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And so it begins...

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Comments

  • #302
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,316 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Widdershins wrote: »
    I'm not sure if this is common knowledge.
    https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16388184_762424430572437_4846068352408505183_n.jpg?oh=3c5c4a9dfa44990e209cd0184db0b532&oe=5912D7E6

    It's been mentioned a few times on other threads. I don't think it excuses US actions though.


  • #303
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Widdershins wrote: »
    I'm not sure if this is common knowledge.
    https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16388184_762424430572437_4846068352408505183_n.jpg?oh=3c5c4a9dfa44990e209cd0184db0b532&oe=5912D7E6

    So America is now at the same level of dictatorships, and near failed states. Some achievement from Trump on that.


  • #304
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    wes wrote: »
    So America is now at the same level of dictatorships, and near failed states. Some achievement from Trump on that.

    You're right, USA should never have stopped to their level. But again, begs the question as to why these countries were never criticised over their actions in the first place. And 'theyre dictatorships' etc, is not good a good argument. They should be criticised to the same level that the US is being currently.


  • #305
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Grayson wrote: »
    It's been mentioned a few times on other threads. I don't think it excuses US actions though.

    No. It doesn't.


  • #306
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    wakka12 wrote: »
    You're right, USA should never have stopped to their level. But again, begs the question as to why these countries were never criticised over their actions in the first place. And 'theyre dictatorships' etc, is not good a good argument. They should be criticised to the same level that the US is being currently.

    Democracies should always be held to a higher standard, than a dictatorship, or a near failed 3rd world country. When, you claim to be the leader of the free world, its only right to be held to that standard.

    Secondly, the whole line of argument smacks of whatabotery. Sure, I could say, well sure what those countries do is bad, but look how Israel treats Palestinians in the West Bank. Its a simple distraction, that lets people excuse this kind of carry on.


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  • #307
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,434 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Media can blare the '' non constitutional '' text across the screen and invoke a huge reaction in people to protest.
    Do people really believe that the citizens of these 7 countries had a free pass to travel to the US before this 90 day ban. The ban is there to put in place better vetting, it's put in place to improve upon what was already there under Obama. The only thing that has changed is this temporary 90 day ban. I'm sure after this ban that it will become more difficult for anyone to slip through the net. You can't have a situation like in Europe where people come and go to Syria and simply walk back in to Europe to slaughter people. It is clearly not a Muslim ban.
    As for refugees ,does it matter their religion ? Should Trump choose Muslims over Christians ? If the US only takes Christian refugees then it should not be frowned upon.
    It would actually solve a problem. Europe wants US to do it's part, so why not send them Christian refugees.


  • #308
    Commotion Ocean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 552 ✭✭✭Commotion Ocean


    This reminds me of Hitler's Final Solution.

    Jews are not real Germans.

    Let's deport them.

    Oh, deportation doesn't work? Let's gas them.

    It's only a matter of time before people are herded into camps by Trump.


  • #309
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    I am sure it has been mentioned, that a court order was made against some aspects of the executive order, that has been ignored:

    Border agents defy courts on Trump travel ban, congressmen and lawyers say


    So the border agents who did this, are violating the law, and should be imprisoned, surely. As the President is not above the law, and neither are his lackeys.


  • #310
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    dfeo wrote: »
    This reminds me of Hitler's Final Solution.

    Jews are not real Germans.

    Let's deport them.

    Oh, deportation doesn't work? Let's gas them.

    It's only a matter of time before people are herded into camps by Trump.

    Herding people into camps :rolleyes: Such a load of hysterical trash. Try to get a grip on reality, it's slipping away from you.


  • #311
    Commotion Ocean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 552 ✭✭✭Commotion Ocean


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    Herding people into camps :rolleyes: Such a load of hysterical trash. Try to get a grip on reality, it's slipping away from you.

    No one thought Hitler would ever go that far ... but he did.


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  • #312
    Boggy Turf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 427 ✭✭Boggy Turf


    dfeo wrote: »
    This reminds me of Hitler's Final Solution.

    Jews are not real Germans.

    Let's deport them.

    Oh, deportation doesn't work? Let's gas them.

    It's only a matter of time before people are herded into camps by Trump.

