Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

Wilhelm III

Renault 5 wrote: »

No. I’m not from the north.

I don't quite understand why you think our cultures are so far apart then? Nor do I quite understand how you feel qualified (for want of a better word, I'm not saying you are not...) to say? I could perhaps understand somebody who was of a Unionist persuasion might feel this way, I would disagree AND agree with them, to a certain extent - but at least I would understand. I've been all over NI, I've been to the place a THOUSAND times - literally. And I don't see, nor have I ever felt - this vast 'culture gap' you refer to. There's definitely SOME differences - but Jesus Christ, they are few and far between.

lawred2

Wilhelm III wrote: »

The Northern Irish are not an uncontacted, hunter-gatherer Amazonian tribe who hunt spider-monkeys with poisoned arrows - they're Dohertys and Wilsons, Murphys and Smiths, Hegartys and Campbells - culture gap indeed !

The "culture gap" whatever it is would be gone in a generation at most

liamog

lawred2 wrote: »

The "culture gap" whatever it is would be gone in a generation at most

I moved from northern England to Banbridge when I was 16, then moved to Dublin when I was 21. I felt there was far more of a culture gap between Manchester and Belfast than there is between Belfast and Dublin. Some of the more deprived areas had a bit of us versus them culture, but I found it similar enough to what you see between Sheriff St and the IFSC just more colourful.

Kaybaykwah

There was an Orangeman in the White House. He just got kicked out.

RobbingBandit

NHS, ROYAL MAIL, BRITISH TELECOM

HSE, AN POST, EIR.

Ain't no way anyone over the border would take on any such change never mind the change of Police or the fact that distance for speed limits is imperial rather than metric over the border too.

Pete_Cavan

The funniest thing is that the culture and history that Unionists celebrate is pretty exclusive to this island. There was obvious involvement from across the water at the time but that has faded into irrelevance there over the past couple of hundred years, save when the IRA brought it back to them. Ask most English people in what country did the Dutch king win the Battle of the Boyne, they'd probably say Belgium. They'd probably think the Orange Order is an eighties electronica cover band. The cultural differences bewteen Unionists and Brits is far bigger than that with us.

LuasSimon

road_high wrote: »

I don’t think we on the South have “seriously” considered the costs and process of reunification. I know a lot that would be very lukewarm about the idea, even against it. We are very contented down here with no sectarianism or any of that baggage.
Serious road ahead of that’s what’s going to happen

It will be like Germany reunification there will be costs but the EU like Germany will share some of the financial costs . It won’t be up to people like you worried only about yourself. , the island should be finally a United Ireland for all the generations after us .

L1011

RobbingBandit wrote: »

NHS, ROYAL MAIL, BRITISH TELECOM

HSE, AN POST, EIR.

Ain't no way anyone over the border would take on any such change never mind the change of Police or the fact that distance for speed limits is imperial rather than metric over the border too.

The latter two in that list are superior to their UK equivalents and have been for some time.

The HSC - the NHS does not exist in NI - will be run down to the HSEs level within a few years at current funding

You may not remember but we did a big bang speed limit change 16 years ago. It'd be easier to do the same in a smaller area with a single roads authority (NIRS) versus the 40 or so we had at the time (NRA, County Councils, City Councils, County Boroughs); and we only replaced miles road signs for kilometres when they wore out.

Additionally, Northern Ireland has also replaced its police force within quite recent living memory anyway.

L1011

L1011 wrote: »

The latter two in that list are superior to their UK equivalents and have been for some time.

The HSC - the NHS does not exist in NI - will be run down to the HSEs level within a few years at current funding

You may not remember but we did a big bang speed limit change 16 years ago. It'd be easier to do the same in a smaller area with a single roads authority (NIRS) versus the 40 or so we had at the time (NRA, County Councils, City Councils, County Boroughs); and we only replaced miles road signs for kilometres when they wore out.

Additionally, Northern Ireland has also replaced its police force within quite recent living memory anyway.

Can I just confirm something.

When you mention eir, are talking about the telecoms company that used to be eircom?

The only thing they are superior to is two tin cans linked together with a piece of string.

L1011

Aegir wrote: »

Can I just confirm something.

When you mention eir, are talking about the telecoms company that used to be eircom?

The only thing they are superior to is two tin cans linked together with a piece of string.

