Toxic Masculinity harming MEN

One eyed Jack

Skippyme wrote: »

Bill Gates is a successful business man with drive and prospects. He provides for his family.

OneeyedJack already determined that normal males provide and protect and claimed that weaker members of society would be unable to do so for themselves.

OneeyedJack also determined contradictorily ...

So in other words guys must conform ( this is the concept for toxic masculinity ) in order to be a proper man, but not only must they be complicit in attempts to man up ... they also need to achieve a minimum certain status or ability in this ' toxic ' scenario.

You are saying that they will not deserve or warrant respect, protection, provision, support etc. try as they may if they still cannot fit into your ideology ???

I chose to disengage from the conversation as I had determined it was simply going nowhere, particularly as you appeared to be unwilling to entertain anyone else’s perspective but your own. You’re doing it again in taking what I said and presenting it in a completely different context to the way in which it was intended.

Not once have I ever suggested anyone had to conform to my ideals of masculinity. You’re perfectly free to do your own thing, you do you and all that. At the same time, I don’t see why you expect you deserve or warrant respect, protection and support from anyone whom you determine represents “toxic” behaviour? I’m not demanding your respect, protection and support, quite frankly because I don’t need it, I don’t want it, because your support is equally conditional on the idea that I must conform to your ideals of masculinity. I’ve stated from the very beginning of the thread that I cannot do that, and attempting to conform to your ideals would be detrimental to my mental health.

That’s why I agreed with your summation of my position earlier, I’m all about diversity me, it’s fine, y’know, you go off and do your own thing and we won’t interfere with each other, but you aren’t prepared to do that - you want to be able to point fingers at what you identify as “toxic” masculinity and condemn people and tell them their behaviour is unhealthy and all the rest of it, and you expect the people you’re criticising should respect you for that?

I simply don’t see how your argument makes any sense. You appear to want all of the privileges without taking on any of the responsibility it takes to earn those privileges. If you want me to respect you then of course it stands to reason that you would have to do something to earn my respect. Otherwise you’re just demanding respect for doing nothing, and that kind of respect is meaningless. That’s the kind of ideology that fuels the “everyone is valid and deserves to be validated” identity politics which I simply cannot respect, and if anyone holds those beliefs, they’re welcome to them of course, but I do not wish to legitimise what I consider to be a poisonous ideology.

Skippyme

What I'm getting at is that men don't support or entertain other men that they think are not relevant representations of masculinity. What about the provide and protect aspect with regard to someone who is unable to reach that ?

What about someone with mental health complications or some kind of aspect of imperfection that makes it impossible for them to reach the ideal ?

What about someone reaching out ... opening up even and being met with someone who is at the very least unimpressed and not open to talking, listening and trying to show compassion ... more than that ... to do their best to understand ???

Support is key to mental health ... the focus on being a real man takes all that and abandons a ' weaker ' individual.

Men that take the route of competing and Oneupmanship and judging others should take a look in the mirror.

If it means different things to be a man, then why not include anyone willing to reach out ... as those reaching out will likely want to build on that and return the compliment.

Men across the world suffer in silence more than women because of the attitutes reflected by other men. Men that are normal or average, or even those legends above normal can eventually buckle too. It's just that men often crack when they have already cracked up and become desperate to open up but may be shut down.

Where's the humanity of telling men they need to close off and lessen their emotions and expressing themselves fully, and concentrate on providing, protecting and being a rock ?

One eyed Jack

Skippyme wrote: »

Men across the world suffer in silence more than women because of the attitutes reflected by other men. Men that are normal or average, or even those legends above normal can eventually buckle too. It's just that men often crack when they have already cracked up and become desperate to open up but may be shut down.

They don’t though. Anyone, be they either men or women, choose to suffer in silence because of their own attitudes towards other people.

Skippyme wrote: »

Where's the humanity of telling men they need to close off and lessen their emotions and expressing themselves fully, and concentrate on providing, protecting and being a rock ?

Aren’t you doing just that though when you describe men who do not conform to how you feel they should express their emotions as “toxic masculinity”? Men expressing themselves fully are described in your ideology as expressing “toxic masculinity”, the same sort of ideology that drove that godawful Gillette campaign.

Where is the humanity in failing to understand that people express themselves in all sorts of ways that have nothing to do with either masculinity or femininity? The kind of behaviour you’re describing as toxic where you associate what I would call bullying with masculinity, has nothing to do with masculinity. The same sort of bullying behaviour is observed in any group, whether it’s men or women.

It’s the behaviour itself is toxic, nothing to do with masculinity. Bullies if you weren’t aware of it come in all forms. They aren’t necessarily the biggest or the strongest, but the most manipulative, and that’s the sort of behaviour that is toxic. Encouraging people to provide and protect each other isn’t toxic behaviour, and that’s why I suggested earlier that the vast majority of women don’t buy into the idea that they are being oppressed by men either.

There’s a small cohort of people who develop an unhealthy victim mentality from which they perceive anyone who doesn’t validate their perceived victimhood as “toxic”. I personally don’t think anyone should be obligated to respect that sort of behaviour. It’s not healthy for them, and it’s not healthy for the person themselves.

