The Future of Longwave 252kHz (RTE Radio 1)

lertsnim · 22-09-2016 9:54pm

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

How does one listen to satellite television while driving ?

You don't. Great question.

Ursus Horribilis · 22-09-2016 9:57pm

I doubt the demographic in question is driving cars.

Fuzzy Clam · 22-09-2016 10:30pm

Banjoxed wrote:

Source?

Source for what?
A source of mine in RTE reckons that only a few hundred people listen to LW going by response.

Stasi 2.0 · 23-09-2016 12:19pm

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

I doubt the demographic in question is driving cars.

I listen to 252 in the car because RTE's FM signal is patchy where I live and DAB is non existent.

I have satellite DAB DTT and internet in the house

Not all 252 listeners fit into the elderly/lonely/vunerable/uncomfortable with technology stereotype on the other hand some elderly people still drive.

I dont figure in RTE's stats since as how I dont live in mainland Britain.

The_Captain · 23-09-2016 12:21pm

What the hell is Rtel W252? It sounds like a brand of modem

Stasi 2.0 · 23-09-2016 12:40pm

The_Captain wrote: »

What the hell is Rtel W252?m

RTE Radio's long wave radio service on 252 KHz which some pen pushers want to kill off despite none of the replacement technologies being as versatile or reliable.

Prior to killing it off theyre running it at a fraction of its authorised power in order to convince people that the resultant poor reception is down to inherent flaws in the LW medium

Ursus Horribilis · 23-09-2016 1:16pm

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

I listen to 252 in the car because RTE's FM signal is patchy where I live and DAB is non existent.

Do you mind me asking what part of the country you're driving in that doesn't have a signal? I'm curious as to where the blackspots are.

Stasi 2.0 · 23-09-2016 1:36pm

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Do you mind me asking what part of the country you're driving inre.

In much of County Antrim RTE's FM signal is poor to non existent. However in parts of Co. Derry its often stronger than the BBC or local stations

savelongwave · 23-09-2016 1:47pm

LW252 listenership survey carried out by Ethics Dep Middlesex University and involved 3,000+ respondents. So many responded that extra staff had to be hired.

savelongwave · 23-09-2016 1:51pm

Digital television was successful because it was cheap to execute with a small cheap box connected to existing televisions and offered more channels. There was a quantum leap in quality easily visible. Replacing the multi use radio modes is far different which offer continuos listening throughout house and garden and on the move OVER VERY LONG DISTANCES THE SAME STATION CAN BE HEAARD EVEN INTERNATIONALLY. DAB DOES NOT OFFER THIS AND YET THEY DECIDE TO "DRIVE" US TOWARDS IT.

BreadnBuddha · 23-09-2016 2:05pm

savelongwave wrote: »

Digital television was successful because it was cheap to execute with a small cheap box connected to existing televisions and offered more channels. There was a quantum leap in quality easily visible. Replacing the multi use radio modes is far different which offer continuos listening throughout house and garden and on the move OVER VERY LONG DISTANCES THE SAME STATION CAN BE HEAARD EVEN INTERNATIONALLY. DAB DOES NOT OFFER THIS AND YET THEY DECIDE TO "DRIVE" US TOWARDS IT.

WiFi or 3G/4G mobile internet with an app or an internet radio is NOT DAB.

If you can get internet access, which you can pretty much everywhere, you can listen to RTE radio.

You keep arguing as though this is 1970. It's not. LW broadcasting for a national broadcaster like RTE for a SMALL listenership overseas is a WASTE OF MONEY.

Kill it off.

Stasi 2.0 · 23-09-2016 2:06pm

savelongwave wrote: »

. DAB DOES NOT OFFER THIS AND YET THEY DECIDE TO "DRIVE" US TOWARDS IT.

DAB is not even available in the Western half of the Republic of Ireland and RTE's DAB signal doesnt reach into NI (with the possible exception of south Armagh/Down ?) at all and coverage outside Ireland is virtually zero (bar maybe the odd mountain top in Wales ?)

So theyre driving people towards something which doesnt exist.

What the pen pushers fail to grasp is that these new technologies should compliment rather than replace existing platforms.

Theyre the ones who are ignorant regarding technology.

Fuzzy Clam · 23-09-2016 2:31pm

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

DAB is not even available in the Western half of the Republic of Ireland and RTE's DAB signal doesnt reach into NI (with the possible exception of south Armagh/Down ?) at all and coverage outside Ireland is virtually zero (bar maybe the odd mountain top in Wales ?)