Openeir, the infrastructure side, as that what was being discussed despite the Eir parent firm name being used

They are superior in technology, performance and implementation to Openreach in the UK - the equivalent under BT

The Eir vs BT consumer arms are about as bad as each other.

L1011

L1011 wrote: »

Openeir, the infrastructure side, as that what was being discussed despite the Eir parent firm name being used

They are superior in technology, performance and implementation to Openreach in the UK - the equivalent under BT

The Eir vs BT consumer arms are about as bad as each other.

BT must have seriously dropped the ball over the last few years since I left the industry.

L1011

Aegir wrote: »

BT must have seriously dropped the ball over the last few years since I left the industry.

BT don't have to compete with the Irish arm of Virgin.

UK has much patchier cable coverage - Central London has nothing, for instance - with much of it capping out at 108Mbit/sec; whereas Ireland has near total urban and suburban coverage at 1Gbit/sec.

End result is underinvestment and technological stagnation.

cgcsb

RobbingBandit wrote: »

NHS, ROYAL MAIL, BRITISH TELECOM

HSE, AN POST, EIR.

Ain't no way anyone over the border would take on any such change never mind the change of Police or the fact that distance for speed limits is imperial rather than metric over the border too.

Sorry but Royal Mail is an absolute sh!te show with very poor quality service and a rather large number of missing items. An Post is vastly superior service.

BT vs Eir. Don't know if there's any real difference tbh it all depends on your location rural/urban.

Whatever about the NHS in England, in NI it's cac, waiting lists forever and that's just to see a GP, never mind a specialist. The average ROI lifespan is 2 years longer than the NI lifespan for a reason.

Imperial measurements are an archaic embarrassment. They should be scrapped wherever in the world they still remain.

liamog

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The funniest thing is that the culture and history that Unionists celebrate is pretty exclusive to this island. There was obvious involvement from across the water at the time but that has faded into irrelevance there over the past couple of hundred years, save when the IRA brought it back to them. Ask most English people in what country did the Dutch king win the Battle of the Boyne, they'd probably say Belgium. They'd probably think the Orange Order is an eighties electronica cover band. The cultural differences bewteen Unionists and Brits is far bigger than that with us.

Liverpool has a strong Orange Order, they hold an annual march in Southport

Kaybaykwah

liamog wrote: »

Liverpool has a strong Orange Order, they hold an annual march in Southport

So, whosoever says there are no people in England remotely bothered by the prospect of Irish Unification was clearly off the mark.


It would be pretty easy to engage in a bit of "ugly and fat shaming" when looking at these paraders, but I won't let myself slip into this.

L1011

Liverpool has an imported mini version of NI in that regard. There was an IPP MP for Liverpool, who actually ended up being the last IPP MP at all - until 1929.

Even Digbeth or Kilburn would have struggled to repeat that.

Kaybaykwah

L1011 wrote: »

Liverpool has an imported mini version of NI in that regard. There was an IPP MP for Liverpool, who actually ended up being the last IPP MP at all - until 1929.

Even Digbeth or Kilburn would have struggled to repeat that.

That guy was a powerhouse, not just sitting on his credentials.

The_Fitz

In my mind there is only one issue stopping reunification in Ireland.

The fact that southern cinemas appear to me to only stock salted popcorn and not sweet. Absolutely stinking and would make anyone reconsider the constitutional position that they have held so dear.

liamog

The_Fitz wrote: »

The fact that southern cinemas appear to me to only stock salted popcorn and not sweet. Absolutely stinking and would make anyone reconsider the constitutional position that they have held so dear.

+100, I want this as a requirement of any constitutional settlement.

Mimon

liamog wrote: »

Liverpool has a strong Orange Order, they hold an annual march in Southport

Meh. The North West of England has 8 or 9 million people.

A few hundred people stuck in the past/brainwashed by their parents is not significant.

I'd say 99% of people from that region even with a huge Irish influence wouldn't have a clue what the march was about.

ancapailldorcha

Serious posts only please. Lazy generalisations, insults and so on may be deleted and users sanctioned.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Serious posts only please. Lazy generalisations, insults and so on may be deleted and users sanctioned.

Three posts deleted.

Kaybaykwah

Mimon wrote: »

Meh. The North West of England has 8 or 9 million people.

A few hundred people stuck in the past/brainwashed by their parents is not significant.

I'd say 99% of people from that region even with a huge Irish influence wouldn't have a clue what the march was about.

Emm, don't want to rain on your parade but, did you notice how many people were walking in that march?