Skippyme

Toxic Masculinity is a manipulative act, and it does not need to exhibit physical violence to be aggressive although in some instances it may.

The thing you don't understand is that ' toxic masculinity ' does indeed put pressure on males to try to conform, and so can prevent them from expressing themselves, and cause others to feel equally awkward as they too have a persona to live up to.

You didn't seem to either entertain or reference my post of 5.30pm yesterday. You seem to have shut off the explanation of something that affects men big time, and the consequences for those individuals.

There is no suggestion from my side that masculine men are unacceptable. The exclusion comes from the other side as well as any shunning or inference of inadequacies. It rubs off onto many average men because they too are trying to be seen as a man. They end up being unable to either express / understand themselves, and unable to communicate effectively. So imagine someone seeking support or opening up to men that are not comfortable to converse, show or feel any range of emotion ...

One eyed Jack

Skippyme wrote: »

The thing you don't understand is that ' toxic masculinity ' does indeed put pressure on males to try to conform, and so can prevent them from expressing themselves, and cause others to feel equally awkward as they too have a persona to live up to.

I understand that masculinity sets certain expectations and standards of men to conform and prevent them from expressing themselves. Only the other day I mentioned it in a thread on here that once people get beyond childhood, they are expected to exercise self control. That is conforming to a standard of expectations and behaviours that are generally expected of them as adults. It’s understandable then that an adult who wants to behave like a child is going to have difficulty with the fact that they aren’t getting the respect they feel they deserve.

By all means as I said - you do you, or they do they, or whatever ones preferred pronouns are, but arguing that people should respect something they don’t is unlikely to be taken seriously any time soon.

Skippyme

A man is not behaving like a child by expressing thoughts, emotions or behaviours that are part of all humans deep down. If a man ( even a hard man) reaches breaking point for whatever reason such as a bereavement, divorce, losing a job etc. they may need to adopt such qualities in order to re-balance themselves. It may just be a build up of life's commitments or that they pushed it down deep inside so often, or long ago and it surfaces with a vengeance. It may have ruined their life for years all because they tried to live to an expectance placed on them unfairly across all men.

I never said that men that are not Alpha Males / Macho Men would want pronouns used instead. There is no need to emasculate a man based on him being kind, sensitive, open, supportive, talkative or willing to reach out to others or ask for assistance.

It is better to get to it sooner but mental health or issues can return or life can bring new unexpected hurdles. Mental Health will be there for everyone all through their lives with some experiencing effects or illnesses if you like more often or severely. Mental Health won't always be completely fixed just like somebody that never manages to be gym body perfect for 75 years. It would take time, dedication, ability and constant energy plus we are only human.

There are successful calm and happy people that have had little to no mental health turbulence. The thing is that people are not machines so it can take 10 things, 100 things or 1 particular thing or bad timing etc to unroot somebody. Some people get so busy that they crumble and crack up, with others it's emotionally driven or bad luck. There are people that are okay until they lose a loved one, or get to a certain age and lose their career or get smeared like Whistleblowers. Someone all together together can unravel bit by bit, or just all together all of a sudden. It may just take somebody cheating in a marriage or becoming very ill causing long term worry, or a sudden incident or open ended circumstances to unsettle someone. They may find it difficult or impossible to get over like PTSD or even Post Natal.

People may have issues beforehand but this won't always be the case by the time they are exposed to toxic masculinity. There are statistics generally for places like US, UK and here that 25% of all romantic relationships become controlling or violent whether it be verbal or physical or both. They don't always have kids and they may even be same sex couples. There was a successful Business Woman on ITV's This Morning that explained that everyone thinks they would not put up with anyone abusing them in a relationship. She explained that it is subtle and unremarkable and builds. I imagine you think that this is different. However, if any gender in a supposedly loving, romantic or passionate close relationship can become abusive then there is no reason to put that aside into a neat little box. It is still reflective of how people can behave and treat others.

They may want the other person to improve, or get agitated or seriously irritated by the person they know so well. People only treat others based on how they perceive them - unless the abusive one has issues prior. The abusive person may have truly revered their relationship and the other person originally but eventually things can change. It is not obvious perhaps for a really extended period of time. The other person will not see a motive like I said or the evidence may be indistinct until much later.

People argue, people seem to care, people pass remarks - all seems innocent. You can't pinpoint it. It goes on until the other person accepts blame that they don't deserve and then it escalates. They are just not getting on, and / or that it is because they caused it they assume. They think maybe there was confusion over events because of them or that they were silly or wrong. The toxic person seems so sure that there is no question of where the blame should be placed. It ends up with one person seriously unsure of everything. The other person gives the impression that indeed you are unreasonable and totally in the wrong. There have been people interviewed on television and the pattern is always the same. You take a person with or without issues and then add a relationship that slowly chips away at their self. You can take a bubbly vivacious woman, or an honest happy go lucky kind soul and add a toxic relationship that started well and possibly didn't spoil for many a day / year. It may have spoiled as other people arrived or things changed but eventually people form a new opinion. Somebody married for 10 years may fall in love with someone they've know 3 years and compare their partner; even if nothing happens. They want to be loyal and they may hope to reinvigorate the marriage, but they end up chipping away trying to improve someone. The person may become less of a draw for them and so they don't hold them in the same regard anymore. They continue to chip away though or erode the other through distance and ill conceived remarks. People can charm strangers but show less regard to people that have gone down in their estimations. There can be people that are nice as pie and show compassion towards others but they won't be nice necessarily to somebody they have heard bad things about, or didn't click with. What about the person in work or school that everybody speaks so highly of and you just know they are a complete jerk ?

