Ireland u20 6 nations and world championship 2021

Dubinusa

A lot of our big lads just aren't good enough! Just look at the locks from the u20's that weren't good enough! Sean McCarthy, Jack Regan, Donnan. Sean O Connor, Darragh Maloney, Romaine etc. It's incredible that these past 4 years the talent and physicality have improved. Still, we see lads that looked all star caliber in the back rownot make any strides towards a pro career.The talent is improving and the future looks pretty good.

bayern

Dubinusa wrote: »

A lot of our big lads just aren't good enough! Just look at the locks from the u20's that weren't good enough! Sean McCarthy, Jack Regan, Donnan. Sean O Connor, Darragh Maloney, Romaine etc. It's incredible that these past 4 years the talent and physicality have improved. Still, we see lads that looked all star caliber in the back rownot make any strides towards a pro career.The talent is improving and the future looks pretty good.

Nearly all of those players you listed were small for their position in pro rugby terms.

realhorrorshow

bayern wrote: »

Nearly all of those players you listed were small for their position in pro rugby terms.

Cian Romaine is huge but never made any impact at all while at Connacht unfortunately.

bayern

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Cian Romaine is huge but never made any impact at all while at Connacht unfortunately.

6'5, 115kg isn't huge for a lock.

realhorrorshow

bayern wrote: »

6'5, 115kg isn't huge for a lock.

Fair, he was listed as 125kg while at Connacht I'm pretty sure, because I remember noticing that he was (allegedly) the same height and weight as Quinn Roux.

Edit: this article had him down as 119kg as a 20 year old which is on the big side for an Irish lock. https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/the-future-is-bright-cian-romaine-first-year-academy-34112970.html

Dubinusa

Other lads had unfortunate injury profiles: Claffey is one and Cillian Gallagher is another lad who has been unfortunate.

bayern

Dubinusa wrote: »

Other lads had unfortunate injury profiles: Claffey is one and Cillian Gallagher is another lad who has been unfortunate.

Injuries isn't what prevented them from having pro careers.

realhorrorshow

bayern wrote: »

Injuries isn't what prevented them from having pro careers.

Do tell.. Both were starting u20 locks, Gallagher was captain and a standout. Claffey spent his whole academy contract injured, Gallagher has been pretty much could constantly injured since he was 18.

Niallof9

So ITV said we had the lightest pack in the comp. Do we have an issue here and in the future? Also why has only Kelleher emerged from our recent under 20 teams?

bayern

Niallof9 wrote: »

So ITV said we had the lightest pack in the comp. Do we have an issue here and in the future? Also why has only Kelleher emerged from our recent under 20 teams?

Caelan Doris is younger than Kelleher.

Irish rugby is never going to have huge packs simple genetics.

Clegg

The pipeline of forwards moving from underage representation, to professional level and then to test rugby has been one of the great successes of Irish rugby in recent years. Connors, Ryan, Porter, Deegan, Doris and Kelleher have all come through in recent years.

And I expect to see Ryan Baird, Dan Sheahan, Tom O'Toole, Gavin Coombes, Thomas Aherne and Josh Wycherley to be capped in the near future.

Scott Penney is the best underage Irish forward I've seen since James Ryan, but he's not guaranteed to be called any time soon more so due to the strength in depth Ireland has at openside. Think he'll make it eventually though.

UAEguy2020

We could make it better if we had a policy where we move on players who don’t add a huge lot to the province (playing wise) and will likely never be good enough for Irish honors, at Munster someone like JJ, R.Scannell, Kleyn for example if we clearly have a young player able to step in.

bayern

Rumoured that U20 Shane Connolly headed to Australia to play rugby.

bayern

Chris Cosgrave training with Leinster seniors yesterday.

alanb92

Looks like Cosgrave has bulked up a fair bit. Very excited to see how he will fare at senior level.

bayern

alanb92 wrote: »

Looks like Cosgrave has bulked up a fair bit. Very excited to see how he will fare at senior level.

