Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

Bishop of hope · 25-01-2021 4:12pm

Get rid of the monarchy is the easy answer to all the problems.
This belief that people are bound to a Queen or King in this day and age in a western democratic country or union is ridiculous no matter how you put it.
An unelected figurehead, laughable.
Devolve each country to their own governance in a commonwealth is a sensible solution to the whole thing.
An independent Northern Ireland first, and then through time if the majority wants it, they can apply to become joined in union with the Republic.
Each independent nation could after their own independence decide to stick with the commonwealth or join the EU perhaps too.

Wilhelm III · 25-01-2021 4:14pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Don't be a dreamer Francie. You know fine well it will kick off at the very smell of a referendum.

You are the dreamer Sir - and your dreams of a partitioned, segregated island - held back from real prosperity, and peaceful, mutually beneficial respect and co-operation for the betterment of all citizens - are only that, dreams. I don't believe your username for one second - you are no moron, come on - get on board, dream big - stop thinking small, let's go - united Ireland!!

FrancieBrady · 25-01-2021 4:14pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Don't be a dreamer Francie. You know fine well it will kick off at the very smell of a referendum.

Anyhow it is the prerogative of the British prime minister as per the GFA? Any PM who announces one will be basically instigating a riot, they know that.

Be prepared for the Border Poll to be kicked down the street for another generation at least. I mean you would need to see a new liberal progressive unionist party being formed for starters? They just are not there yet.

It's the SoS who will call it.

Point is, there has been threats of violence before, most recently over the Irish Sea border and it didn't deter that happening.
Don't be surpised, right back at you.

UDAWINNER · 25-01-2021 4:16pm

Amazes me that people will say kick the border poll down the road because of potential trouble with unionists. If a majority supports a border poll and if gets passed by 50+1%, that is it and that is democracy. Or are we gainst democracy when it does not suit. If they cause trouble, then use the police to batter them and some of them have the option to fcuk across the water if they don't want to live in a United Ireland and let them find out what the rest of the UK really thinks of them:)

FrancieBrady · 25-01-2021 4:17pm

Bishop of hope wrote: »

Get rid of the monarchy is the easy answer to all the problems.
This belief that people are bound to a Queen or King in this day and age in a western democratic country or union is ridiculous no matter how you put it.
An unelected figurehead, laughable.
Devolve each country to their own governance in a commonwealth is a sensible solution to the whole thing.
An independent Northern Ireland first, and then through time if the majority wants it, they can apply to become joined in union with the Republic.
Each independent nation could after their own independence decide to stick with the commonwealth or join the EU perhaps too.

If they vote for a UI then there will be a 'majority' for that. Nobody, of any political weight, is proposing an independent NI, because it is pie in the sky, it cannot govern itself, it requires an international agreement between two sovereign countries to ust about function.

IAMAMORON · 25-01-2021 4:29pm

Wilhelm III wrote: »

You are the dreamer Sir - and your dreams of a partitioned, segregated island - held back from real prosperity, and peaceful, mutually beneficial respect and co-operation for the betterment of all citizens - are only that, dreams. I don't believe your username for one second - you are no moron, come on - get on board, dream big - stop thinking small, let's go - united Ireland!!

Wilhem I am a very progressive republican. I would love to see a United Ireland.

But I do believe that the current strategy is going to lead to problems. The GFA is a great document, but it is now 24 years old and definitely needs some revision. It was an agreement to end a war, it should not be used to start anther one.

At the time nationalists were appeased by the promise of a border poll. The loyalists were appeased by being given disarmament and disbanding of the Provisional council. Both those appeasements were agreed and signed - albeit many Unionists - and Nationalists - opposed the agreement.

I just think that the provisions of the GFA need another summit another gathering another meeting. To iron out what unionist fears are prior to any poll being introduced. It is the unionist politicians who will have to sell the concept to unionists.

This blind politics that Sinn Féin are currently adopting is just leading the North back into more hassle. Do they want that really? This concept that half the north is going to wake up one morning and elect themselves into a republic is wishy washy and highly unrealistic. They might find the votes, but at what expense?