Wilhelm III

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

Emm, don't want to rain on your parade but, did you notice how many people were walking in that march?

About two and half, three thousand tops I'd say, not a huge number - and I'd say MANY of them were from the North, Scotland - and other parts of England.

Mimon

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

Emm, don't want to rain on your parade but, did you notice how many people were walking in that march?

A couple of thousand out of that "catchment area" is miniscule. They are totally insignificant and irrevelant. Can imagine most of the locals look on in bewilderment.

One of the bands from Bootle looked like they are mixing far left/communist ideals with Loyalism their red uniform and red star with crown on top. Bonkers

liamog

Billy Owens, Provincial Grand Master, says that there are 92 lodges of the order in ten districts in Liverpool, with another 20 in Bootle, which forms a separate province.

The roots of the Orange Order in England go back over 200 years, when it was introduced to Manchester by soldiers returning from Ireland. In the early days, Manchester was the main hub for English Orangeism - orange being the name and colour of the Royal Dutch house of King William III of England, the 'King Billy' of Northern Ireland's troubled history.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-northerner/2012/jun/21/liverpool-northernireland

It largely grew as a protestant reaction to large scale catholic migration into the North West, my Dad attended a Christian Brothers school in the area. Both side's are a result of Irish emigration.

opawaman

Wilhelm III wrote: »

I for one would welcome it - the Orange Order, like it or not - are part of the tradition on this island. And with regards to marching down O'Connell Street - well... so what? As long as it is in a unified Republic of Ireland - does it really matter? If it makes them happy - I'm all for it. Less of the us versus them mentality - and more of the 'look-at-us-all-finally-getting-on-we're-all-equally-disfunctional-together-now-but-at-least-we're-together-let's-celebrate-our-similarities-not-or-differences-we're-more-alike-than-not mentality.

Those who take to marching are just the Canon fodder types, In a united Ireland this marching crap should be abolished , A new Flag would be the most important part in stepping forward to peace,. Religion could be abolished and cultural expressions curtailed. Both sides would have to adopt civilized mannerisms.

Wilhelm III

opawaman wrote: »

Those who take to marching are just the Canon fodder types, In a united Ireland this marching crap should be abolished , A new Flag would be the most important part in stepping forward to peace,. Religion could be abolished and cultural expressions curtailed. Both sides would have to adopt civilized mannerisms.

Is it only the Orange Order that should be banned from marching? What about the hundreds of marching bands across Ireland? No St. Patrick's Day marches? Town Festivals? Fleadh Ceoils? What about the Defense Forces? That seems a bit unfair to the Orange lads does it not? I would assume in a United Ireland, attendance to an Orange Order march will be not be compulsory.

The flag – I love the Irish flag, I think it has great meaning - and is a great design, however - I don't disagree with you. I think a new flag would be a highly symbolic gesture, and one which could be received well. And I don't know if I'm reading you correctly - but... abolish Religion!? Eh... yeah, no. I don't think that would be quite fair either? You do realise Ireland, North and South has millions of religious folk? Sounds all a bit too... I don't know - communist? Fascist? I can't quite tell which! Both!?

Harry Palmr

When this topic comes up the lack of inclusive generousity is notable for a people who supposedly yearn for the teddy bears head.

Sam Russell

Wilhelm III wrote: »

The flag – I love the Irish flag, I think it has great meaning - and is a great design, however - I don't disagree with you. I think a new flag would be a highly symbolic gesture, and one which could be received well.

The Irish flag is already the right flag - Green and Orange with a white section for peace between them. The Indian flag copied it because they were the second country to break from the British Empire. They put a spinning wheel on the white bit, and had the colours horizontal.

If the flag had to be changed, I would add a golden harp into the white section to make it more symbolic of Ireland - I do not think the shamrock as used by Aer Lingus would be appropriate.

JasonStatham

Amirani wrote: »

Remember the uproar about the RIC commemoration? We'd be having loads of unpopular commemorations.

How would people feel about having an official holiday on the 12th of July and Orange bands marching down O'Connell Street?

Can we all get the public holiday? Then I have no problem with Orangemen marching.

JasonStatham

JasonStatham wrote: »

Can we all get the public holiday? Then I have no problem with Orangemen marching.

So long as they put us down some loose masonry on O’Connell street again for the day out.