He's has plenty hype as is.. most of it based on JCT form.. Ill be interested to see how he performs at u20 level before I get excited about him playing senior for leinster.

alanb92

bayern wrote: »

He's has plenty hype as is.. most of it based on JCT form.. Ill be interested to see how he performs at u20 level before I get excited about him playing senior for leinster.

I thought he showed a lot of class in the last 2 years at senior cup level. He made a few basic errors for the Ireland u18's in that age grade's iteration of the 6 nations, but still looked classy in parts - his talent is unquestionable. Sometimes he was a bit lax in throwing risky passes, look daft when they don't come off but a genius if they do. Irish rugby needs players like that, though (the courage to try a risky play & the ability to pull it off).

I've said it before - and I don't intend for this to spark another debate - but someone with his natural talent should kick on massively now that he is in with Leinster every day, getting better coaching etc.

bayern

alanb92 wrote: »

I thought he showed a lot of class in the last 2 years at senior cup level. He made a few basic errors for the Ireland u18's in that age grade's iteration of the 6 nations, but still looked classy in parts - his talent is unquestionable. Sometimes he was a bit lax in throwing risky passes, look daft when they don't come off but a genius if they do. Irish rugby needs players like that, though (the courage to try a risky play & the ability to pull it off).

I've said it before - and I don't intend for this to spark another debate - but someone with his natural talent should kick on massively now that he is in with Leinster every day, getting better coaching etc.

I thought he under performed in 6th year in a hyped Michaels side. He doesn't have elite measurables so will need to maximise what he does have. It will be interesting to see how he gets on for 20s.

alanb92

bayern wrote: »

I thought he under performed in 6th year in a hyped Michaels side. He doesn't have elite measurables so will need to maximise what he does have. It will be interesting to see how he gets on for 20s.

I re-watched the Newbridge - Michaels match back recently and thought he was very impressive. When players are hyped to the extent he has been it is easy to expect too much, but in spite of his pack being second best, I thought he looked a class above for me on a few different aspects. His passing off both sides is excellent. His kicking, both out of hand and off the tee, is extremely impressive. He is deceptively quick too and picks very good lines. So for me (without trying to fan the hype flames) he has a lot of great qualities to be a top fullback. Time will tell.

bayern

alanb92 wrote: »

I re-watched the Newbridge - Michaels match back recently and thought he was very impressive. When players are hyped to the extent he has been it is easy to expect too much, but in spite of his pack being second best, I thought he looked a class above for me on a few different aspects. His passing off both sides is excellent. His kicking, both out of hand and off the tee, is extremely impressive. He is deceptively quick too and picks very good lines. So for me (without trying to fan the hype flames) he has a lot of great qualities to be a top fullback. Time will tell.

well given his reputation and how some people perceive his potential he should look a class above. His place kicking will be irrelevant to his professional career and deceptively quick doesn't really do it at the top level for a back three player.

Other than that a very good passing and kicking game, you'd hope would be basics for an academy back especially if the player is undersized for his position.

Right now i'd rate Andrew Smith and Jack Kelly as better prospects coming out of school, and Cosgrave needs a big u20 season in order to live up to some of the unrealistic hype he got when he was around 16. He could turn out to be a very good player, but it's far from a certainty despite his obvious talents and ability.

A smaller version of Jimmy O'Brien could be his potential future, a quality rugby player that lacks the elite athleticism to be a top level international.

Lucas44

bayern wrote: »

Chris Cosgrave training with Leinster seniors yesterday.

Second best fullback in leinster at u20

Locke_Lamora

bayern wrote: »

well given his reputation and how some people perceive his potential he should look a class above. His place kicking will be irrelevant to his professional career and deceptively quick doesn't really do it at the top level for a back three player.

Other than that a very good passing and kicking game, you'd hope would be basics for an academy back especially if the player is undersized for his position.

Right now i'd rate Andrew Smith and Jack Kelly as better prospects coming out of school, and Cosgrave needs a big u20 season in order to live up to some of the unrealistic hype he got when he was around 16. He could turn out to be a very good player, but it's far from a certainty despite his obvious talents and ability.