I don't even see enough progressive unionists at ground level to even give any hope of there being a movement towards any sort of concessionary politics around the issue. Until we start to see anything along those lines there should simply not be a poll. There will be eruptions and everyone knows it.

Wilhelm III · 25-01-2021 4:33pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Wilhem I am a very progressive republican. I would love to see a United Ireland.

But I do believe that the current strategy is going to lead to problems. The GFA is a great document, but it is now 24 years old and definitely needs some revision. It was an agreement to end a war, it should not be used to start anther one.

At the time nationalists were appeased by the promise of a border poll. The loyalists were appeased by being given disarmament and disbanding of the Provisional council. Both those appeasements were agreed and signed - albeit many Unionists - and Nationalists - opposed the agreement.

I just think that the provisions of the GFA need another summit another gathering another meeting. To iron out what unionist fears are prior to any poll being introduced. It is the unionist politicians who will have to sell the concept to unionists.

This blind politics that Sinn Féin are currently adopting is just leading the North back into more hassle. Do they want that really? This concept that half the north is going to wake up one morning and elect themselves into a republic is wishy washy and highly unrealistic. They might find the votes, but at what expense?

I don't even see enough progressive unionists at ground level to even give any hope of there being a movement towards any sort of concessionary politics around the issue. Until we start to see anything along those lines there should simply not be a poll. There will be eruptions and everyone knows it.

OK - my bad Sir, my unfair accusation of your being a dreamer is withdrawn

!

EDIT: I thought you were one of these 'I don't want that lot down here' types, my bad.

breezy1985 · 25-01-2021 4:33pm

UDAWINNER wrote: »

Amazes me that people will say kick the border poll down the road because of potential trouble with unionists. If a majority supports a border poll and if gets passed by 50+1%, that is it and that is democracy. Or are we gainst democracy when it does not suit. If they cause trouble, then use the police to batter them and some of them have the option to fcuk across the water if they don't want to live in a United Ireland and let them find out what the rest of the UK really thinks of them:)

My reason for kicking it down the road has nothing to do with trouble. I just think the 51% yes could easily swing the wrong way when unionists put things like €50 for a GP visit on the side of a bus.
Indieref and Brexit swung on a few very marketable issues like that.

Wait till the numbers look a bit safer rather than the streets

FrancieBrady · 25-01-2021 4:35pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Wilhem I am a very progressive republican. I would love to see a United Ireland.

But I do believe that the current strategy is going to lead to problems. The GFA is a great document, but it is now 24 years old and definitely needs some revision. It was an agreement to end a war, it should not be used to start anther one.

At the time nationalists were appeased by the promise of a border poll. The loyalists were appeased by being given disarmament and disbanding of the Provisional council. Both those appeasements were agreed and signed - albeit many Unionists - and Nationalists - opposed the agreement.

I just think that the provisions of the GFA need another summit another gathering another meeting. To iron out what unionist fears are prior to any poll being introduced. It is the unionist politicians who will have to sell the concept to unionists.

This blind politics that Sinn Féin are currently adopting is just leading the North back into more hassle. Do they want that really? This concept that half the north is going to wake up one morning and elect themselves into a republic is wishy washy and highly unrealistic. They might find the votes, but at what expense?

I don't even see enough progressive unionists at ground level to even give any hope of there being a movement towards any sort of concessionary politics around the issue. Until we start to see anything along those lines there should simply not be a poll. There will be eruptions and everyone knows it.

The distinct possibility of a UI was built into the GFA. Unionism knew this, that is wny the belligerents didn't sign up to it.

If a major violent campaign capable of disrupting any agreed UI was going to happen then was the time. Paisley et ál tried to muster a sustained militant campaign against it but failed.

blanch152 · 25-01-2021 5:12pm

UDAWINNER wrote: »

Then the PSNI could do their job and batter them, as they did for decades if they were nationalists

It isn't the job of any police force to batter protestors.

blanch152 · 25-01-2021 5:17pm

UDAWINNER wrote: »

Amazes me that people will say kick the border poll down the road because of potential trouble with unionists. If a majority supports a border poll and if gets passed by 50+1%, that is it and that is democracy. Or are we gainst democracy when it does not suit. If they cause trouble, then use the police to batter them and some of them have the option to fcuk across the water if they don't want to live in a United Ireland and let them find out what the rest of the UK really thinks of them:)

The end result could well be 50%+1 vote, that would be enough to pass it.

