The way forward for LC2021

Treppen · 13-02-2021 04:30PM

Wombatman wrote: »

ASTI and TUI representatives were interviewed on Katie Hannon just after 1pm on Radio 1. Well worth a listen back.

TUI saying nothing changed yesterday, from what was already agreed, so why are ASTI returning.

Clearly everybody was trying to avoid using descriptors like 'calculated grades', 'calculated grades', or 'estimated grades' but nobody could. Something very close to last years PGs is without doubt the second option.

ASTI believe they have secured a firm commitment from the minister that the exams will go ahead in June and that all additional components of assessments, orals, practicals and the like, will also be completed.

ASTI making it clear, that while they are open to creative suggestions on the second strand (PG \ CG), their members will not engage in student ranking like they did last year.

Now the ASTI have ensured that:
1. ranking will not happen.
2. And the government have to discuss exams being used.
3. Practicals and orals and coursework already completed will count and is being considered. This is especially pertinent for any music students.

According to the ASTI the Department would not countenance any of the above and were pushing CG only.

TUI.... as always following on the coat-tails, came out and said 'ya we were for that anyway as well'.

Interesting the Department claimed earlier last night that they were going ahead without ASTI anyway, (trying to split TUI and ASTI schools) but then the ASTI claimed that the minister has given assurances and they were returning to talks, it put a stop to the Department railroading.

Treppen · 13-02-2021 04:33PM

PoolDude wrote: »

Interesting that Christie was gone off the line when asked to respond to what MG said. As someone not familiar with these players it certainly does not reflect well on this guy, Christie or ASTI; didn't like the question on Six One and said couldn't hear and then answered something different, didn't like what was happening in the talks and walked away, didn't like what MG said on the call and dropped off or just didn't respond.

Maybe I'm reading this the wrong way because as I said I don't know these folks or the politics of it - I'm just interested in understanding the solution and seeing something that's balanced for students and fair for teachers and gives them whatever protections needed to enable use their professional judgement if PG's are used.

I do think as I've said before, this needs to be a parallel process as originally described and they have to be figuring out the structure of the written exams and how orals/practical's feed into that.

Agreed. Get the talks to talk about preparing for real exams in some part.

Wombatman · 13-02-2021 04:38PM

The interesting this about the agreement that ranking will not happen, is it implies teacher lead grading is going to happen.

joebloggs32 · 13-02-2021 06:26PM

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Jesus, the TUI are useless, I'd much prefer the option to be open as to what union your in, we are a TUI school but a lot would jumping they could I think. They have been very weak willed in the last few years and left alone, I doubt we'd have had the small improvements in pay we've seen

You are more than entitled to join either union. Nothing can stop you.
Im in the TUI and about 15% of the members in my branch are from voluntary secondary schools. Even in the last week we got an application in from someone in a voluntary secondary school.

deiseindublin · 13-02-2021 06:35PM

Disgraceful the way the TUI accepted ASTI members in the middle of a dispute. They have no sense of union solidarity at all. Honestly, Larkin would turn in his grave if he witnessed their carry on.

joebloggs32 · 13-02-2021 06:35PM

Treppen wrote: »

Now the ASTI have ensured that:
1. ranking will not happen.
2. And the government have to discuss exams being used.
3. Practicals and orals and coursework already completed will count and is being considered. This is especially pertinent for any music students.

According to the ASTI the Department would not countenance any of the above and were pushing CG only.

TUI.... as always following on the coat-tails, came out and said 'ya we were for that anyway as well'.

Interesting the Department claimed earlier last night that they were going ahead without ASTI anyway, (trying to split TUI and ASTI schools) but then the ASTI claimed that the minister has given assurances and they were returning to talks, it put a stop to the Department railroading.

The TUI priorities were outlined at their second level advisory committee last week.

The leaving cert written exam to proceed and the second component of assessment must be included. The written exams to have as much choice as possible to take account of the current circumstances.
They like the Asti also outlined their opposition to having PG or a hybrid of sorts with students being able to pick and choose between the two.
The TUI congress has passed a motion not to cooperate with the PG model.

