Ireland u20 6 nations and world championship 2021

bayern · 12-02-2021 10:45am

OneLungDavy wrote: »

Quinlan was never a monster.

John Madigan is another example. Although it was Rassie who got rid of him so we can't really blame the Irish system for that.

I agree we seem to have a, sometimes, strange selection policy regarding big lads. If your naturally big, your in the tight-five. Two years was wasted on Gavin Coombes trying to play him at lock. If Billy Vunipola was Irish he'd be a tighthead prop.

Coombes played backrow all the way up.. if 2 years was wasted it was by Munster coaches. JVG etc.

Personally I don't think Coombes was ready to play when he was 20/21.

Madigan couldn't stay healthy.

Niallof9 · 12-02-2021 10:46am

OneLungDavy wrote: »

Quinlan was never a monster.

John Madigan is another example. Although it was Rassie who got rid of him so we can't really blame the Irish system for that.

I agree we seem to have a, sometimes, strange selection policy regarding big lads. If your naturally big, your in the tight-five. Two years was wasted on Gavin Coombes trying to play him at lock. If Billy Vunipola was Irish he'd be a tighthead prop.

The centre Dave QUinlan.

The skill levels of our under 20s are noticeably improved. Its as clear as day. My argument would be that is at the expense of reminding ourselves that size still plays a huge part in the game.

Was Coombes played there for 2 years? Jesus.

Yeah you get it thats what i'm saying. Its nearly a given. Vunipola would be in the front rowm or considered lazy and slow and wouldn't be in the running at 8. You can see this with Okeke, people already saying the same thing. You can;t be all things. You are either a huge carrier, a rucking and tackling monster or a link guy. Name one player who does it all.
While nowhere near the carrying levels, i remember being told by an Irish under 21 selector that at 6,2 and 20 stone i was too slow to be playing number 8 desp[ite getting a shedload of carries and trys at under 20 level. Where should i play he said; tighthead prop. I mean a young Cian Healy played at 12 against us years ago. Was prop the position he was born to play. bear in mind his first few tries for Leinster.

I think at this age, positions need to be carefully considered.

NO point trying to shoehorn Kendellan. Although Stander should be his role model.

We need to change this mindset imo. But i think its a case of the IRFU believing their own hype and thinking their BIlly Bean reincarnated.

OneLungDavy · 12-02-2021 10:50am

bayern wrote: »

Coombes played backrow all the way up.. if 2 years was wasted it was by Munster coaches. JVG etc.

Personally I don't think Coombes was ready to play when he was 20/21.

Madigan couldn't stay healthy.

He played lock a lot last year. He rarely started but when he came on, often it was at lock, sometimes the back row. He always looked a natural 6/8 to me, Wycherly too.

bayern · 12-02-2021 10:57am

OneLungDavy wrote: »

He played lock a lot last year. He rarely started but when he came on, often it was at lock, sometimes the back row. He always looked a natural 6/8 to me, Wycherly too.

that's on JVG.

bayern · 12-02-2021 10:59am

Niallof9 wrote: »

The centre Dave QUinlan.

The skill levels of our under 20s are noticeably improved. Its as clear as day. My argument would be that is at the expense of reminding ourselves that size still plays a huge part in the game.

Was Coombes played there for 2 years? Jesus.

Yeah you get it thats what i'm saying. Its nearly a given. Vunipola would be in the front rowm or considered lazy and slow and wouldn't be in the running at 8. You can see this with Okeke, people already saying the same thing. You can;t be all things. You are either a huge carrier, a rucking and tackling monster or a link guy. Name one player who does it all.
While nowhere near the carrying levels, i remember being told by an Irish under 21 selector that at 6,2 and 20 stone i was too slow to be playing number 8 desp[ite getting a shedload of carries and trys at under 20 level. Where should i play he said; tighthead prop. I mean a young Cian Healy played at 12 against us years ago. Was prop the position he was born to play. bear in mind his first few tries for Leinster.

