The way forward for LC2021

Rosita

Random sample wrote: »

In that case their teachers would be working on a voluntary basis... it’s not the same has having paid examining work happening.

But teachers got three extra days at the end of Christmas and would, under my suggestion get an extra week after midterm so it's two extra school days. Hardly a show stopper.

rainbowtrout

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

Perhaps it differs by area. But yes, it's mad that there would be some stuck on a reserve list while shortages are being discussed in the Dail and media. I even have a friend from Dublin who was sent to examine an MFL in Donegal. Here is some examples of media coverage of it in more recent years:


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/shortage-of-examiners-in-lead-up-to-leaving-cert-oral-exams-1.3780787

https://amp.rte.ie/amp/956971/

But it's similar for the written examinations supervision. I've applied many times over 20 years and never got a sniff of it. Always got the 'you've been put on the reserve list'. Maybe 3 years ago was one of the many years I applied, and promptly received a letter back saying I was put on the reserve list and the following day there was another ad out for recruitment for a shortage of examiners. So rather than paying me the mileage to travel to Dublin (that's usually where the shortage is), they would rather be short staffed until the last minute and scrambling for examiners in Dublin.

It's completely within their capabilities to use the new examiners to fill gaps by giving them the short term exam centres and give the established examiners the longer stint, or move some examiners closer to Dublin and free up regional slots.

Granted the exams didn't happen last June, but I did apply, and would have been willing to do it as I'm not high risk and I'm healthy. I still reckon I wouldn't have been offered it, if it saved €50 mileage per day.

r93kaey5p2izun

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But it's similar for the written examinations supervision. I've applied many times over 20 years and never got a sniff of it. Always got the 'you've been put on the reserve list'. Maybe 3 years ago was one of the many years I applied, and promptly received a letter back saying I was put on the reserve list and the following day there was another ad out for recruitment for a shortage of examiners. So rather than paying me the mileage to travel to Dublin (that's usually where the shortage is), they would rather be short staffed until the last minute and scrambling for examiners in Dublin.

It's completely within their capabilities to use the new examiners to fill gaps by giving them the short term exam centres and give the established examiners the longer stint, or move some examiners closer to Dublin and free up regional slots.

Granted the exams didn't happen last June, but I did apply, and would have been willing to do it as I'm not high risk and I'm healthy. I still reckon I wouldn't have been offered it, if it saved €50 mileage per day.

Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if money is at the heart of any issues, rather than real difficulties. Every year that I have done reader in a Dublin school there have been superintendents from the other side of the country drafted in from the reserve list. Often from Kerry, Clare, Limerick and saying they were told at the last minute to come up.

Str8outtaWuhan

Rosita wrote: »

But teachers got three extra days at the end of Christmas and would, under my suggestion get an extra week after midterm so it's two extra school days. Hardly a show stopper.

Those days would have to be agreed a either national or local level. From what little I know the rules governing that allow for the days to be "clawed back " only after all other options ae exhausted e.g. sports days, extracurricular etc.

I have no kids in secondary but I like millions of others have our Easter hols booked off work so we can spend time with our kids who are also meant to be off, pointless having set holidays if they keep changing.

am_zarathustra

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Those days would have to be agreed a either national or local level. From what little I know the rules governing that allow for the days to be "clawed back " only after all other options ae exhausted e.g. sports days, extracurricular etc.

I have no kids in secondary but I like millions of others have our Easter hols booked off work so we can spend time with our kids who are also meant to be off, pointless having set holidays if they keep changing.

Would you object though to a kid going in for half an hour just to do the oral at some point that week? You'd obviously have the time in advance.

I assume we are all just thinking about it too hard and the DES will make a random snap decision based on whatever the media has as flavour of the month anyway but orals could definitely run over easter

Rosita

[QUOTE=Str8outtaWuhan;116188444

I like millions of others have our Easter hols booked off work so we can spend time with our kids who are also meant to be off, pointless having set holidays if they keep changing.[/QUOTE]


I couldn't agree more. But it was others here who challenged the integrity of the Easter holidays by recommending them for part of the state exams. I merely pushed that to its logical conclusion. If you accept Easter holidays are up for grabs as part of the solution then why not maximise the opportunity?

I think it would be a looney precedent to set to accept any erosion of school breaks - people in to clean, supervise, sign documents, office staff, management, etc. to facilitate a government department which could not organise a soirée in a brewery. Students with two languages would get no break either depending on how it fell.

