Toxic Masculinity harming MEN

Wibbs

S.G.M. wrote: »

I don't think a rise in female suicide rates discounts the fact that the high level of mens suicide rates is due to a society that doesn't allow men to open up and show weakness.

Which would make more sense S if such rates were higher in the past when the pressure to be "manly" was higher and masculinity was much more restrictive and the avenues for support and modern therapies were next to non existent.

iptba

S.G.M. wrote: »

Imo the high level of female suicide rates are down to them being under so much pressure to look or a act a certain way due to the rise in social media and the 'Influencer age'. The amount of female friends I have that suffer from eating disorders cos they don't like how they look. They are very open about it but it still really affects them and they have to fight through it.
I don't think a rise in female suicide rates discounts the fact that the high level of mens suicide rates is due to a society that doesn't allow men to open up and show weakness.

So why do you think "toxic femininity" is not generally used with regard to the issues you mention women/females face?

S.G.M.

Wibbs wrote:

Which would make more sense S if such rates were higher in the past when the pressure to be "manly" was higher and masculinity was much more restrictive and the avenues for support and modern therapies were next to non existent.

I get your point but I think in this day and age everything has been ramped up. One example would be, just say an effeminate teen lad is being bullied at school by other lads. Years ago, he gets restbite when he got home from school but nowadays the onslaught never ends as it continues on social media. It's a very specific example I know, but I think you get what I mean.

iptba wrote:

So why do you think "toxic femininity" is not generally used with regard to the issues you mention women/females face?

I think that's because these issue aren't necessarily related to a woman's feminity.

Calhoun

S.G.M. wrote: »

I get your point but I think in this day and age everything has been ramped up. One example would be, just say an effeminate teen lad is being bullied at school by other lads. Years ago, he gets restbite when he got home from school but nowadays the onslaught never ends as it continues on social media. It's a very specific example I know, but I think you get what I mean.



I think that's because these issue aren't necessarily related to a woman's feminity.

Same could be said with any bullying, allot of recent case of young teen women was due to online bullying.

S.G.M.

Calhoun wrote:

Same could be said with any bullying, allot of recent case of young teen women was due to online bullying.

True and if it the bullies were claiming that a teen woman was 'too butch', I would consider that Toxic Feminity.
Bullying is gonna cause these issues whether your male or female. I used that example as one that can be related to masculinity.

iptba

S.G.M. wrote: »

So why do you think "toxic femininity" is not generally used with regard to the issues you mention women/females face?

I think that's because these issue aren't necessarily related to a woman's feminity.

This seems to contradict the point of yours I was replying to:

S.G.M. wrote: »

Imo the high level of female suicide rates are down to them being under so much pressure to look or a act a certain way due to the rise in social media and the 'Influencer age'. The amount of female friends I have that suffer from eating disorders cos they don't like how they look. They are very open about it but it still really affects them and they have to fight through it.

Calhoun

S.G.M. wrote: »

True and if it the bullies were claiming that a teen woman was 'too butch', I would consider that Toxic Feminity.
Bullying is gonna cause these issues whether your male or female. I used that example as one that can be related to masculinity.

Well i mean females are bullied for many reason that would just be one of them, there are many examples of what would be considered toxic femininity. Saying though that its the social media and how things look ect is primary reason is a bit of a cop out.

Bullying happens to both male and females and it does extend to online and it also leads to suicide. So i don't get the differentiation of why its an issue with men but not women.

There is an argument of the medias portrayal of men could also be leading to suicide.

iptba

iptba wrote: »

So why do you think "toxic femininity" is not generally used with regard to the issues you mention women/females face?

To answer my question myself:
I think it's because "toxic masculinity" points the finger at men for causing problems. That is generally seen as acceptable by feminists and the like. When problems are blamed on "patriarchy" and "patriarchal institutions", it's basically pointing the finger at men for problems.

Thus, "toxic femininity" would be pointing the finger at women for problems in society. That is far less acceptable.