    I see people on FB calling him Der Fuhrer.

    People are getting thicker and more sensational with each passing year.


  • #313
    Yourself isit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    dfeo wrote: »
    No one thought Hitler would ever go that far ... but he did.

    I was a bit worried about Obama using his Muslim death ray gun to do that too but it didn't happen.

    Dont assume the worst.


  • #314
    Yourself isit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    wes wrote: »
    So America is now at the same level of dictatorships, and near failed states. Some achievement from Trump on that.

    But the US has had via restrictions before. Not just iraq under Obama.

    The miscalculation here was to treat green card holders in that fashion.


  • #315
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    dfeo wrote: »
    No one thought Hitler would ever go that far ... but he did.

    Going around comparing things and people you don't like to Hitler and Nazis means that noone who is playing with a full deck is going to take you seriously. It's asinine, it's pure hysteria.

    images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTsQDRe07ydOUdk_Mq3lCYIK9fdTLVD2H7yW6GbwN7nNqYylJC_nQ


  • #316
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    dfeo wrote: »
    No one thought Hitler would ever go that far ... but he did.

    Hitler didn't have the eyes of the world on him, anticipating what he might do to people.


  • #317
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    Herding people into camps :rolleyes: Such a load of hysterical trash. Try to get a grip on reality, it's slipping away from you.

    Really? Really?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/29/trump-asked-for-a-muslim-ban-giuliani-says-and-ordered-a-commission-to-do-it-legally/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_giuliani-435pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.a867a0fcf840

    Watch this and then ask yourself what is the meaningful difference between a 'detention camp' and a 'concentration camp'.

    Both Giuliani and the 'Judge' interviewing him think they sound like a 'great idea' altogether.

    It's a worrying time in the world, when such fascist thinking is openly spoken, only a half dozen years ago this kind of talk would have been simply shunned yet we have a situation that even on a community board in Ireland it's suddenly quite acceptable to espouse genuine fascist ideology.


  • #318
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    Widdershins wrote: »
    Hitler didn't have the eyes of the world on him, anticipating what he might do to people.

    The lefts Uncle Joe Stalin and the Bolsheviks were a lot worse than Hitler and the Nazis in terms of the body count they stacked up, but nobody compares anyone to them. They barely get a mention. The political left never ever ever mentions them. Airbrushed from the history books.


  • #319
    Yourself isit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    Havockk wrote: »
    Really? Really?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/29/trump-asked-for-a-muslim-ban-giuliani-says-and-ordered-a-commission-to-do-it-legally/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_giuliani-435pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.a867a0fcf840

    Watch this and then ask yourself what is the meaningful difference between a 'detention camp' and a 'concentration camp'.

    Both Giuliani and the 'Judge' interviewing him think they sound like a 'great idea' altogether.

    It's a worrying time in the world, when such fascist thinking is openly spoken, only a half dozen years ago this kind of talk would have been simply shunned yet we have a situation that even on a community board in Ireland it's suddenly quite acceptable to espouse genuine fascist ideology.

    A detention "camp" (ie cell) is fairly common for people with visa violations in any country in the world, including here.

    I've been held myself.

    There's just far too much hysteria around trump. If people keep crying Nazi now then what happens later if he does go over the top.

    Add someone who had opposed the US foreign policy of the last few years I kind of welcome that the US is coming under the kind of scrutiny it always needed when bush Obama and Clinton were bombing Yemen, aiding al Queda, and de posing ghadaffi. Or torturing in guantanomo.

    Is a wee bit hypocritical though.


  • #320
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Yourself isit wrote: »
    A detention "camp" (ie cell) is fairly common for people with visa violations in any country in the world, including here.

    I've been held myself.

    In this context it's quite clear the idea is to 'round' people up 'instead' of processing in the normal fashion. This is EXACTLY what Hitler did. It simply cannot be defended.


  • #321
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    The lefts Uncle Joe Stalin and the Bolsheviks were a lot worse than Hitler and the Nazis in terms of the body count they stacked up, but nobody compares anyone to them. They barely get a mention. The political left never ever ever mentions them. Airbrushed from the history books.

    Because Uncle Joe and Co helped the Allies win the war.