Men having either issues / not fulfilling enough or certain macho traits are less allowable to the Alpha Male, and also more likely to fall into the trap getting stuck in confusion.

iptba

I haven't followed this discussion, but it seems like all the pressures that men can feel are being blamed on other men.

However, if you're looking to attract or hold on to a female partner, their preferences can be important. One can ignore them, but it might not be a good strategy.

I think it's fair to say that the amount of resources a man currently has and also his potential to raise more resources is a significant factor in male attractiveness to a woman.

Similarly, if a man loses his job and thus his ability to provide resources, it can affect the relationship.

Unemployment Can Spell Divorce for Men, But Not Women
https://www.livescience.com/14705-husbands-employment-threatens-marriage.html

Skippyme

There is an advert for sight loss assistance dogs on the television, and people having benefited from the charity take part. There is a man on the adverts but unlike the woman - he states that after his sight went that all his friends disappeared. This is the kind of issue that makes me sick. The man's friends rather than rallying around, or gently reminding him that they can be called on, or even just keeping in touch, evaporate. People need at the very least to be afforded the same value after a life difficulty / change of circumstance.

The woman that will lose some level of interest in her partner for losing his job is just as bad. Would he live with her for a few years and get so sick of her competence in the kitchen that he would fall out of love ? I know there is also the fact that they may be under each other's feet more. It could also be that the men are feeling vulnerable, judged, guilty, in the way and well aware that as a man they are unfairly expected to save face. The reason for this is usually other men's arrogance spreading. The woman will be aware of the chest beaters available so sees leaving him as a fall back option for financial gain.

Skippyme

Skippyme wrote: »

he states that after his sight went that all his friends disappeared.

For the first time ever on boards I just guffawed into my own drink.

Not your fault you were being serious.

But it was still a funny as hell sentence.

Eoinbmw

Youd be some craic on a night out Skippyme!

Skippyme

Do you know I didn't cop that myself until you pointed it out! Yes that is funny ... and like Joan Rivers said if you can make someone laugh even at something terrible and even if they feel bad for it after ... at least in that moment they felt some kind of relief or bit of joy

BTW I'm still appalled lol

Skippyme

Skippyme wrote: »

like Joan Rivers said if you can make someone laugh even at something terrible

The human part of me thinks that the best thing you can ever do is laugh at the terrible. Laughing gives you a power over something. It is why bullies - some of the real scum of our world - use it so frequently.

But it is also why comedians have historically been so powerful. They give us the ability to laugh at the worst of ourselves. And thus they are not insulting us - but empowering us over it.

Skippyme wrote: »

at least in that moment they felt some kind of relief or bit of joy

The science part of me wants to point out that a lot of studies suggest this is the case. Laughter is a kind of "release" mechanism. Not solely. It seems to have evolved a lot of functions. or to serve a lot of functions. But "relief" at both conscious and unconscious levels does seem to be a big part of it

This may be the most off topic post of 2020 though

silverharp

Skippyme wrote: »

The woman that will lose some level of interest in her partner for losing his job is just as bad. Would he live with her for a few years and get so sick of her competence in the kitchen that he would fall out of love ? I know there is also the fact that they may be under each other's feet more. It could also be that the men are feeling vulnerable, judged, guilty, in the way and well aware that as a man they are unfairly expected to save face. The reason for this is usually other men's arrogance spreading. The woman will be aware of the chest beaters available so sees leaving him as a fall back option for financial gain.

it sounds like you are blaming men for the fact that women have a "mercenary" side to them.
I hate to break it to you but the male feminist dream that you can be a house husband to an up and coming professional woman on the rise is a fantasy. woman are far more judgemental about men then men are about each other.

Skippyme

In this instance I am blaming some women, and the same situation arises when a man marries for money or stays for it. He may maintain a long term relationship because she is a successful business woman or perhaps owns a small enterprise that keeps him cosy and her out of the way. It can work both ways.

