The way forward for LC2021

Mardy Bum

Bobtheman wrote: »

If they can do an in school exam in May why the hell can't they do the leaving??

Different liabilities. SEC are not involved. No outside candidates. Also huge financial savings will accrue.

Str8outtaWuhan

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Answer due next week following the Cabinet meeting. I imagine the English system will be copied. In school exams in May and continuous assessment used as metrics.

Isn't there a legal requirement of ~167 days of teaching , how will DES get around that?

km79

The subgroup of the Advisory Group of stakeholders on planning for the state examinations 2021 held a further online meeting today, Tuesday 2 February.

The meeting was attended by the Minister for Education, Norma Foley TD.

The subgroup includes representatives of students, parents, teachers, school leadership and management bodies, the State Examinations Commission (SEC) and the Department of Education. The subgroup was formed to consider in greater depth issues relating to planning towards the 2021 examinations. The Department of Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science was also represented.

Today’s meeting considered the assessment arrangements for the 2021 Junior Cycle and Leaving Certificate. This included exploration of a number of options for the Leaving Certificate, which sought to take account of the impact of school closures on allowing the examinations to be run in as close a manner as in a normal year.

The Minister thanked the members of the subgroup for their continuing work and ongoing engagement in the efforts to plan for the examinations in 2021.

A further meeting of the subgroup is planned for later this week.


“In as close a manner as a normal year “

deiseindublin

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Also huge financial savings will accrue.

I think that's the bottom line. I wonder has anyone done an FOI request on the savings in 2020?

Mrsmum

I asked my son earlier where were they on the course. He said more or less finished with Irish and Music according to his teachers. Four chapters in Maths to do, two poets to do in English and working big time at creative writing at the moment, Biology teacher says his class are way ahead of her other class but tons of course still to do, same Geography. That's mightn't be the full picture but it's where he thinks they are. Would that be kindof the norm or are they in good shape/bad shape ? These are honours subjects.

History Queen

Mrsmum wrote: »

I asked my son earlier where were they on the course. He said more or less finished with Irish and Music according to his teachers. Four chapters in Maths to do, two poets to do in English and working big time at creative writing at the moment, Biology teacher says his class are way ahead of her other class but tons of course still to do, same Geography. That's mightn't be the full picture but it's where he thinks they are. Would that be kindof the norm or are they in good shape/bad shape ? These are honours subjects.

Regarding English that's more or less where I'd be with a class this time of year during normal times. I can't speak for the other subjects.

am_zarathustra

Mrsmum wrote: »

I asked my son earlier where were they on the course. He said more or less finished with Irish and Music according to his teachers. Four chapters in Maths to do, two poets to do in English and working big time at creative writing at the moment, Biology teacher says his class are way ahead of her other class but tons of course still to do, same Geography. That's mightn't be the full picture but it's where he thinks they are. Would that be kindof the norm or are they in good shape/bad shape ? These are honours subjects.

There or thereabouts, I teach two of those subjects to LC higher level. I will say I cut parts of the course, orbam doing them in a very basic way given the changes to options on the paper. Mine would be very unlucky with the way the paper fell to not be able to answer a full set of questions already, even without the next few months. Bio and Geog courses won't need to be finished with the way the changes have effected the paper

Maths is trickier, you could get stung picking and choosing so that course will have to be finished, somehow.... But I once got a class into 6th year who'd done no HL and we managed to do the course at breakneck speed in one year, not ideal but they did pretty well.

Treppen

Mrsmum wrote: »

I asked my son earlier where were they on the course. He said more or less finished with Irish and Music according to his teachers. Four chapters in Maths to do, two poets to do in English and working big time at creative writing at the moment, Biology teacher says his class are way ahead of her other class but tons of course still to do, same Geography. That's mightn't be the full picture but it's where he thinks they are. Would that be kindof the norm or are they in good shape/bad shape ? These are honours subjects.

If he's doing music and everything 'done' tell him to keep handing up Q1 compositions, that's usually the decider between H1 and H2.

PoolDude

Question: Are teachers being actively consulted here by the unions?

I'm seeing a number of teachers feeling they are not being consulted.