S.G.M.

iptba wrote:

This seems to contradict the point of yours I was replying to:

I get why it may sound like that. I'll rephrase it. Women do have to deal with a lot of **** nowadays and some things that I feel would be considered as Toxic Femininity would be;
- Being shamed for not being feminine enough.
- Being shamed for not having children.
- Being shamed for not having a partner.
They do have to deal with a lot of this stuff so maybe Toxic Feminity should be used more often.

When I said, it wasn't 'Feminine issues', I was referring to women who struggle with maybe not being as pretty as the Instagram models or too heavy or too tall etc. Not necessarily anything to do with their femininity.
However it can definitely also be related to that.
Having said all that, that's why I think that suicide rates are on the rise for women.

S.G.M.

Calhoun wrote:

Well i mean females are bullied for many reason that would just be one of them, there are many examples of what would be considered toxic femininity. Saying though that its the social media and how things look ect is primary reason is a bit of a cop out.

I'm only using my own experience. I'm in my 20's, have a lot of female friends and work with secondary school children. The majority of issues those females have told me has nothing to do with their femininity.
Its their looks, worries about the future, their figure, of course bullying etc etc. The fact that these women and girls will open up about these things shows the feel they can.
This tells me that the higher suicide rate is down to more than femininity.
Whereas you don't get guys feeling like they can open up as easily. Of course some do but we know a lot are struggling and don't feel they can. This is why I feel it is attributed to the high suicide rate in males.
Now of course, this is just my opinion and some women feel they can't open up for whatever reason while some men feel they can.
This was all just in relation to someone saying that the high suicide rates in men aren't necessarily down to 'Toxic masculinity' which I feel they are.

S.G.M.

iptba wrote:

To answer my question myself: I think it's because "toxic masculinity" points the finger at men for causing problems. That is generally seen as acceptable by feminists and the like. When problems are blamed on "patriarchy" and "patriarchal institutions", it's basically pointing the finger at men for problems.

Men being blamed is another big issue definitely. I wouldn't consider that 'toxic masculinity' but that's just my interpretation of the term. It may be for you.

Calhoun

S.G.M. wrote: »

I'm only using my own experience. I'm in my 20's, have a lot of female friends and work with secondary school children. The majority of issues those females have told me has nothing to do with their femininity.
Its their looks, worries about the future, their figure, of course bullying etc etc. The fact that these women and girls will open up about these things shows the feel they can.
This tells me that the higher suicide rate is down to more than femininity.
Whereas you don't get guys feeling like they can open up as easily. Of course some do but we know a lot are struggling and don't feel they can. This is why I feel it is attributed to the high suicide rate in males.
Now of course, this is just my opinion and some women feel they can't open up for whatever reason while some men feel they can.
This was all just in relation to someone saying that the high suicide rates in men aren't necessarily down to 'Toxic masculinity' which I feel they are.

Hold on your basically speculating on your small experience with women saying that the interaction with other women is minor and its actually other things.

Yet for men its only the one factor of not being able to communicate with each other?

Suicide is a nuanced issue and you do it some disservice to label it as just toxic masculinity.

All of the social issues you feel that impact women that men are somehow immune to.

Silentcorner

S.G.M. wrote: »

I'm only using my own experience. I'm in my 20's, have a lot of female friends and work with secondary school children. The majority of issues those females have told me has nothing to do with their femininity.
Its their looks, worries about the future, their figure, of course bullying etc etc. The fact that these women and girls will open up about these things shows the feel they can.
This tells me that the higher suicide rate is down to more than femininity.
Whereas you don't get guys feeling like they can open up as easily. Of course some do but we know a lot are struggling and don't feel they can. This is why I feel it is attributed to the high suicide rate in males.
Now of course, this is just my opinion and some women feel they can't open up for whatever reason while some men feel they can.
This was all just in relation to someone saying that the high suicide rates in men aren't necessarily down to 'Toxic masculinity' which I feel they are.

You have a very shallow outlook.