Men with ' toxic masculinity ' would not be the latter as they would want all the control and to feel at the top. I know you may say it might be toxic of him to leach off of her but toxic masculinity is a classification of the strong impositions of men adhering to over zealous traditional stereotypes. He would fall under bad behaviour in a different regard for being a gold digger or a user if his sole interest was purely money.

tritium

Skippyme wrote: »

People may have issues beforehand but this won't always be the case by the time they are exposed to toxic masculinity. There are statistics generally for places like US, UK and here that 25% of all romantic relationships become controlling or violent whether it be verbal or physical or both. They don't always have kids and they may even be same sex couples. There was a successful Business Woman on ITV's This Morning that explained that everyone thinks they would not put up with anyone abusing them in a relationship. She explained that it is subtle and unremarkable and builds. I imagine you think that this is different. However, if any gender in a supposedly loving, romantic or passionate close relationship can become abusive then there is no reason to put that aside into a neat little box. It is still reflective of how people can behave and treat others.

They may want the other person to improve, or get agitated or seriously irritated by the person they know so well. People only treat others based on how they perceive them - unless the abusive one has issues prior. The abusive person may have truly revered their relationship and the other person originally but eventually things can change. It is not obvious perhaps for a really extended period of time. The other person will not see a motive like I said or the evidence may be indistinct until much later.

People argue, people seem to care, people pass remarks - all seems innocent. You can't pinpoint it. It goes on until the other person accepts blame that they don't deserve and then it escalates. They are just not getting on, and / or that it is because they caused it they assume. They think maybe there was confusion over events because of them or that they were silly or wrong. The toxic person seems so sure that there is no question of where the blame should be placed. It ends up with one person seriously unsure of everything. The other person gives the impression that indeed you are unreasonable and totally in the wrong. There have been people interviewed on television and the pattern is always the same. You take a person with or without issues and then add a relationship that slowly chips away at their self. You can take a bubbly vivacious woman, or an honest happy go lucky kind soul and add a toxic relationship that started well and possibly didn't spoil for many a day / year. It may have spoiled as other people arrived or things changed but eventually people form a new opinion. Somebody married for 10 years may fall in love with someone they've know 3 years and compare their partner; even if nothing happens. They want to be loyal and they may hope to reinvigorate the marriage, but they end up chipping away trying to improve someone. The person may become less of a draw for them and so they don't hold them in the same regard anymore. They continue to chip away though or erode the other through distance and ill conceived remarks. People can charm strangers but show less regard to people that have gone down in their estimations. There can be people that are nice as pie and show compassion towards others but they won't be nice necessarily to somebody they have heard bad things about, or didn't click with. What about the person in work or school that everybody speaks so highly of and you just know they are a complete jerk ?
.

Given over 40% of domestic violence is committed by women, and the most statistically violent relationships are lesbian ones, I don’t really see how your cements on domestic violence and coercive control have anything to do with masculinity

Skippyme

tritium wrote: »

Given over 40% of domestic violence is committed by women, and the most statistically violent relationships are lesbian ones, I don’t really see how your cements on domestic violence and coercive control have anything to do with masculinity

The point I was referring to was of the topic at hand ' toxic masculinity'.

I was making the point that if a man can abuse a woman in an initially loving and romantic partnership, then he is also capable of abusing a pal, acquaintance or colleague etc. He can also apply emotional, coercive or manipulative tactics in the same manner as any relationship by aiming to make others feel confused or in the wrong, or by placing demands and expectations of top of them. He will attempt to drive an exaggerated stereotype forward as their target - men don't talk, men need to distract themselves away from problems etc.

tritium

Skippyme wrote: »

The point I was referring to was of the topic at hand ' toxic masculinity'.

I was making the point that if a man can abuse a woman in an initially loving and romantic partnership, then he is also capable of abusing a pal, acquaintance or colleague etc. He can also apply emotional, coercive or manipulative tactics in the same manner as any relationship by aiming to make others feel confused or in the wrong, or by placing demands and expectations of top of them. He will attempt to drive an exaggerated stereotype forward as their target - men don't talk, men need to distract themselves away from problems etc.

Everything you’ve detailed there can and does extensively apply to women too, so whats it got to do with masculinity?

Skippyme

That's like saying compare morbid obesity with anorexia. They are not the same but they are both harmful. You term somebody that is housebound due to excessive weight morbidly obese. You seem to want over-amplified stereotypes of masculinity to just be referred to as bad behaviour. Toxic Masculinity is a harmful for men but it is a different concept than cattiness. It is the same situation for racism being categorised as bullying; it's not the same as chauvinism, sexism, homophobia or ageism. Domestic abuse is not the same as attacking a stranger on the street so the term explains it precisely.

I am calling a spade a spade. I did not make up the term. It is a recognised term and it existed before women and men fully understand or classified the problem. It is a problem and is prevalent that men feel pressured to keep it all inside, and if they do wish to open up / seek support find it very strained to do so. They often crack up first and even then they approach it not fully understanding their issues, or the way to explain it as well as being lost in confusion over their feelings or problems. They are well aware that other men may presume certain expectations of them like holding it together and keeping busy as a way to deal with it. They already feel not just in a bad place by the time they eventually reach not only because of whatever is troubling them, but also because they are aware of the interpretation other men may possess over masculinity. They realise this and if they do cross these barriers out of courage or desperation they might then be met with someone else holding the view that men are supposed to be in control and not display their feelings etc. ' Toxic masculinity ' first of all disables a man from actively and easily taking: Step 1 - to talk, Step 2 - to be able to do so without watering it down, Step 3 - Receiving interest and support instead of ... judgements, criticism and being disapproved of / told to keep busy or man up etc.