Wilhelm III

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Irish flag is already the right flag - Green and Orange with a white section for peace between them. The Indian flag copied it because they were the second country to break from the British Empire. They put a spinning wheel on the white bit, and had the colours horizontal.

If the flag had to be changed, I would add a golden harp into the white section to make it more symbolic of Ireland - I do not think the shamrock as used by Aer Lingus would be appropriate.

I don't disagree - I just have a feeling a lot of our friends in the North would have a serious aversion to the Tricolour, I fear they don't even SEE the colour orange on there, in theory you couldn't get a more appropriate flag - in reality, I fear that is viewed in some quarters as a symbol of the enemy. Ultimately - to me, speaking personally - a unified Republic of Ireland is more important than the flag which will represent it, as much as I love dearly our flag.

BUT HEY! I like to keep an open mind! It might be the case that a REAL and public discussion on this topic, when the time comes - might indeed change minds, and win hearts - with regards to the already, simplistically profound symbolism of the Irish flag, the flag might not need changing at all. Whatever the case is - we will want to make sure those joining us WANT to join us, that they WANT to be a part of the country - that they WANT a seat at the table - otherwise, how will it ever succeed? The path to peace is paved in compromise, understanding, respect for each other, trust and goodwill from all involved - and if that means a new flag, one that we can all agree on, and get behind - then as far as I am concerned – so be it.

Oh – and Shamrock!? Come on!?!? The Shamrock would be a quality flag!

Mr.Nice Guy

I think there would have to be a new flag. I like the tricolour but unionists will never accept it since they associate it with paramilitaries. Telling them the flag is supposed to represent peace between traditions will ring hollow, seeing as they have seen it draped over the coffins of those who tried to blow their community to bits.

Personally, I don't think a new flag is a big deal. It's not like people will be denied the chance to fly a tricolour in their front garden or hang it on their wall or whatever. It just means we would need something without historical baggage for ceremonies, sporting events and whatnot.

I would prefer a new flag to have a shamrock on it since that's one of the rare symbols of Ireland all sides accept, it's known around the world for being an Irish emblem, and it isn't overly associated with one particular province. Canada managed to make an iconic flag with their national leaf and I don't see why that should be beyond us, especially as I think a shamrock looks better than a maple leaf.

Wilhelm III

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

So long as they put us down some loose masonry on O’Connell street again for the day out.

I like your thinking Reggie - loose masonry, to build with!! You're probably thinking some sort of... monument of peace, a symbol of togetherness? An acknowledgement of differences, juxtaposed with our undeniable similarities!? I do like how you're thinking - but maybe an actual sculpture / statue would be more... or do you know what actually – the... rustic nature of the loose stone might be quite nice you know, a kind of... homely, natural simplicity!

Whatever the case - I like your thinking, building together is good!!

ZeroThreat

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think there would have to be a new flag. I like the tricolour but unionists will never accept it since they associate it with paramilitaries. Telling them the flag is supposed to represent peace between traditions will ring hollow, seeing as they have seen it draped over the coffins of those who tried to blow their community to bits.

Personally, I don't think a new flag is a big deal. It's not like people will be denied the chance to fly a tricolour in their front garden or hang it on their wall or whatever. It just means we would need something without historical baggage for ceremonies, sporting events and whatnot.

I would prefer a new flag to have a shamrock on it since that's one of the rare symbols of Ireland all sides accept, it's known around the world for being an Irish emblem, and it isn't overly associated with one particular province. Canada managed to make an iconic flag with their national leaf and I don't see why that should be beyond us, especially as I think a shamrock looks better than a maple leaf.

I doubt Unionists would accept a shamrock flag - didn't a former unionist lambast the Irish for having a 'culture based on shamrocks and guinness' or something to that effect?

They'd probably be willing to go with a flag composed of mainly union jack, with a small harp in the corner.

Charles Babbage

In the poll published in tomorrow's Times, it is 42% for United Ireland, 47% against and 11% don't know, with a majority of under 45s favouring unity. Nothing too radical there, however there is a question as to whether people would welcome a United Ireland, and this is 47/47. This suggests that the "don't knows" are very open to persuasion, if they get the right answers from the proposals.
Northern Irish voters also think there will be a united Ireland within 10 years by a margin of 48 per cent to 44 per cent. This reflects that the 47% who welcome a UI would be 50% in that period, given the age profile.

As for the flag, the present one seems fine to me, but if a change it needed

StupidLikeAFox

Would any party in the south actively campaign for a no vote in a unity referendum?