However, the SoS will only hold a poll when it is likely to be passed. That would imply indicators well beyond 50%+1 vote. At the moment, the most recent opinion poll has shown that support for a united Ireland has dropped by more than 3% in the last year since a similar poll carried out by the same company.

Until that opinion poll is showing more than 50% and rising, the conversation won't begin. It would also have to be accompanied by a Nationalist majority in Stormont. What would be useful if politicians (and posters on anonymous internet sites) at least started discussion the conditions they believe necessary for a poll likely to pass.

FrancieBrady · 25-01-2021 5:55pm

blanch152 wrote: »

The end result could well be 50%+1 vote, that would be enough to pass it.

However, the SoS will only hold a poll when it is likely to be passed.

That is factually wrong. The SoS can call a poll at any time.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2021/01/24/a-border-poll-can-be-held-at-any-time-redux/

blanch152 · 25-01-2021 6:10pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is factually wrong. The SoS can call a poll at any time.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2021/01/24/a-border-poll-can-be-held-at-any-time-redux/

blanch152 wrote: »

However, the SoS will only hold a poll when it is likely to be passed. .

Technically, you are correct, that the SOS can call a poll at any time. However, I expressed an opinion that he will only hold a poll when it is likely to be passed. Anything else would be a breach of the GFA, be acting in bad faith, and would be divisive. That is not the way to run anywhere.

FrancieBrady · 25-01-2021 6:15pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Technically, you are correct, that the SOS can call a poll at any time. However, I expressed an opinion that he will only hold a poll when it is likely to be passed. Anything else would be a breach of the GFA, be acting in bad faith, and would be divisive. That is not the way to run anywhere.

A border poll by it's nature will be divisive just as not having one will be divisive if the support is there. There can be no breach of the GFA as the McCord case showed. The SoS does not have to justify why he/she decides nor set critieria - something the present incumbent has just reiterated.
So he/she could call one when it is politically expedient for the Tories or Lab or as a response to a request from Dublin etc. We know how the Tories run things after all.

20silkcut · 25-01-2021 7:05pm

UDAWINNER wrote: »

Amazes me that people will say kick the border poll down the road because of potential trouble with unionists. If a majority supports a border poll and if gets passed by 50+1%, that is it and that is democracy. Or are we gainst democracy when it does not suit. If they cause trouble, then use the police to batter them and some of them have the option to fcuk across the water if they don't want to live in a United Ireland and let them find out what the rest of the UK really thinks of them:)

Batter 850,000 of them? That’s basically a civil war 2.0

FrancieBrady · 25-01-2021 7:13pm

20silkcut wrote: »

Batter 850,000 of them? That’s basically a civil war 2.0

A tiny fraction of that number will try to cause trouble against extreme odds. A British government intent on making a UI work and an Irish government the same. The whole rest of the EU and the Americans also.

If they were to mount a campaign capable of destabilising any constitutuional change they would first have to arm and equip themselves to do that. And to achieve what?

You'll get 100,000 marching in protest and then they will go home and do, what the evidence since the Anglo Irish Agreement suggests...get on with it.

breezy1985 · 25-01-2021 7:18pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A tiny fraction of that number will try to cause trouble against extreme odds. A British government intent on making a UI work and an Irish government the same. The whole rest of the EU and the Americans also.

If they were to mount a campaign capable of destabilising any constitutuional they would be first have to arm and equip themselves to do that. And to achieve what?

You'll get 100,000 marching in protest and then they will go home and do, what the evidence since the Anglo Irish Agreement suggests...get on with it.