Wibbs

Skippyme wrote: »

That's like saying compare morbid obesity with anorexia.

Nope it's not and you're wilfully avoiding the several points raised.

I am calling a spade a spade.

Might sound great when you typed it, but it means nada in this context.

I did not make up the term. It is a recognised term and it existed before women and men fully understand or classified the problem.

It's a "recognised term" in third wave feminism and has leaked into the wider narrative and yet another stick to beat men/masculinity/the "patriarchy" with. Oddly enough suicide rates among men have been going steadily up since the days of "toxic masculinity" and the "stiff upper lip". One would think that they would show a downward thread what with all this talking about feelings and many more avenues of treatment for mental health problems. Many of which didn't even exist thirty years ago.

They realise this and if they do cross these barriers out of courage or desperation they might then be met with someone else holding the view that men are supposed to be in control and not display their feelings etc. ' Toxic masculinity ' first of all disables a man from actively and easily taking: Step 1 - to talk, Step 2 - to be able to do so without watering it down, Step 3 - Receiving interest and support instead of ... judgements, criticism and being disapproved of / told to keep busy or man up etc.

Hell, one can barely watch the telly, listen to the radio, read the interwebs without coming across some man or other talking about their feelings, while usually peddling the same feminist "toxic masculinity" bullsh1t.

Skippyme

Wibbs wrote: »

Hell, one can barely watch the telly, listen to the radio, read the interwebs without coming across some man or other talking about their feelings, while usually peddling the same feminist "toxic masculinity" bullsh1t.

It's not bull**** ... and guys find it hard to interact due to the pressure to act like a real or macho man. Social media paints a life of muscular fit men and makes people think less of human interaction.

Why support your friend who is just a nuisance like those you describe on the television ... If you can just hang and replace people as you have so many acquaintances, social media ' friends '.

Loyalty, support and your fellowman may feature more as life comes to play or closes in - the world gets smaller as people age and get left behind. Facebook friends may not visit or assist in the long-term or when a helping hand or ear is wanted.

The response you gave represents the reason men suffer in silence, while women are more likely to get the support they need compared to men. What about the men that felt they could not do so ? What about the men that did speak up and were shot down or made to feel like crap with quips or made to feel more unsure due to reactions like yours ?

It would be a different story if it was your son, cousin, nephew etc. and their mate or colleague etc. added to the problem and you were left to watch their mother, granny, sister or whatever pick up the pieces. Do you think men are infallible to mental health issues ??? ... Just because it gets on your nerves.

Skippyme

Skippyme wrote: »

It's not bull**** ... and guys find it hard to interact due to the pressure to act like a real or macho man. Social media paints a life of muscular fit men and makes people think less of human interaction.

Why support your friend who is just a nuisance like those you describe on the television ... If you can just hang and replace people as you have so many acquaintances, social media ' friends '.

Loyalty, support and your fellowman may feature more as life comes to play or closes in - the world gets smaller as people age and get left behind. Facebook friends may not visit or assist in the long-term or when a helping hand or ear is wanted.

The response you gave represents the reason men suffer in silence, while women are more likely to get the support they need compared to men. What about the men that felt they could not do so ? What about the men that did speak up and were shot down or made to feel like crap with quips or made to feel more unsure due to reactions like yours ?

It would be a different story if it was your son, cousin, nephew etc. and their mate or colleague etc. added to the problem and you were left to watch their mother, granny, sister or whatever pick up the pieces. Do you think men are infallible to mental health issues ??? ... Just because it gets on your nerves.

Why do you hate men? Honestly?

Not all men are sensitive. Not all men are macho. Men are all different, yet you only insult the ones you don't like. You are just as toxic as those who you rally against.

Some men will find you to be a wimp. Some men will think that you are a poor representation of a man. Some men will not like you as a person. Some men will find you whiny and annoying. Some men don't care about you.

NEWS FLASH....

Some women will find you to be a wimp. Some men will think that you are a poor representation of a man. Some women will not like you as a person. Some women will find you whiny and annoying. Some women don't care about you.

It's nothing to do with masculinity, it's to do with people's perception of you and your actions. Every single person has their own opinion, yet you feel that any that you deem toxic is wrong and should be changed? That's incredibly arrogant and very lacking in self awareness.

Wibbs

And again you avoid engaging with points raised. You seem to have clung to this "toxic masculinity" as a catch all explanation and you're hanging on for dear life. An example of the old line of if all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Like the religious convert who filters all life through their god.

Secondly you're quick to ascribe misrepresentation in support of this catch all. Please point out where I described the men above as a "nuisance". Please point out how my response causes men to suffer in silence. You come across as someone who sees any drift from your hobby horse as an attack of some sort or a reinforcement of said hobby horse.

Like I say and for whatever reason you've bought into this toxic masculinity narrative, almost certainly by second hand osmosis from the usual "feminist" sources and boy you're not for turning away from it as an explanation for the ills of men.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Why do you hate men? Honestly?