To say the TUI are jumping on the coat-tails of the Asti on the issue of the leaving is well wide of the.mark.

joebloggs32 · 13-02-2021 06:47PM

deiseindublin wrote: »

Disgraceful the way the TUI accepted ASTI members in the middle of a dispute. They have no sense of union solidarity at all. Honestly, Larkin would turn in his grave if he witnessed their carry on.

My branch refused people at the time who tried to move in the dispute.
I had people in my own school looking to swap but we refused them.
There were some applications coming in with people blatantly telling lies about past membership once word got out we were not accepting Asti members at that time. I remember a conversation with one teacher who got angry with me for blocking their application as her boyfriend had managed to change unions in another part of the country. I told her i was just applying the rules.

However, my point was as there is no dispute now, people can choose to join either union.

Hopontop · 13-02-2021 06:50PM

deiseindublin wrote: »

Disgraceful the way the TUI accepted ASTI members in the middle of a dispute. They have no sense of union solidarity at all. Honestly, Larkin would turn in his grave if he witnessed their carry on.

Did anything ever come of that? Didn’t ASTI complain to ICTU?

Rosita · 13-02-2021 06:50PM

Probably very non-pc thing to be saying but the role of Second Level students in this needs to be more appropriate. There is no other examination process from the Driver Theory Test to University exams where those undertaking the exams get to dictate that they can choose between doing the exam or not and take a chance on a predicted outcome.

By all means be cognisant of lost time and make exams more approachable and tolerable but the idea that someone can mention the words 'stress' and 'mental health' and an examination system that has by and large served well is under existential threat is not on.

I sincerely hope too that the Dept of Ed is an honest broker in this situation and is not just going through the process to keep students "working" until the bells tolls in June.

Looking around and seeing things like the GAA inter-county games exemption at level 5 not being renewed, and level 5 generally inevitably being continued, the comments on foreign travel before Christmas even, plus the lack of even basic planning for Orals/Practicals sometimes makes me wonder about whether this is all a smoke and mirrors job and will we be back in school at all this year? Is fear of variant strains now calling the tune? But that's just thinking (hopefully mad thoughts) aloud.

deiseindublin · 13-02-2021 06:53PM

It's just a pity other branches weren't so honest! There's a septic atmosphere between them now and all teachers are the losers as the government continually divide and conquer.

Hasn't the new pay deal a facet where each union has to negotiate to get a bigger slice of the cake than other unions? The whole thing is divisive enough already, without needing MG (who I usually find great) pouring fuel onto the fire.

All he had to do was sidestep the question, would have been so easy.

Random sample · 13-02-2021 06:56PM

Rosita wrote: »

Probably very non-pc thing to be saying but the role of Second Level students in this needs to be more appropriate. There is no other examination process from the Driver Theory Test to University exams where those undertaking the exams get to dictate that they can choose between doing the exam or not and take a chance on a predicted outcome.

By all means be cognisant of lost time and make exams more approachable and tolerable but the idea that someone can mention the words 'stress' and 'mental health' and an examination system that has by and large served well is under existential threat is not on.

I sincerely hope too that the Dept of Ed is an honest broker in this situation and is not just going through the process to keep students "working" until the bells tolls in June.

Looking around and seeing things like the GAA games exemption at level 5 not being renewed, and level 5 generally inevitably being continued, the comments on foreign travel before Christmas even, plus the lack of even basic planning for Orals/Practicals sometimes makes me wonder about where this is all a smoke and mirrors job and will we be back in school at all this year. Is fear of variant strains now calling the tune. But that's just thinking (hopefully mad thoughts) aloud.

Fair point.

Driver tests are going ahead. Even though it may cause a huge amount of stress to the people being tested.

What about having to submit a piece of work, like an essay, a poetry question, an exam question etc, before the exam, like how the continuous assessment components in history/geography and having it worth a certain amount of marks? It would be as good as a predicted grade from the teacher in determining a grade.

joebloggs32 · 13-02-2021 06:57PM

Hopontop wrote: »

Did anything ever come of that? Didn’t ASTI complain to ICTU?