I think at this age, positions need to be carefully considered.

NO point trying to shoehorn Kendellan. Although Stander should be his role model.

We need to change this mindset imo. But i think its a case of the IRFU believing their own hype and thinking their BIlly Bean reincarnated.

You can't just do one thing.. Okeke is a carrier but if he doesn't at least do the other things required of a backrow to a decent professional level then he can't be given a pass. Bonkers to be comparing Okeke to Billy Vunipola.

Of course Cian Healy was born to be a prop look at him FFS.

Sounds like you seem to think you'd have made it as a pro but for those darn coaches. Maybe you would have if you had gotten fit or moved to TH Prop like suggested.

Niallof9 · 12-02-2021 11:06am

bayern wrote: »

You can't just do one thing.. Okeke is a carrier but if he doesn't at least do the other things required of a backrow to a decent professional level then he can't be given a pass. Bonkers to be comparing Okeke to Billy Vunipola.

Of course Cian Healy was born to be a prop look at him FFS.

Sounds like you seem to think you'd have made it as a pro but for those darn coaches. Maybe you would have if you had gotten fit or moved to TH Prop like suggested.

Will you stop, nobody is comparing anybody. The viewpoint on Okeke is that he's too lazy etc doesn't work hard enough. I'd hazard a guess the same match reports at age 19 would say similar things about Billy. But he's a monster in the carry so thats what he's picked for. I don't know how good Okeke is, maybe somebody could fill me in seeing hes in the under 20 training squad. It seems like he's a carrier. my main point is that Billy wouldn't be playing 8 for Ireland. as another poster suggested he'd be a tighthead prop. do you get that?

No need for your aggressive come backs on such a nothing topic.

You clearly fail to see my point of view.

And no i wouldn't have made it as a pro in the slightest for the things you point out. Nobody is arguing core functions aren't hugely important. Rucking being probably the core for a forward. I was lazy in the ruck and had nowhere near the mentality to be even consistently AIL.

Cian Healy is and was one of our best ever looseheads ever. Thats not really my point.

Also this is also within the context of our limited options in four teams. We let alot of players through the net or judge them harshly thus losing their best years. Copeland being a recent example. Shares all the faults you point out. But he was an athletic freak. Wasn't even selected for Leinster. Conroy discarded to sevens. Hugh Hogan is another i can think of. Theres probably hundreds of others.

to stay on the under 20 topic, any viewpoints on D Okeke?

UAEguy2020 · 12-02-2021 11:10am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Speaking of Munster youth prospects, what are the chances of Okeke making it. He seems like a big boy.

I agree 6,1 does seem rather small for an 8. He's an excellent prospect though.

Personally i fear we try to box too smart in this country. We'll jettison larger lads as too obvious. I remain convinced a Victor Costelloe or even a Vunipola type wouldn't be looked at anymore.

You can see this happening to Sean French as well. We seem more ready to back the smaller guy with dog in him and consistency then anything.

Eventually our lack of size will kill us, if it hasn't already. We just aren't good enough or have the numbers to back a NZ type policy of smaller bodies.

Or is it truly a lack of real monsters coming through? Are there no more Des Dillons (as crap as he turned out), Bob Caseys, Damien Brownes, Costelloes anymore?

The lack of size isn’t the issue, it’s being soft that’s the issue. We could have 15 Billy Vunipola’s playing for us and it wouldn’t matter.

bayern · 12-02-2021 11:30am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Will you stop, nobody is comparing anybody. The viewpoint on Okeke is that he's too lazy etc doesn't work hard enough. I'd hazard a guess the same match reports at age 19 would say similar things about Billy. But he's a monster in the carry so thats what he's picked for. I don't know how good Okeke is, maybe somebody could fill me in seeing hes in the under 20 training squad. It seems like he's a carrier. my main point is that Billy wouldn't be playing 8 for Ireland. as another poster suggested he'd be a tighthead prop. do you get that?