You are a young man who is part of a generation of men who have been bombarded with incessant negative signals about their own gender from media/culture.


People are flawed...it is as simple as that...men have their flaws, women likewise, Irish people have their flaws...this toxic narrative that has infested culture/media is deliberately divisive.

We talk about men in the same way they spoke about Jews in Germany during the 30s...media turned on Jewish people and amplified a deep rooted flaw that exists in all of us where we are willing to see the worst in a gender/race/nationality.

Life is tough enough without having to deal with the infantile ideology of the Modern day Feminist.

S.G.M.

Calhoun wrote:

Yet for men its only the one factor of not being able to communicate with each other?

Suicide is a nuanced issue and you do it some disservice to label it as just toxic masculinity.

All of the social issues you feel that impact women that men are somehow immune to.

You're putting words in my mouth, I didn't say it's just toxic masculinity. I said the high rates are down to it as it's the prevailing reason. There are loads of issues that men face including getting bashed from the media as has been pointed out. However I feel that toxic masculinity really contributes to what rockets the numbers up.

S.G.M.

I get your point Silentcorner and agree with what you're saying. I know theres a lot that causes issues for men. Ive suffered with suicidal ideation, I can assure you, ive no shallow outlook.

Calhoun

S.G.M. wrote: »

You're putting words in my mouth, I didn't say it's just toxic masculinity. I said the high rates are down to it as it's the prevailing reason. There are loads of issues that men face including getting bashed from the media as has been pointed out. However I feel that toxic masculinity really contributes to what rockets the numbers up.

Your saying the main reason for male suicide is toxic masculinity. Your down playing all other areas that contribute to it and just painting a big boogey man over men. Its nearly akin to victim blaming, its like they deserved to hang themselves because they are men and its toxic masculinity.

It could be a generational thing, as i am about 10 years older than you my generation we did talk to each other when it mattered. Maybe in the past 10 years things have gotten harsher and younger generations feel they cant talk.

If i was to actually pin point some of the reasons for male suicide i would say its nuanced and down to a number of societal pressures. Number one of these is how disposable men are seen, homeless numbers, medical research ect ect

Silentcorner

S.G.M. wrote: »

I get your point Silentcorner and agree with what you're saying. I know theres a lot that causes issues for men. Ive suffered with suicidal ideation, I can assure you, ive no shallow outlook.

I beg your pardon, what I meant was a shallow outlook in regards the term we are discussing.

Lord knows I remember what it is like to be in my 20's...nothing was straight forward!!!

What I can see happening is a certain percentage of men will internalise this narrative, another percentage will ignore it...and have no doubt, a percentage will lash back.

S.G.M.

Silentcorner wrote:

I beg your pardon, what I meant was a shallow outlook in regards the term we are discussing.

I thought ya meant a shallow outlook on what causes suicide and I meant that I know full well what can cause suicide.

Skippyme

I think for ' toxic femininity ' it is a similar opposite issue in reverse. The issues are different but there may be an overlap in some aspects like the pressure element of it. The pressure is in different forms and other areas.

The reason that ' toxic masculinity ' appears more commonly in psychology and sociology is likely due to it's overbearing presence, barriers, and conformists in varying degrees. Social media does encourage men to compete on a physical level not just in terms of appearance, but also visible strength and prowess. There is more pressure to appear dominate and self assured yet maintaining an easy going effortless persona. The precedence virtually at all times favours competing rather than supporting other males, especially in male exclusive friendships. It seems more severe and even though people may not fully realise the extent / complexities involved, more people both register to it as well as register it.

Skippyme wrote: »

Feminists may focus more on male chauvinism than on toxic masculinity affecting men themselves, perhaps?

Wibbs

S.G.M. wrote: »

I get your point but I think in this day and age everything has been ramped up. One example would be, just say an effeminate teen lad is being bullied at school by other lads. Years ago, he gets restbite when he got home from school but nowadays the onslaught never ends as it continues on social media. It's a very specific example I know, but I think you get what I mean.