A smaller version of Jimmy O'Brien could be his potential future, a quality rugby player that lacks the elite athleticism to be a top level international.

Wouldn't necessarily say that Smith and Kelly were better prospects at that age - they were certainly more physically dominant in their age group but that doesn't equal better players long-term. Personally, I would say Cosgrave is a better passer and kicker, and better in the air than both, while the other two were better tackle-breakers. I watched Kelly a few times playing for the A's and his skill-set just wasn't there imo.

Is cosgrave smaller that Jimmy O'Brien, I have it in my head that JOB is very small while Cosgrave is taller but lankier (bulked up a bit going by that photo)? I was impressed by his acceleration so I'm not sure he's a poor athlete - definitely not by Ireland's standards anyway. Some of the best fullbacks aren't particularly impressive athletes - Ben Smith is one of the best in the last 10 years, but he was exceptional at just about everything, including breaking tackles despite not being the biggest or fastest.

Would agree that Osbourne is probably the better prospect and has been for quite a while - just remains to be seen where the Leinster coaches see his best position being. Think Cosgrave could do with a good u20 season to put the school hype behind him.

I think he'll probably start in a back three with Osbourne, not sure who'll be on the other wing, haven't watched enough of Connacht/Munster ones, and don't think the Ulster players are good enough to have a place nailed down.

bayern

Locke_Lamora wrote: »

Wouldn't necessarily say that Smith and Kelly were better prospects at that age - they were certainly more physically dominant in their age group but that doesn't equal better players long-term. Personally, I would say Cosgrave is a better passer and kicker, and better in the air than both, while the other two were better tackle-breakers. I watched Kelly a few times playing for the A's and his skill-set just wasn't there imo.

Is cosgrave smaller that Jimmy O'Brien, I have it in my head that JOB is very small while Cosgrave is taller but lankier (bulked up a bit going by that photo)? I was impressed by his acceleration so I'm not sure he's a poor athlete - definitely not by Ireland's standards anyway. Some of the best fullbacks aren't particularly impressive athletes - Ben Smith is one of the best in the last 10 years, but he was exceptional at just about everything, including breaking tackles despite not being the biggest or fastest.

Would agree that Osbourne is probably the better prospect and has been for quite a while - just remains to be seen where the Leinster coaches see his best position being. Think Cosgrave could do with a good u20 season to put the school hype behind him.

I think he'll probably start in a back three with Osbourne, not sure who'll be on the other wing, haven't watched enough of Connacht/Munster ones, and don't think the Ulster players are good enough to have a place nailed down.

Kelly joined the academy straight from school and was captain of the irish u20's, he was very highly rated alongside Larmour, it didn't work out as he wasn't able to dominate physically as much as he had in school, especially after a few injuries, but still doesn't mean he wasn't a better prospect than Cosgrave out of school.

You have it wrong in your head then cause JOB is not very small. Cosgrave is shorter than JOB and while a decent athlete, he isn't particularly fast/quick/explosive for an irish back three player. And yeah i'd say it's unlikely Cosgrave is the next Ben Smith.

Cosgrave needs a big u20 season to cement his potential, because right now he isn't any more notable as a prospect than the other academy outside backs in the leinster academy and that isn't a very strong group. And he is well off some of the outside backs produced by Ulster recently in terms of potential.

bayern

Locke_Lamora wrote: »

Wouldn't necessarily say that Smith and Kelly were better prospects at that age - they were certainly more physically dominant in their age group but that doesn't equal better players long-term. Personally, I would say Cosgrave is a better passer and kicker, and better in the air than both, while the other two were better tackle-breakers. I watched Kelly a few times playing for the A's and his skill-set just wasn't there imo.

Is cosgrave smaller that Jimmy O'Brien, I have it in my head that JOB is very small while Cosgrave is taller but lankier (bulked up a bit going by that photo)? I was impressed by his acceleration so I'm not sure he's a poor athlete - definitely not by Ireland's standards anyway. Some of the best fullbacks aren't particularly impressive athletes - Ben Smith is one of the best in the last 10 years, but he was exceptional at just about everything, including breaking tackles despite not being the biggest or fastest.