So theyre driving people towards something which doesnt exist.

What the pen pushers fail to grasp is that these new technologies should compliment rather than replace existing platforms.

Theyre the ones who are ignorant regarding technology.

As most of the country cannot receive DAB, RTE are not pushing people towards it. FM is the preferred platform.

LW and AM in general is largely redundant. Filling in the blackspots in the FM network should be their priority.

endagibson · 23-09-2016 2:35pm

savertelw252 wrote: »

WE MOST STOP THIS.

Must we?

loyatemu · 23-09-2016 2:39pm

RTE have been discussing lauching a diaspora TV service on Sky or Freesat. Why not a diaspora radio service on UK DAB, would allow them to sell local advertising to defray some of the carriage costs, and would probably attract listeners who currently don't listen to LW because of the poor sound quality (or because they don't even know it exists)...

savelongwave · 23-09-2016 2:41pm

RTE has produced some excellent programmes on our emigrants and one understands the financial pressure broadcasters are

under with fragmentation of audiences etc but RTE executives are out of touch on the LW252 issue.

There must be no switch off of LW 252 until a suitable replacement exists.

UK attempted to turn off FM and had to postpone after two attempts.

Digital has been a leap forward connecting us together via the internet to share ideas and broaden

opportunities but the internet cannot replace a long distance service covering these islands be it BBC

Droitwich or RTE Summerhill.

Digital TV freed up channels that are now used for DAB.

These high frequencies originally used as tv channels do not travel far needing many more transmitters than FM.

so who is going to pay for all these new transmitter sites ?

In the UK some DAB multiplexes (transmitters) have been overloaded with extra services meaning MW mono quality.

FM provides consistent fidelity and cannot be tampered with by broadcasters as a means of making money by shoehorning in more programmes that the system was originally intended to carry.

L1011 · 23-09-2016 2:42pm

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

So theyre driving people towards something which doesnt exist.

They're not driving people towards it.

endagibson · 23-09-2016 2:44pm

savertelw252 wrote: »

the elderly, the lonely, the sick and the isolated, a disgusting attack on our diaspora and on rural Ireland.

I understand that the elderly and the isolated may not have access to the internet, smart phones, etc. bar LW radio, but what's preventing the other groups that you mention above from switching to other channels?

former total · 23-09-2016 2:57pm

loyatemu wrote: »

RTE have been discussing lauching a diaspora TV service on Sky or Freesat. Why not a diaspora radio service on UK DAB, would allow them to sell local advertising to defray some of the carriage costs, and would probably attract listeners who currently don't listen to LW because of the poor sound quality (or because they don't even know it exists)...

They did try to get onto DAB during the last round of licensing over there, but were not successful.

Despite the propaganda, RTE are doing their best to provide services to the Irish community abroad. It's just that LW is a really, really bad way to achieve it.

Antenna · 23-09-2016 3:20pm

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

How does one listen to satellite television while driving ?

long range LW and MW is of course potentially most of value in vehicles, but one major negative for the LW campaign is the removal of LW coverage on the car radios of leading car brands on 'these Islands' over the past number of years: Toyota, VW, Opel/Vauxhall and others all don't cover LW nowadays.

RTE R1 listeners in FM-less areas of NI, and Britain are not going to complain about the potential loss of this if they already lost it when they replaced their car, and have other options to listen at home/workplace.

Stasi 2.0 · 23-09-2016 3:25pm

For such a supposedly tiny and technologically ignorant group of listeners they sure seem to have a knack for campaigng on online forums and social media.

Maybe they are more numerous and technically clued in than many are suggesting ?

Stasi 2.0 · 23-09-2016 3:30pm

My car has an (aftermarket) LW radio because I sepecifically got one to listen to RTE.

It also has a USB port which I use for mp3 podcasts.

252 listeners are not all elderly or technoligically backward. We just know which technologies work best for which application/circumstances.

LW works. Its tried and tested. If it aint broke why fix it ?

ED E · 23-09-2016 3:50pm

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

LW works. Its tried and tested. If it aint broke why fix it ?

Cost.

RTÉ estimates running costs of only €250,000 per year

my3cents · 23-09-2016 3:52pm

I don't really get the cost saving exercise? RTE afaik have not said what that running costs of a LW service are but they are believed to be €150,000 to €250,000 pa. Now that sounds a huge amount but when you compare the running costs to the wage costs of presenters and top executives you find you could save much more by getting rid of one presenter, one executive or a couple of management jobs.

