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Brexit Impact on Northern Ireland

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,592 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Serious posts only please. Lazy generalisations, insults and so on may be deleted and users sanctioned.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,592 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Serious posts only please. Lazy generalisations, insults and so on may be deleted and users sanctioned.

    Three posts deleted.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,099 ✭✭✭Kaybaykwah


    Mimon wrote: »
    Meh. The North West of England has 8 or 9 million people.

    A few hundred people stuck in the past/brainwashed by their parents is not significant.

    I'd say 99% of people from that region even with a huge Irish influence wouldn't have a clue what the march was about.

    Emm, don't want to rain on your parade but, did you notice how many people were walking in that march?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 105 ✭✭Wilhelm III


    Kaybaykwah wrote: »
    Emm, don't want to rain on your parade but, did you notice how many people were walking in that march?
    About two and half, three thousand tops I'd say, not a huge number - and I'd say MANY of them were from the North, Scotland - and other parts of England.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭Mimon


    Kaybaykwah wrote: »
    Emm, don't want to rain on your parade but, did you notice how many people were walking in that march?

    A couple of thousand out of that "catchment area" is miniscule. They are totally insignificant and irrevelant. Can imagine most of the locals look on in bewilderment.

    One of the bands from Bootle looked like they are mixing far left/communist ideals with Loyalism their red uniform and red star with crown on top. Bonkers :D


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,835 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Billy Owens, Provincial Grand Master, says that there are 92 lodges of the order in ten districts in Liverpool, with another 20 in Bootle, which forms a separate province.

    The roots of the Orange Order in England go back over 200 years, when it was introduced to Manchester by soldiers returning from Ireland. In the early days, Manchester was the main hub for English Orangeism - orange being the name and colour of the Royal Dutch house of King William III of England, the 'King Billy' of Northern Ireland's troubled history.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/the-northerner/2012/jun/21/liverpool-northernireland

    It largely grew as a protestant reaction to large scale catholic migration into the North West, my Dad attended a Christian Brothers school in the area. Both side's are a result of Irish emigration.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34 opawaman


    I for one would welcome it - the Orange Order, like it or not - are part of the tradition on this island. And with regards to marching down O'Connell Street - well... so what? As long as it is in a unified Republic of Ireland - does it really matter? If it makes them happy - I'm all for it. Less of the us versus them mentality - and more of the 'look-at-us-all-finally-getting-on-we're-all-equally-disfunctional-together-now-but-at-least-we're-together-let's-celebrate-our-similarities-not-or-differences-we're-more-alike-than-not mentality.
    Those who take to marching are just the Canon fodder types, In a united Ireland this marching crap should be abolished , A new Flag would be the most important part in stepping forward to peace,. Religion could be abolished and cultural expressions curtailed. Both sides would have to adopt civilized mannerisms.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 105 ✭✭Wilhelm III


    opawaman wrote: »
    Those who take to marching are just the Canon fodder types, In a united Ireland this marching crap should be abolished , A new Flag would be the most important part in stepping forward to peace,. Religion could be abolished and cultural expressions curtailed. Both sides would have to adopt civilized mannerisms.
    Is it only the Orange Order that should be banned from marching? What about the hundreds of marching bands across Ireland? No St. Patrick's Day marches? Town Festivals? Fleadh Ceoils? What about the Defense Forces? That seems a bit unfair to the Orange lads does it not? I would assume in a United Ireland, attendance to an Orange Order march will be not be compulsory.

    The flag – I love the Irish flag, I think it has great meaning - and is a great design, however - I don't disagree with you. I think a new flag would be a highly symbolic gesture, and one which could be received well. And I don't know if I'm reading you correctly - but... abolish Religion!? Eh... yeah, no. I don't think that would be quite fair either? You do realise Ireland, North and South has millions of religious folk? Sounds all a bit too... I don't know - communist? Fascist? I can't quite tell which! Both!?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    When this topic comes up the lack of inclusive generousity is notable for a people who supposedly yearn for the teddy bears head.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The flag – I love the Irish flag, I think it has great meaning - and is a great design, however - I don't disagree with you. I think a new flag would be a highly symbolic gesture, and one which could be received well.

    The Irish flag is already the right flag - Green and Orange with a white section for peace between them. The Indian flag copied it because they were the second country to break from the British Empire. They put a spinning wheel on the white bit, and had the colours horizontal.

    If the flag had to be changed, I would add a golden harp into the white section to make it more symbolic of Ireland - I do not think the shamrock as used by Aer Lingus would be appropriate.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 548 ✭✭✭JasonStatham


    Amirani wrote: »
    Remember the uproar about the RIC commemoration? We'd be having loads of unpopular commemorations.