    Without the blood sacrifice, i.e. carelessly throwing away millions of lives by Uncle Joe and Co, they bled the Wehrmacht dry.

    Hence why the Allies were fighting 14 year olds and old men in the Ardennes in 1944.


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  • #322
    Yourself isit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    Havockk wrote: »
    In this context it's quite clear the idea is to 'round' people up 'instead' of processing in the normal fashion. This is EXACTLY what Hitler did. It simply cannot be defended.

    What context? I read that piece. Couldn't see that.


  • #323
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    The lefts Uncle Joe Stalin and the Bolsheviks were a lot worse than Hitler and the Nazis in terms of the body count they stacked up, but nobody compares anyone to them. They barely get a mention. The political left never ever ever mentions them. Airbrushed from the history books.

    Oh God yes, excellent point. Erm..might it be because, you know, it's a bit of a stain on the communist utopian ideals they often seem to favour? An inconvenient part of history for the Left


  • #324
    Boggy Turf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 427 ✭✭Boggy Turf


    degsie wrote: »
    With Trump's executive order on Muslim immigration, his siding up with Russia and his spat with Mexico, alongside the UK turning its back on Europe, we are heading towards a darker place. The world seems a little less safe right now.

    But how do you feel less safe? He's just a stupid American elected by other stupid Americans. I have known about stupid Americans for decades. But I also know there are smart Americans to counter them. Life goes on.

    I am looking at my mangy dog sitting beside the fire here. He doesn't seem anymore scared than last week. He doesn't appear less safe to me. Maybe we should all be like my dog. He couldn't give a fiddlers fcuk I reckon.

    I was playing progressive 25 (a card game) last night in the community centre. Nobody up there seemed less safe than the previous Sunday. Seamus Walsh was a bit frightened because he was getting less trumps than usual but the cute whore knows how to get the soft tricks. Should I tell my card playing friends to feel less safe?

    You say we are heading towards a darker place? I don't feel that way. I used to do a lot of caving here and in England and I have gotten lost in some unbelievably dark places. I found my way out and I learned some things, things like bring more batteries, bring more chalk, bring more food, find better cave maps. Do I feel the world is a darker place today? No. It's January in Ireland, you wait until the clocks go forward - you'll have more light than you can shake a stick at!
    .


  • #325
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    wes wrote: »
    Democracies should always be held to a higher standard, than a dictatorship, or a near failed 3rd world country. When, you claim to be the leader of the free world, its only right to be held to that standard.

    Secondly, the whole line of argument smacks of whatabotery. Sure, I could say, well sure what those countries do is bad, but look how Israel treats Palestinians in the West Bank. Its a simple distraction, that lets people excuse this kind of carry on.

    If we do not hold these places to any standard then there is no hope of them ever improving.


  • #326
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    Widdershins wrote: »
    Oh God yes, excellent point. Erm..might it be because, you know, it's a bit of a stain on the communist utopian ideals they often seem to favour? An inconvenient part of history for the Left

    The argument used is that Stalinism is not Marxism; that Stalinism is a bastardised form of Marxism.

    That's the defence used anyway.


  • #327
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    Ulysses Gaze wrote: »
    The argument used is that Stalinism is not Marxism; that Stalinism is a bastardised form of Marxism.

    That's the defence used anyway.

    Yet the drivel sounds the same.


  • #328
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,144 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    Media can blare the '' non constitutional '' text across the screen and invoke a huge reaction in people to protest.
    Do people really believe that the citizens of these 7 countries had a free pass to travel to the US before this 90 day ban. The ban is there to put in place better vetting, it's put in place to improve upon what was already there under Obama. The only thing that has changed is this temporary 90 day ban. I'm sure after this ban that it will become more difficult for anyone to slip through the net. You can't have a situation like in Europe where people come and go to Syria and simply walk back in to Europe to slaughter people. It is clearly not a Muslim ban.
    As for refugees ,does it matter their religion ? Should Trump choose Muslims over Christians ? If the US only takes Christian refugees then it should not be frowned upon.
    It would actually solve a problem. Europe wants US to do it's part, so why not send them Christian refugees.

    why christians. as we have witnessed in terms of america, christians make up plenty of the extremists who have injured and slaughtered. so surely then it's both religions are taken in or no religion?
    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    The lefts Uncle Joe Stalin and the Bolsheviks were a lot worse than Hitler and the Nazis in terms of the body count they stacked up, but nobody compares anyone to them. They barely get a mention. The political left never ever ever mentions them. Airbrushed from the history books.

    incorrect i'm afraid. both of those bits of vermin are talked about as well. strawman and whataboutery.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #329
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    pilly wrote: »
    I never said people had the human right to live anywhere but the fact of the matter is that people who have legally applied for and been given a green card and made lives in the USA have the right to return there.