Would agree that Osbourne is probably the better prospect and has been for quite a while - just remains to be seen where the Leinster coaches see his best position being. Think Cosgrave could do with a good u20 season to put the school hype behind him.

I think he'll probably start in a back three with Osbourne, not sure who'll be on the other wing, haven't watched enough of Connacht/Munster ones, and don't think the Ulster players are good enough to have a place nailed down.

not many standout back three prospects between Munster/Connacht.. it's a weaker year for that position compared to last year..

RuPi

bayern wrote: »

not many standout back three prospects between Munster/Connacht.. it's a weaker year for that position compared to last year..

With the depth in centre for this year group Moxham would be a likely candidate to start on a wing unless he is one of the first choice centres.

theVersatile

bayern wrote: »

not many standout back three prospects between Munster/Connacht.. it's a weaker year for that position compared to last year..

Aaron Leahy would be the stand out Munster back three player this year. Next year is the Gold Standard class for Munster back three players, I think there's four or five players who were involved with Irish 18s at that age - including Sean French's brother Darragh

bayern

RuPi wrote: »

With the depth in centre for this year group Moxham would be a likely candidate to start on a wing unless he is one of the first choice centres.

yeah theres quite a few centres, so expect Moxham will be tried on the wing. But it will all come down to who is released and who is healthy.

Garda Kenny

bayern wrote: »

Chris Cosgrave training with Leinster seniors yesterday.

I suppose it comes down to whether players are born or made. In this case he is a manufactured well skilled player but lacks fundamentals.

I too watched the Newbridge game and his catching technique is not what is required in a full back. He catches on the shoulder and while he turns his body sideways exposes his midriff to chop tackles. He also lacks the pace, discipline and stamina to effectively cover the backfield. In the pro game I can see good outhalf exposing his positioning and reading of the backfield and can see a lot of balls being left to bounce instead of being caught on the full like a good fullback does.

His defensive reads also leave a lot to be desired. He doesn’t make split second decisions and execute them he gets caught in two minds and doesn’t commit. In the Newbridge game he was done on 2v1 when the intercept or at very least man and ball tackle was on for the Newbridge try. What irked me was his “ah well” dropping of head attitude to the miss. He should have committed to decision and executed with conviction.

I said here before he lacks aggression and intensity in contact and I stick to this statement. He will have to compensate a lack of bulk with doggedness which he does not have. I get the feeling he was wrapped in cotton wool and protected in school and this won’t facilitate his transition to the more attritional pro game. He therefore lacks top end pace or at least work rate AND size to be a top full back. I hope I am proven wrong and things can change but as it stands he doesn’t cut it at fullback for me.

Which leads to the question where does he fit in? Centre is log jammed and his lack of doggedness makes me think he wouldn’t fit in there. His reading might improve but failure to commit to and execute decisions makes me think he won’t fit in there. He might have a shot at flyhalf but with little experience there can’t see the transition happening. The same could be said for scrum half. Fullback shortcomings apply to his suitability to wing also. In short he’ll have a tough time displacing Keenan or any of the Leinster first team in the next 4 years. He will get a shot and rotation happens but I would fear for him at European level even in 6 years time when he has developed.

Finally, you are solely responsible along with people at the school for hyping him up. Placing a picture of him training with the firsts is direct advertising of him. To turn around and say you haven’t hyped him is weird and hypocritical. Maybe you should focus on the club lads a bit more

Lost Ormond

Garda Kenny wrote: »

I suppose it comes down to whether players are born or made. In this case he is a manufactured well skilled player but lacks fundamentals.

I too watched the Newbridge game and his catching technique is not what is required in a full back. He catches on the shoulder and while he turns his body sideways exposes his midriff to chop tackles. He also lacks the pace, discipline and stamina to effectively cover the backfield. In the pro game I can see good outhalf exposing his positioning and reading of the backfield and can see a lot of balls being left to bounce instead of being caught on the full like a good fullback does.