Str8outtaWuhan

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Would you object though to a kid going in for half an hour just to do the oral at some point that week? You'd obviously have the time in advance.

I assume we are all just thinking about it too hard and the DES will make a random snap decision based on whatever the media has as flavour of the month anyway but orals could definitely run over Easter

No, because if you give an inch they take a mile. When it come time for my kids to do their LC i hope to feck its done the 1st 3 weeks of June, no CA bullsh*t, no input from teachers apart from a best of luck message the last day of term. If some of my teachers had a say in my results I shudder to think. And I don't buy all this " they are professionals" crap. I yet to meet a person who doesn't let their personal influence their professional lives. Anonymous and terminal exams.

Apology for rant.

p.s I also had some amazing teachers who would have probably upped my score due to my background.

Mrsmum

Also just thinking would transport to school be an issue for some country children if orals happened over Easter ? You could have a frontline worker parent having to take time off work to get student to school.

shesty

That being said, we have set so many other precedents and eroded so many other parts of our lives at this point that who knows what will happen.
At the rate we are going, I wouldn't see the point of using Easter like that, (even if I agreed with it in the first place, which I don't) but I am beginning to feel they are susceptible to any mad suggestion in Government at the moment, that might make them look good, so who knows.

Rosita

Bobtheman wrote: »

When are we back at school? Is it going to be March??

This was written in the Irish Times by Carl O'Brien on Tuesday, 2nd February. His reports always have the look of rewritten Dept of Ed press releases which is probably because that's what they are. That's bad news in the sense of him as an analytical journalist but it does suggest he nurses his sources in the Dept so what he writes here possibly has some value as a sign of how the Dept is thinking, and/or as a timely Dept leak to test teacher opinion on fora like this.


When will secondary schools reopen?

Government sources and unions are hopeful that secondary schools will reopen on a phased basis in mid to late March.

It is likely exam year groups - such as Leaving Certs - will be prioritised along with students with additional needs, followed by the remainder of secondary students.

However, a full reopening of secondary schools in one go may also be on the cards, if virus transmission rates remain low.

This is due to logistical hurdles facing schools in trying to organise timetables for both in-person and remote teaching.

The aim is to reopen schools to all pupils ahead of the Easter holidays.

Schools are due to close for these holidays from Friday March 26th and reopen on April 12th.

However, some sources say the holiday period could be shortened to facilitate the return to school.

One source said schools, for example, could finish up on March 31st or later under measures in Department of Education circulars which state that holidays can be adjusted in light of “unforeseen circumstances”.

am_zarathustra

Rosita wrote: »

This was written in the Irish Times by Carl O'Brien on Tuesday, 2nd February. His reports always have the look of rewritten Dept of Ed press releases which is probably because that's what they are. That's bad news in the sense of him as an analytical journalist but it does suggest he nurses his sources in the Dept so what he writes here possibly has some value as a sign of how the Dept is thinking, and/or as a timely Dept leak to test teacher opinion on fora like this.


When will secondary schools reopen?

Government sources and unions are hopeful that secondary schools will reopen on a phased basis in mid to late March.

It is likely exam year groups - such as Leaving Certs - will be prioritised along with students with additional needs, followed by the remainder of secondary students.

However, a full reopening of secondary schools in one go may also be on the cards, if virus transmission rates remain low.

This is due to logistical hurdles facing schools in trying to organise timetables for both in-person and remote teaching.

The aim is to reopen schools to all pupils ahead of the Easter holidays.

Schools are due to close for these holidays from Friday March 26th and reopen on April 12th.

However, some sources say the holiday period could be shortened to facilitate the return to school.

One source said schools, for example, could finish up on March 31st or later under measures in Department of Education circulars which state that holidays can be adjusted in light of “unforeseen circumstances”.

It's day for day in the contingency so are we to assume that the 3 days extra of Christmas holidays are being clawed back here?

No particular objection but clarity might be nice. Certainly reads like a fishing expedition!

Rosita

am_zarathustra wrote: »

It's day for day in the contingency so are we to assume that the 3 days extra of Christmas holidays are being clawed back here?
!

If we take the proposal of the 31st at face value the three days are being clawed back, and then some.

Random sample

The first 3 days of the Easter holidays are the only ones set out as contingency days.

Between good Friday and Easter Monday, I don’t see them clawing any more than the 3 days back.