    Do you dispute this?

    Yes I dispute it. President Trump has made an executive desicion to cancel for 90 days all the visas that had been issued to nationals of 7 countries. So as of now they don't have the right. So what?


  • #330
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    Apparently Enda said around the time of his meeting with May, he doesnt agree with Trumps decision regarding the visa/travel bans, but he (Trump) is just standing by his electoral promises, I scoffed at the irony, which seems to be lost on Enda as he said this.

    or maybe Enda means
    he doesnt agree with Trumps decision to stand by his electoral promises :rolleyes:, Enda cant compute that!?
    He obviously has nothing between his ears, he seems to have outright forgotten statements he has made, its taken till now to get his party to want him gone, no wonder he hardly says anything, certainly nothing meaningful, they have just got to be keeping him shut up before he does anymore damage (to his party/hacks/cronies), any damage to us is collateral and of no consequence to them.


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  • #331
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    Yourself isit wrote: »
    A detention "camp" (ie cell) is fairly common for people with visa violations in any country in the world, including here.

    I've been held myself.

    There's just far too much hysteria around trump. If people keep crying Nazi now then what happens later if he does go over the top.

    Add someone who had opposed the US foreign policy of the last few years I kind of welcome that the US is coming under the kind of scrutiny it always needed when bush Obama and Clinton were bombing Yemen, aiding al Queda, and de posing ghadaffi. Or torturing in guantanomo.

    Is a wee bit hypocritical though.

    The placard waving zombie left who pretend to care about human rights (when it suits them) only come out of hibernation when things are not going their way. Obama and psychopath Clinton could do whatever they wanted and those who pretend to care about human rights couldn't give a damn. The "Arab Spring" and the domino effect of wars and migrant crisis that followed - Silence. Libya - Silence. Supporting Terrorists in Syria and all over the Middle East - Silence. Drone Strikes - Silence, etc etc. Lefty pawns have no minds of their own at all, biological robots programmed by their right-on gurus and Facebook.


  • #332
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    The placard waving zombie left who pretend to care about human rights (when it suits them) only come out of hibernation when things are not going their way. Obama and psychopath Clinton could do whatever they wanted and those who pretend to care about human rights couldn't give a damn. The "Arab Spring" and the domino effect of wars and migrant crisis that followed - Silence. Libya - Silence. Supporting Terrorists in Syria and all over the Middle East - Silence. Drone Strikes - Silence, etc etc. Lefty pawns have no minds of their own at all, biological robots programmed by their right-on gurus and Facebook.

    Funny Bombings and drone strikes still continues under trump along with an incursion into Yemen over the weekend ,
    But that's ok because the it wasn't done by a black president that wasn't racist or elected by far right racists,

    Some people
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #333
    cerastes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,601 ✭✭✭cerastes


    Widdershins wrote: »
    Hitler didn't have the eyes of the world on him, anticipating what he might do to people.

    Yes, but at least hitler shot hitler,
    Gatling wrote: »
    Funny Bombings and drone strikes still continues under trump along with an incursion into Yemen over the weekend ,
    But that's ok because the it wasn't done by a black president that wasn't racist or elected by far right racists,

    Some people

    I dont see whats so funny about bombings and drone strikes?


  • #334
    Widdershins
    Registered Users Posts: 10,633 ✭✭✭✭Widdershins


    cerastes wrote: »
    Yes, but at least hitler shot hitler,



    I dont see whats so funny about bombings and drone strikes?

    His last deed was a good one. Like Severus Snape.


  • #335
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    cerastes wrote: »
    Yes, but at least hitler shot hitler,



    I dont see whats so funny about bombings and drone strikes?

