The way forward for LC2021

carr62

All very confusing. Im the parent of a 6th year who will be keen to take the non exam route as home school has been very difficult due to some family issues. I really don't know what to advise him to concentrate on now though. Apart from homework in all subjects, ( HL except maths) , do I get him to really concentrate on Irish in preparation for orals ( very little of that done in school yet) , or do I get him to begin work on a project that they've only begun talking about in the last few days in class. Seems late for a project, but maybe all Ag. projects are started this late? Perhaps projects and orals won't count this year, or indeed maybe they'll carry more weight than ever for those not choosing the written exam route. Hard to know what to advise, trying my best to keep him focussed.

pandoraj09

I'd say there is no chance Orals will take place this year as they used to. Not a hope. I had heard that Orals during Easter was a possibility but I don't think that's a runner anymore or maybe it is? I'm feeling sorry for my 2 leaving cert languages class. When I say "this will be useful in the Oral" I feel like a fool.

Rosita

pandoraj09 wrote: »

I'd say there is no chance Orals will take place this year as they used to. Not a hope. I had heard that Orals during Easter was a possibility but I don't think that's a runner anymore or maybe it is? I'm feeling sorry for my 2 leaving cert languages class. When I say "this will be useful in the Oral" I feel like a fool.

I've seen the thing about Orals during Easter suggested by people but not sure they've thought that through. In practical terms Orals are not a real encumbrance on a school. Students leave a class for maybe 25 minutes or half an hour and most hardly notice they're happening. Other than schools maybe not having to release a teacher to be an examiner there's no advantage and frankly I'd say that's not a massive advantage. Schools just get on with that anyway. The Orals, as in the actual examination, are not a big drain on school time.

In actual fact, I would imagine, looking at the calendar, that the plan would have been to hold Orals after Easter anyway so holding them during Easter would have been severely disadvantageous to students.

Wombatman

Treppen wrote: »

I'm confused, I thought she was going into talks with stakeholders.

Why is she making pronouncements now.

I think agreement has been reached that a two track approach will be taken. Getting to that point is an achievement in itself, as the mantra a month ago was that the traditional leaving cert was the only game in town.

Talks must now continue to get clarity \ agreement, on what the components of the alternative option will be. Decisions on how the JC will be conducted, the plan for orals and practicals, and other small matters, like encompassing home and self schoolers, still have to be agreed.

pandoraj09

And not forgetting the poor junior certs. Has Norma made any reference to them at all? Half of my 3rd year Irish class has stopped engaging.

Random sample

Rosita wrote: »

I've seen the thing about Orals during Easter suggested by people but not sure they've thought that through. In practical terms Orals are not a real encumbrance on a school. Students leave a class for maybe 25 minutes or half an hour and most hardly notice they're happening. Other than schools maybe not having to release a teacher to be an examiner there's no advantage and frankly I'd say that's not a massive advantage. Schools just get on with that anyway. The Orals, as in the actual examination, are not a big drain on school time.

Some principals don’t allow teachers out for the orals in normal time because they are so much hassle. It is difficult to get a suitable sub, and if you can’t, you have classes who aren’t being taught for a full week.

I think it will be a deterrent for a lot of teachers this year who normally do the orals to think of their classes at school going without instruction for a week.

am_zarathustra

Random sample wrote: »

Some principals don’t allow teachers out for the orals in normal time because they are so much hassle. It is difficult to get a suitable sub, and if you can’t, you have classes who aren’t being taught for a full week.

I think it will be a deterrent for a lot of teachers this year who normally do the orals to think of their classes at school going without instruction for a week.

This is the real issue with orals this year, even a principal who is normally accommodating us unlikely to sacrifice contact time given what's already lost. Teachers themselves are very unlikely to do it too, and then you've way fewer retired teachers. They've struggled the last few years getting enough irish oral examiners before this. Easter would be perfect, easy to open any school for two days, you'd get plenty of volunteers.

The other thing is the quality of work done the few days of orals. Kids are in high doe, they can't concentrate, it would take the pressure off everyone to do it over Easter..,.if they happen......but if they are recorded (like JC system) again it would still be easier to do over Easter.

Rosita

Random sample wrote: »

Some principals don’t allow teachers out for the orals in normal time because they are so much hassle. It is difficult to get a suitable sub, and if you can’t, you have classes who aren’t being taught for a full week.

A teacher can get sick for a week and getting a suitable sub can be tricky too. Such is life. But there is no evidence that there has been any shortage of oral examiners in the past so while obviously you will have Principals who'll take the stance you suggest it's not a problem so far as I know.

Bobtheman

When are we back at school? Is it going to be March??

Rosita

am_zarathustra wrote: »

They've struggled the last few years getting enough irish oral examiners before this.

I can't comment on the specifics of those other than to say that I know people personally who have applied and been put on a reserve list which doesn't suggest a shortage.

Incidentally in a school with over 80 LCs the orals (in Irish) anyway would take five days not two.