No need for your aggressive come backs on such a nothing topic.

You clearly fail to see my point of view.

And no i wouldn't have made it as a pro in the slightest for the things you point out. Nobody is arguing core functions aren't hugely important. Rucking being probably the core for a forward. I was lazy in the ruck and had nowhere near the mentality to be even consistently AIL.

Cian Healy is and was one of our best ever looseheads ever. Thats not really my point.

Also this is also within the context of our limited options in four teams. We let alot of players through the net or judge them harshly thus losing their best years.

to stay on the under 20 topic, any viewpoints on D Okeke?

You can say that Billy Vunipola would be playing TH Prop and not 8 if he came through the irish system but there is simply no proof that its true. Okeke is a big carrier but raw in the other aspects of backrow play.. yet he is still playing backrow and hasn't been moved to front row.

bayern · 12-02-2021 11:32am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Will you stop, nobody is comparing anybody. The viewpoint on Okeke is that he's too lazy etc doesn't work hard enough. I'd hazard a guess the same match reports at age 19 would say similar things about Billy. But he's a monster in the carry so thats what he's picked for. I don't know how good Okeke is, maybe somebody could fill me in seeing hes in the under 20 training squad. It seems like he's a carrier. my main point is that Billy wouldn't be playing 8 for Ireland. as another poster suggested he'd be a tighthead prop. do you get that?

No need for your aggressive come backs on such a nothing topic.

You clearly fail to see my point of view.

And no i wouldn't have made it as a pro in the slightest for the things you point out. Nobody is arguing core functions aren't hugely important. Rucking being probably the core for a forward. I was lazy in the ruck and had nowhere near the mentality to be even consistently AIL.

Cian Healy is and was one of our best ever looseheads ever. Thats not really my point.

Also this is also within the context of our limited options in four teams. We let alot of players through the net or judge them harshly thus losing their best years. Copeland being a recent example. Shares all the faults you point out. But he was an athletic freak. Wasn't even selected for Leinster. Conroy discarded to sevens. Hugh Hogan is another i can think of. Theres probably hundreds of others.

to stay on the under 20 topic, any viewpoints on D Okeke?

Copeland said himself he wasn't ready for pro rugby when he was involved with Leinster, He went on then to be discarded by two other provinces and is now playing at pro D2 level.. he was given plenty of chances but just wasn't good enough consistently enough.

Niallof9 · 12-02-2021 11:34am

bayern wrote: »

You can say that Billy Vunipola would be playing TH Prop and not 8 if he came through the irish system but there is simply no proof that its true. Okeke is a big carrier but raw in the other aspects of backrow play.. yet he is still playing backrow and hasn't been moved to front row.

Of course i have no proof of a hypothetical. Its just a theory lets say. And either the larger lads i mentioned weren't good enough or they fell into the same trap as "obviously" too big. I think its the latter. And part of my problem is that the narrative would be..ah shure we don't have any big lads...ignoring your Costelloes, Dave Quinlans, Brownes, Caseys and god knows how many more. The counter would be somebody like Ahern, but already people say he's "raw" and there's an argument that should he even be a second row?

And Okeke seems a few stone lighter than Billy thus its unlikely he'd ever be a TH. I'd imagine Billy did have conversations at some point. I mean you can still see the eight in Furlong.

Anyway lets leave it you don't seem to get my pov at all.

OneLungDavy · 12-02-2021 11:38am

I don't think Copeland was ever that good.
Regarding Okeke, he was schooling lads as a youngster because he was so much more physically mature. I watched him for the Munster A side and he didn't stand out size-wise. My instinct tells me he will struggle at senior level, I don't think he'll make the Irish u20 squad this year. I'd like to be proven wrong.

Niallof9 · 12-02-2021 11:40am

bayern wrote: »

Copeland said himself he wasn't ready for pro rugby when he was involved with Leinster, He went on then to be discarded by two other provinces and is now playing at pro D2 level.. he was given plenty of chances but just wasn't good enough consistently enough.