    The funny part is hypocritical posts decrying bombing and drone strikes while cheerleaders supporting other Bombings and military strikes by other players ,
    But as long as it wasn't Obama or Clinton involved the moral fauxrage vanishes ,
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #336
    Yourself isit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    The placard waving zombie left who pretend to care about human rights (when it suits them) only come out of hibernation when things are not going their way. Obama and psychopath Clinton could do whatever they wanted and those who pretend to care about human rights couldn't give a damn. The "Arab Spring" and the domino effect of wars and migrant crisis that followed - Silence. Libya - Silence. Supporting Terrorists in Syria and all over the Middle East - Silence. Drone Strikes - Silence, etc etc. Lefty pawns have no minds of their own at all, biological robots programmed by their right-on gurus and Facebook.

    Its a totally different leftism though. When was the last time you saw the banners of the swp, or trade unions at these marches.


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  • #337
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    Gatling wrote: »
    The funny part is hypothetical posts decrying bombing and drone strikes while cheerleaders supporting other Bombings and military strikes by other players ,
    But as long as it wasn't Obama or Clinton involved the moral fauxrage vanishes ,

    Another one flew over your head Gatling. The point I am making is that there was zero outrage from those who say they really really care about human rights when Obama was bombing brown people, kicking off wars, helping terrorists, signing mass surveillance bills etc.. Not a peep from the ''outraged'' crowd, the kind of people that were marching in London today had nothing to say for the last eight years because Mr Hope and Change was in the White House and their gurus (who do all their thinking for them) loved him. They spent the last eight years dreaming up new words for made up genders.


  • #338
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Austria announces it will ban Islamic veils and force migrants to sign 'integration contracts' agreeing to accept 'enlightenment values'.

    The plan is to prevent '600,000 Muslims feeling they are not part of society', perhaps other countries will follow?
    Imagine it would be very hard to enforce such a contract. Wonder what it contains, thou must watch the 'sound of music'?


  • #339
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    Yourself isit wrote: »
    Its a totally different leftism though. When was the last time you saw the banners of the swp, or trade unions at these marches.

    It's an evolution of the same thing. The SWP and its various front groups/affiliates get deeply involved in every trendy cause doing the rounds here in Ireland. Comrade Paul Murphy was off to see a member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt recently. It's no surprise at all that international Communism, which is still alive and well masquerading under different banners, doesn't like borders. One of the worst things about these no-good commie leeches is when they see a genuine issue/grievance that people have they immediately try to hijack it. Pure poison the lot of them.


  • #340
    DanielODonnell
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 652 ✭✭✭DanielODonnell


    Trump is of Scottish island stock, he should be kissing Nicola sturgeons feet and bowing to martin McGuinness


  • #341
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    Jimmy Garlic wrote: »
    The placard waving zombie left who pretend to care about human rights (when it suits them) only come out of hibernation when things are not going their way. Obama and psychopath Clinton could do whatever they wanted and those who pretend to care about human rights couldn't give a damn. The "Arab Spring" and the domino effect of wars and migrant crisis that followed - Silence. Libya - Silence. Supporting Terrorists in Syria and all over the Middle East - Silence. Drone Strikes - Silence, etc etc. Lefty pawns have no minds of their own at all, biological robots programmed by their right-on gurus and Facebook.
    There were protests over the drone strikes, there were protests over the surveillance laws, there were protests over Syria, and so on.

    Admittedly the protests over Trump are larger, and they started much quicker, but that's due to the attention that the media heaped on Trump during the election. Ironically the same thing that let him get into power, is now getting people out to protest against him.


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  • #342
    Boom_Bap
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    Thread Closed.

    All Trump discussion goes here -> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057691808
    Please pay attention to the mod warning in the OP.

    There are also more formal dicussions on all things Trump happening in the Politics Forum and in the Politics Cafe, if you are going to post there, please pay attention to the forum charters as they are different to After Hours.


  • #343
    Boom_Bap
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    Thread Closed.

    All Trump discussion goes here -> http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057691808
    Please pay attention to the mod warning in the OP.

    There are also more formal dicussions on all things Trump happening in the Politics Forum and in the Politics Cafe, if you are going to post there, please pay attention to the forum charters as they are different to After Hours.


This discussion has been closed.
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