I don't think a UI will be the same as NI in the UK anyway. Nationalists always had the possible tangible dream of a United Ireland to fight for where as once a single island country happens what will be left to fight for. There will be no hope of a return to a UK that doesn't want them and thinks all the "Paddy's" are the same anyway and the only fight left will be to cling to an Irish devolution

Podge_irl · 25-01-2021 7:24pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A border poll by it's nature will be divisive just as not having one will be divisive if the support is there. There can be no breach of the GFA as the McCord case showed. The SoS does not have to justify why he/she decides nor set critieria - something the present incumbent has just reiterated.

They also don't have to call one even if it appears overwhelmingly supported by the same logic.

The current govt won't call a border poll and nor, I imagine, will any UK govt unless there is significantly more than 50% support over a sustained period.

25-01-2021 7:24pm

blanch152 wrote: »

It isn't the job of any police force to batter protestors.

Should be.

Del.Monte · 25-01-2021 8:03pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Before any referendum, it has to be certain that the centre ground will vote for it, otherwise a close result either way would be disaster.

The moderate Unionist must be in favour, as must the Nationalists. It must be clear that they will all be secure in a United Ireland, with no downsides.

I think you have answered your own point here. A Unionist is someone who believes in the union with GB not the Republic and like turkeys they aren't going to vote for Christmas.

blanch152 · 25-01-2021 8:05pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

They also don't have to call one even if it appears overwhelmingly supported by the same logic.

The current govt won't call a border poll and nor, I imagine, will any UK govt unless there is significantly more than 50% support over a sustained period.

This is the point lost on those calling for a border poll.

They ignore the fact that support for a united Ireland has dropped by over 3% in a year.

FrancieBrady · 25-01-2021 8:07pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

I think you have answered your own point here. A Unionist is someone who believes in the union with GB not the Republic and like turkeys they aren't going to vote for Christmas.

You can opt not to be a Unionist. I know several Unionist farmers around here...Westminster and the Queen can sling their hook before they'll put their land under threat would sum up their current opinions.

25-01-2021 8:10pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You can opt not to be a Unionist. I know several Unionist farmers around here...Westminster and the Queen can sling their hook before they'll put their land under threat would sum up their current opinions.

I know plenty of ‘nationalists’ that are happy to stay put in the UK too so long as they don’t have to pay a GP and pay low tax/insurance for the cheaper car.

Wilhelm III · 25-01-2021 8:11pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

I think you have answered your own point here. A Unionist is someone who believes in the union with GB not the Republic and like turkeys they aren't going to vote for Christmas.

A moderate... Protestant then, somebody who is traditionally Unionist - but sees and accepts that the 'mainland' does not give one single sh*t about them, and thinks to themselves 'well, do you know what - what the hell do we have to lose?'.

FrancieBrady · 25-01-2021 8:12pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

I know plenty of ‘nationalists’ that are happy to stay put in the UK too so long as they don’t have to pay a GP and play low tax for the cheaper car.

Absolutely. But if Unionists can be convinced I think they would be easier.

Sam Russell · 25-01-2021 8:39pm

Remember, Loyalists are loyal to the Crown, but more so to the half-crown.

Money talks, and Brexit will mean money missing from NI, while a UI will mean money and FDI coming to NI - from Dublin, GB, USA, and the EU.

If it is obvious that following a vote for UI that the economy will boom, then UI might become unstoppable.

Podge_irl · 25-01-2021 8:54pm

I would be pretty loathe to subscribe to the idea that potential economic prosperity will drive Unionists towards the concept of a United Ireland when I don't think anyone would realistically expect the opposite to have held true in the 70s. Among the younger cohort maybe, but identity is strong in NI and there are plenty who will accept their current situation over potential greater economic values in a UI. Not least because it would not be universal - the HSCNI (NHS) would be a big loss to them for example, as well as the massive subventions and huge public sector.

Sam Russell · 25-01-2021 9:01pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I would be pretty loathe to subscribe to the idea that potential economic prosperity will drive Unionists towards the concept of a United Ireland when I don't think anyone would realistically expect the opposite to have held true in the 70s. Among the younger cohort maybe, but identity is strong in NI and there are plenty who will accept their current situation over potential greater economic values in a UI. Not least because it would not be universal - the HSCNI (NHS) would be a big loss to them for example, as well as the massive subventions and huge public sector.