Having played with him and done the analysis for Mary's trust me he was in terms of raw ability. Of course thats not enough. But i'm using him as an example. Hugh Hogan was a similar type of player once got to the fringes of Leinster, and is now a coach with Leinster. His ability was nowhere near Copelands, but his mentality was light years ahead. I'd reckon your Hogans have a far better chance now. Thats really my point. And i don't think we're good enough, or big enough to be discarding players based on details. We can afford to discard one of the fastest rugby players in the World on tackling, we can afford to discard an athletic freak like Copeland, a natural skillful talent like Zebo. I think we're in danger. I'd rather watch paint dry than watch a team of Van der Fliers.

Again i didn't say he was good enough. He wasn't even picked up by any academy. Peter Smyth would tell you or anybody he knew that Copeland was an athletic freak, like his older brother. Again my point isn't that he was good enough. Its that he didn't get a **** till his mid 20's. Copeland's game was about athletic carrying and pace. I think part of the issue here is theres only four teams meaning naturally players will fall through the crack. Its a tightening on quality but means late developers etc don't get a real shot.

Yeah i mean is he even that big, its hard to tell. 6,2 maybe?

Do we even have any monsters coming through at under 20 level or below?

OneLungDavy · 12-02-2021 11:40am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Of course i have no proof of a hypothetical. Its just a theory lets say. And either the larger lads i mentioned weren't good enough or they fell into the same trap as "obviously" too big. I think its the latter. And part of my problem is that the narrative would be..ah shure we don't have any big lads...ignoring your Costelloes, Dave Quinlans, Brownes, Caseys and god knows how many more. The counter would be somebody like Ahern, but already people say he's "raw" and there's an argument that should he even be a second row?

And Okeke seems a few stone lighter than Billy thus its unlikely he'd ever be a TH. I'd imagine Billy did have conversations at some point. I mean you can still see the eight in Furlong.

Anyway lets leave it you don't seem to get my pov at all.

I don't know what we were thinking playing Tony Buckley at TH. He should have shed 10 - 15 kilos and played 8.

arsebiscuits1 · 12-02-2021 11:42am

OneLungDavy wrote: »

I don't know what we were thinking playing Tony Buckley at TH. He should have shed 10 - 15 kilos and played 8.

Desperation.

I'm pretty sure back in those days I was the 4th choice Tighthead in Ireland despite being 15 and a scrumhalf

bayern · 12-02-2021 11:42am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Of course i have no proof of a hypothetical. Its just a theory lets say. And either the larger lads i mentioned weren't good enough or they fell into the same trap as "obviously" too big. I think its the latter. And part of my problem is that the narrative would be..ah shure we don't have any big lads...ignoring your Costelloes, Dave Quinlans, Brownes, Caseys and god knows how many more.

And Okeke seems a few stone lighter than Billy thus its unlikely he'd ever be a TH. I'd imagine Billy did have conversations at some point. I mean you can still see the eight in Furlong.

and? is that a bad thing?

the players you mentioned all came through 20+ years ago.. any and all "huge lads" or "obviously too big" who come through the system are given every chance to make it as professional rugby players.. but if you don't have the skillset to be a good pro or you simple aren't good enough you aren't just going to be given a contract because you are big.

bayern · 12-02-2021 11:43am

OneLungDavy wrote: »

I don't think Copeland was ever that good.
Regarding Okeke, he was schooling lads as a youngster because he was so much more physically mature. I watched him for the Munster A side and he didn't stand out size-wise. My instinct tells me he will struggle at senior level, I don't think he'll make the Irish u20 squad this year. I'd like to be proven wrong.

he made the extended squad but doubtful he will be a starting player, bar injury.

OneLungDavy · 12-02-2021 11:44am

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Desperation.

