Ireland u20 6 nations and world championship 2021

bayern

OneLungDavy wrote: »

Quinlan was never a monster.

John Madigan is another example. Although it was Rassie who got rid of him so we can't really blame the Irish system for that.


I agree we seem to have a, sometimes, strange selection policy regarding big lads. If your naturally big, your in the tight-five. Two years was wasted on Gavin Coombes trying to play him at lock. If Billy Vunipola was Irish he'd be a tighthead prop.

Coombes played backrow all the way up.. if 2 years was wasted it was by Munster coaches. JVG etc.

Personally I don't think Coombes was ready to play when he was 20/21.

Madigan couldn't stay healthy.

Niallof9

OneLungDavy wrote: »

Quinlan was never a monster.

John Madigan is another example. Although it was Rassie who got rid of him so we can't really blame the Irish system for that.


I agree we seem to have a, sometimes, strange selection policy regarding big lads. If your naturally big, your in the tight-five. Two years was wasted on Gavin Coombes trying to play him at lock. If Billy Vunipola was Irish he'd be a tighthead prop.

The centre Dave QUinlan.

The skill levels of our under 20s are noticeably improved. Its as clear as day. My argument would be that is at the expense of reminding ourselves that size still plays a huge part in the game.

Was Coombes played there for 2 years? Jesus.

Yeah you get it thats what i'm saying. Its nearly a given. Vunipola would be in the front rowm or considered lazy and slow and wouldn't be in the running at 8. You can see this with Okeke, people already saying the same thing. You can;t be all things. You are either a huge carrier, a rucking and tackling monster or a link guy. Name one player who does it all.
While nowhere near the carrying levels, i remember being told by an Irish under 21 selector that at 6,2 and 20 stone i was too slow to be playing number 8 desp[ite getting a shedload of carries and trys at under 20 level. Where should i play he said; tighthead prop. I mean a young Cian Healy played at 12 against us years ago. Was prop the position he was born to play. bear in mind his first few tries for Leinster.

I think at this age, positions need to be carefully considered.

NO point trying to shoehorn Kendellan. Although Stander should be his role model.

We need to change this mindset imo. But i think its a case of the IRFU believing their own hype and thinking their BIlly Bean reincarnated.

OneLungDavy

bayern wrote: »

Coombes played backrow all the way up.. if 2 years was wasted it was by Munster coaches. JVG etc.

Personally I don't think Coombes was ready to play when he was 20/21.

Madigan couldn't stay healthy.

He played lock a lot last year. He rarely started but when he came on, often it was at lock, sometimes the back row. He always looked a natural 6/8 to me, Wycherly too.

bayern

OneLungDavy wrote: »

He played lock a lot last year. He rarely started but when he came on, often it was at lock, sometimes the back row. He always looked a natural 6/8 to me, Wycherly too.

that's on JVG.

bayern

Niallof9 wrote: »

The centre Dave QUinlan.

The skill levels of our under 20s are noticeably improved. Its as clear as day. My argument would be that is at the expense of reminding ourselves that size still plays a huge part in the game.

Was Coombes played there for 2 years? Jesus.

Yeah you get it thats what i'm saying. Its nearly a given. Vunipola would be in the front rowm or considered lazy and slow and wouldn't be in the running at 8. You can see this with Okeke, people already saying the same thing. You can;t be all things. You are either a huge carrier, a rucking and tackling monster or a link guy. Name one player who does it all.
While nowhere near the carrying levels, i remember being told by an Irish under 21 selector that at 6,2 and 20 stone i was too slow to be playing number 8 desp[ite getting a shedload of carries and trys at under 20 level. Where should i play he said; tighthead prop. I mean a young Cian Healy played at 12 against us years ago. Was prop the position he was born to play. bear in mind his first few tries for Leinster.

I think at this age, positions need to be carefully considered.

NO point trying to shoehorn Kendellan. Although Stander should be his role model.

We need to change this mindset imo. But i think its a case of the IRFU believing their own hype and thinking their BIlly Bean reincarnated.

You can't just do one thing.. Okeke is a carrier but if he doesn't at least do the other things required of a backrow to a decent professional level then he can't be given a pass. Bonkers to be comparing Okeke to Billy Vunipola.

Of course Cian Healy was born to be a prop look at him FFS.

Sounds like you seem to think you'd have made it as a pro but for those darn coaches. Maybe you would have if you had gotten fit or moved to TH Prop like suggested.