The economy will be a factor in any campaign for a UI.

cgcsb · 25-01-2021 9:17pm

Unionists won't be swayed by economic arguments. After all they are unionists despite NI being currently part of the UK and also one of Europe's poorest regions. They have an infinite capability for mental gymnastics to get around simple logic. For example they'll probably tell you that NI being a destitute region is SF's fault (or sometimes as the result of a secret plot by the ROI governmenr) or when it comes to economics they'll simply point to the cost of living in NI being lower (and ignore the vast difference in incomes and general prosperity indicators). Wasting your time, waiting a decade for more to die of old age is a more productive use of time.

Unionism will just be defeated in numbers, they won't be bargained with or come to some settlement early on. They mostly voted against the GFA and mostly voted for Brexit. It's not a rational cohort you're talking about.

As for unionist terrorism in a UI, that ship has sailed. The unionist paramilitaries have no offensive capability, they did to some extent in the 1970s and early 80s but only under the strict guidance and supervision of the RUC and UK agencies. Also if groups want to recruit people they need some sort of semi-credible goal. The IRA had a united Ireland as a goal. Unionist groups post UI would fight for what exactly? an independent Antrim(ex. Belfast)?

Seth Brundle · 25-01-2021 9:35pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Unionists won't be swayed by economic arguments. After all they are unionists despite NI being currently part of the UK and also one of Europe's poorest regions.

So why did so many of them sign up for Irish passports?
"Everyone has their price!" Unionists are no different and can be bought under the right circumstances!

Podge_irl · 25-01-2021 9:39pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The economy will be a factor in any campaign for a UI.

Of course it will be a factor. It is a factor in the Scottish Independence campaign, but its worth noting that polling there suggests a majority think independence will be bad for them economically, but a majority still want independence.

It is an issue of identity for a large portion of the population. I do not think we would be expecting Republicans to be happy to stay part of the UK if it seemed better economically.

Podge_irl · 25-01-2021 9:40pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So why did so many of them sign up for Irish passports?
"Everyone has their price!" Unionists are no different and can be bought under the right circumstances!

Because they can get them for free (politically) and they don't entail any renunciation of their unionism.

UDAWINNER · 25-01-2021 9:44pm

blanch152 wrote: »

It isn't the job of any police force to batter protestors.

it's their job to prevent people breaking the law and if batons, rubber bullets need to be used, so be it

FrancieBrady · 25-01-2021 9:49pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Of course it will be a factor. It is a factor in the Scottish Independence campaign, but its worth noting that polling there suggests a majority think independence will be bad for them economically, but a majority still want independence.

It is an issue of identity for a large portion of the population. I do not think we would be expecting Republicans to be happy to stay part of the UK if it seemed better economically.

There would be some on both sides who would rather starve, but there is definitely degrees of faithfulness to identities.

Podge_irl · 25-01-2021 9:56pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There would be some on both sides who would rather starve, but there is definitely degrees of faithfulness to identities.

For sure, but its not like the alternative option is starving. It is an unsure prediction of better economic future. It's a more difficult argument to make then I think some people are portraying. When you look at the likes of farmers in NI, the last few months will have done nothing to engender them to the UK I'm sure. The current situation definitely bolsters the argument for a UI, but it will never be a purely economic decision.

cgcsb · 25-01-2021 9:57pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So why did so many of them sign up for Irish passports?
"Everyone has their price!" Unionists are no different and can be bought under the right circumstances!

Is this true though? It seems that only about half of the NI population have an Irish passport. I'd expect the vast majority of them are the nationalist half.

https://factcheckni.org/articles/do-more-than-700000-born-in-northern-ireland-have-an-irish-passport/

Sam Russell · 25-01-2021 10:08pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Because they can get them for free (politically) and they don't entail any renunciation of their unionism.