So if RTE save €250,000 do you think they will give it back to the tax and licence fee payers of this country or do you think they will just spend the money on something else.

Fuzzy Clam · 23-09-2016 3:53pm

savelongwave wrote:

UK attempted to turn off FM and had to postpone after two attempts.

Not true.

loyatemu · 23-09-2016 4:05pm

my3cents wrote: »

So if RTE save €250,000 do you think they will give it back to the tax and licence fee payers of this country or do you think they will just spend the money on something else.

I assume they'll give it to Tubs.

Stasi 2.0 · 23-09-2016 4:05pm

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Not true.

Well two of their proposed deadlines passed and FM is still the main transmission platforn in the UK

But this thread is supposed to be about longwave.

Graham · 23-09-2016 4:19pm

my3cents wrote: »

So if RTE save €250,000 do you think they will give it back to the tax and licence fee payers of this country or do you think they will just spend the money on something else.

They'll probably use the saving to reduce the anticipated €20,000,000 loss that's forecast this year.

Fuzzy Clam · 23-09-2016 4:21pm

my3cents wrote:

I don't really get the cost saving exercise? RTE afaik have not said what that running costs of a LW service are but they are believed to be â‚¬150,000 to â‚¬250,000 pa. Now that sounds a huge amount but when you compare the running costs to the wage costs of presenters and top executives you find you could save much more by getting rid of one presenter, one executive or a couple of management jobs.

The cost itself is not massive if it had the numbers listening to it to justify it.
But it doesn't.

Banjoxed · 23-09-2016 4:48pm

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

The cost itself is not massive if it had the numbers listening to it to justify it.
But it doesn't.

How much do the RTÉ DAB transmitters cost and what is their listenership?

Stasi 2.0 · 23-09-2016 4:54pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

How much do the RTÉ DAB transmitters cost and what is their listenership?

Or the IT infrastructure to support their online streams, Podcasts and "Listen again" services.

Graham · 23-09-2016 5:01pm

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

Or the IT infrastructure to support their online streams, Podcasts and "Listen again" services.

It's a growing market, not a shrinking one like LW.

Fuzzy Clam · 23-09-2016 5:12pm

Banjoxed wrote:

How much do the RTÃ‰ DAB transmitters cost and what is their listenership?

You tell me.

ghostdancer · 23-09-2016 5:44pm

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

For such a supposedly tiny and technologically ignorant group of listeners they sure seem to have a knack for campaigng on online forums and social media.

Maybe they are more numerous and technically clued in than many are suggesting ?

you're right, they're not technologically ignorant. most of the very small amount of people who will be affected are no doubt well able to work out how to tune in an FM radio, or listen via the internet.

so yet another reason why the OP and the LW defenders are talking rubbish really.

Logue no2 · 23-09-2016 5:47pm

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

You tell me.

DAB as implemented by RTÉ has been a total failure. Nothing but the RTÉ stations and an offer to carry BBC radio was rejected by RTÉ. The commercial stations won't touch it with a barge pole and the transmitters waste far more electricity than Clarkestown as a result.

But let's be very clear what the purpose of the Radio 1 service is on Long Wave. It's explicitly there to serve the Irish in Britain and parts of continental Europe. The service is underpinned by the Section 114 of the Broadcasting Act of 2009; the act directs RTÉ to provide a television and sound broadcasting service to the diaspora.

RTÉ up till now have provided the sound element of its obligation to the diaspora but have hidden behind the poor offerings of the International version of the RTÉ Player to claim they provide an overseas television service to the diaspora. They most certainly do not. I will never forget that RTÉ allowed Tara TV into liquidation in 2002 despite a rescue plan from Setanta being in place. When Tara shut we lost RTÉ television from the uk Sky epg and there is no sign yet of a replacement. RTE's track record with the diaspora so far has been utterly shameful.

I believe RTÉ want to rid themselves of the cost of providing the 252 LW service and switch us abroad over to the Internet, just as they have tried to with TV. The fact that the Department of Communications has been satisfied with the RTÉ player excuse for Diaspora TV has no doubt given RTÉ executives the excuse and encouragement to bin Long Wave.