Niallof9

bayern wrote: »

You can't just do one thing.. Okeke is a carrier but if he doesn't at least do the other things required of a backrow to a decent professional level then he can't be given a pass. Bonkers to be comparing Okeke to Billy Vunipola.

Of course Cian Healy was born to be a prop look at him FFS.

Sounds like you seem to think you'd have made it as a pro but for those darn coaches. Maybe you would have if you had gotten fit or moved to TH Prop like suggested.

Will you stop, nobody is comparing anybody. The viewpoint on Okeke is that he's too lazy etc doesn't work hard enough. I'd hazard a guess the same match reports at age 19 would say similar things about Billy. But he's a monster in the carry so thats what he's picked for. I don't know how good Okeke is, maybe somebody could fill me in seeing hes in the under 20 training squad. It seems like he's a carrier. my main point is that Billy wouldn't be playing 8 for Ireland. as another poster suggested he'd be a tighthead prop. do you get that?

No need for your aggressive come backs on such a nothing topic.

You clearly fail to see my point of view.

And no i wouldn't have made it as a pro in the slightest for the things you point out. Nobody is arguing core functions aren't hugely important. Rucking being probably the core for a forward. I was lazy in the ruck and had nowhere near the mentality to be even consistently AIL.

Cian Healy is and was one of our best ever looseheads ever. Thats not really my point.

Also this is also within the context of our limited options in four teams. We let alot of players through the net or judge them harshly thus losing their best years. Copeland being a recent example. Shares all the faults you point out. But he was an athletic freak. Wasn't even selected for Leinster. Conroy discarded to sevens. Hugh Hogan is another i can think of. Theres probably hundreds of others.

to stay on the under 20 topic, any viewpoints on D Okeke?

UAEguy2020

Niallof9 wrote: »

Speaking of Munster youth prospects, what are the chances of Okeke making it. He seems like a big boy.

I agree 6,1 does seem rather small for an 8. He's an excellent prospect though.

Personally i fear we try to box too smart in this country. We'll jettison larger lads as too obvious. I remain convinced a Victor Costelloe or even a Vunipola type wouldn't be looked at anymore.

You can see this happening to Sean French as well. We seem more ready to back the smaller guy with dog in him and consistency then anything.

Eventually our lack of size will kill us, if it hasn't already. We just aren't good enough or have the numbers to back a NZ type policy of smaller bodies.

Or is it truly a lack of real monsters coming through? Are there no more Des Dillons (as crap as he turned out), Bob Caseys, Damien Brownes, Costelloes anymore?

The lack of size isn’t the issue, it’s being soft that’s the issue. We could have 15 Billy Vunipola’s playing for us and it wouldn’t matter.

bayern

Niallof9 wrote: »

Will you stop, nobody is comparing anybody. The viewpoint on Okeke is that he's too lazy etc doesn't work hard enough. I'd hazard a guess the same match reports at age 19 would say similar things about Billy. But he's a monster in the carry so thats what he's picked for. I don't know how good Okeke is, maybe somebody could fill me in seeing hes in the under 20 training squad. It seems like he's a carrier. my main point is that Billy wouldn't be playing 8 for Ireland. as another poster suggested he'd be a tighthead prop. do you get that?

No need for your aggressive come backs on such a nothing topic.

You clearly fail to see my point of view.

And no i wouldn't have made it as a pro in the slightest for the things you point out. Nobody is arguing core functions aren't hugely important. Rucking being probably the core for a forward. I was lazy in the ruck and had nowhere near the mentality to be even consistently AIL.

Cian Healy is and was one of our best ever looseheads ever. Thats not really my point.

Also this is also within the context of our limited options in four teams. We let alot of players through the net or judge them harshly thus losing their best years.

to stay on the under 20 topic, any viewpoints on D Okeke?

You can say that Billy Vunipola would be playing TH Prop and not 8 if he came through the irish system but there is simply no proof that its true. Okeke is a big carrier but raw in the other aspects of backrow play.. yet he is still playing backrow and hasn't been moved to front row.

bayern

Niallof9 wrote: »

Will you stop, nobody is comparing anybody. The viewpoint on Okeke is that he's too lazy etc doesn't work hard enough. I'd hazard a guess the same match reports at age 19 would say similar things about Billy. But he's a monster in the carry so thats what he's picked for. I don't know how good Okeke is, maybe somebody could fill me in seeing hes in the under 20 training squad. It seems like he's a carrier. my main point is that Billy wouldn't be playing 8 for Ireland. as another poster suggested he'd be a tighthead prop. do you get that?