    How would people feel about having an official holiday on the 12th of July and Orange bands marching down O'Connell Street?

    Can we all get the public holiday? Then I have no problem with Orangemen marching.


  • Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Can we all get the public holiday? Then I have no problem with Orangemen marching.

    So long as they put us down some loose masonry on O’Connell street again for the day out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 105 ✭✭Wilhelm III


    The Irish flag is already the right flag - Green and Orange with a white section for peace between them. The Indian flag copied it because they were the second country to break from the British Empire. They put a spinning wheel on the white bit, and had the colours horizontal.

    If the flag had to be changed, I would add a golden harp into the white section to make it more symbolic of Ireland - I do not think the shamrock as used by Aer Lingus would be appropriate.
    I don't disagree - I just have a feeling a lot of our friends in the North would have a serious aversion to the Tricolour, I fear they don't even SEE the colour orange on there, in theory you couldn't get a more appropriate flag - in reality, I fear that is viewed in some quarters as a symbol of the enemy. Ultimately - to me, speaking personally - a unified Republic of Ireland is more important than the flag which will represent it, as much as I love dearly our flag.

    BUT HEY! I like to keep an open mind! It might be the case that a REAL and public discussion on this topic, when the time comes - might indeed change minds, and win hearts - with regards to the already, simplistically profound symbolism of the Irish flag, the flag might not need changing at all. Whatever the case is - we will want to make sure those joining us WANT to join us, that they WANT to be a part of the country - that they WANT a seat at the table - otherwise, how will it ever succeed? The path to peace is paved in compromise, understanding, respect for each other, trust and goodwill from all involved - and if that means a new flag, one that we can all agree on, and get behind - then as far as I am concerned – so be it.

    Oh – and Shamrock!? Come on!?!? The Shamrock would be a quality flag!


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,552 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    I think there would have to be a new flag. I like the tricolour but unionists will never accept it since they associate it with paramilitaries. Telling them the flag is supposed to represent peace between traditions will ring hollow, seeing as they have seen it draped over the coffins of those who tried to blow their community to bits.

    Personally, I don't think a new flag is a big deal. It's not like people will be denied the chance to fly a tricolour in their front garden or hang it on their wall or whatever. It just means we would need something without historical baggage for ceremonies, sporting events and whatnot.

    I would prefer a new flag to have a shamrock on it since that's one of the rare symbols of Ireland all sides accept, it's known around the world for being an Irish emblem, and it isn't overly associated with one particular province. Canada managed to make an iconic flag with their national leaf and I don't see why that should be beyond us, especially as I think a shamrock looks better than a maple leaf.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 105 ✭✭Wilhelm III


    So long as they put us down some loose masonry on O’Connell street again for the day out.
    I like your thinking Reggie - loose masonry, to build with!! You're probably thinking some sort of... monument of peace, a symbol of togetherness? An acknowledgement of differences, juxtaposed with our undeniable similarities!? I do like how you're thinking - but maybe an actual sculpture / statue would be more... or do you know what actually – the... rustic nature of the loose stone might be quite nice you know, a kind of... homely, natural simplicity!

    Whatever the case - I like your thinking, building together is good!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭ZeroThreat


    I think there would have to be a new flag. I like the tricolour but unionists will never accept it since they associate it with paramilitaries. Telling them the flag is supposed to represent peace between traditions will ring hollow, seeing as they have seen it draped over the coffins of those who tried to blow their community to bits.

    Personally, I don't think a new flag is a big deal. It's not like people will be denied the chance to fly a tricolour in their front garden or hang it on their wall or whatever. It just means we would need something without historical baggage for ceremonies, sporting events and whatnot.

    I would prefer a new flag to have a shamrock on it since that's one of the rare symbols of Ireland all sides accept, it's known around the world for being an Irish emblem, and it isn't overly associated with one particular province. Canada managed to make an iconic flag with their national leaf and I don't see why that should be beyond us, especially as I think a shamrock looks better than a maple leaf.

    I doubt Unionists would accept a shamrock flag - didn't a former unionist lambast the Irish for having a 'culture based on shamrocks and guinness' or something to that effect?

    They'd probably be willing to go with a flag composed of mainly union jack, with a small harp in the corner.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    In the poll published in tomorrow's Times, it is 42% for United Ireland, 47% against and 11% don't know, with a majority of under 45s favouring unity. Nothing too radical there, however there is a question as to whether people would welcome a United Ireland, and this is 47/47. This suggests that the "don't knows" are very open to persuasion, if they get the right answers from the proposals.
    Northern Irish voters also think there will be a united Ireland within 10 years by a margin of 48 per cent to 44 per cent. This reflects that the 47% who welcome a UI would be 50% in that period, given the age profile.

