The way forward for LC2021

Random sample · 13-02-2021 6:56pm

Rosita wrote: »

Probably very non-pc thing to be saying but the role of Second Level students in this needs to be more appropriate. There is no other examination process from the Driver Theory Test to University exams where those undertaking the exams get to dictate that they can choose between doing the exam or not and take a chance on a predicted outcome.

By all means be cognisant of lost time and make exams more approachable and tolerable but the idea that someone can mention the words 'stress' and 'mental health' and an examination system that has by and large served well is under existential threat is not on.

I sincerely hope too that the Dept of Ed is an honest broker in this situation and is not just going through the process to keep students "working" until the bells tolls in June.

Looking around and seeing things like the GAA games exemption at level 5 not being renewed, and level 5 generally inevitably being continued, the comments on foreign travel before Christmas even, plus the lack of even basic planning for Orals/Practicals sometimes makes me wonder about where this is all a smoke and mirrors job and will we be back in school at all this year. Is fear of variant strains now calling the tune. But that's just thinking (hopefully mad thoughts) aloud.

Fair point.

Driver tests are going ahead. Even though it may cause a huge amount of stress to the people being tested.

What about having to submit a piece of work, like an essay, a poetry question, an exam question etc, before the exam, like how the continuous assessment components in history/geography and having it worth a certain amount of marks? It would be as good as a predicted grade from the teacher in determining a grade.

joebloggs32 · 13-02-2021 6:57pm

Hopontop wrote: »

Did anything ever come of that? Didn’t ASTI complain to ICTU?

I think there was a finding against the TUI and a fine was to be imposed

Random sample · 13-02-2021 7:02pm

In my school people left the asti in May and joined the tui in September to get around the issue of jumping ship. I don’t blame them, it got them a cid.

joebloggs32 · 13-02-2021 7:07pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

It's just a pity other branches weren't so honest! There's a septic atmosphere between them now and all teachers are the losers as the government continually divide and conquer.

Hasn't the new pay deal a facet where each union has to negotiate to get a bigger slice of the cake than other unions? The whole thing is divisive enough already, without needing MG (who I usually find great) pouring fuel onto the fire.

All he had to do was sidestep the question, would have been so easy.

I know in the case of the girl i refused it was a nod and wink job in a different branch as her boyfriend was friendly with a branch officer and as they were applying for a mortgage they let him in.
I had no knowledge of her private life, or her boyfriend until she started crying to me and giving out that i was being unfair. I simply told her i couldn't accept her application due to her membership of the Asti. I asked her what branch her boyfriend joined but she wouldn't tell me

Anyway, back on topic, the point about the students having too much of an influence on this process is on the money.
Of course they want to avoid the exams, but the PC brigade want to be down with the kids on this issue.
I heard one radio contributor today on Brendan O'Carroll refute the idea the the whole LC thing us being over hyped and blown out of proportion!

History Queen · 13-02-2021 9:13pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

It's just a pity other branches weren't so honest! There's a septic atmosphere between them now and all teachers are the losers as the government continually divide and conquer.

Hasn't the new pay deal a facet where each union has to negotiate to get a bigger slice of the cake than other unions? The whole thing is divisive enough already, without needing MG (who I usually find great) pouring fuel onto the fire.

All he had to do was sidestep the question, would have been so easy.

I agree with everything you posted here. Our branch was the same as joebloggs says above and our area rep got hell from our branch about it at the time, ( our branch secretary got wind of what was happening in other branches). There is no defence for it. It was disgraceful carry on

History Queen · 13-02-2021 9:15pm

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I think there was a finding against the TUI and a fine was to be imposed

A fine the TUI have yet to pay I think.

noplacehere · 13-02-2021 9:59pm

I can’t link yet I don’t think Edit: oh I can!

https://twitter.com/aoibhinn_ni_s/status/1360625810709839873?s=20

But Aoibhinn Ní shuileabhain tweeting earlier that the Children’s ombudsman met with the minister months ago requesting plans be put in place.