Treppen

I'm here eating my hat as I totally agree with Colm O' Rourke on radio .

Now I know we're in bizarre times.

km79

Treppen wrote: »

I'm here eating my hat as I totally agree with Colm O' Rourke on radio .

Now I know we're in bizarre times.

What did he have to say ?

carr62

Assuming a student doesn't go the route of a written exam, is the general consensus that orals and practicals will, eventually, be happening? Thanks.

rainbowtrout

carr62 wrote: »

Assuming a student doesn't go the route of a written exam, is the general consensus that orals and practicals will, eventually, be happening? Thanks.

There's no general concensus. We don't know. We aren't been told anything extra other than what is in the media.

Any one of us can post here and say the orals and practicals will happen. It doesn't mean they will. We don't get the inside story from the DES. We read about it in the newspapers same as the public.

carr62

Ok rainbowtrout. I thought perhaps the wording in the press release ( which made no sense whatsoever to me!) Might have indicated a leaning one way or another to those who understand her lingo. Guess it's just a waiting game now for everyone.

Str8outtaWuhan

there are at most 68 teaching days before the exams begin, 65 if they don't claw back the 3 days. at most 63 of those days will be in class contact time assuming LC goes back on the 1st March full time!!!

In that time they have to complete all practicals, orals and projects that can't be done at home as well as do mocks (or some sort of formal exam so teachers can access).

Unless teachers are told to forego holidays, its going to be a tall ask for all those things to happen.

Random sample

I don’t get the idea of holding mocks to base predictive grades on. They aren’t mocks if they are used for grades, they are ad hoc leaving certs assessments and would be every bit as stressful as an officially marked exam that is marked to the bell curve.

Str8outtaWuhan

Random sample wrote: »

I don’t get the idea of holding mocks to base predictive grades on. They aren’t mocks if they are used for grades, they are ad hoc leaving certs assessments and would be every bit as stressful as an officially marked exam that is marked to the bell curve.

There seems to be know move on Dept to change the length of exams rather the choice on the paper, so any school not exposing their students to the full rehearsal of a 3 hr exam twice a day for 2 weeks etc is surely doing a disservice?

There was no such thing as mocks in my day and it was quite the shock having an exam that lasted 3 hrs lol

am_zarathustra

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

There seems to be know move on Dept to change the length of exams rather the choice on the paper, so any school not exposing their students to the full rehearsal of a 3 hr exam twice a day for 2 weeks etc is surely doing a disservice?

There was no such thing as mocks in my day and it was quite the shock having an exam that lasted 3 hrs lol

It's would be a serious shock, some didn't even sit Christmas tests coz of covid. My guess is mostly schools don't know what's going to happen and are trying to put semi formal tests in place for students to see how they perform, either in the context of exams or when required to recall a broad curriculum. Some kids do well is discrete tests but don't retain information long term. Christmas tests are also not anywhere near as strictly run, a kids banking of predictive grades could easily cheat. It's another piece of information, I would certainly not be basing a huge amount on it but I would also be setting an exam designed to check for issues I think could be there, or thing so want to confirm are.

Changing the length and giving more choice would certainly help with the LC, I'd love if we got those sooner rather than later for planning. I feel like I've rewritten my scheme 20 times this year

Str8outtaWuhan

am_zarathustra wrote: »

It's would be a serious shock, some didn't even sit Christmas tests coz of covid. My guess is mostly schools don't know what's going to happen and are trying to put semi formal tests in place for students to see how they perform, either in the context of exams or when required to recall a broad curriculum. Some kids do well is discrete tests but don't retain information long term. Christmas tests are also not anywhere near as strictly run, a kids banking of predictive grades could easily cheat. It's another piece of information, I would certainly not be basing a huge amount on it but I would also be setting an exam designed to check for issues I think could be there, or thing so want to confirm are.

Changing the length and giving more choice would certainly help with the LC, I'd love if we got those sooner rather than later for planning. I feel like I've rewritten my scheme 20 times this year

Whats the story in schools at the moment are they allowed sit a 3 hr exam with < 2m SD?

notwhoyouthink

Colm o'Rourke makes perfect sense, and I believe a timely return in late February/Early March coupled with shorter break at Easter will allow the system ti prepare students for LC 2021

This will require more flexibility than in previous years - instead of two papers for some subjects, make it one. And likewise, shorten the elective subjects. Lots of choice should be offered and shorter exam sittings.