No need for your aggressive come backs on such a nothing topic.

You clearly fail to see my point of view.

And no i wouldn't have made it as a pro in the slightest for the things you point out. Nobody is arguing core functions aren't hugely important. Rucking being probably the core for a forward. I was lazy in the ruck and had nowhere near the mentality to be even consistently AIL.

Cian Healy is and was one of our best ever looseheads ever. Thats not really my point.

Also this is also within the context of our limited options in four teams. We let alot of players through the net or judge them harshly thus losing their best years. Copeland being a recent example. Shares all the faults you point out. But he was an athletic freak. Wasn't even selected for Leinster. Conroy discarded to sevens. Hugh Hogan is another i can think of. Theres probably hundreds of others.

to stay on the under 20 topic, any viewpoints on D Okeke?

Copeland said himself he wasn't ready for pro rugby when he was involved with Leinster, He went on then to be discarded by two other provinces and is now playing at pro D2 level.. he was given plenty of chances but just wasn't good enough consistently enough.

Niallof9

bayern wrote: »

You can say that Billy Vunipola would be playing TH Prop and not 8 if he came through the irish system but there is simply no proof that its true. Okeke is a big carrier but raw in the other aspects of backrow play.. yet he is still playing backrow and hasn't been moved to front row.

Of course i have no proof of a hypothetical. Its just a theory lets say. And either the larger lads i mentioned weren't good enough or they fell into the same trap as "obviously" too big. I think its the latter. And part of my problem is that the narrative would be..ah shure we don't have any big lads...ignoring your Costelloes, Dave Quinlans, Brownes, Caseys and god knows how many more. The counter would be somebody like Ahern, but already people say he's "raw" and there's an argument that should he even be a second row?

And Okeke seems a few stone lighter than Billy thus its unlikely he'd ever be a TH. I'd imagine Billy did have conversations at some point. I mean you can still see the eight in Furlong.

Anyway lets leave it you don't seem to get my pov at all.

OneLungDavy

I don't think Copeland was ever that good.
Regarding Okeke, he was schooling lads as a youngster because he was so much more physically mature. I watched him for the Munster A side and he didn't stand out size-wise. My instinct tells me he will struggle at senior level, I don't think he'll make the Irish u20 squad this year. I'd like to be proven wrong.

Niallof9

bayern wrote: »

Copeland said himself he wasn't ready for pro rugby when he was involved with Leinster, He went on then to be discarded by two other provinces and is now playing at pro D2 level.. he was given plenty of chances but just wasn't good enough consistently enough.

Having played with him and done the analysis for Mary's trust me he was in terms of raw ability. Of course thats not enough. But i'm using him as an example. Hugh Hogan was a similar type of player once got to the fringes of Leinster, and is now a coach with Leinster. His ability was nowhere near Copelands, but his mentality was light years ahead. I'd reckon your Hogans have a far better chance now. Thats really my point. And i don't think we're good enough, or big enough to be discarding players based on details. We can afford to discard one of the fastest rugby players in the World on tackling, we can afford to discard an athletic freak like Copeland, a natural skillful talent like Zebo. I think we're in danger. I'd rather watch paint dry than watch a team of Van der Fliers.

Again i didn't say he was good enough. He wasn't even picked up by any academy. Peter Smyth would tell you or anybody he knew that Copeland was an athletic freak, like his older brother. Again my point isn't that he was good enough. Its that he didn't get a **** till his mid 20's. Copeland's game was about athletic carrying and pace. I think part of the issue here is theres only four teams meaning naturally players will fall through the crack. Its a tightening on quality but means late developers etc don't get a real shot.

Yeah i mean is he even that big, its hard to tell. 6,2 maybe?

Do we even have any monsters coming through at under 20 level or below?

OneLungDavy

Niallof9 wrote: »

Of course i have no proof of a hypothetical. Its just a theory lets say. And either the larger lads i mentioned weren't good enough or they fell into the same trap as "obviously" too big. I think its the latter. And part of my problem is that the narrative would be..ah shure we don't have any big lads...ignoring your Costelloes, Dave Quinlans, Brownes, Caseys and god knows how many more. The counter would be somebody like Ahern, but already people say he's "raw" and there's an argument that should he even be a second row?

And Okeke seems a few stone lighter than Billy thus its unlikely he'd ever be a TH. I'd imagine Billy did have conversations at some point. I mean you can still see the eight in Furlong.

Anyway lets leave it you don't seem to get my pov at all.