I cannot understand the media sometimes. This is absolute incompetency but somehow we are back discussing the TUI versus ASTI and the unions. And not the utter farce it is that talks are even needed by now

Treppen · 14-02-2021 1:21am

joebloggs32 wrote: »

You are more than entitled to join either union. Nothing can stop you.
Im in the TUI and about 15% of the members in my branch are from voluntary secondary schools. Even in the last week we got an application in from someone in a voluntary secondary school.

Ya that's all fine and dandy. But if you are sole tui in an asti school then you're out on your own if you run into difficulties in a school. A few times we've had our union area rep in. Many times we've had non union members coming looking for free advice from school reps also moaning about why the unions don't do anything.... we respectfully hand them the application forms.
Has to be strength in numbers. If there comes a tipping point in schools with more non-Union than Union, then it's open season on terms and conditions. Look around in New schools, it's all young teachers, and plenty of them revolving in and out..

I moan about other unions. But if I changed schools I'd go with the majority Union in a heartbeat.

am_zarathustra · 14-02-2021 1:56am

I'm in an etb school too, Head office wouldn't even talk to ASTI. The strength in numbers argument is solid too, I'd be wary of being alone, the logic of the union of numbers unfortunately outweighs my own personal feelings about the leadership.

I've been in a new school, your 100% right about them, your rights are dictated by the principal, it's completely random. Good principal, not a bother, bad principal.... unchecked power. I'd love to go back now with my experience!

r93kaey5p2izun · 14-02-2021 2:01am

The fact TUI doesn't only represent second level is seen as a problem by many, and I understand and share that concern in many ways. However, it is reality that within the ETB there are many dual provision post primary and FE centres, so the teachers in these centres need representation for both sectors. The ASTI does not provide this - a strength in the main that they are focused on one sector - but no use to the many teachers working across sectors, even if they are teaching predominantly post primary. The ASTI would not accept members from my school because of this, despite the school being officially considered dual union by the department when the split occurred over one of the agreements.

Personally I see the ASTI as the better union, but I also find the constant snide comments towards TUI members a little hard to take, when ASTI are not willing to represent all teachers either. Teachers are advised by both unions to join the majority union where one dominates, and in many cases they still have no option re union, except none. I think that should be borne in mind when making sweeping vitriolic statements about the other union, it really serves nobody but DES to foster the division they crave.

Beaulieu · 14-02-2021 2:27am

History Queen wrote: »

A fine the TUI have yet to pay I think.

I understand a settlement was paid over to the ASTI. Amazed it didnt make the news but I think it happened just before the pandemic started.

History Queen · 14-02-2021 8:22am

Beaulieu wrote: »

I understand a settlement was paid over to the ASTI. Amazed it didnt make the news but I think it happened just before the pandemic started.

Oh my apologies if I'm wrong on this. I could've sworn I heard something lately about it not being paid yet.

Wombatman · 14-02-2021 9:21am

Leaving Cert students to start a phased return to mainstream classes during the week of February 22nd.

https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/leaving-cert-will-go-ahead-and-schools-set-to-reopen-40088920.html

noplacehere · 14-02-2021 9:24am

Wombatman wrote: »

Leaving Cert students to start a phased return to mainstream classes during the week of February 22nd.

https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/leaving-cert-will-go-ahead-and-schools-set-to-reopen-40088920.html

I am so sick of reading crucial parts of our job in the bloody papers before we are told. And then there is absolutely no idea how this is meant to work. The supposedly confidential talks were leaking all over the place too

History Queen · 14-02-2021 9:25am

I can't access the article as it is behind a paywall but the first paragraph raises a lot of questions about how the system will work.

"Leaving Certificate students are to be offered the choice of calculated grades, a written examination, or both, after talks about holding State exams gathered pace this weekend. The Cabinet is expected to sign off on the dual approach at a meeting on Tuesday."

I wonder how they are making it fair? And how the choice will work.

annamarie2013 · 14-02-2021 9:53am

Could it have something to do with estimating grades on the oral and practical components? No mention of the Junior Cert.