It reads like a set of cliches of men from the unabridged and nuttier Feminist Handbook(TM). As if they(I suspect she) don't know any men, or know them only by some remove.

That's incredibly arrogant and very lacking in self awareness.

Indeed and remarkably similar to a couple of previous poster's method of so called "debate".

Ironicname

Wibbs wrote:

It reads like a set of cliches of men from the unabridged and nuttier Feminist Handbook(TM). As if they(I suspect she) don't know any men, or know them only by some remove.

It's actually frightening how ridiculous the posters "argument" is.

Masculinity and the promotion of stereotypical traits is toxic? Why exactly? Because you don't feel like you fit in and you feel that the bigger boys are being mean? Ok. What's your solution? Stop the bigger boys doing the stuff they like? So you can get your own way? Don't man up, grow up.

Gynoid

Wibbs wrote: »

It reads like a set of cliches of men from the unabridged and nuttier Feminist Handbook(TM). As if they(I suspect she) don't know any men, or know them only by some remove.

Indeed and remarkably similar to a couple of previous poster's method of so called "debate".

That is what I thought from post one.

Skippyme

(1) There are quite a few of you very defensive about it and you don't put up much reasoning behind it - just telling me it's not your problem if others don't fit in ... What does this say about the male species if you's all count yourselves as the average example without admitting to being at the ' toxic ' end of the scale based on such a callous theme ??? You can't identify that it actually exerts extreme pressure on many men that would otherwise be more their natural selves to be afraid to step out of line. You don't want me telling you to tone it down but this is the exact message that men are given in reverse from ' Toxic Masculinity '. It places the burden on them that you are all up in arms over regarding yourselves ... you are assuming the victim role and using it as an excuse to carry on keeping the rest of us down. Men that have failing mental health, or maybe just need to reach out and be supported should instead be knocked down or kicked to the kerb entirely ? There is nothing comparable to peer support so no public service, shrink, medication or mentality of deal with things on your own would help. BTW don't place this onto the female gender as their niche ... that would really show you up.

(2) The topic has nothing to do with feminism. I explained it and I am referring to male to male interaction excluding male chauvinism. The topic is NOT about male chauvinism and you all keep going back to women being less than perfect. Women don't act out ' toxic masculinity ' - men do. If I was talking about neighbours with a long running feud suddenly turning to assault would you keep deflecting away from the perpetrator / their crime to talk economy / politics ?

(3) You are demanding answers from me but you have not all been so forth coming yourselves to address details that I provided on the topic, the explanation of the terminology, situations affecting men such as the examples already given ... and answers to questions that I asked throughout ???

I've personally encountered it and it does upset the apple cart and disrupt those who conduct themselves using the toxic element. There may be men who get an ego boost out of being formidable only to competitors, which is harmless enough, but the ones who have the toxic side want all men to compete in most ways and always. They still want to win themselves though but it makes them uneasy to see other guys letting the side down. They enjoy genuine competition but they strive to win, and if they fail they take it badly even if they internalise it privately - yet immensely. They will immediately reconfigure and start planning how they won't let it happen next time as failure is not an option. It sounds exaggerated but it is the mindset. It's also so selfish that nothing and nobody will stand in the way, even if it means trampling over others noticeably struggling or cutting them loose. I'm not referring to sport obviously. I am speaking broadly about oneupmanship for the sake of making yourself out to be the better man.

You think that people wouldn't put up with such condescending behaviour but there are a few obvious reasons that they might for a start. I gave the 1st already that they may not comprehend the situation as it develops, that often happens in relationships as people are sincere on their side but the other person just charms them or betrays them. The 2nd reason as you touched on is that perhaps they had issues ( but not always ) or the relationship has been the source of new found issues. People can do more damage than you might imagine, think of how affected kids can get after being bullied even after it's over. Take a person suffering from the effects of being bullied and it can lead to various complications that can affect their confidence, mood, abilities and susceptibility to being played.

Some people were fine before a particular relationship or before too many people screwed them over ... It's true others were not in a good place at the start but were lead up the garden path (maybe longterm by one person ) and weren't in a mindset capable of understanding or playing any tricky game or power trip. I never said that all men are toxic but it does spread. It can start innocently and unremarkably. I'll give an example: an older relative makes a snide comment to their younger male relative as banter behind closed doors making conversation. He might say the nerdy kid across the road or roll his eyes or make a face or let it be known that he thinks the boy needs a haircut. The younger sponge in this case takes it all in, especially as he perceives the older guy as a role model. It starts discreet and as opinions and becomes toxic. The other argument for people allowing others to belittle them is that education and intelligence doesn't always align with a person, or the impact that someone can create. You may be able to stick it to your neighbour but a lack of empathy from someone important to you or a cutting insult or snub from someone you revere can cut deep especially if you not only have a bond with them, but you may also aspire to being more like them in some aspects. You may think of them as a role model or a well adjusted or thoughful human - but maybe they are not.

I also note that anyone can suffer from variations of mental issues regardless of wealth or poverty, education or career, gender or age. It can happen early in life and hide or remain, or not until somebody falls apart unexpectedly age 55. Toxic Masculinity can exist even in mature intelligent men, who may have successfully used the technique their entire life or learnt it's uses along the way. It stops guys giving support as well as asking for it, and makes the whole thing impossible for some.

Remember the television presenter in USA who presented the news each evening for 8 years, and then had an uncontrollable panic attack live on air and quit afterwards so he wouldn't have to worry about the pressure anymore. He was afraid it would occur again not because of the workload but because of everyone watching when he felt so fragile. Some people in the public eye need drugs to get on stage, or to blot out the memories of being bullied or past trauma. The same applies to anybody like the doctor on Corrie popping pills which is frequent in their profession, or business people who lose it all playing poker online because they needed the buzz like an alcoholic.

Ironicname

Everything....literally everything.... you said above can also be aimed at women.

Some people are arseholes but I don't think that's where you are coming from.

Your whole premise is flawed. The whole issue seems to be that you feel inadequate when compared to what you would consider "alpha" males. The solution is not to weaken the so-called stronger men, but to work on your own inadequacy.

I have nothing but sympathy for someone in your position but "nerfing" masculinity is not the way to fix it.

There is nothing wrong with masculinity. To call aspects you don't like, or you can't live up to, toxic is ridiculous.

silverharp

Skippyme wrote: »

(1) There are quite a few of you very defensive about it and you don't put up much reasoning behind it - just telling me it's not your problem if others don't fit in ... What does this say about the male species if you's all count yourselves as the average example without admitting to being at the ' toxic ' end of the scale based on such a callous theme ??? You can't identify that it actually exerts extreme pressure on many men that would otherwise be more their natural selves to be afraid to step out of line. You don't want me telling you to tone it down but this is the exact message that men are given in reverse from ' Toxic Masculinity '. It places the burden on them that you are all up in arms over regarding yourselves ... you are assuming the victim role and using it as an excuse to carry on keeping the rest of us down. Men that have failing mental health, or maybe just need to reach out and be supported should instead be knocked down or kicked to the kerb entirely ? There is nothing comparable to peer support so no public service, shrink, medication or mentality of deal with things on your own would help. BTW don't place this onto the female gender as their niche ... that would really show you up.

Why do you think “this” (whatever exactly this is) is unique to the male “species” ? Women are exclusionary to other women who don’t fit in for whatever reason. It’s a human trait

Skippyme wrote: »

(2) The topic has nothing to do with feminism. I explained it and I am referring to male to male interaction excluding male chauvinism. The topic is NOT about male chauvinism and you all keep going back to women being less than perfect. Women don't act out ' toxic masculinity ' - men do. If I was talking about neighbours with a long running feud suddenly turning to assault would you keep deflecting away from the perpetrator / their crime to talk economy / politics ?

Presumably women would act out toxic femininity

Skippyme wrote: »

I've personally encountered it and it does upset the apple cart and disrupt those who conduct themselves using the toxic element. There may be men who get an ego boost out of being formidable only to competitors, which is harmless enough, but the ones who have the toxic side want all men to compete in most ways and always. They still want to win themselves though but it makes them uneasy to see other guys letting the side down. They enjoy genuine competition but they strive to win, and if they fail they take it badly even if they internalise it privately - yet immensely. They will immediately reconfigure and start planning how they won't let it happen next time as failure is not an option. It sounds exaggerated but it is the mindset. It's also so selfish that nothing and nobody will stand in the way, even if it means trampling over others noticeably struggling or cutting them loose. I'm not referring to sport obviously. I am speaking broadly about oneupmanship for the sake of making yourself out to be the better man.

Men don’t care what other men do, men do compete with each other, welcome to reality. Women compete with each other too , why are you making this gender specific?

Skippyme wrote: »

Some people were fine before a particular relationship or before too many people screwed them over ... It's true others were not in a good place at the start but were lead up the garden path (maybe longterm by one person ) and weren't in a mindset capable of understanding or playing any tricky game or power trip. I never said that all men are toxic but it does spread. It can start innocently and unremarkably. I'll give an example: an older relative makes a snide comment to their younger male relative as banter behind closed doors making conversation. He might say the nerdy kid across the road or roll his eyes or make a face or let it be known that he thinks the boy needs a haircut. The younger sponge in this case takes it all in, especially as he perceives the older guy as a role model. It starts discreet and as opinions and becomes toxic. The other argument for people allowing others to belittle them is that education and intelligence doesn't always align with a person, or the impact that someone can create. You may be able to stick it to your neighbour but a lack of empathy from someone important to you or a cutting insult or snub from someone you revere can cut deep especially if you not only have a bond with them, but you may also aspire to being more like them in some aspects. You may think of them as a role model or a well adjusted or thoughful human - but maybe they are not.