But Internet radio isn't free radio in the sense that it costs nothing to receive provided you have to right equipment. Many people have capped Internet services, especially mobile and a couple of hours of Internet Radio will soon chew up that cap. Also if too many people are listening the streams get used up. The All Ireland hurling and football finals or Irish soccer and Rugby internationals have often pushed the RTÉ streams to their limit and people can't listen. A radio service via RF doesn't have that restriction.

Mobile reception via the Astra satellite is impossible and mobile internet reception is patchy and unreliable. I listen to 252 in my car in London. It's at low power and the Algerian signal on 252 interferes but I can just about listen. It's been suggested that RTÉ should take the vacated 261 kHz frequency and put Radio 1 back on full power. Getting permission from the international authorities would be fairly straightforward and would give us in Britain a reliable signal again.

Dont forget the original proposal to drop 252 by RTÉ tied in with them losing the tv licence revenue from the over 75s. I believe RTÉ have been using 252 as a stick to beat the government with over funding.

It would suit RTÉ to claim as Fuzzy Clam does that there are only a few hundred LW listeners in Britain. That is a barefaced lie and I would love to see the research proving that claim.

Graham · 23-09-2016 5:52pm

Logue no2 wrote: »

It would suit RTÉ to claim as Fuzzy Clam does that a few hundred are LW listeners in Britain. That is a barefaced lie and I would love to see the research proving that claim.

I'd be curious to see the evidence to the contrary.

Banjoxed · 23-09-2016 5:59pm

Graham wrote: »

I'd be curious to see the evidence to the contrary.

The report is linked here: http://www.irishinbritain.org/campaigns/rt

Stasi 2.0 · 23-09-2016 6:07pm

ghostdancer wrote: »

so yet another reason why the OP and the LW defenders are talking rubbish really.

According to someone who obviously hasnt read the post they are quoting letalone the rest of the thread.

Graham · 23-09-2016 6:09pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

The report is linked here: http://www.irishinbritain.org/campaigns/rt

In fairness all that report really shows is that 73% of 3000 people claim to listen to RTE Radio LW on a daily basis. 40% of those 3000 already state that also access radio stations using a computer or laptop.

The reality is, that is a few hundred listeners.

Stasi 2.0 · 23-09-2016 6:19pm

Graham wrote: »

In fairness all that report really shows is that 73% of 3000 people claim to listen to RTE Radio LW on a daily basis. 40% of those 3000 already state that also access radio stations using a computer or laptop.

Maybe they listen online at home and on LW while driving.

The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Fuzzy Clam · 23-09-2016 6:26pm

Stasi 2.0 wrote:

Maybe they listen online at home and on LW while driving.

The act does not stipulate that they should have access to RTE while on the move.

Graham · 23-09-2016 6:28pm

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

Maybe they listen online at home and on LW while driving.

The two are nit necessarily mutually exclusive.

I didn't suggest they were but it dilutes the poor/elderly/technophobic/expensive-internet justification quite significantly.

Charles Babbage · 23-09-2016 6:29pm

It isn't clear the LW is the most wasted expenditure. I think it is a legitimate objective that RTE radio should be capable of reception everywhere in the island of Ireland, without reference to the capabilities of the Internet thereabouts. A definite touch of "I'm alright jack" about some of the comments here.

Graham · 23-09-2016 6:32pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

It isn't clear the LW is the most wasted expenditure.

I don't think anyone suggested it was the 'most wasted' expenditure.

Walter2016 · 23-09-2016 6:34pm

A few years ago and before this Internet thingy was about, RTE broadcast a pop music station Atlantic 252.

There wasn't any outcry from anyone back then and I don't think lw has seen an increase in use since.

So no-one missed it before but they will all miss it now???

Doesn't make sense and as said before, Internet listening is used by most diaspora.

marno21 · 23-09-2016 7:13pm

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

In much of County Antrim RTE's FM signal is poor to non existent. However in parts of Co. Derry its often stronger than the BBC or local stations

RTE's transmitter for Derry city and surroundings is located very close to the BBC transmitter for Derry (Holywell Hill for RTE and Sheriff's Mountain for BBC).

Most of Co. Antrim is a long distance from the border, and as a result, signal from Clermont Carn in Co. Louth is quite weak.

Stasi 2.0 · 24-09-2016 12:16am

marno21 wrote: »

RTE's transmitter for Derry city and surroundings is located very close to the BBC transmitter for Derry (Holywell Hill for RTE and Sheriff's Mountain for BBC).