Rosita · 14-02-2021 10:49am

noplacehere wrote: »

I am so sick of reading crucial parts of our job in the bloody papers before we are told. And then there is absolutely no idea how this is meant to work. The supposedly confidential talks were leaking all over the place too

Yeah, I hear you. Mind you I do remember a front page story in the Sunday Times last April saying LCs were back in school in May and it didn't happen. Could be in the paper and still complete fabrication.

Just put and about now and had a look at the front page of the Indo. Written as if the thing about the ASTI never happened and all will be signed off on Tuesday offering students a choice between predicted grades and a written exam and possibly a third option of a mix. There was a loose comment the other day from a "government source" that nothing had ben promised but nothing was made of it in the media.

I am dubious about plans to open schools when I hear government trying to avoid written exams. If they really thought schools would open shortly why not promote the traditional exam? Still plenty of time with necessary adjustments.

Bobtheman · 14-02-2021 10:54am

More stuff in the indo today.
Push for hybrid over the exams.
Push for return week of Feb 22nd for LC.
Subject to health advice.
Given flip flops etc let's just wait and see.
I'm curious about Nphet. I presume advice is leaning towards an opening.

km79 · 14-02-2021 11:04am

Bobtheman wrote: »

More stuff in the indo today.
Push for hybrid over the exams.
Push for return week of Feb 22nd for LC.
Subject to health advice.
Given flip flops etc let's just wait and see.
I'm curious about Nphet. I presume advice is leaning towards an opening.

It’s almost certain now Leaving Certs will return to classrooms mid week of the week of Feb 22nd or on Monday March 1st.
With public health advice it should be March 1st at the very earliest.
So I’ll go for Weds Feb 22nd and the minister gets her magical 3 day week after all

Rosita · 14-02-2021 11:09am

km79 wrote: »

It’s almost certain now Leaving Certs will return to classrooms mid week of the week of Feb 22nd or on Monday March 1st.

Sorry, have you a source for this other than the Independent story?

km79 · 14-02-2021 11:15am

Rosita wrote: »

Sorry, have you a source for this other than the Independent story?

Nope apart from the TUI coming out ahead of the story saying the exact same thing.
That they are open to LC return the week of Feb 22nd. They didn’t pluck that from the sky

Random sample · 14-02-2021 11:23am

I’m fine with back to school that week... I’m not fine with offering a choice between exams and predicted grades.

I just offered my daughter a choice between her spelling test and me guessing how many she would get wrong and she picked the guessing.... leaving certs will do the same.

noplacehere · 14-02-2021 11:25am

If we are coming back the 22nd can we please know now? I doubt I’m the only teacher who was about to get stuck into planning for remote learning. It’s different if we are in the room and a total waste of my time if I’m going to have to redo it all by next weekend ðŸ€¯

am_zarathustra · 14-02-2021 11:26am

Choice is detrimental to everyones education! I'd be teaching two completely different cohorts in the same class with different assessment needs. Half and half makes sense but full PG are just not necessary

Treppen · 14-02-2021 11:26am

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

The fact TUI doesn't only represent second level is seen as a problem by many, and I understand and share that concern in many ways. However, it is reality that within the ETB there are many dual provision post primary and FE centres, so the teachers in these centres need representation for both sectors. The ASTI does not provide this - a strength in the main that they are focused on one sector - but no use to the many teachers working across sectors, even if they are teaching predominantly post primary. The ASTI would not accept members from my school because of this, despite the school being officially considered dual union by the department when the split occurred over one of the agreements.

Personally I see the ASTI as the better union, but I also find the constant snide comments towards TUI members a little hard to take, when ASTI are not willing to represent all teachers either. Teachers are advised by both unions to join the majority union where one dominates, and in many cases they still have no option re union, except none. I think that should be borne in mind when making sweeping vitriolic statements about the other union, it really serves nobody but DES to foster the division they crave.

Ya I do snipe at the TUI but that's always leadership. In the vast majority of cases we all did the same hdip,pde,pgde,pme,BEd and all went to the same riviting lectures in the same colleges. I think it was more by luck and circumstance that teachers ended up in certain schools ergo Union.

Conversely the TUI refuses to represent privately paid teachers. So in relation to the above quote the TUI aren't willing to represent all teachers also. Maybe that's changed.

am_zarathustra · 14-02-2021 11:28am

noplacehere wrote: »

If we are coming back the 22nd can we please know now? I doubt I’m the only teacher who was about to get stuck into planning for remote learning. It’s different if we are in the room and a total waste of my time if I’m going to have to redo it all by next weekend &#55356;&#56367;

Between other classes online, childcare and travel a lot of schools will initially need block classes for 6th years of some form, this will require planning too. Also I'd be changing my whole tact if we are going CG or PG or whatever, people need time to work on schemes if they want any form of quality education to come out of this mess

Rosita · 14-02-2021 11:35am

km79 wrote: »

Nope apart from the TUI coming out ahead of the story saying the exact same thing.
That they are open to LC return the week of Feb 22nd. They didn’t pluck that from the sky

Maybe they didn't pluck it from the sky. But then again maybe they did. It's the day after midterm, if you're going to pluck something from the sky it's a natural landmark for teachers to expect something might happen. Probably more natural than thinking in terms of 5th March which is the actual end of the current period of restrictions.

With respect, I think it's a straw in the wind rather than a sign that "it's almost certain".

km79 · 14-02-2021 11:37am

Rosita wrote: »

Maybe they didn't pluck it from the sky. But then again maybe they did. It's the day after midterm, if you're going to pluck something from the sky it's a natural landmark for teachers to expect something might happen. Probably more natural than thinking in terms of 5th March which is the actual end of the current period of restrictions.

With respect, I think it's a straw in the wind rather than a sign that "it's almost certain".

They made the statement midweek after the round of talks

km79 · 14-02-2021 11:40am

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Between other classes online, childcare and travel a lot of schools will initially need block classes for 6th years of some form, this will require planning too. Also I'd be changing my whole tact if we are going CG or PG or whatever, people need time to work on schemes if they want any form of quality education to come out of this mess

From the TUI guidance regarding those who teach special classes allow with timetable of mainstream classes
“ Where a teacher of a special class would normally as part of her/his timetable leave that class to deliver remote or online learning to students who are still learning at home, the school should facilitate that teacher in delivering that learning from the school premises or from home, where the timetable allows for travel.“

In other words teachers go in and teach whomever is physically in the building. Then if their timetable allows they can go home to remote teach the online groups . If they have them straight after they remote teach from them school building .
Childcare is dealt with further down . It basically says use all types of leave available if there are childcare issues .
Year groups will be staggering back over a few weeks . It’s not realistic to do a new TT every few days .

rainbowtrout · 14-02-2021 11:41am

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Choice is detrimental to everyones education! I'd be teaching two completely different cohorts in the same class with different assessment needs. Half and half makes sense but full PG are just not necessary

Yes that’s crossed my mind many times in the last few weeks. If a student decides next week that they are going to go for a predicted grade, how do you engage them in class for the next 4 months?

I can think of many students who are unmotivated, or dislike a particular subject or who won’t be using a subject for points or who aren’t going to college who might opt for predicted grades as the easy way out.

Will there be people who are going for high points courses and doing all HL except for example Irish who opt for the predicted grade here so they effectively drop the subject so they can work on their other ones?

am_zarathustra · 14-02-2021 11:46am

km79 wrote: »

From the TUI guidance regarding those who teach special classes allow with timetable of mainstream classes
“ Where a teacher of a special class would normally as part of her/his timetable leave that class to deliver remote or online learning to students who are still learning at home, the school should facilitate that teacher in delivering that learning from the school premises or from home, where the timetable allows for travel.“

In other words teachers go in and teach whomever is physically in the building. Then if their timetable allows they can go home to remote teach the online groups . If they have them straight after they remote teach from them school building .
Childcare is dealt with further down . It basically says use all types of leave available if there are childcare issues .
Year groups will be staggering back over a few weeks . It’s not realistic to do a new TT every few days .

Blocking classes for 6th years for two weeks would be doable, after that it would have to revert to the normal timetable. I can't see kids taking the risk of school on the 22nd for PE or religion etc and there is a big difference for someone organising childcare to try and do it for 40/1hour every day or two blocks of 2 hours twice a week. The quality of my teaching to other years would be severely effected if I had to teach my normal timetable to LCs. Internet is not as good as in my house and I have 5 pieces of equipment I use daily to teach my subject effectively. The other benefit of blocking is S and S, until half the school is back there will be no capacity for this. What is a teacher rings in sick? How does lunchtime supervision work? Proportional blocking without PE etc would also allow extra time for subjects with large practical components, they will be under pressure for sure.

am_zarathustra · 14-02-2021 11:51am

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes that’s crossed my mind many times in the last few weeks. If a student decides next week that they are going to go for a predicted grade, how do you engage them in class for the next 4 months?

I can think of many students who are unmotivated, or dislike a particular subject or who won’t be using a subject for points or who aren’t going to college who might opt for predicted grades as the easy way out.

Will there be people who are going for high points courses and doing all HL except for example Irish who opt for the predicted grade here so they effectively drop the subject so they can work on their other ones?

This will be a massive problem in some schools. You could end up with 4/5 messers, taking predictive grades without understanding them and then disrupting classes. Also the amount of crying at teachers thats going to go on will be shocking. Thats before we even start with pressure from parents. Maybe if they have to sit the exams but can choose the CG but then why not just make it 50/50, motivation to get back to work and also an independent terminal exam. Why is this not the obvious solution?

deiseindublin · 14-02-2021 12:26pm

I thought I do said it was
1. Exams Or
2. CG Or
3. Both?

Devil will be in the detail tbh.

How long will CG only students be in school?
Will exam students have access to their teachers after CGs?
When will CG results come out?
When will exams be?
Will exam results be out for college entry 2021?

am_zarathustra · 14-02-2021 12:37pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

I thought I do said it was
1. Exams Or
2. CG Or
3. Both?

Devil will be in the detail tbh.

How long will CG only students be in school?
Will exam students have access to their teachers after CGs?
When will CG results come out?
When will exams be?
Will exam results be out for college entry 2021?

To be honest if we don't have an answers to some or all of the above this will cause chaos for students, parents and teachers.

Str8outtaWuhan · 14-02-2021 12:45pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

I thought I do said it was
1. Exams Or
2. CG Or
3. Both?

Devil will be in the detail tbh.

How long will CG only students be in school?
Will exam students have access to their teachers after CGs?
When will CG results come out?
When will exams be?
Will exam results be out for college entry 2021?

that looks like an absolute **** show, hopefully the high court cases will put CG/PG out of its misery

I pity any teacher having to deal with all those combinations in the one class

Bobtheman · 14-02-2021 12:51pm

I think predicted grades would not be issued until May. That much I would be certain of. Otherwise why would a kid bother sticking around? Party time etc.
Unless I'm corralled I'd inflate away. Grade wise.

Rosita · 14-02-2021 12:59pm

Predicted grades will have to be put through the slow process same as last year where the teacher's prediction is not necessarily the same grade they'll actually get. Given the time that takes I'm not sure Predicted Grades is compatible with a June exam. I'd say the government is looking at the exact same arrangement as last year with an exam for a handful of people later in the year.

Str8outtaWuhan · 14-02-2021 1:03pm

Rosita wrote: »

Predicted grades will have to be put through the slow process same as last year where the teacher's prediction is not necessarily the same grade they'll actually get. Given the time that takes I'm not sure Predicted Grades is compatible with a June exam. I'd say the government is looking at the exact same arrangement as last year with an exam for a handful of people later in the year.

barristers will have a field day if schools aren't subjected to school profiling.

ascophyllum · 14-02-2021 1:15pm

I can only imagine what will happen if you're doing an assessment in April say, and you return a test to a student with a grade of 40% or so.
Next day parents in, saying they wont accept that result, it's the teacher's fault etc. wasn't taught correctly, a hundred different excuses.