This is very random erm some people are a bit insensitive? Got nothing im afraid

Skippyme wrote: »

I also note that anyone can suffer from variations of mental issues regardless of wealth or poverty, education or career, gender or age. It can happen early in life and hide or remain, or not until somebody falls apart unexpectedly age 55. Toxic Masculinity can exist even in mature intelligent men, who may have successfully used the technique their entire life or learnt it's uses along the way. It stops guys giving support as well as asking for it, and makes the whole thing impossible for some.

Remember the television presenter in USA who presented the news each evening for 8 years, and then had an uncontrollable panic attack live on air and quit afterwards so he wouldn't have to worry about the pressure anymore. He was afraid it would occur again not because of the workload but because of everyone watching when he felt so fragile. Some people in the public eye need drugs to get on stage, or to blot out the memories of being bullied or past trauma. The same applies to anybody like the doctor on Corrie popping pills which is frequent in their profession, or business people who lose it all playing poker online because they needed the buzz like an alcoholic.

How someone deals with negative situations is individual , one can learn not to take oneself so seriously, again not seeing the gender specific framing here.

nthclare

Toxic masculinity my arse.

Some lads just need to man up and smell the coffee.
Take it on the chin and accept life on life's terms.

Blaming society for one's woes, men blaming women for their problems and tarring them all with the one brush thats toxic...

Guys not man enough to stand strong and be counted, that's toxic masculinity.

Falling out with people because they don't see your world view, that's toxic masculinity.

Not going to see a psychotherapist if you're full of fear and have a head like a box of frogs, thats toxic masculinity.

Blaming school kids who knew no better than to slag each other, that's toxic masculinity.
They knew no better.

Staying in a job that you're not happy about, thats toxic masculinity.

Not bettering yourself, thats toxic masculinity.

Not getting treatment for alcohol and drug addiction, that's toxic masculinity.

A man who marries a woman because she's a fine bit of stuff, thats toxic masculinity.
He doesn't really know who he's marrying and he's all for the visual aspect of the relationship rather than the full story.


A real man who's aware of the help and support that's available to him and takes action to help himself is a good man, he's taking action.

Being an incel is toxic masculinity, plenty of those plebs are the ones who are all about toxic masculinity and living a lifetime of irony.

Guys in relationships with guys and they on grindr and hiding their profiles for fear of getting caught by their partners, that's toxic masculinity.

Stabbing people in the back just to get on the cooperative ladder, that's toxic masculinity...

Skippyme

nthclare wrote: »

Toxic masculinity my arse.


Falling out with people because they don't see your world view, that's toxic masculinity.

Blaming school kids who knew no better than to slag each other, that's toxic masculinity.
They knew no better.

Stabbing people in the back just to get on the cooperative ladder, that's toxic masculinity...

Falling out ... you were all so quick to take offence and would not consider the fact that the terminology is different from just the male gender

Kids who knew no better ... forgiveness is great and sets you free as they say, who knew until you condescended ? Toxic Masculinity pressures, influences and bullies that is the point. You all seem to think it is okay because it's normal in your book. Isn't exclusion and bullying all about making yourself feel bigger and focusing on people that are different ? So to sum up bullying is okay as long as you are the bully, right ? Or only when it gets someone to conform as it will teach them to defend etc . and be a man supposedly ?

Stabbing people in the back ... that is part of the Alpha man culture, surround yourself with a network bringing the strongest closest to the top and diverging from them if you find someone harder / of more use. Loyalty ... no need!


The whole point from the start was that an average man does not exert ' toxic masculinity ' on others. The gang here seem eager to point out that they are all the manliest most normal non toxic bunch of lads, while also saying that any severe or nasty sides to them are just them being real proper men. The opinions coming forward are all displaying the consensus of follow like sheep, it's the only way - ain't we proper hard.

There seems to be a supremacy thing going on, not unlike racism. The arguments made by nthclare are ludicrous - he'd nearly argue someone mistaking their wife's Special K box for his Cornflakes before pouring them out but eating them anyway is toxic.

Ironicname wrote: »

The whole issue seems to be that you feel inadequate when compared to what you would consider "alpha" males. The solution is not to weaken the so-called stronger men, but to work on your own inadequacy.

The purpose of ' toxic masculinity ' is to instil a sense of inadequacy in men to force them to follow the herd. Humans are social beings and so exclusion is a tactic, along with other ways of making them feel threatened or pressured in some way.

Ironicname wrote: »

To call aspects you don't like, or you can't live up to, toxic is ridiculous.

Is it ? The guidelines / rules or aspired for goals are set by the loudest gang and by whatever they knew from their influences. The rules long ago even in America was to have one diner for one race, and another diner for the other folks. People evolved. The issue is similar in respect of the seemingly most populist voice. People feel the pressure to conform / are afraid to fall out of the normal voice or just want to fit in. They may wish men were more like themselves but they subconsciously or consciously make an assessment and err on the side of caution.

The basic parameters that you all expect and defend have been imprinted on your minds like a religion or a bias. The men you are today may not be the men you would have been with different parents or surroundings. It would not even necessitate a different era, merely a different region in the world and influences like elderly relatives, religion and television etc. could have made you all more or less of a man.