Oh I do and social pressures are significantly higher for teens today. Not just teens. Basically if someone is within the age range that doesn't remember the world without the interwebs they're open to it. Old farts less so, because it's generally easier for them to forget and ignore something they didn't grow up with as an addition rather than a core part of life.

On the other side of that whole social media thing is some avenues of support and information. EG that same effeminate teen lad in the 1950's wouldn't have a clue what was going on, would have no real way to find out and wouldn't have any heroes in the public mind to look up to(effeminate men being the butt of the joke 99% of the time). Today he would. Never mind he'd have a lot less protection in law.

I think that's because these issue aren't necessarily related to a woman's feminity.

S.G.M. wrote: »

The majority of issues those females have told me has nothing to do with their femininity.

It would be my opinion that this is much more down to the simple fact that "toxic femininity" doesn't even exist as an idea in the current social narrative. So no wonder they, you, we don't ascribe things to it. Take your examples:

Its their looks, worries about the future, their figure, of course bullying etc

Their looks and figures and body image is about as "feminine" as it gets. There are whole industries that make many billions per year out of pandering to and egging on insecurities in women. Often run by some too. The fashion industry influencers and movers and shakers tend more to be women than just about any other business. Mass media is pretty women heavy too. Hell I find it at once hilarious and sad and daftly ironic that you have so called feminists being big into fashion.

That stuff in Men™ is a fraction of their reality. Sure the fat or bald guy will take some static and it's hurtful, but not nearly to the degree that women feel on a daily basis, no matter what they look like. Indeed it has been my personal experience that those women who more closely approach the current "ideal" are more likely to be neurotic about it. Body image in women and insecurities about it are like the tinnitus of life. Look at the gender disparity in eating disorders as an example. The disparity in cosmetic surgery. The disparity in interest in fashion. Look at fashion itself and look how slowly it changes for men over many decades, then look how quickly it changes for women. Hell, the industries actively try to push it as seasonal. Brown is the new black for the Faaaall seasons. Until spring, when it'll be yellow. Legs are in. Legless women need not apply. Even this new ballsology around "real women" and "plus size". That's just the same industries pushing more product in areas they weren't getting traction in. So they put some fat lass on the cover of Vogue(which won't sell nearly as much as a cover with a glamorexic photoshopped to giraffe limbed death), to show they're "inclusive". With the pages stuffed full of 15 year old coathangers from Moscow and diet ads and editorials.

Silentcorner wrote: »

We talk about men in the same way they spoke about Jews in Germany during the 30s...media turned on Jewish people and amplified a deep rooted flaw that exists in all of us where we are willing to see the worst in a gender/race/nationality.

Ah here S, I was with you up to this point. Just a tad OTT.

Though I would agree with you here:

Life is tough enough without having to deal with the infantile ideology of the Modern day Feminist.

Though for me I just ignore it. It's fun to watch what passes for their "philosophy" crumble like a butterfly wing at the merest touch in non echo chambers, but in my life it means sweet feck all. That said I don't work in a corporate environment. I don't have to watch my P's and Q's in such an environment. So it's easy for me to ignore it TBH. I give zero fcuks because I can afford to. I can understand a young lad in such an environment being wound up by it alright.

Skippyme wrote: »

The reason that ' toxic masculinity ' appears more commonly in psychology and sociology is likely due to

...fashion. That's the majority of it. It's a currently fashionable term that came along on the back of university social "studies" which trickled down into the media and psychology because the same students ended up in such careers afterwards. It's also an overswing of the pendulum from the sexist past.

it's overbearing presence, barriers, and conformists in varying degrees. Social media does encourage men to compete on a physical level not just in terms of appearance, but also visible strength and prowess. There is more pressure to appear dominate and self assured yet maintaining an easy going effortless persona. The precedence virtually at all times favours competing rather than supporting other males, especially in male exclusive friendships. It seems more severe and even though people may not fully realise the extent / complexities involved, more people both register to it as well as register it.