I think there was a finding against the TUI and a fine was to be imposed

Random sample · 13-02-2021 07:02PM

In my school people left the asti in May and joined the tui in September to get around the issue of jumping ship. I don’t blame them, it got them a cid.

joebloggs32 · 13-02-2021 07:07PM

deiseindublin wrote: »

It's just a pity other branches weren't so honest! There's a septic atmosphere between them now and all teachers are the losers as the government continually divide and conquer.

Hasn't the new pay deal a facet where each union has to negotiate to get a bigger slice of the cake than other unions? The whole thing is divisive enough already, without needing MG (who I usually find great) pouring fuel onto the fire.

All he had to do was sidestep the question, would have been so easy.

I know in the case of the girl i refused it was a nod and wink job in a different branch as her boyfriend was friendly with a branch officer and as they were applying for a mortgage they let him in.
I had no knowledge of her private life, or her boyfriend until she started crying to me and giving out that i was being unfair. I simply told her i couldn't accept her application due to her membership of the Asti. I asked her what branch her boyfriend joined but she wouldn't tell me

Anyway, back on topic, the point about the students having too much of an influence on this process is on the money.
Of course they want to avoid the exams, but the PC brigade want to be down with the kids on this issue.
I heard one radio contributor today on Brendan O'Carroll refute the idea the the whole LC thing us being over hyped and blown out of proportion!

History Queen · 13-02-2021 09:13PM

deiseindublin wrote: »

It's just a pity other branches weren't so honest! There's a septic atmosphere between them now and all teachers are the losers as the government continually divide and conquer.

Hasn't the new pay deal a facet where each union has to negotiate to get a bigger slice of the cake than other unions? The whole thing is divisive enough already, without needing MG (who I usually find great) pouring fuel onto the fire.

All he had to do was sidestep the question, would have been so easy.

I agree with everything you posted here. Our branch was the same as joebloggs says above and our area rep got hell from our branch about it at the time, ( our branch secretary got wind of what was happening in other branches). There is no defence for it. It was disgraceful carry on

History Queen · 13-02-2021 09:15PM

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I think there was a finding against the TUI and a fine was to be imposed

A fine the TUI have yet to pay I think.

noplacehere · 13-02-2021 09:59PM

I can’t link yet I don’t think Edit: oh I can!

https://twitter.com/aoibhinn_ni_s/status/1360625810709839873?s=20

But Aoibhinn Ní shuileabhain tweeting earlier that the Children’s ombudsman met with the minister months ago requesting plans be put in place.

I cannot understand the media sometimes. This is absolute incompetency but somehow we are back discussing the TUI versus ASTI and the unions. And not the utter farce it is that talks are even needed by now

Treppen · 14-02-2021 01:21AM

joebloggs32 wrote: »

You are more than entitled to join either union. Nothing can stop you.
Im in the TUI and about 15% of the members in my branch are from voluntary secondary schools. Even in the last week we got an application in from someone in a voluntary secondary school.

Ya that's all fine and dandy. But if you are sole tui in an asti school then you're out on your own if you run into difficulties in a school. A few times we've had our union area rep in. Many times we've had non union members coming looking for free advice from school reps also moaning about why the unions don't do anything.... we respectfully hand them the application forms.
Has to be strength in numbers. If there comes a tipping point in schools with more non-Union than Union, then it's open season on terms and conditions. Look around in New schools, it's all young teachers, and plenty of them revolving in and out..

I moan about other unions. But if I changed schools I'd go with the majority Union in a heartbeat.

am_zarathustra · 14-02-2021 01:56AM

I'm in an etb school too, Head office wouldn't even talk to ASTI. The strength in numbers argument is solid too, I'd be wary of being alone, the logic of the union of numbers unfortunately outweighs my own personal feelings about the leadership.

I've been in a new school, your 100% right about them, your rights are dictated by the principal, it's completely random. Good principal, not a bother, bad principal.... unchecked power. I'd love to go back now with my experience!

r93kaey5p2izun · 14-02-2021 02:01AM

The fact TUI doesn't only represent second level is seen as a problem by many, and I understand and share that concern in many ways. However, it is reality that within the ETB there are many dual provision post primary and FE centres, so the teachers in these centres need representation for both sectors. The ASTI does not provide this - a strength in the main that they are focused on one sector - but no use to the many teachers working across sectors, even if they are teaching predominantly post primary. The ASTI would not accept members from my school because of this, despite the school being officially considered dual union by the department when the split occurred over one of the agreements.

Personally I see the ASTI as the better union, but I also find the constant snide comments towards TUI members a little hard to take, when ASTI are not willing to represent all teachers either. Teachers are advised by both unions to join the majority union where one dominates, and in many cases they still have no option re union, except none. I think that should be borne in mind when making sweeping vitriolic statements about the other union, it really serves nobody but DES to foster the division they crave.

Beaulieu · 14-02-2021 02:27AM

History Queen wrote: »

A fine the TUI have yet to pay I think.

I understand a settlement was paid over to the ASTI. Amazed it didnt make the news but I think it happened just before the pandemic started.

History Queen · 14-02-2021 08:22AM

Beaulieu wrote: »

I understand a settlement was paid over to the ASTI. Amazed it didnt make the news but I think it happened just before the pandemic started.

Oh my apologies if I'm wrong on this. I could've sworn I heard something lately about it not being paid yet.

Wombatman · 14-02-2021 09:21AM

Leaving Cert students to start a phased return to mainstream classes during the week of February 22nd.

https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/leaving-cert-will-go-ahead-and-schools-set-to-reopen-40088920.html

noplacehere · 14-02-2021 09:24AM

Wombatman wrote: »

Leaving Cert students to start a phased return to mainstream classes during the week of February 22nd.

https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/leaving-cert-will-go-ahead-and-schools-set-to-reopen-40088920.html

I am so sick of reading crucial parts of our job in the bloody papers before we are told. And then there is absolutely no idea how this is meant to work. The supposedly confidential talks were leaking all over the place too

History Queen · 14-02-2021 09:25AM

I can't access the article as it is behind a paywall but the first paragraph raises a lot of questions about how the system will work.

"Leaving Certificate students are to be offered the choice of calculated grades, a written examination, or both, after talks about holding State exams gathered pace this weekend. The Cabinet is expected to sign off on the dual approach at a meeting on Tuesday."

I wonder how they are making it fair? And how the choice will work.

annamarie2013 · 14-02-2021 09:53AM

Could it have something to do with estimating grades on the oral and practical components? No mention of the Junior Cert.

Rosita · 14-02-2021 10:49AM

noplacehere wrote: »

I am so sick of reading crucial parts of our job in the bloody papers before we are told. And then there is absolutely no idea how this is meant to work. The supposedly confidential talks were leaking all over the place too

Yeah, I hear you. Mind you I do remember a front page story in the Sunday Times last April saying LCs were back in school in May and it didn't happen. Could be in the paper and still complete fabrication.

Just put and about now and had a look at the front page of the Indo. Written as if the thing about the ASTI never happened and all will be signed off on Tuesday offering students a choice between predicted grades and a written exam and possibly a third option of a mix. There was a loose comment the other day from a "government source" that nothing had ben promised but nothing was made of it in the media.

I am dubious about plans to open schools when I hear government trying to avoid written exams. If they really thought schools would open shortly why not promote the traditional exam? Still plenty of time with necessary adjustments.

Bobtheman · 14-02-2021 10:54AM

More stuff in the indo today.
Push for hybrid over the exams.
Push for return week of Feb 22nd for LC.
Subject to health advice.
Given flip flops etc let's just wait and see.
I'm curious about Nphet. I presume advice is leaning towards an opening.

km79 · 14-02-2021 11:04AM

Bobtheman wrote: »

More stuff in the indo today.
Push for hybrid over the exams.
Push for return week of Feb 22nd for LC.
Subject to health advice.
Given flip flops etc let's just wait and see.
I'm curious about Nphet. I presume advice is leaning towards an opening.

It’s almost certain now Leaving Certs will return to classrooms mid week of the week of Feb 22nd or on Monday March 1st.
With public health advice it should be March 1st at the very earliest.
So I’ll go for Weds Feb 22nd and the minister gets her magical 3 day week after all

Rosita · 14-02-2021 11:09AM

km79 wrote: »

It’s almost certain now Leaving Certs will return to classrooms mid week of the week of Feb 22nd or on Monday March 1st.

Sorry, have you a source for this other than the Independent story?

The way forward for LC2021

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