Most of Co. Antrim is a long distance from the border, and as a result, signal from Clermont Carn in Co. Louth is quite weak.

Was thinking more of the county where in places the strongest signal is from Truskmore (quite some distance away) in parts of South Fermanagh the. BBC signal is also surprisingly weak but RTE blasts in.

In many parts of Belfast RTE on FM is fairly hopeless. (Most of Antrim town is okish probably due to Lough Neagh) it disappears completely well before one hits Larne so most of Co Antrim has to rely on Longwave for mobile/portable listening. Parts of North Down have the same problem.

savelongwave · 24-09-2016 1:11am

Some issues raised already re RTE gaining access to UK DAB.

1) The UK does not want competition and post Brexit does one think things will change ?

2) When a pirate jammed out RTE MW the authorities shut it down and then licensed Spectrum to continue the wipe out of RTE between the M25 in London.

3) RTE's attempt in Jan 2015 to access UK DAB Net 2 failed even though there wasn't an initial rush to take up capacity.

4) Manchester mini DAB was more recently denied access to RTE

5) A new DAB receiver is unaffordable for thousands of LW listeners and coverage is patchy with many drop outs.

6) DAB is not available to small scale stations and would mean loss of ownership of their networks to larger operators.

That proves we must avoid gate keepers and continue service on LW if we want to listen on the move or serve our older Diaspora and the many who enjoy radio free of stuttering drop outs when streams fail.
No way is internet free. For every stream there must be extra capacity at the server. Broadcast radio is the most efficient method of delivering content being a one to many rather than a one to one service like the internet.
LW can carry digital (DRM) of FM quality and the LW 252 network is already upgraded. But as in the the early days of DAB receivers were expensive and energy hungry. This is changing with the development of software defined radios - SDR's. that work on open platforms such as the Samsungs Galaxy and demonstrated at this years Amsterdam media show

end of the road · 24-09-2016 4:01am

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

You tell me.

no you tell us. you made the claim about the listenership not justifying the costs, so it's up to you to back it up

david23 · 24-09-2016 9:31am

savelongwave wrote: »

Some issues raised already re RTE gaining access to UK DAB.

1) The UK does not want competition and post Brexit does one think things will change ?

2) When a pirate jammed out RTE MW the authorities shut it down and then licensed Spectrum to continue the wipe out of RTE between the M25 in London.

3) RTE's attempt in Jan 2015 to access UK DAB Net 2 failed even though there wasn't an initial rush to take up capacity.

4) Manchester mini DAB was more recently denied access to RTE

5) A new DAB receiver is unaffordable for thousands of LW listeners and coverage is patchy with many drop outs.

6) DAB is not available to small scale stations and would mean loss of ownership of their networks to larger operators.

That proves we must avoid gate keepers and continue service on LW if we want to listen on the move or serve our older Diaspora and the many who enjoy radio free of stuttering drop outs when streams fail.
No way is internet free. For every stream there must be extra capacity at the server. Broadcast radio is the most efficient method of delivering content being a one to many rather than a one to one service like the internet.
LW can carry digital (DRM) of FM quality and the LW 252 network is already upgraded. But as in the the early days of DAB receivers were expensive and energy hungry. This is changing with the development of software defined radios - SDR's. that work on open platforms such as the Samsungs Galaxy and demonstrated at this years Amsterdam media show

RTE's January 2015 bid to be on UK national DAB failed because they were part of the losing (L2D) bid for the licence. There were only two bidders, the licence was awarded to the Sound Digital group, and RTE were not part of their line up.

There are two empty slots available on the national Digital 1 DAB multiplex in the UK, following the departure of Planet Rock, Absolute 80s & Premier Christian Radio (Capital has taken one of them). This multiplex reaches 91% of the UK population, and RTE could lease capacity on this multiplex by negotiating a price with Digital 1's owners Arqiva.

Nobody outside of RTE knows what happened with the Manchester mini-mux (which is only a low power trial service). RTE were part of the proposed line up but never joined.

In the UK DAB receivers are now selling for 20 pounds upwards. John Lewis has just launched an own brand kitchen radio for 40 pounds.

DAB is available to small scale stations in the UK on the new mini muxes, using open source software. There are ten of these being trialled, and legislation for full licences is due to be on the statute book next year.

The Future of Longwave 252kHz (RTE Radio 1)

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