I'm pretty sure back in those days I was the 4th choice Tighthead in Ireland despite being 15 and a scrumhalf

:pac: True that. I often forget how little depth we had back then.

Niallof9 · 12-02-2021 11:47am

OneLungDavy wrote: »

I don't know what we were thinking playing Tony Buckley at TH. He should have shed 10 - 15 kilos and played 8.

Ah jesus how could i forget Mushy!

yeah thats what i mean. He was a second row in Newbridge. Far too soft on too many occasions for such a giagantic man.

But he'd literally be playing and you'd have people say "we don't produce big men"

Costelloe scored something like 13 tries in 13 games at SCT level, shotputted for Ireland in 92 yet ended with what 39 caps?

I dunno its a hard theory to prove.

Bringing it back to 20s...do Mushys exist?

Niallof9 · 12-02-2021 11:51am

bayern wrote: »

and? is that a bad thing?

the players you mentioned all came through 20+ years ago.. any and all "huge lads" or "obviously too big" who come through the system are given every chance to make it as professional rugby players.. but if you don't have the skillset to be a good pro or you simple aren't good enough you aren't just going to be given a contract because you are big.

did i say anything of the sort? Its a good thing. My point is i'm sure there was conversations with Billy like there was with Furlong. Many a schools number 8 have turned to TH prop.

And no i don't think they are given every chance to make it at all. Without having a full roster of underage players and their sizes i can;t give you recent examples unfortunately. The lack of large players would make me think its part of an overall trend. Smaller body shapes for better athletic contribution. Similar in NZ a change in mindset. Seen by the likes of axing your Julian Saveas etc.

You seem to have a reply to everything even though you can't engage certain points, so i'm leaving it there.

bayern · 12-02-2021 11:51am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Do we even have any monsters coming through at under 20 level or below?

At what position? Lock/Backrow?

Joe McCarthy(U20)
Alex Soroka(U20)
Luke Dunleavy(U19)
Paul Deeny(U19)
Diarmuid Mangan(U18)

bayern · 12-02-2021 11:54am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Ah jesus how could i forget Mushy!

yeah thats what i mean. He was a second row in Newbridge. Far too soft on too many occasions for such a giagantic man.

But he'd literally be playing and you'd have people say "we don't produce big men"

Costelloe scored something like 13 tries in 13 games at SCT level, shotputted for Ireland in 92 yet ended with what 39 caps?

I dunno its a hard theory to prove.

Bringing it back to 20s...do Mushys exist?

Luke Rigney & Ryan McMahon were too huge TH Props who came through system recently in the Buckley mold. Neither were good enough though.

Rory McGuire being another currently in system and seemingly highly rated.

Niallof9 · 12-02-2021 11:55am

tall players but none of them strike me as physical monsters. again probably examples of conditioning, to adapt to a style. One unfortunately that will see us regularly beaten at international level.

Again its not necessarily that they aren't there its that they are conforming to demands.

At under 20 level our improved skills mean its not as big a problem as it was. At senior level, however, i think it becomes an issue.

bayern · 12-02-2021 11:58am

Niallof9 wrote: »

tall players but none of them strike me as physical monsters. again probably examples of conditioning, to adapt to a style. One unfortunately that will see us regularly beaten at international level.

Again its not necessarily that they aren't there its that they are conforming to demands.

At under 20 level our improved skills mean its not as big a problem as it was. At senior level, however, i think it becomes an issue.

Mangan is a monster of kid for 17/18. Come off it.

You are seeing what you want to see.

Niallof9 · 12-02-2021 12:02pm

Alex Soroka looks the real deal, so its not an issue. Mangan yeah is a big lad, i'll admit i hadn't seen him before.

The opposite is also true like. Scott Penny is a little beast.

Look i'm not getting hung up on size. For me its just part of a trend which i think will be damaging long term for Irish rugby. Its a wall we're coming up against in Saracens and England, regularly.

At under 20's its not been an issue. Our skill level is driving us.

cgq300 · 12-02-2021 12:08pm

Illo and Griffin(leinster) two big tight heads in that under 20s training squads. Both about 6ft 2 and I'd say Illo 118kg Griffin 123kg George saunderson, (ulster) big lad aswell in Loosehead. And obviously Soroka as mentioned above

UAEguy2020 · 12-02-2021 12:09pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

tall players but none of them strike me as physical monsters. again probably examples of conditioning, to adapt to a style. One unfortunately that will see us regularly beaten at international level.

Again its not necessarily that they aren't there its that they are conforming to demands.

At under 20 level our improved skills mean its not as big a problem as it was. At senior level, however, i think it becomes an issue.

McCarthy is pretty massive.

Soroka is also pretty massive but I think it’s really letting him down from an aerobic point of view (looked absolutely gassed after 20 minutes vs Ulster A) needs to work on that bit.

OneLungDavy · 12-02-2021 12:14pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

McCarthy is pretty massive.

Soroka is also pretty massive but I think it’s really letting him down from an aerobic point of view (looked absolutely gassed after 20 minutes vs Ulster A) needs to work on that bit.

I don't see it with Soroka. He's very tall for a back-row(6"6'?) but his muscle mass hasn't matured yet. He will grow obviously but I can't see him going beyond 115kg.

bayern · 12-02-2021 12:15pm

OneLungDavy wrote: »

I don't see it with Soroka. He's very tall for a back-row(6"6'?) but his muscle mass hasn't matured yet. He will grow obviously but I can't see him going beyond 115kg.

a 6'6, 115kg backrow is huge by irish standards.

Soroka's future is a big mean blindside IMO.

bayern · 12-02-2021 12:18pm

cgq300 wrote: »

Illo and Griffin(leinster) two big tight heads in that under 20s training squads. Both about 6ft 2 and I'd say Illo 118kg Griffin 123kg George saunderson, (ulster) big lad aswell in Loosehead. And obviously Soroka as mentioned above

didn't even consider this years props... Shane Connolly is a big powerful tighthead too..

the real question is where are the big farmers from Munster gone?

FrannoFan · 12-02-2021 1:44pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Having played with him and done the analysis for Mary's trust me he was in terms of raw ability. Of course thats not enough. But i'm using him as an example. Hugh Hogan was a similar type of player once got to the fringes of Leinster, and is now a coach with Leinster. His ability was nowhere near Copelands, but his mentality was light years ahead. I'd reckon your Hogans have a far better chance now. Thats really my point. And i don't think we're good enough, or big enough to be discarding players based on details. We can afford to discard one of the fastest rugby players in the World on tackling, we can afford to discard an athletic freak like Copeland, a natural skillful talent like Zebo. I think we're in danger. I'd rather watch paint dry than watch a team of Van der Fliers.

Again i didn't say he was good enough. He wasn't even picked up by any academy. Peter Smyth would tell you or anybody he knew that Copeland was an athletic freak, like his older brother. Again my point isn't that he was good enough. Its that he didn't get a **** till his mid 20's. Copeland's game was about athletic carrying and pace. I think part of the issue here is theres only four teams meaning naturally players will fall through the crack. Its a tightening on quality but means late developers etc don't get a real shot.

Yeah i mean is he even that big, its hard to tell. 6,2 maybe?

Do we even have any monsters coming through at under 20 level or below?

is there any evidence of giants being discarded though? like you question would a costello make it. I'm pretty sure he would, phenomenal ball carrier and an olympian, they would have stuck with him the way they stick with adam byrne for so long.

We don't genetically have many physical freaks playing. when we do someone keeps a hold of them. Robb in connacht for example. sometimes its lack of ability to learn and incrementally improve holding them back.

Dubinusa · 12-02-2021 5:59pm

A lot of our big lads just aren't good enough! Just look at the locks from the u20's that weren't good enough! Sean McCarthy, Jack Regan, Donnan. Sean O Connor, Darragh Maloney, Romaine etc. It's incredible that these past 4 years the talent and physicality have improved. Still, we see lads that looked all star caliber in the back rownot make any strides towards a pro career.The talent is improving and the future looks pretty good.

bayern · 14-02-2021 2:03pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

A lot of our big lads just aren't good enough! Just look at the locks from the u20's that weren't good enough! Sean McCarthy, Jack Regan, Donnan. Sean O Connor, Darragh Maloney, Romaine etc. It's incredible that these past 4 years the talent and physicality have improved. Still, we see lads that looked all star caliber in the back rownot make any strides towards a pro career.The talent is improving and the future looks pretty good.

Nearly all of those players you listed were small for their position in pro rugby terms.

realhorrorshow · 14-02-2021 2:59pm

bayern wrote: »

Nearly all of those players you listed were small for their position in pro rugby terms.

Cian Romaine is huge but never made any impact at all while at Connacht unfortunately.

bayern · 14-02-2021 3:04pm

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Cian Romaine is huge but never made any impact at all while at Connacht unfortunately.

6'5, 115kg isn't huge for a lock.

realhorrorshow · 14-02-2021 3:46pm

bayern wrote: »

6'5, 115kg isn't huge for a lock.

Fair, he was listed as 125kg while at Connacht I'm pretty sure, because I remember noticing that he was (allegedly) the same height and weight as Quinn Roux.

Edit: this article had him down as 119kg as a 20 year old which is on the big side for an Irish lock. https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/the-future-is-bright-cian-romaine-first-year-academy-34112970.html

Dubinusa · 14-02-2021 7:01pm

Other lads had unfortunate injury profiles: Claffey is one and Cillian Gallagher is another lad who has been unfortunate.

bayern · 14-02-2021 7:04pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Other lads had unfortunate injury profiles: Claffey is one and Cillian Gallagher is another lad who has been unfortunate.

Injuries isn't what prevented them from having pro careers.

realhorrorshow · 14-02-2021 7:37pm

bayern wrote: »

Injuries isn't what prevented them from having pro careers.

Do tell.. Both were starting u20 locks, Gallagher was captain and a standout. Claffey spent his whole academy contract injured, Gallagher has been pretty much could constantly injured since he was 18.

Niallof9 · 14-02-2021 7:43pm

So ITV said we had the lightest pack in the comp. Do we have an issue here and in the future? Also why has only Kelleher emerged from our recent under 20 teams?

bayern · 14-02-2021 7:44pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

So ITV said we had the lightest pack in the comp. Do we have an issue here and in the future? Also why has only Kelleher emerged from our recent under 20 teams?

Caelan Doris is younger than Kelleher.

Irish rugby is never going to have huge packs simple genetics.

Clegg · 14-02-2021 8:08pm

The pipeline of forwards moving from underage representation, to professional level and then to test rugby has been one of the great successes of Irish rugby in recent years. Connors, Ryan, Porter, Deegan, Doris and Kelleher have all come through in recent years.

And I expect to see Ryan Baird, Dan Sheahan, Tom O'Toole, Gavin Coombes, Thomas Aherne and Josh Wycherley to be capped in the near future.

Scott Penney is the best underage Irish forward I've seen since James Ryan, but he's not guaranteed to be called any time soon more so due to the strength in depth Ireland has at openside. Think he'll make it eventually though.

UAEguy2020 · 14-02-2021 8:11pm

We could make it better if we had a policy where we move on players who don’t add a huge lot to the province (playing wise) and will likely never be good enough for Irish honors, at Munster someone like JJ, R.Scannell, Kleyn for example if we clearly have a young player able to step in.

bayern · 15-02-2021 8:58pm

Rumoured that U20 Shane Connolly headed to Australia to play rugby.

bayern · 16-02-2021 2:34pm

Chris Cosgrave training with Leinster seniors yesterday.

alanb92 · 16-02-2021 6:29pm

Looks like Cosgrave has bulked up a fair bit. Very excited to see how he will fare at senior level.

bayern · 16-02-2021 6:36pm

alanb92 wrote: »

Looks like Cosgrave has bulked up a fair bit. Very excited to see how he will fare at senior level.