Mrsmum

Treppen wrote: »

If he's doing music and everything 'done' tell him to keep handing up Q1 compositions, that's usually the decider between H1 and H2.

I have to admit I thought Music would be an easier subject and he definately thought it would be a walk in the park. Turns out that's not the case ! I'll pass on your tip, tks.

History Queen

PoolDude wrote: »

Question: Are teachers being actively consulted here by the unions?

I'm seeing a number of teachers feeling they are not being consulted.

Well branch meetings and committees are where consultation would most often happen in my union so I suppose it depends how active you are. Our staff rep good to update staff of what hapoens at branch meetings too if people didn't attend.

Edit:sorry just reread I think that came across as condescending, not what I intended! I just meant I don't think individual members are being contacted or anything but that if you are involved in your union you might be more in the know than those that aren't.

Wombatman

km79 wrote: »

........

The subgroup includes representatives of students, parents, teachers, school leadership and management bodies, the State Examinations Commission (SEC) and the Department of Education.

........

We pretty much know the students union is calling for choice, but does anyone know what position the parents group is taking?

Fred Cryton

why are they so afraid of an IQ test or an aptitude test (such as GMAT) which tests ability at English or Math and can't really be studied for.

Could it be because it will reveal the truth that fluid intelligence is fundamentally genetically determined and education after a certain point is really just messing around the edges. More book reading won't make one smarter i'm afraid.

PoolDude

History Queen wrote: »

Well branch meetings and committees are where consultation would most often happen in my union so I suppose it depends how active you are. Our staff rep good to update staff of what hapoens at branch meetings too if people didn't attend.

Edit: sorry just reread I think that came across as condescending, not what I intended! I just menat I don't think individual members are being contacted or anything but that if you are involved in your union you might be more in the know than those that aren't.

Don't worry it came across fine - I was curious as I'm hearing teachers saying the Unions are not representing their view and they've not had much consultation on this topic. Interestingly, just now I was sent the below link and it also calls out that teachers suggesting an alternative approach to term time 'were met with a deafening silence from education chiefs and unions last night'.

Maybe there's nothing in it but it (Unions not listening to Teachers) seems to be popping up a bit in the last few days

https://extra.ie/2021/02/03/news/irish-news/teachers-early-easter-holidays

indolent

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Could it be because it will reveal the truth that fluid intelligence is fundamentally genetically determined and education after a certain point is really just messing around the edges. More book reading won't make one smarter i'm afraid.

Maybe because, assuming a basic level of literacy and numeracy, aptitude alone will not get you through a college degree.

The leaving cert is fair insofar as if you do the work you're rewarded. Reading is an integral part of many courses. The best doctors, teachers etc. are rarely the most intelligent but rather the most dedicated, passionate. You haven't a clue tbh.

Treppen

Fred Cryton wrote: »

why are they so afraid of an IQ test or an aptitude test (such as GMAT) which tests ability at English or Math and can't really be studied for.

Could it be because it will reveal the truth that fluid intelligence is fundamentally genetically determined and education after a certain point is really just messing around the edges. More book reading won't make one smarter i'm afraid.

Aptitude doesn't measure Attainment.

If you think learning is "book reading" then you have to ask who is doing the messing around the edges on the thread

Treppen

PoolDude wrote: »

Don't worry it came across fine - I was curious as I'm hearing teachers saying the Unions are not representing their view and they've not had much consultation on this topic. Interestingly, just now I was sent the below link and it also calls out that teachers suggesting an alternative approach to term time 'were met with a deafening silence from education chiefs and unions last night'.

Maybe there's nothing in it but it (Unions not listening to Teachers) seems to be popping up a bit in the last few days

https://extra.ie/2021/02/03/news/irish-news/teachers-early-easter-holidays

Ignore that.
Unions are the teachers, so there's a process to go through if you want your voice heard, rather than ranting on vft etc.
ASTI sent us out surveys last week. And have consistently surveyd members.

Rosita

Fred Cryton wrote: »

why are they so afraid of an IQ test or an aptitude test (such as GMAT) which tests ability at English or Math and can't really be studied for.

Could it be because it will reveal the truth that fluid intelligence is fundamentally genetically determined and education after a certain point is really just messing around the edges. More book reading won't make one smarter i'm afraid.

This misses the point spectacularly by conflating education and intelligence. School and the LC reflects the former and the multiple layers involved such as aptitude, application, attention-span, socialisation, etc.

Not ever sure about anything which attempts to measure intelligence in the abstract. I would have high verbal ability but that has come though specific aspects of my education. Doesn't necessarily make me more 'intelligent' than the next person nor more able in the context of a specific course/career. To my mind intelligence is quite contextual - one person can be brilliant at certain things but brutal at others. Education assessments say far more. And knowledge appears more useful and definable than intelligence, though the latter is rhetorically very attractive to some especially if they can create the illusion that they have it in spades themselves.

Wombatman

Journal.ie Poll

Poll: Should Leaving Cert students be given the option of sitting the exams or taking calculated grades?

https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-poll-4-5343442-Feb2021/

Bobtheman

PoolDude wrote: »

Question: Are teachers being actively consulted here by the unions?

I'm seeing a number of teachers feeling they are not being consulted.

No consultation but I'd say teachers being teachers they are giving their opinions.
I presume whenever the proposal comes out we might be asked.
Personally I'm against hybrids. I'm for either exams in July or predicted grades but not a mix.
I see no reason why the exam can't happen in July with further adjustments to the paper. None

Bobtheman

Wombatman wrote: »

Journal.ie Poll

Poll: Should Leaving Cert students be given the option of sitting the exams or taking calculated grades?

https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-poll-4-5343442-Feb2021/

A poll of the common man. Yeah let's do policy by opinion polls

Wombatman

Bobtheman wrote: »

A poll of the common man. Yeah let's do policy by opinion polls

Elections are glorified opinion polls don't you know.

French Toast

Wombatman wrote: »

Journal.ie Poll

Poll: Should Leaving Cert students be given the option of sitting the exams or taking calculated grades?

https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-poll-4-5343442-Feb2021/

Very few calling for predicated grades alone.

PoolDude

French Toast wrote: »

Very few calling for predicated grades alone.

Yet it’s going to be close to the ISSU poll of 80% wanting an alternative

Wombatman

French Toast wrote: »

Very few calling for predicated grades alone.

Yeah. I guess people would see it as unfair seeing as they had the choice to mix and match last year.

Bobtheman

Wombatman wrote: »

Yeah. I guess people would see it as unfair seeing as they had the choice to mix and match last year.

You mean we stop teaching and giving them a predicted grade now with the option of an exam in November?

Bobtheman

The only model for PG is to allow a few assessments and then end teaching. However how these assessments would work is beyond me.

Rosita

Bobtheman wrote: »

The only model for PG is to allow a few assessments and then end teaching. However how these assessments would work is beyond me.

Last year when predicted grades were used in-school summer and christmas exams were considered admissible and relevant even though every school would have had their own.

Presumably the 'few assessments' could be three in-class exams agreed across subject departments and overseen (to the extent that they can really oversee them) by Principals. They could have as much validity as any normal house exams and would certainly encourage LCs to toe the line to the end knowing that that their predicted grade revolved around them.

No doubt there'd be subject variations which would provide challenges but I think as a broad concept it is feasible. Like with most things much depends on when we get back to school. Would be hard to have three if not back in early March and whether orals/practicals etc. have been cancelled which it is increasingly looking like they'll have to be since we have no examiners appointed.

Smacruairi

The catch 22. Harder working schools who want to do it right will come up with systems that will make it harder to cheat, and mark harder. This will lower the students results in comparison to lazier schools who will just throw any grade at the problem and call it a day. These grades might be the same or higher then the previous groups grades, and then you'll have parents wondering why the hard school didn't just do the easy thing.

Literally no way to win this one.

Mardy Bum

Smacruairi wrote: »

The catch 22. Harder working schools who want to do it right will come up with systems that will make it harder to cheat, and mark harder. This will lower the students results in comparison to lazier schools who will just throw any grade at the problem and call it a day. These grades might be the same or higher then the previous groups grades, and then you'll have parents wondering why the hard school didn't just do the easy thing.

Literally no way to win this one.

This is the main problem that has not been mentioned at all in the media. Some schools benefited hugely from Calculated Grades and then used them as advertising.