    As for the flag, the present one seems fine to me, but if a change it needed
    csm_green-flag-with-harp_b74693c80e.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    Would any party in the south actively campaign for a no vote in a unity referendum?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 105 ✭✭Wilhelm III


    Would any party in the south actively campaign for a no vote in a unity referendum?
    I wouldn't think so... MAYBE* Fianna Fáil and / or Fine Gael – but I'd be surprised if any of the other parties campaigned for a No vote.

    *Obviously being sarcastic, but still - you could almost believe it...


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,162 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN



    As for the flag, the present one seems fine to me, but if a change it needed

    So you think 750,000 protestants in the North will accept losing the union flag for the Irish tricolour, with no problem?

    Good luck with that.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    I don't disagree - I just have a feeling a lot of our friends in the North would have a serious aversion to the Tricolour, I fear they don't even SEE the colour orange on there, in theory you couldn't get a more appropriate flag - in reality, I fear that is viewed in some quarters as a symbol of the enemy. Ultimately - to me, speaking personally - a unified Republic of Ireland is more important than the flag which will represent it, as much as I love dearly our flag.

    BUT HEY! I like to keep an open mind! It might be the case that a REAL and public discussion on this topic, when the time comes - might indeed change minds, and win hearts - with regards to the already, simplistically profound symbolism of the Irish flag, the flag might not need changing at all. Whatever the case is - we will want to make sure those joining us WANT to join us, that they WANT to be a part of the country - that they WANT a seat at the table - otherwise, how will it ever succeed? The path to peace is paved in compromise, understanding, respect for each other, trust and goodwill from all involved - and if that means a new flag, one that we can all agree on, and get behind - then as far as I am concerned – so be it.

    Oh – and Shamrock!? Come on!?!? The Shamrock would be a quality flag!
    NIMAN wrote: »
    So you think 750,000 protestants in the North will accept losing the union flag for the Irish tricolour, with no problem?

    Good luck with that.


    Why should there be a problem? The symbology of the flag is fine and the majority of people will have voted to abolish NI at that point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    Why should there be a problem? The symbology of the flag is fine and the majority of people will have voted to abolish NI at that point.

    Certain groups literally burn it every year, they are not going to accept it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Certain groups literally burn it every year, they are not going to accept it.

    My business idea is to buy all the old tricolours and sell them on 11 July.


  • Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    My business idea is to buy all the old tricolours and sell them on 11 July.

    You’d regularly see small shops up there advertising tricolours for burning around that time of year.
    It’s not just a certain element either. Unionists young and old, from school kids to housewives to doctors foam at the mouth in delight at around that bonfire every year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭GrumpyMe


    Amirani wrote: »
    ...How would people feel about having an official holiday on the 12th of July and Orange bands marching down O'Connell Street?...
    As long as they have to march home by the traditional route(s) M1/M2/M3...:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 67,145 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    GrumpyMe wrote: »
    As long as they have to march home by the traditional route(s) M1/M2/M3...:D

    I don't get the 'problem' people make of this aspect. As long as nobody is allowed to antaginise, triumphalise or promote hate and bigotry, what odds who marches down O'Connell Street?
    Like the St. Patrick's Day parade it will only be of interest to those celebrating the event.


  • Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't get the 'problem' people make of this aspect. As long as nobody is allowed to antaginise, triumphalise or promote hate and bigotry, what odds who marches down O'Connell Street?
    Like the St. Patrick's Day parade it will only be of interest to those celebrating the event.

    Because it has no place in Ireland and it would be a regression to go back to it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,983 ✭✭✭bilbot79


    I know it's a little bit 'ethnic cleansy' but I reckon if the Irish government sponsored every unionist who renounced Irish/Northern Irish citizenship say 25k to help with a deposit on a house in the UK everyone would be a winner.


  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Because it has no place in Ireland and it would be a regression to go back to it.

    If a portion of the population of Ireland wish to mark their history & culture or whatever, then there should be No issue.
    When you see some of the groups that match down I Connell at on any normal Saturday, I would much prefer to see an organised orange order march!


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  • Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    If a portion of the population of Ireland wish to mark their history & culture or whatever, then there should be No issue.
    When you see some of the groups that match down I Connell at on any normal Saturday, I would much prefer to see an organised orange order march!

    They’re not a portion of the population of Ireland though and hopefully never will be.

    I’d still be fairly confident that the Irish will see sense when the truth comes out in an actual referendum, though we do need some brave party to step up and do what’s best in running a proper No campaign.


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