I had a student some years ago who need to improve their written work greatly but dismissed every bit of feedback I gave them, insisting their work was fine, mock exams corrected externally - wouldn't 'accept' that result either, claiming it wasn't marked correctly etc. I could do no more, of course they got a very low grade in the state exam, refused to listen to anyone. That's going to happen, a lot.

Wombatman · 14-02-2021 1:38pm

Rosita wrote: »

Predicted grades will have to be put through the slow process same as last year where the teacher's prediction is not necessarily the same grade they'll actually get. Given the time that takes I'm not sure Predicted Grades is compatible with a June exam. I'd say the government is looking at the exact same arrangement as last year with an exam for a handful of people later in the year.

June exams were referenced by the TUI representative on the radio yesterday. Unlike last year, the students who do the exams should be able to enter college in 2021, and not have to postpone for a year. Exams will have to be around June in order to mark and review, so that points are ready for CAO.

Wombatman · 14-02-2021 1:40pm

Are most schools going to crack ahead with mocks as soon as the LCs return?

Smacruairi · 14-02-2021 2:12pm

Wombatman wrote: »

Are most schools going to crack ahead with mocks as soon as the LCs return?

Schools don't even know when they're going to be back. Each school will do different things in the absence of any form of instruction. Can I ask you Wombat if you have an LC student in the family?

km79 · 14-02-2021 2:19pm

It’s strange that none of this is being carried across the other news outlets ?

Str8outtaWuhan · 14-02-2021 2:23pm

km79 wrote: »

It’s strange that none of this is being carried across the other news outlets ?

Nothing on rte radio 1 this week program about it.

rainbowtrout · 14-02-2021 2:30pm

Rosita wrote: »

Predicted grades will have to be put through the slow process same as last year where the teacher's prediction is not necessarily the same grade they'll actually get. Given the time that takes I'm not sure Predicted Grades is compatible with a June exam. I'd say the government is looking at the exact same arrangement as last year with an exam for a handful of people later in the year.

Or offering the exams in June knowing the majority would probably opt for predicted grades

Wombatman · 14-02-2021 2:43pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

Schools don't even know when they're going to be back. Each school will do different things in the absence of any form of instruction. Can I ask you Wombat if you have an LC student in the family?

Yes. Why do you ask?

Rosita · 14-02-2021 3:21pm

Wombatman wrote: »

Are most schools going to crack ahead with mocks as soon as the LCs return?

I am familiar with plans for three schools including my own and all have ruled out mocks. Certainly in the case of my own school it was felt that they were underprepared anyway for such a full-scale exam and that mocks would consume a lot of time for limited value. Just not knowing when we will return was a significant element in the decision.

trihead · 14-02-2021 3:33pm

In case you were expecting a decision/details on Tuesday after the cabinet meeting.

https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-decision-5354121-Feb2021/

km79 · 14-02-2021 3:37pm

trihead wrote: »

In case you were expecting a decision/details on Tuesday after the cabinet meeting.

https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-decision-5354121-Feb2021/

Which is completely at odds with what MM said yesterday

Rosita · 14-02-2021 3:38pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Or offering the exams in June knowing the majority would probably opt for predicted grades

Heard Brian Mooney on the radio today (incidentally he seems convinced that teachers have loads of data for Predicted Grades - must be one of those teachers who puts great store in the end-of-chapter exam, otherwise not sure where he's getting that from) and that's what he seemed to imply.

But given the time it took between starting the process last year (albeit the basic processes are in place at least) and results being available it'll be fair going to have results in time for students to make a properly informed decision about sitting an exam while trying to decide if they should or shouldn't prepare for an exam in April/May.

The way forward for LC2021

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