Wilhelm III

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Would any party in the south actively campaign for a no vote in a unity referendum?

I wouldn't think so... MAYBE* Fianna Fáil and / or Fine Gael – but I'd be surprised if any of the other parties campaigned for a No vote.

*Obviously being sarcastic, but still - you could almost believe it...

NIMAN

Charles Babbage wrote: »

As for the flag, the present one seems fine to me, but if a change it needed

So you think 750,000 protestants in the North will accept losing the union flag for the Irish tricolour, with no problem?

Good luck with that.

Charles Babbage

Wilhelm III wrote: »

I don't disagree - I just have a feeling a lot of our friends in the North would have a serious aversion to the Tricolour, I fear they don't even SEE the colour orange on there, in theory you couldn't get a more appropriate flag - in reality, I fear that is viewed in some quarters as a symbol of the enemy. Ultimately - to me, speaking personally - a unified Republic of Ireland is more important than the flag which will represent it, as much as I love dearly our flag.

BUT HEY! I like to keep an open mind! It might be the case that a REAL and public discussion on this topic, when the time comes - might indeed change minds, and win hearts - with regards to the already, simplistically profound symbolism of the Irish flag, the flag might not need changing at all. Whatever the case is - we will want to make sure those joining us WANT to join us, that they WANT to be a part of the country - that they WANT a seat at the table - otherwise, how will it ever succeed? The path to peace is paved in compromise, understanding, respect for each other, trust and goodwill from all involved - and if that means a new flag, one that we can all agree on, and get behind - then as far as I am concerned – so be it.

Oh – and Shamrock!? Come on!?!? The Shamrock would be a quality flag!

NIMAN wrote: »

So you think 750,000 protestants in the North will accept losing the union flag for the Irish tricolour, with no problem?

Good luck with that.

Why should there be a problem? The symbology of the flag is fine and the majority of people will have voted to abolish NI at that point.

StupidLikeAFox

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Why should there be a problem? The symbology of the flag is fine and the majority of people will have voted to abolish NI at that point.

Certain groups literally burn it every year, they are not going to accept it.

Charles Babbage

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

Certain groups literally burn it every year, they are not going to accept it.

My business idea is to buy all the old tricolours and sell them on 11 July.

Charles Babbage

Charles Babbage wrote: »

My business idea is to buy all the old tricolours and sell them on 11 July.

You’d regularly see small shops up there advertising tricolours for burning around that time of year.
It’s not just a certain element either. Unionists young and old, from school kids to housewives to doctors foam at the mouth in delight at around that bonfire every year.

GrumpyMe

Amirani wrote: »

...How would people feel about having an official holiday on the 12th of July and Orange bands marching down O'Connell Street?...

As long as they have to march home by the traditional route(s) M1/M2/M3...:D

FrancieBrady

GrumpyMe wrote: »

As long as they have to march home by the traditional route(s) M1/M2/M3...:D

I don't get the 'problem' people make of this aspect. As long as nobody is allowed to antaginise, triumphalise or promote hate and bigotry, what odds who marches down O'Connell Street?
Like the St. Patrick's Day parade it will only be of interest to those celebrating the event.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't get the 'problem' people make of this aspect. As long as nobody is allowed to antaginise, triumphalise or promote hate and bigotry, what odds who marches down O'Connell Street?
Like the St. Patrick's Day parade it will only be of interest to those celebrating the event.

Because it has no place in Ireland and it would be a regression to go back to it.

bilbot79

I know it's a little bit 'ethnic cleansy' but I reckon if the Irish government sponsored every unionist who renounced Irish/Northern Irish citizenship say 25k to help with a deposit on a house in the UK everyone would be a winner.

ReginaldSmythV

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

Because it has no place in Ireland and it would be a regression to go back to it.

If a portion of the population of Ireland wish to mark their history & culture or whatever, then there should be No issue.
When you see some of the groups that match down I Connell at on any normal Saturday, I would much prefer to see an organised orange order march!

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

If a portion of the population of Ireland wish to mark their history & culture or whatever, then there should be No issue.
When you see some of the groups that match down I Connell at on any normal Saturday, I would much prefer to see an organised orange order march!

They’re not a portion of the population of Ireland though and hopefully never will be.

I’d still be fairly confident that the Irish will see sense when the truth comes out in an actual referendum, though we do need some brave party to step up and do what’s best in running a proper No campaign.