May be necessary to hold exams later but entirely possible IMO.

LawBoy2018

notwhoyouthink wrote: »

Colm o'Rourke makes perfect sense, and I believe a timely return in late February/Early March coupled with shorter break at Easter will allow the system ti prepare students for LC 2021

This will require more flexibility than in previous years - instead of two papers for some subjects, make it one. And likewise, shorten the elective subjects. Lots of choice should be offered and shorter exam sittings.

May be necessary to hold exams later but entirely possible IMO.

Only if it means that time lost will be made up in the summer. My sister is in LC and she has 15 classes per week, in comparison to what would normally be much higher.

It's too late to shorten courses, that should have been done last September.

Predicted grades + a choice of traditional LC exams is the only way forward, imo.

Bobtheman

I ask again. When are we back. Will nobody think of the children!!?

Rosita

Random sample wrote: »

I don’t get the idea of holding mocks to base predictive grades on. They aren’t mocks if they are used for grades, they are ad hoc leaving certs assessments and would be every bit as stressful as an officially marked exam that is marked to the bell curve.

But by that logic Fifth Year Christmas exams and even some Junior Cert were elevated to the status of ad hoc Leaving Cert assessments last year. I am mixed on the question of Mocks as so much focus/time would be consumed on preparing for them, and obviously there would be huge differences across the country with regard to some people having significant foreknowledge (either from teacher or other sources) of the content of the paper.

However, if the alternative is no data or much less data from sources not even approaching full-length LC style format surely there is some argument for them. I'm not sure if we should let reduction of stress inform every decision. Anyone who has ever sat an exam has endured a bit of stress.

notwhoyouthink

To be clear, we have to remember that the current cohort of LC students is most adversely affected by the pandemic as they have had to endure two academic years of disruption.

But this also means that predicted grades won't work. That is why I think some form of LC should be conducted. And you know what folks it doesn't have too be closed books. A bit of imagination is needed in addressing this problem.

Random sample

Rosita wrote: »

But by that logic Fifth Year Christmas exams and even some Junior Cert were elevated to the status of ad hoc Leaving Cert assessments last year. I am mixed on the question of Mocks as so much focus/time would be consumed on preparing for them, and obviously there would be huge differences across the country with regard to some people having significant foreknowledge (either from teacher or other sources) of the content of the paper.

However, if the alternative is no data or much less data from sources not even approaching full-length LC style format surely there is some argument for them. I'm not sure if we should let reduction of stress inform every decision. Anyone who has ever sat an exam has endured a bit of stress.

I’m not talking about reducing stress, I mean that giving an exam that will form the basis of their grade is not materially less stressful than giving an exam that is marked consistently and fairly to a bell curve.

By its nature, a mock exam is a practice run. If there isn’t a real exam after the ‘mock’ then it is not a mock exam.

I’m not in favour of predicted grades of any sort, but ones based on an informal terminal exam is just saving the department money on running state exams.

The difference last year was that there were lots of assessments, and the mocks were one of them. None of those exams were taking with the pressure of calculated grades in mind, and we were in crisis mode. One year on, while it is a crisis, it’s not one that has hit recently. Planning and preparation can not be replaced with populist decisions.

am_zarathustra

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Whats the story in schools at the moment are they allowed sit a 3 hr exam with < 2m SD?

Kids would have been in class for two blocks of three hours in our school before Christmas so it should hopefully be ok, if the LC can't be run then really schools can't be back. The LC in my school certainly were very careful, they've been together for 6 years, they know who lives with a granny or who has a sick sister, they have been brilliant in following guidelines.

For our exams we use big rooms like libraries etc too, there actually tends to be a less crowded environments. Given there is 1 year out of 6 in any school could have a max of 4 per room if they wanted.......be expensive but honestly I think teachers would do it. If you cut it to 8 per room that would be doable. Last year was the first year they were going to run a second email in August for anyone sick or bereaved during the exams so that's an option too for the first time.

The exams can run. Say there are 20 discrete sections to a curriculum, ten questions....you need to answer 5....if you've covered half the curriculum you can show your ability. Maths is tricky, section B moreso, they'll need to be strategic and other subjects will need clarity around options will be in place. Music, engineering etc will be tricker as they have large practical components. However, unlike last year the SEC is on board and they have a wealth of people in every subject who understand all the permutations of the exam, let them work it out, I'd have confidence in the people I've corrected under