Finally, your talk of 'loss of contact time' suggests that Principals are giving zero credit to online classes which is unfortunate.

rainbowtrout

pandoraj09 wrote: »

And not forgetting the poor junior certs. Has Norma made any reference to them at all? Half of my 3rd year Irish class has stopped engaging.

Yes, whatever about LCs - there is acknowledgement that a solution will be provided for LCs, but it's like the JCs don't even exist. Not as high stakes as the LC admittedly, but it's a bit of an insult to ask students to study for an exam for 3 years and then not even acknowledge it in all that's been going on the last 6 months or so, since we went back to school. Given that there will be early school leavers and adults getting back to education in that cohort, it does have a value.

I don't have third years this year, but the DES can't expect that these students will engage indefinitely when they are not being acknowledged.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

I can't comment on the specifics of those other than to say that I know people personally who have applied and been put on a reserve list which doesn't suggest a shortage.

Incidentally in a school with over 80 LCs the orals (in Irish) anyway would take five days not two.

Finally, your talk of 'loss of contact time' suggests that Principals are giving zero credit to online classes which is unfortunate.

Maybe this is what the inspectorate should be put doing. Granted it's not going to provide huge numbers of extra examiners, but if they are the experts let them pick up some of the slack and do the orals/ practicals etc.

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Maybe this is what the inspectorate should be put doing. Granted it's not going to provide huge numbers of extra examiners, but if they are the experts let them pick up some of the slack and do the orals/ practicals etc.

It's certainly hard to imagine they are gainfully employed otherwise anyway.

r93kaey5p2izun

Rosita wrote: »

A teacher can get sick for a week and getting a suitable sub can be tricky too. Such is life. But there is no evidence that there has been any shortage of oral examiners in the past so while obviously you will have Principals who'll take the stance you suggest it's not a problem so far as I know.

It was brought up in the Dail, and there have been many newspaper articles about the shortage. I remember a letter being sent to principals, maybe in 2017 or 2018, pleading with them to release teachers and stating schools who released teachers to examine would be prioritised for oral exam dates.

Rosita

One last thing re. the Orals - I think realistically if they were going to happen they'd have been advertised for recruitment as normal back in November. When even routine things weren't happening back then extraordinary feats or organisation, maybe involving volunteers, are unlikely to happen in the next few weeks.

Rosita

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

It was brought up in the Dail, and there have been many newspaper articles about the shortage. I remember a letter being sent to principals, maybe in 2017 or 2018, pleading with them to release teachers and stating schools who released teachers to examine would be prioritised for oral exam dates.

Sorry, I don't understand the bit about schools being prioritised for oral exam dates.

r93kaey5p2izun

Rosita wrote: »

Sorry, I don't understand the bit about schools being prioritised for oral exam dates.

The letter was from the SEC and my principal at the time stuck it on the staff notice board, asking if anyone who didn't usually apply would consider doing the oral exams. The letter stated that due to the shortage, that schools who released teachers to examine would in turn be prioritised for being given dates for the oral exams in their school. I see reference to a similar statement from the SEC from 2009 here, but it was more recently that I saw such a letter, and a colleague did apply to do the Irish orals on that basis.

http://www.ippn.ie/index.php/99-news-and-views/education-news?start=4180

deiseindublin

There was a few years when the span of weeks for orals was broader because they couldn't get examiners, so I presume retired teachers did extra weeks on either side of the official dates.

Lots of schools will only let one person apply.

am_zarathustra

Rosita wrote: »

I can't comment on the specifics of those other than to say that I know people personally who have applied and been put on a reserve list which doesn't suggest a shortage.

Incidentally in a school with over 80 LCs the orals (in Irish) anyway would take five days not two.

Finally, your talk of 'loss of contact time' suggests that Principals are giving zero credit to online classes which is unfortunate.

Not all student engage online, this is a fact. I teach in an inner city DEIS school, the home environment, and I use the word lightly, that these kids come from is not always conducive to education. Anyone claiming online teaching is 100% as effective as in person is devaluing our profession. Yes you can do good work online, but teachers will also have moved topic around to teach things that are easier to do online. These topics still need to be done. I think any principal who thinks it's a good idea to leave a disrupted LC class without a teacher for 2 weeks might need to reconsider what their priorities are.


As stated by a number of posters the SEC have had to send letters to schools begging for oral examiners, in Dublin and the last few years our examiners have come from as far away as Carlow due to shortages. Antoine teaching in the greater dublin area will tell you Irish teachers and now MFL teachers are every thin on the ground

pandoraj09

Unless the orals are going to take place during the Easter holidays I really can't see them happening. I've been allowed out to do them some years, more recently I've been told no. Each year the SEC rings me asking me can I do them and I suggest they talk to my Principal but they won't go that far. Teachers who have been retired for a good few years are often not appointed for the Orals. I know of a few. One of them has actually subbed for me a few times so I could go out. I'm still thinking that maybe we'll be expected to submit a predictive mark for the oral element. Hopefully I'm wrong. Having to predict grades wouldn't sit well with me at all this year. I'm 6th year year head and I teach them 2 languages. I've been a mammy, granny, counsellor, sounding board etc etc etc for this group for 2 years.
I'd hate to have to list them in what I perceived was their ability level.