Joining a UI does not mean (necessarily) renouncing their unionism - just changing its thrust. Remember (not literally) that 100 years ago, Unionist dropped their opposition to Home Rule when it became Home Rule by Belfast rather than Home Rule by Dublin.

Some things need sorting, eg NHS vs HSE, PSNI vs Gardai, car prices and taxes, social welfare rates, public sector employment, etc etc. If they aer asked, they might come up with answers they may like, and are acceptable generally.

Unionists would be more concerned with the level of autonomy they will have.

Del.Monte · 25-01-2021 10:12pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Is this true though? It seems that only about half of the NI population have an Irish passport. I'd expect the vast majority of them are the nationalist half.

https://factcheckni.org/articles/do-more-than-700000-born-in-northern-ireland-have-an-irish-passport/

Please don't let facts get in the way of pro-unity propaganda.

storker · 25-01-2021 10:12pm

Amirani wrote: »

Remember the uproar about the RIC commemoration? We'd be having loads of unpopular commemorations.

How would people feel about having an official holiday on the 12th of July and Orange bands marching down O'Connell Street?

Just move St. Patrick's Day to the 12th of July. Double parades for double the fun.

Del.Monte · 25-01-2021 10:14pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Remember, Loyalists are loyal to the Crown, but more so to the half-crown.

Money talks, and Brexit will mean money missing from NI, while a UI will mean money and FDI coming to NI - from Dublin, GB, USA, and the EU.

If it is obvious that following a vote for UI that the economy will boom, then UI might become unstoppable.

Another tired old Republican cliche.

MrMusician18 · 25-01-2021 10:14pm

Xterminator wrote: »

A discussion would have to be had about public service employees. "As of December 2008 the public sector in Northern Ireland accounted for 30.8% of the total workforce. This is significantly higher than the overall UK figure of 19.5%"

presumably there would be a lot of synergies in civil service, tourism, agriculture etc. But t the end of the day NI would be voting to lose large chunks of its public sector jobs, and lose the annual subvention of approx 10-11 billion per annum by the UK taxpayer to fund it.

Also the NHS is far from perfect, but I would not vote to change NHS for our version of healthcare.

So before we propose unity, perhaps someone could put forward a proposal that can explain what happens to the public servants, the funding and the health service.

Unification would obviously be a 10 to 15 year project where NI is slowly transitioned to Irish public sector norms. The real question would be who would manage and pay for the transition, i.e. did sovereignty transfer at the beginning middle or end of transition.

Del.Monte · 25-01-2021 10:19pm

Wilhelm III wrote: »

A moderate... Protestant then, somebody who is traditionally Unionist - but sees and accepts that the 'mainland' does not give one single sh*t about them, and thinks to themselves 'well, do you know what - what the hell do we have to lose?'.

More red-top bs. It's like saying people in Cornwall don't give a ****e about Northumberland or any other part of the UK. Most people are parochial when it comes down to it and have no time to think about things outside of their immediate community - the bigger political picture - as they are intent on surviving or bettering their own lot.

cgcsb · 25-01-2021 10:31pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Joining a UI does not mean (necessarily) renouncing their unionism - just changing its thrust. Remember (not literally) that 100 years ago, Unionist dropped their opposition to Home Rule when it became Home Rule by Belfast rather than Home Rule by Dublin.

Some things need sorting, eg NHS vs HSE, PSNI vs Gardai, car prices and taxes, social welfare rates, public sector employment, etc etc. If they aer asked, they might come up with answers they may like, and are acceptable generally.

Unionists would be more concerned with the level of autonomy they will have.

At that point (likely from the 2022 election on) the NI assembly will be dominated by nationalist parties so not sure what the point of 'autonomy' would be from a unionist perspective. At that point they'd probably prefer Dublin rule to Belfast rule, given that local nationalists may be harboring just a little grudge. There's no way 'power-sharing' would continue in a regional assembly in a UI, far too much conflict with the constitution.

cgcsb · 25-01-2021 10:32pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Another tired old Republican cliche.