I don't know what we were thinking playing Tony Buckley at TH. He should have shed 10 - 15 kilos and played 8.

arsebiscuits1

OneLungDavy wrote: »

I don't know what we were thinking playing Tony Buckley at TH. He should have shed 10 - 15 kilos and played 8.

Desperation.

I'm pretty sure back in those days I was the 4th choice Tighthead in Ireland despite being 15 and a scrumhalf

bayern

Niallof9 wrote: »

Of course i have no proof of a hypothetical. Its just a theory lets say. And either the larger lads i mentioned weren't good enough or they fell into the same trap as "obviously" too big. I think its the latter. And part of my problem is that the narrative would be..ah shure we don't have any big lads...ignoring your Costelloes, Dave Quinlans, Brownes, Caseys and god knows how many more.

And Okeke seems a few stone lighter than Billy thus its unlikely he'd ever be a TH. I'd imagine Billy did have conversations at some point. I mean you can still see the eight in Furlong.

and? is that a bad thing?

the players you mentioned all came through 20+ years ago.. any and all "huge lads" or "obviously too big" who come through the system are given every chance to make it as professional rugby players.. but if you don't have the skillset to be a good pro or you simple aren't good enough you aren't just going to be given a contract because you are big.

bayern

OneLungDavy wrote: »

I don't think Copeland was ever that good.
Regarding Okeke, he was schooling lads as a youngster because he was so much more physically mature. I watched him for the Munster A side and he didn't stand out size-wise. My instinct tells me he will struggle at senior level, I don't think he'll make the Irish u20 squad this year. I'd like to be proven wrong.

he made the extended squad but doubtful he will be a starting player, bar injury.

OneLungDavy

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Desperation.

I'm pretty sure back in those days I was the 4th choice Tighthead in Ireland despite being 15 and a scrumhalf

:pac: True that. I often forget how little depth we had back then.

Niallof9

OneLungDavy wrote: »

I don't know what we were thinking playing Tony Buckley at TH. He should have shed 10 - 15 kilos and played 8.

Ah jesus how could i forget Mushy!

yeah thats what i mean. He was a second row in Newbridge. Far too soft on too many occasions for such a giagantic man.

But he'd literally be playing and you'd have people say "we don't produce big men"

Costelloe scored something like 13 tries in 13 games at SCT level, shotputted for Ireland in 92 yet ended with what 39 caps?

I dunno its a hard theory to prove.

Bringing it back to 20s...do Mushys exist?

Niallof9

bayern wrote: »

and? is that a bad thing?

the players you mentioned all came through 20+ years ago.. any and all "huge lads" or "obviously too big" who come through the system are given every chance to make it as professional rugby players.. but if you don't have the skillset to be a good pro or you simple aren't good enough you aren't just going to be given a contract because you are big.

did i say anything of the sort? Its a good thing. My point is i'm sure there was conversations with Billy like there was with Furlong. Many a schools number 8 have turned to TH prop.

And no i don't think they are given every chance to make it at all. Without having a full roster of underage players and their sizes i can;t give you recent examples unfortunately. The lack of large players would make me think its part of an overall trend. Smaller body shapes for better athletic contribution. Similar in NZ a change in mindset. Seen by the likes of axing your Julian Saveas etc.

You seem to have a reply to everything even though you can't engage certain points, so i'm leaving it there.

bayern

Niallof9 wrote: »

Do we even have any monsters coming through at under 20 level or below?

At what position? Lock/Backrow?

Joe McCarthy(U20)
Alex Soroka(U20)
Luke Dunleavy(U19)
Paul Deeny(U19)
Diarmuid Mangan(U18)

bayern

Niallof9 wrote: »

Ah jesus how could i forget Mushy!

yeah thats what i mean. He was a second row in Newbridge. Far too soft on too many occasions for such a giagantic man.

But he'd literally be playing and you'd have people say "we don't produce big men"

Costelloe scored something like 13 tries in 13 games at SCT level, shotputted for Ireland in 92 yet ended with what 39 caps?

I dunno its a hard theory to prove.

Bringing it back to 20s...do Mushys exist?

Luke Rigney & Ryan McMahon were too huge TH Props who came through system recently in the Buckley mold. Neither were good enough though.

Rory McGuire being another currently in system and seemingly highly rated.

Niallof9

tall players but none of them strike me as physical monsters. again probably examples of conditioning, to adapt to a style. One unfortunately that will see us regularly beaten at international level.

Again its not necessarily that they aren't there its that they are conforming to demands.

At under 20 level our improved skills mean its not as big a problem as it was. At senior level, however, i think it becomes an issue.

bayern

Niallof9 wrote: »

tall players but none of them strike me as physical monsters. again probably examples of conditioning, to adapt to a style. One unfortunately that will see us regularly beaten at international level.

Again its not necessarily that they aren't there its that they are conforming to demands.

At under 20 level our improved skills mean its not as big a problem as it was. At senior level, however, i think it becomes an issue.

Mangan is a monster of kid for 17/18. Come off it.

You are seeing what you want to see.

Niallof9

Alex Soroka looks the real deal, so its not an issue. Mangan yeah is a big lad, i'll admit i hadn't seen him before.

The opposite is also true like. Scott Penny is a little beast.

Look i'm not getting hung up on size. For me its just part of a trend which i think will be damaging long term for Irish rugby. Its a wall we're coming up against in Saracens and England, regularly.

At under 20's its not been an issue. Our skill level is driving us.

cgq300

Illo and Griffin(leinster) two big tight heads in that under 20s training squads. Both about 6ft 2 and I'd say Illo 118kg Griffin 123kg George saunderson, (ulster) big lad aswell in Loosehead. And obviously Soroka as mentioned above

UAEguy2020

Niallof9 wrote: »

tall players but none of them strike me as physical monsters. again probably examples of conditioning, to adapt to a style. One unfortunately that will see us regularly beaten at international level.

Again its not necessarily that they aren't there its that they are conforming to demands.

At under 20 level our improved skills mean its not as big a problem as it was. At senior level, however, i think it becomes an issue.

McCarthy is pretty massive.

Soroka is also pretty massive but I think it’s really letting him down from an aerobic point of view (looked absolutely gassed after 20 minutes vs Ulster A) needs to work on that bit.

OneLungDavy

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

McCarthy is pretty massive.

Soroka is also pretty massive but I think it’s really letting him down from an aerobic point of view (looked absolutely gassed after 20 minutes vs Ulster A) needs to work on that bit.

I don't see it with Soroka. He's very tall for a back-row(6"6'?) but his muscle mass hasn't matured yet. He will grow obviously but I can't see him going beyond 115kg.

bayern

OneLungDavy wrote: »

I don't see it with Soroka. He's very tall for a back-row(6"6'?) but his muscle mass hasn't matured yet. He will grow obviously but I can't see him going beyond 115kg.

a 6'6, 115kg backrow is huge by irish standards.

Soroka's future is a big mean blindside IMO.

bayern

cgq300 wrote: »

Illo and Griffin(leinster) two big tight heads in that under 20s training squads. Both about 6ft 2 and I'd say Illo 118kg Griffin 123kg George saunderson, (ulster) big lad aswell in Loosehead. And obviously Soroka as mentioned above

didn't even consider this years props... Shane Connolly is a big powerful tighthead too..

the real question is where are the big farmers from Munster gone?

FrannoFan

Niallof9 wrote: »

Having played with him and done the analysis for Mary's trust me he was in terms of raw ability. Of course thats not enough. But i'm using him as an example. Hugh Hogan was a similar type of player once got to the fringes of Leinster, and is now a coach with Leinster. His ability was nowhere near Copelands, but his mentality was light years ahead. I'd reckon your Hogans have a far better chance now. Thats really my point. And i don't think we're good enough, or big enough to be discarding players based on details. We can afford to discard one of the fastest rugby players in the World on tackling, we can afford to discard an athletic freak like Copeland, a natural skillful talent like Zebo. I think we're in danger. I'd rather watch paint dry than watch a team of Van der Fliers.

Again i didn't say he was good enough. He wasn't even picked up by any academy. Peter Smyth would tell you or anybody he knew that Copeland was an athletic freak, like his older brother. Again my point isn't that he was good enough. Its that he didn't get a **** till his mid 20's. Copeland's game was about athletic carrying and pace. I think part of the issue here is theres only four teams meaning naturally players will fall through the crack. Its a tightening on quality but means late developers etc don't get a real shot.

Yeah i mean is he even that big, its hard to tell. 6,2 maybe?

Do we even have any monsters coming through at under 20 level or below?

is there any evidence of giants being discarded though? like you question would a costello make it. I'm pretty sure he would, phenomenal ball carrier and an olympian, they would have stuck with him the way they stick with adam byrne for so long.

We don't genetically have many physical freaks playing. when we do someone keeps a hold of them. Robb in connacht for example. sometimes its lack of ability to learn and incrementally improve holding them back.