Rosita

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Anyone claiming online teaching is 100% as effective as in person is devaluing our profession. QUOTE]

Who claimed that?

Rosita

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

The letter was from the SEC and my principal at the time stuck it on the staff notice board, asking if anyone who didn't usually apply would consider doing the oral exams. The letter stated that due to the shortage, that schools who released teachers to examine would in turn be prioritised for being given dates for the oral exams in their school. I see reference to a similar statement from the SEC from 2009 here, but it was more recently that I saw such a letter, and a colleague did apply to do the Irish orals on that basis.

http://www.ippn.ie/index.php/99-news-and-views/education-news?start=4180

I've been doing them for over a decade and was blissfully unaware of this. How inadequate must those on the reserve list feel?

Rosita

am_zarathustra wrote: »

N

in Dublin and the last few years our examiners have come from as far away as Carlow due to shortages. Antoine teaching in the greater dublin area will tell you Irish teachers and now MFL teachers are every thin on the ground

Shortage of teachers generally is a separate issue. But I was at an oral Irish conference a few years ago and while I was examining in a school down the road another teacher based in Dublin was going to Killarney. I know another examiner who had been dotted around a series of local schools and complained as she knew some students. Then she was sent to Portlaoise (teaches in Dublin). I'm sure if a connection between location of examiners and shortages. But I'm probably wrong on that.

r93kaey5p2izun

Rosita wrote: »

I've been doing them for over a decade and was blissfully unaware of this. How inadequate must those on the reserve list feel?

Perhaps it differs by area. But yes, it's mad that there would be some stuck on a reserve list while shortages are being discussed in the Dail and media. I even have a friend from Dublin who was sent to examine an MFL in Donegal. Here is some examples of media coverage of it in more recent years:


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/shortage-of-examiners-in-lead-up-to-leaving-cert-oral-exams-1.3780787

https://amp.rte.ie/amp/956971/

Rosita

pandoraj09 wrote: »

Unless the orals are going to take place during the Easter holidays I really can't see them happening. .

Can't see them happening during Easter holidays anyway. Easter holidays begin on on 28th March. Schools might be back only three weeks at the most. Might not be back at all by then. So it really doesn't arise.

Like I said earlier if Orals were going to happen they'd gave recruited as normal. You might never see Oral exams again as we knew them. Great cost-saving opportunity there for the government.

Random sample

There have been shortages of examiners lots of years, I’ve often been rang and asked if I’d do it when I haven’t applied, and so have my colleagues.

I remember that letter threatening not to have examiners available to schools who had not provided an examiner in the advertised weeks of the orals, and reminding principals of the distress it would cause to students to have the exam on a week other than the advertised week.

The missing time this year isn’t just from online teaching, many students have missed weeks when they have been close contacts or had family members test positive too.

I think Easter is the obvious solution.

Rosita

Random sample wrote: »

I think Easter is the obvious solution.

If Easter is up for grabs would it not make more sense to bring the LCs into school during those two weeks instead?

Maybe hold the Orals in June/July after the main LC which would allow time to recruit people and schools would not be required to free people up?

Easter holidays are just five school weeks away with no time line for return yet. Would it be fair to ask students to go straight into Orals after just a week or two back, or maybe not being back at all?

History Queen

Just thinking aloud here...could the alternative plan be to allow predicted components such as orals projects and practicals? This would increase contact time for students to concentrate on the written exam and would allow schools or students or classes who were additionally disadvantaged to make up ground... say where broadband had been a particular issue? But where the students wished, they could opt to do the oral/practical/project.

Rosita

History Queen wrote: »

Just thinking aloud here...could the alternative plan be to allow predicted components such as orals projects and practicals? This would increasecontact time for students to concentrate on yhe written examand would allow schools or students or classes who were additionally disadvantaged to make up ground... say where broadband had been a particular issue? But where the students wished, they could opt to do the oral/practical/project.

In the case of Orals, schools don't even need 'predicted' grades. There are Mock Orals held in my school and presumably in loads of schools. These could be the basis for calculated grades actually based on reality. Just takes 15 minutes or so to acquire actual real data on the student rather than a guess.

This could be done in June after the LC to free up preparation time for written exams too. And no recruitment process necessary as it's an in-school activity. Certainly has much to recommend it. Hard to imagine predicted grades for Orals at least is not in their mind since they've no examiners organised by now.

Random sample

Rosita wrote: »

If Easter is up for grabs would it not make more sense to bring the LCs into school during those two weeks instead?

Maybe hold the Orals in June/July after the main LC which would allow time to recruit people and schools would not be required to free people up?

Easter holidays are just five school weeks away with no time line for return yet. Would it be fair to ask students to go straight into Orals after just a week or two back, or maybe not being back at all?

In that case their teachers would be working on a voluntary basis... it’s not the same has having paid examining work happening.

I think it all depends on when we get back at this stage. The orals are normally moderated during the summer, I think it would slow down the process for the sec if they don’t have them available to them before the written exams.