Recent events with the DUP at Westminster are testament to the accuracy of this statement though.

26-01-2021 2:12am

Del.Monte wrote: »

More red-top bs. It's like saying people in Cornwall don't give a ****e about Northumberland or any other part of the UK. Most people are parochial when it comes down to it and have no time to think about things outside of their immediate community - the bigger political picture - as they are intent on surviving or bettering their own lot.

Scotland is miles away from Cornwall too but you see a difference when Scotland leaving is discussed vs Northern Ireland. They would generally be sorry to see Scotland go. Its just not the same with Northern Ireland. They are not a valued part of the union like Scotland or Wales is.

Chips Lovell · 26-01-2021 7:29am

Mod Note

Few posts deleted. Anymore talk about communities being "battered" or needing to "f**k off across the water" will result in a sanction.

Also bear in mind that posts solely or mostly consisting of pictures, memes, links, or videos are against the charter. This is a discussion forum.

Thanks

FrancieBrady · 26-01-2021 10:01am

Deleted User wrote: »

Scotland is miles away from Cornwall too but you see a difference when Scotland leaving is discussed vs Northern Ireland. They would generally be sorry to see Scotland go. Its just not the same with Northern Ireland. They are not a valued part of the union like Scotland or Wales is.

I also think guilt figures a lot in British thinking. I have some busiess contacts in Luton, classic Union Jack towel at the swimming pool couple, always posting Brexit stuff to Facebook who constantly apologise for what happened in Ireland. They know it wasn't their finest hour and have a wish to put it right. There is a lot of that across Britain and finds voice in some parliamenterians too.

breezy1985 · 26-01-2021 10:42am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I also think guilt figures a lot in British thinking. I have some busiess contacts in Luton, classic Union Jack towel at the swimming pool couple, always posting Brexit stuff to Facebook who constantly apologise for what happened in Ireland. They know it wasn't their finest hour and have a wish to put it right. There is a lot of that across Britain and finds voice in some parliamenterians too.

Not the experience I had. Anyone I worked with or knew didnt have a clue what the troubles were or what NI was. All of them came running to me asking what Dup was after the election and any time I mentioned that parts of the UK did not allow gay marraige all I ever got back was that I was wrong, "whats NI" or "thats not really the UK"

All were 35 or under so maybe that plays a part but these people also thought they were very politically active

FrancieBrady · 26-01-2021 10:49am

breezy1985 wrote: »

Not the experience I had. Anyone I worked with or knew didnt have a clue what the troubles were or what NI was. All of them came running to me asking what Dup was after the election and any time I mentioned that parts of the UK did not allow gay marraige all I ever got back was that I was wrong, "whats NI" or "thats not really the UK"

All were 35 or under so maybe that plays a part but these people also thought they were very politically active

I wasn't saying that all that isn't there too. I was just pointing out the presence of guilt with some.

My most common experience would be the same as yours...total ignorance of the history and geography.

Sam Russell · 26-01-2021 10:55am

breezy1985 wrote: »

Not the experience I had. Anyone I worked with or knew didnt have a clue what the troubles were or what NI was. All of them came running to me asking what Dup was after the election and any time I mentioned that parts of the UK did not allow gay marraige all I ever got back was that I was wrong, "whats NI" or "thats not really the UK"

All were 35 or under so maybe that plays a part but these people also thought they were very politically active

When Harold Wilson was trying to dissuade Ian Smith from declaring UDI in Rhodesia and establish 'One man - One vote' (as the indigenous population did not automatically get a vote) Ian Smith replied that you do not even have one man one vote in the UK. Wilson replied that that was not true - but Ian Smith pointed out that in NI some voters got as many as six votes while other got one, giving rise to Unionist majorities that should not have existed.

Wilson admitted that he was not aware of this, but checked and found it to be true. Punctured his belief in UK democracy a bit. So an English Labour PM was not aware of a lack of democracy in NI - what a surprise. I wonder if he cared enough about it to do anything.

Ian Smith did declare UDI - and now, following a bit of aggro, the name of the former Rhodesia is Zimbabwe.

Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

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