And women don't suffer from and indeed inflict similar? Women are just as, if not more socially competitive. They're less able to compete on the physical level so that can go in other directions. Again talk to actual women. Ask them about their school days, the cliques, the exclusion, all the way to social bullying. Ask them about their body image and how much that is in play in their minds. Ask them about their friendships. I have found male friendships to be much more solid and long lasting in general. Even in men/women friendships. Personally though both have been equally valued and great I have found my male friends more consistent and reliable than my women friends over time. I've had a few genuine women mates, like sisters really and fantastic people. The longest lasting was about fifteen years. Of my male friends the longest lasting are over forty years.

But ask women, I guarantee they'll open your eyes, particularly those who didn't quite fit in. It'll be a sliding scale of BS, but just the same as is found in male social dynamics. And yet, do we ever hear even the hint of "toxic femininity" being suggested? We do not. Indeed I strongly suspect even the very term would be considered "sexist" by many. Put it this way; when a Harvard study on partner abuse found that lesbian couples were most likely to be abusive even this was blamed on "patriarchal" thinking and "toxic masculinity". That the "butch" in the couple was simply aping the "toxic masculinity" of men and the patriarchy. Pity that the studies found that it was as likely to be the "femme" partner who was the abuser...

iptba

I thought I’d say that I am pleased posters have a concern for boys and men. We’re a group that tend not to get as much support and interest in many ways than women/females for probably a variety of reasons. Issues men face should be discussed, it’s just important how they are discussed. Looking at men’s issues too much through a feminist lens can cause problems.

Calhoun

iptba wrote: »

I thought I’d say that I am pleased posters have a concern for boys and men. We’re a group that tend not to get as much support and interest in many ways than women/females for probably a variety of reasons. Issues men face should be discussed, it’s just important how they are discussed. Looking at men’s issues too much through a feminist lens can cause problems.

Its like anything, if you want positive change you have to meet on a level of understanding, respect for the other position and also compromise. Look at the likes of the negotiations in the north, we never got peace by basically saying your as shower of bastards all at fault.

Skippyme

Calhoun wrote: »

...if you want positive change ...respect for the other position

Aufbau wrote: »

Fair play, Skippyme. You started a discussion on toxic masculinity harming men, and the lads who think they're disagreeing with you put on a textbook display of schoolyard bullying ��

Calhoun wrote: »

The poor bullied soul, you got a shoulder to cry on?

I never mentioned any of you bullying me, but OTHERS DID NOTICE IT

Calhoun wrote: »

...if you cannot argue your point without resorting to cries of bullying then i think its back to twitter with you

I still love this old chestnut, a beacon for a dumbed-down explanation of the ' toxic ' element of ' toxic masculinity '.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

...the responsibilities that women have, such as taking care of the men in their lives being one example that you wondered was it still a thing. It is of course.

Calhoun

Skippyme wrote: »

I never mentioned any of you bullying me, but OTHERS DID NOTICE IT



I still love this old chestnut, a beacon for a dumbed-down explanation of the ' toxic ' element of ' toxic masculinity '.

You should report it to the mod/admins that you were bullied, maybe go on Joe Duffy.

I joke Joe is too old for your generation, take it to twitter.

Skippyme

Skippyme wrote: »

I still love this old chestnut, a beacon for a dumbed-down explanation of the ' toxic ' element of ' toxic masculinity '.

The fact that you think that expecting a woman to look after men in her life as toxic masculinity is astoundingly telling.

You obviously have no concept of what is required to be a functional person who people want to be around.

Calhoun

Deleted User wrote: »

The fact that you think that a expecting a woman to look after men in her life as toxic masculinity is astoundingly telling.

You obviously have no concept of what is required to be a functional person who people want to be around.

You might say the OP is being toxic in their opinion as they have expectation that men should look after themselves solely.

The nuance of relationships and men and women looking after each other in different ways is definitely lost.

Seriously though stop bullying the OP :pac: