The way forward for LC2021

carr62

I'm sure they did, Mardy Bum. But do parents take much notice of a sprinkling of good results? My kids go to a DEIS school, and when they were looking for a secondary school, we often saw claims from DEIS schools that they had students achieve >500 points in the Leaving. We felt those claims said more about the individual student than the school. Now, a school that had a high percentage of students consistantly getting those marks is a different thing entirely. As it turned out, we picked the school that the kids felt most comfortable in. It was far from being the most high achieving school we visited, but we felt it was the happiest.

Smacruairi

Carr, it depends obviously, but look at the twitter feeds of schools around exam results time, that will answer your question. Schools are quasi businesses now, you gotta keep your numbers up, but also by being "better" than the school down the road you automatically half the problems you get with parents and kids who would tell you how they would run the place better.

carr62

I guess so, Smacruairi. We are in a very rural area, and maybe it's different here than for city schools. Here, people know the better performing schools and many will travel to them. I honestly don't think many would change their mind about sending their kids to the convent or CBS because the community college got 3 kids over the 500 point mark last year, but guess I could be wrong. Seems to me that schools get a " name", and it would take more than a year of predicted grades to change that in parents' minds.

Smacruairi

We already had 3 kids jump to the institute as soon as we went into Lockdown as they felt their online provision might be better. Certain parents will take every action to seemingly improve results for their kids, not that I can blame them. I wouldn't take any "name" for granted in our area.

indolent

Predicated grades based on something like JC results would remove any ambiguity around this or cries of unfairness and favoritism. It is far from ideal but they would retain the option of sitting the LC.
Why isn't this being considered ? There is literally nothing else to go on.

carr62

Do we know when they are going to announce what the arrangements for the Leaving Cert are? Is this a wild notion, but would it be just as easy to let them all in to college to do their preferred course? Assuming they might still be online, would it matter how many were taking the course, and I assume those not able for it would simply drop out after failing exams. Probably fraught with problems, just an idea.

Mardy Bum

indolent wrote: »

Predicated grades based on something like JC results would remove any ambiguity around this or cries of unfairness and favoritism. It is far from ideal but they would retain the option of sitting the LC.
Why isn't this being considered ? There is literally nothing else to go on.

JC results are included in the algorithm.

rainbowtrout

carr62 wrote: »

Do we know when they are going to announce what the arrangements for the Leaving Cert are? Is this a wild notion, but would it be just as easy to let them all in to college to do their preferred course? Assuming they might still be online, would it matter how many were taking the course, and I assume those not able for it would simply drop out after failing exams. Probably fraught with problems, just an idea.

Because you'd have thousands signing up for the likes of medicine and dentistry which don't have enough space or resources to cater for unlimited students. Also I suspect it would probably destroy ITs. Like if you can sign up for any course you want, then you'll just have everyone going 'Sure I may as well go to Trinity' or something like that.

If you were to leave everyone in, you would have an astronomical failure rate to cut the numbers back for second year and all of those students would be trying to get back into the system the following year. Colleges just can't cope with those wide swings.

carr62

Absolutely see your point rainbow trout. I think I typed before I really thought!

shesty

Well on the other side of that question, DO we have any idea when they are going announce LC plans? Because it feels like the rest of us aren't going to hear a thing until LCs have been sorted.Seems like the other 5 secondary school years, and all the primary school years just have to sit and wait until the LC wrangling is over and then we might be in line to get some idea of a return plan.

I am at the end of my tether here with the working/schooling/parenting thing, kids are so in need of their normality back.We desperately need some idea of how much longer this has to go on for, before we crack. (Sorry, it has been a very long day)

PoolDude

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Because you'd have thousands signing up for the likes of medicine and dentistry which don't have enough space or resources to cater for unlimited students. Also I suspect it would probably destroy ITs. Like if you can sign up for any course you want, then you'll just have everyone going 'Sure I may as well go to Trinity' or something like that.

If you were to leave everyone in, you would have an astronomical failure rate to cut the numbers back for second year and all of those students would be trying to get back into the system the following year. Colleges just can't cope with those wide swings.

They can’t apply for restricted courses now the deadline is gone I think so that rules out everyone applying for medicine etc.

Also given the deadline has gone maybe there is a way to limit changes if it was open access or predicted grades

rainbowtrout

PoolDude wrote: »

They can’t apply for restricted courses now the deadline is gone I think so that rules out everyone applying for medicine etc.

Also given the deadline has gone maybe there is a way to limit changes if it was open access or predicted grades

It might rule out a small number of courses but there would still be a pile in to other courses, e.g. dentistry, veterinary.

It wouldn't eliminate issues like that or a lopsided application to universities over ITs, and 78,000 people have applied to the CAO this year. There aren't enough places for everyone.

deiseindublin

How many college places are there I wonder, for that 78k? Did I see somewhere, one of the papers, that they reckon with extra places released, there would only be a 1000 place shortage?

am_zarathustra

PoolDude wrote: »

They can’t apply for restricted courses now the deadline is gone I think so that rules out everyone applying for medicine etc.

Also given the deadline has gone maybe there is a way to limit changes if it was open access or predicted grades

Colleges in ireland have dreadful staff to student ratios, hockies us in the international ranking every year so adding a rake of students is not really an option, nor are the college's obliged to fix a problem the department caused by not having multiple contingencies in place. Veterinary would be inundated too

It's also taboo on the modern education system but there is aptitude to consider, simple things like memory matter a huge amount in medicine, the sciences, engineering etc in understanding conceptual frameworks, our short term memories are so limited that we depend on the schemas stored in our long term memories to allow any real depth or critical understanding.......you should test these skills before allowing someone to enter these courses

I'm not saying you need 625 points to be a doctor but I believe someone with the aptitude and application to do that is probably better placed to succeed than someone with 450 points. I think someone with a high honour in HL maths, physics and maths with, by and large, make a better engineer than someone without.

.....before everyone starts with the straw man, yes there are exceptions to this but the college's can only educate a certain number every year....it's expensive to the taxpayer....it's in everyone's interest for us the pick the people most likely to succeed

Mrsmum

I think there are many variables. Some students who get very high points have been really hothoused, special schools, grinds, grinds and more grinds and what not. Stripped back without the extra help they may not be as smart as a student who missed out on a place on the same high level course and the former student may end up dropping out. Or a student who absolutely killed themselves for the LC year may find, and this I am familiar with, that even though they got the place on the course with loads of points to spare, it's just too difficult for them because slogging your behind off in the LC doesn't always translate into the natural appitude for a particular course.

Mardy Bum

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Colleges in ireland have dreadful staff to student ratios, hockies us in the international ranking every year so adding a rake of students is not really an option, nor are the college's obliged to fix a problem the department caused by not having multiple contingencies in place. Veterinary would be inundated too

It's also taboo on the modern education system but there is aptitude to consider, simple things like memory matter a huge amount in medicine, the sciences, engineering etc in understanding conceptual frameworks, our short term memories are so limited that we depend on the schemas stored in our long term memories to allow any real depth or critical understanding.......you should test these skills before allowing someone to enter these courses

I'm not saying you need 625 points to be a doctor but I believe someone with the aptitude and application to do that is probably better placed to succeed than someone with 450 points. I think someone with a high honour in HL maths, physics and maths with, by and large, make a better engineer than someone without.

.....before everyone starts with the straw man, yes there are exceptions to this but the college's can only educate a certain number every year....it's expensive to the taxpayer....it's in everyone's interest for us the pick the people most likely to succeed

Memory is the foundation of learning. This is a fact. There are people with very limited working memory compared with others who will struggle with concepts unless the curriculum has been sequenced extraordinarily well.

carr62

So, given all these very reasonable points, what do people think is going to be the most likely outcome for Leaving Cert 2021?

rainbowtrout

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think there are many variables. Some students who get very high points have been really hothoused, special schools, grinds, grinds and more grinds and what not. Stripped back without the extra help they may not be as smart as a student who missed out on a place on the same high level course and the former student may end up dropping out. Or a student who absolutely killed themselves for the LC year may find, and this I am familiar with, that even though they got the place on the course with loads of points to spare, it's just too difficult for them because slogging your behind off in the LC doesn't always translate into the natural appitude for a particular course.

Yes, but you can apply that at all levels of achievement. Some get the 600 points without grinds, grind schools etc. Some enter high points courses and discover that it's not a career they want to pursue, plenty of people find that in the lower points courses too, but there isn't as much of a story made about that.

am_zarathustra

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think there are many variables. Some students who get very high points have been really hothoused, special schools, grinds, grinds and more grinds and what not. Stripped back without the extra help they may not be as smart as a student who missed out on a place on the same high level course and the former student may end up dropping out. Or a student who absolutely killed themselves for the LC year may find, and this I am familiar with, that even though they got the place on the course with loads of points to spare, it's just too difficult for them because slogging your behind off in the LC doesn't always translate into the natural appitude for a particular course.

But by and large a student with a large amount of points, with the caveat i would like, of it being in related subjects will be more lockly to succeed than one who doesn't. It's a numbers game, we play numbers with medication, roads, schools, education, prisons, sentencing, ......laws and regulations are not made for individuals nor can a system designed for college entry be based on exceptions to the rule.

I've also known a lot of parents pay a hell of a lot of money to get their kids 400 points in the best school, with grinds in every subject. A good school and grinds won't always translate to exceptional points, it's just more likely too, just like the kid with excellent grades is more likely to succeed in a college course.

The real issue with the private schools is they make every kid go to college, even those in the lower quartile who are probably not suited. These kids would be served but a different type of focus. But their parents paid me ear bleeding money to keep the kids in HL maths to scrape a pass.

But regardless, the majority of students in Ireland and neither in private schools or DEIS, they are in normal schools where you will need drive and ability to get you to actuary or vetinary

Mrsmum

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes, but you can apply that at all levels of achievement. Some get the 600 points without grinds, grind schools etc. Some enter high points courses and discover that it's not a career they want to pursue, plenty of people find that in the lower points courses too, but there isn't as much of a story made about that.

Of course, I wouldn't dispute any of that but it doesn't make what I have said any less true.

rainbowtrout

Mrsmum wrote: »

Of course, I wouldn't dispute any of that but it doesn't make what I have said any less true.

But what do you propose as a solution? Students getting the high points do have generally good academic ability. You generally don't have 300 points students turning into 550 points students with all the grinds in the world. There is a limit to a student's ability.

Mrsmum

am_zarathustra wrote: »

But by and large a student with a large amount of points, with the caveat i would like, of it being in related subjects will be more lockly to succeed than one who doesn't. It's a numbers game, we play numbers with medication, roads, schools, education, prisons, sentencing, ......laws and regulations are not made for individuals nor can a system designed for college entry be based on exceptions to the rule.

I've also known a lot of parents pay a hell of a lot of money to get their kids 400 points in the best school, with grinds in every subject. A good school and grinds won't always translate to exceptional points, it's just more likely too, just like the kid with excellent grades is more likely to succeed in a college course.

The real issue with the private schools is they make every kid go to college, even those in the lower quartile who are probably not suited. These kids would be served but a different type of focus. But their parents paid me ear bleeding money to keep the kids in HL maths to scrape a pass.

But regardless, the majority of students in Ireland and neither in private schools or DEIS, they are in normal schools where you will need drive and ability to get you to actuary or vetinary

Again I wouldn't disagree with any of that but I do think we are sort of slaves to thinking those who get the highest points are the brightest and so deserve the high class courses when often it's the highly advantaged combined with being reasonably clever that get into the highest courses. I mean of course you must have reasonable intelligence. But even in your average schools, some children, my own included, are sent off to the Gaeltacht every year and they don't even see that as an advantage but it is. It's all adding to those extra points to get into a college course where Irish is neither here nor there but made the difference. That,'s just an example of how I don't think it's straightforward that those with the highest points are necessarily the brightest. And many of them drop out when they meet the truly brilliant and realise they have overreached. Of course people lower down the scale drop out too but they are not the topic of conversation here. Anyway it's not an all or nothing, just another perspective.

rainbowtrout

Mrsmum wrote: »

Again I wouldn't disagree with any of that but I do think we are sort of slaves to thinking those who get the highest points are the brightest and so deserve the high class courses when often it's the advantaged combined with being reasonably clever that get into the highest courses. I mean of course you must have reasonable intelligence. But even in your average schools, some children, my own included, are sent off to the Gaeltacht every year and they don't even see that as an advantage but it is. It's all adding to those extra points to get into a college course where Irish is neither here nor there but made the difference. That,'s just an example of how I don't think it's straightforward that those with the highest points are necessarily the brightest. And many of them drop out when they meet the truly brilliant and realise they have overreached. Of course people lower down the scale drop out too but they are not the topic of conversation here. Anyway it's not an all or nothing, just another perspective.

What is that supposed to even mean???

People don't drop out of college because 'other people are truly brilliant'. They drop out because they don't like the course, are not able for the course, or in some cases have other issues in their personal lives that mean staying on the course is not possible.


There will always be advantage and disadvantage in life. Parents will use the resources available to them to help their children if they can. That will never change. It doesn't mean that those students aren't deserving of a place in college. They still sit the same exams at the end of the day, and are graded anonymously by examiners who don't know them.