He's has plenty hype as is.. most of it based on JCT form.. Ill be interested to see how he performs at u20 level before I get excited about him playing senior for leinster.

alanb92 · 16-02-2021 6:42pm

bayern wrote: »

He's has plenty hype as is.. most of it based on JCT form.. Ill be interested to see how he performs at u20 level before I get excited about him playing senior for leinster.

I thought he showed a lot of class in the last 2 years at senior cup level. He made a few basic errors for the Ireland u18's in that age grade's iteration of the 6 nations, but still looked classy in parts - his talent is unquestionable. Sometimes he was a bit lax in throwing risky passes, look daft when they don't come off but a genius if they do. Irish rugby needs players like that, though (the courage to try a risky play & the ability to pull it off).

I've said it before - and I don't intend for this to spark another debate - but someone with his natural talent should kick on massively now that he is in with Leinster every day, getting better coaching etc.

bayern · 16-02-2021 6:52pm

alanb92 wrote: »

I thought he showed a lot of class in the last 2 years at senior cup level. He made a few basic errors for the Ireland u18's in that age grade's iteration of the 6 nations, but still looked classy in parts - his talent is unquestionable. Sometimes he was a bit lax in throwing risky passes, look daft when they don't come off but a genius if they do. Irish rugby needs players like that, though (the courage to try a risky play & the ability to pull it off).

I've said it before - and I don't intend for this to spark another debate - but someone with his natural talent should kick on massively now that he is in with Leinster every day, getting better coaching etc.

I thought he under performed in 6th year in a hyped Michaels side. He doesn't have elite measurables so will need to maximise what he does have. It will be interesting to see how he gets on for 20s.

alanb92 · 16-02-2021 7:01pm

bayern wrote: »

I thought he under performed in 6th year in a hyped Michaels side. He doesn't have elite measurables so will need to maximise what he does have. It will be interesting to see how he gets on for 20s.

I re-watched the Newbridge - Michaels match back recently and thought he was very impressive. When players are hyped to the extent he has been it is easy to expect too much, but in spite of his pack being second best, I thought he looked a class above for me on a few different aspects. His passing off both sides is excellent. His kicking, both out of hand and off the tee, is extremely impressive. He is deceptively quick too and picks very good lines. So for me (without trying to fan the hype flames) he has a lot of great qualities to be a top fullback. Time will tell.

bayern · 16-02-2021 9:01pm

alanb92 wrote: »

I re-watched the Newbridge - Michaels match back recently and thought he was very impressive. When players are hyped to the extent he has been it is easy to expect too much, but in spite of his pack being second best, I thought he looked a class above for me on a few different aspects. His passing off both sides is excellent. His kicking, both out of hand and off the tee, is extremely impressive. He is deceptively quick too and picks very good lines. So for me (without trying to fan the hype flames) he has a lot of great qualities to be a top fullback. Time will tell.

well given his reputation and how some people perceive his potential he should look a class above. His place kicking will be irrelevant to his professional career and deceptively quick doesn't really do it at the top level for a back three player.

Other than that a very good passing and kicking game, you'd hope would be basics for an academy back especially if the player is undersized for his position.

Right now i'd rate Andrew Smith and Jack Kelly as better prospects coming out of school, and Cosgrave needs a big u20 season in order to live up to some of the unrealistic hype he got when he was around 16. He could turn out to be a very good player, but it's far from a certainty despite his obvious talents and ability.

A smaller version of Jimmy O'Brien could be his potential future, a quality rugby player that lacks the elite athleticism to be a top level international.

Ireland u20 6 nations and world championship 2021

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