His defensive reads also leave a lot to be desired. He doesn’t make split second decisions and execute them he gets caught in two minds and doesn’t commit. In the Newbridge game he was done on 2v1 when the intercept or at very least man and ball tackle was on for the Newbridge try. What irked me was his “ah well” dropping of head attitude to the miss. He should have committed to decision and executed with conviction.

I said here before he lacks aggression and intensity in contact and I stick to this statement. He will have to compensate a lack of bulk with doggedness which he does not have. I get the feeling he was wrapped in cotton wool and protected in school and this won’t facilitate his transition to the more attritional pro game. He therefore lacks top end pace or at least work rate AND size to be a top full back. I hope I am proven wrong and things can change but as it stands he doesn’t cut it at fullback for me.

Which leads to the question where does he fit in? Centre is log jammed and his lack of doggedness makes me think he wouldn’t fit in there. His reading might improve but failure to commit to and execute decisions makes me think he won’t fit in there. He might have a shot at flyhalf but with little experience there can’t see the transition happening. The same could be said for scrum half. Fullback shortcomings apply to his suitability to wing also. In short he’ll have a tough time displacing Keenan or any of the Leinster first team in the next 4 years. He will get a shot and rotation happens but I would fear for him at European level even in 6 years time when he has developed.

Finally, you are solely responsible along with people at the school for hyping him up. Placing a picture of him training with the firsts is direct advertising of him. To turn around and say you haven’t hyped him is weird and hypocritical. Maybe you should focus on the club lads a bit more

He's a kid playing rugby in the games you are describing and you are trying to compare him to a full time athlete which he wasnt near being. Saying he lacks all of pace, discipline etc to be full back is not fair at all. He was a kid playing with his class mates in those games. Nothing more than that.

realhorrorshow

Garda Kenny wrote: »

I suppose it comes down to whether players are born or made. In this case he is a manufactured well skilled player but lacks fundamentals.

I too watched the Newbridge game and his catching technique is not what is required in a full back. He catches on the shoulder and while he turns his body sideways exposes his midriff to chop tackles. He also lacks the pace, discipline and stamina to effectively cover the backfield. In the pro game I can see good outhalf exposing his positioning and reading of the backfield and can see a lot of balls being left to bounce instead of being caught on the full like a good fullback does.

His defensive reads also leave a lot to be desired. He doesn’t make split second decisions and execute them he gets caught in two minds and doesn’t commit. In the Newbridge game he was done on 2v1 when the intercept or at very least man and ball tackle was on for the Newbridge try. What irked me was his “ah well” dropping of head attitude to the miss. He should have committed to decision and executed with conviction.

I said here before he lacks aggression and intensity in contact and I stick to this statement. He will have to compensate a lack of bulk with doggedness which he does not have. I get the feeling he was wrapped in cotton wool and protected in school and this won’t facilitate his transition to the more attritional pro game. He therefore lacks top end pace or at least work rate AND size to be a top full back. I hope I am proven wrong and things can change but as it stands he doesn’t cut it at fullback for me.

Which leads to the question where does he fit in? Centre is log jammed and his lack of doggedness makes me think he wouldn’t fit in there. His reading might improve but failure to commit to and execute decisions makes me think he won’t fit in there. He might have a shot at flyhalf but with little experience there can’t see the transition happening. The same could be said for scrum half. Fullback shortcomings apply to his suitability to wing also. In short he’ll have a tough time displacing Keenan or any of the Leinster first team in the next 4 years. He will get a shot and rotation happens but I would fear for him at European level even in 6 years time when he has developed.

Finally, you are solely responsible along with people at the school for hyping him up. Placing a picture of him training with the firsts is direct advertising of him. To turn around and say you haven’t hyped him is weird and hypocritical. Maybe you should focus on the club lads a bit more

If this post was about a senior pro or even academy player id say fair enough. But going to town like this on a teenager who is not part of the professional game doesn't sit well with me. Pretty ugly stuff.

Also "solely responsible along with people at the school," which is it then?