Mardy Bum

Mrsmum wrote: »

Again I wouldn't disagree with any of that but I do think we are sort of slaves to thinking those who get the highest points are the brightest and so deserve the high class courses when often it's the highly advantaged combined with being reasonably clever that get into the highest courses. I mean of course you must have reasonable intelligence. But even in your average schools, some children, my own included, are sent off to the Gaeltacht every year and they don't even see that as an advantage but it is. It's all adding to those extra points to get into a college course where Irish is neither here nor there but made the difference. That,'s just an example of how I don't think it's straightforward that those with the highest points are necessarily the brightest. And many of them drop out when they meet the truly brilliant and realise they have overreached. Of course people lower down the scale drop out too but they are not the topic of conversation here. Anyway it's not an all or nothing, just another perspective.

Those with high points are far less likely to drop out when compared with others. Aine Hyland has published on this .

PoolDude

The problem from my perspective is actually when they get to the workforce. I see graduates who got these big points numbers that can regurgitate anything but can’t communicate, aren’t the best team players and have less basic common sense or logic. Not all but some and more importantly demonstrate more privilege and less drive for results.

I work in a major multinational and engage with others in other multinationals to small business to entrepreneurs, across the spectrum. I’d suggest more of the senior execs I meet have come from ‘normal’ schools and worked really hard to get their college place than those that flew through with 600 points regurgitating texts. I think it comes back to the individual and their personal drive than any of those other factors

r93kaey5p2izun

Mrsmum wrote: »

And many of them drop out when they meet the truly brilliant and realise they have overreached. Of course people lower down the scale drop out too but they are not the topic of conversation here. Anyway it's not an all or nothing, just another perspective.

No, the main predictor of third level completion is CAO points. The lowest dropout rates are in the high point courses. There's plenty of research on this. Other factors, such as gender and course content play a role, and performance in Maths and English at LC is particularly important, even in courses with minimal use of these subjects.

Of course, the relative performance of individuals from a very disadvantaged background must be considered in context, and evidence shows disadvantaged students who do access high points courses, even through the likes of HEAR, perform very well. But overall high points strongly predicts success at third level. Students from private schools are also most likely to stay the course. Middle class high points students dropping out because they are have overachieved due to all their advantages, is just not a phenomenon of any note.

Treppen

I think the focus is very much on the linking of subject learning to points to college courses.
But we should also think backwards too.
For secondary teachers as subject proponents there's a body of knowledge that has to be learned and assessed. Changing the system to more continuous assessment, I think we can all agree, will turn it into the JC with CBA's coming out our ears and then open to influence if the dept. wont pay and require teachers to correct. But who knows, maybe it'll settle down after about ten years.

So what else is there, reduce the subject load like the JC, cap it at 5 and take best 6? But then your specialisation would be reduced to 2 subjects assuming Irish English and Maths won't be touched... which they wont.

When people talk about reforming the Leaving Cert they rarely offer a solution that's viable but go on about rote-learning and stress. Is the problem the Leaving Cert or CAO or College. I don't think it's any of them. Nearly any career you want, there are other routes that might take a bit longer to get there. But it seems the Degree is the quickest way.

So really there's no problem with the system. The problem is the humans.

Bobtheman

For an LC exam to go ahead -LC students must be back early March latest. Childcare subsidy must be provided to teachers who need it in some form if primary schools still shut.
The 3 day model might work.
At the moment it does not look like the lockdown will be finished by early March

Bobtheman

As to reforming the LC its relatively simple
A) test half the course at the end of 5th year this reducing the pressure of a final exam
Have a project element in each subject

The rote learning criticism is bull in English. You have to answer the question they give you on the day that's based on subject knowledge. You have to shape your knowledge. Think about the question Somehow the critics think you can think critically about something without studying it thoroughly. Thus the bull**** about skills etc

Smacruairi

The problem with continuous assessment for the leaving cert - my Ted Talk.

Who assesses it?
1. DES does? Will they pay for minimum 2 pieces of work to be corrected and moderated per year? When will those correctors get the time to do it? Will they pay for external moderators? Does everyone do it at the same time? A student does 7 subjects roughly, that's 14days a year (3 whole teaching weeks) devoted to assessments. The pressure of the leaving will still be there, just spread out now over many days.

2. Teachers mark it? How can that be standardised? Fundamentalky changing relationship with student from coach to judge - you're a tutor on Monday, rugby coach on Tuesday, then deciding their future on Wednesday. Parents are already far too pushy, imagine then 2 whole years of canvassing the teacher and looking to account for students performance. Certain schools will just give either the questions out ahead of time, or just give out the answers ahead of time. There would be no legitimacy to the results.

3. Who wants this? Trendy to say wellbeing now, but we have had wellbeing the past 5 years, changed the jc to allow for it, and it's worse!