxic masculinity '.

tritium

S.G.M. wrote: »

Toxic masculinity is simple imo.
It's the 'craic' of making fun of the sensitive lad in the dressing room for not acting all macho like so many do.
It's implying a fella is weak for crying or opening up about his feelings.
It's shaming a guy for not knowing how to do the jobs that men would have be in charge off years ago.
It's shaming a guy for being a stay at home Dad or working with young kids.
Of course there are varying degrees but it's all valid imo.

No, that’s called being an asshole. Plenty from both genders subscribe to it. The stay at home dad trope is even the regular target of “hilarious” advertising aimed directly at women in many cases