The Future of Longwave 252kHz (RTE Radio 1)

Banjoxed

david23 wrote: »

RTE's January 2015 bid to be on UK national DAB failed because they were part of the losing (L2D) bid for the licence. There were only two bidders, the licence was awarded to the Sound Digital group, and RTE were not part of their line up.

There are two empty slots available on the national Digital 1 DAB multiplex in the UK, following the departure of Planet Rock, Absolute 80s & Premier Christian Radio (Capital has taken one of them). This multiplex reaches 91% of the UK population, and RTE could lease capacity on this multiplex by negotiating a price with Digital 1's owners Arqiva.

Nobody outside of RTE knows what happened with the Manchester mini-mux (which is only a low power trial service). RTE were part of the proposed line up but never joined.

In the UK DAB receivers are now selling for 20 pounds upwards. John Lewis has just launched an own brand kitchen radio for 40 pounds.

DAB is available to small scale stations in the UK on the new mini muxes, using open source software. There are ten of these being trialled, and legislation for full licences is due to be on the statute book next year.

In the longer term that would be the way to go, but RTÉ's ineffectiveness on getting on any UK multiplex militates against it. I believe that if RTÉ had the cop-op to accept the BBC's offer of free placing on Irish DAB then getting RTÉ on to one of the UK national DAB multiplexes wouldn't have been an issue.

A fair swap and low or no cost? That would pay for a few more taxis in and out of Montrose, and would give Irish DAB a selling point, which frankly it doesn't have right now.

Fuzzy Clam

end of the road wrote: »

no you tell us. you made the claim about the listenership not justifying the costs, so it's up to you to back it up

Ok. I'll feed the troll. It's not up to me to supply any figures about DAB. Why would it be?
The person who asked the question knows that these figure's aren't available to us which is why they asked the question.
However, going by the messages I've seen on various forums, the listenership figures must be considerably more than for 252. I guess that since they are using sites shared with other RTE services, the cost will be lower than the LW facility.

All of which is irrelevant anyway. Start a new thread if you want to discuss the justify the existence of DAB.

Fuzzy Clam

savelongwave wrote: »

LW can carry digital (DRM) of FM quality and the LW 252 network is already upgraded. But as in the the early days of DAB receivers were expensive and energy hungry. This is changing with the development of software defined radios - SDR's. that work on open platforms such as the Samsungs Galaxy and demonstrated at this years Amsterdam media show

A bit of a spurious argument really.
Are you suggesting that these people, who we are informed cannot even afford a DAB radio and are not tech savvy enough to use internet radio, should listen to RTE via DRM?
And do you believe the SNR required for reliable DRM reception will be good enough in the remoter parts of Ireland and in GB, in particular London?
Not a chance, even on 261 KHz the signal in London won't be adequate.

Stasi 2.0

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

A bit of a spurious argument really. Are you suggesting that these people, who we are informed cannot even afford a DAB radio te.

Nobodys suggested that but what would be the point ?

RTE is not available on DAB anywhere in Mainland Britain, Continental Europe most of Northern Ireland and around half of the Republic.

A DAB radio isint going to help anyone hear RTE radio one.

DAB is a red herring. This thread is about longwave.

Logue no2

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

A bit of a spurious argument really.
Are you suggesting that these people, who we are informed cannot even afford a DAB radio and are not tech savvy enough to use internet radio, should listen to RTE via DRM?
And do you believe the SNR required for reliable DRM reception will be good enough in the remoter parts of Ireland and in GB, in particular London?
Not a chance, even on 261 KHz the signal in London won't be adequate.

I can answer that point. I took part in the DRM tests on 252 and received it clearly at my home in NW London using a very deaf Coding Technologies receiver attached to my laptop. I used a simple length of bell wire as the antenna and picked up the signal loud and clear despite the signal being much weaker and interfered with by Algeria late at night.

So yes DRM would work far better than Analogue LW even in weak spots like London.

Fuzzy Clam

Odd that. I know several people who had very poor results, both in and around London and in Ireland.
You were lucky I guess.
Its also odd that you say reception at night is weaker.
As I'm sure you know, LW is stronger and carries further at night due to less absorbsion by the D layer.
????

As a matter of interest , at what times did you receive it?

wnolan1992

IMO, the "elderly people can't use new technology!" argument is null and void. They don't because there's an alternative. Take away the alternative, they'll adapt. If my 88 year old grandmother who never used a mobile phone or computer was able to learn to use Sky+ to watch TV after the analogue switch off, anyone should be capable of learning to tune a DAB radio, or listen via an app. As said earlier in the thread, a €50 smart phone and €20 a month to 3 will get you unlimited data. Phone can be setup in a corner, plugged in so it never switches off, giant RTE Player app logo in the middle of the screen, you're never more than 3-4 presses away from hearing what you want. Elderly people are not stupid. They have the capacity to learn these things, there is just no incentive while the comfortable alternative exists.

Therefore, IMO, the only argument that stands up here is coverage. I'd imagine a lot of the people listening to LW are in areas where broadband/3G/4G coverage is also pretty patchy. It would be interesting to have independent statistics as to how many people listen in to service, then you could weigh up whether or not it's value for money. As is, we're all just pissing in the dark because there could be 100,000 people listening, there could be 100. And of those listening, 99% might have a viable alternative, or 1%.

Banjoxed

wnolan1992 wrote: »

IMO, the "elderly people can't use new technology!" argument is null and void. They don't because there's an alternative. Take away the alternative, they'll adapt. If my 88 year old grandmother who never used a mobile phone or computer was able to learn to use Sky+ to watch TV after the analogue switch off, anyone should be capable of learning to tune a DAB radio, or listen via an app. As said earlier in the thread, a €50 smart phone and €20 a month to 3 will get you unlimited data. Phone can be setup in a corner, plugged in so it never switches off, giant RTE Player app logo in the middle of the screen, you're never more than 3-4 presses away from hearing what you want. Elderly people are not stupid. They have the capacity to learn these things, there is just no incentive while the comfortable alternative exists.

Therefore, IMO, the only argument that stands up here is coverage. I'd imagine a lot of the people listening to LW are in areas where broadband/3G/4G coverage is also pretty patchy. It would be interesting to have independent statistics as to how many people listen in to service, then you could weigh up whether or not it's value for money. As is, we're all just pissing in the dark because there could be 100,000 people listening, there could be 100. And of those listening, 99% might have a viable alternative, or 1%.

RTÉ and BBC do a deal swapping free DAB access into each other's networks, problem effectively solved.

Stasi 2.0

All this discussion about what elderly people are or are not capable of doing is another red herring.

We've already established that listenership to 252KHz is not the sole preserve of the elderly.

wnolan1992

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

All this discussion about what elderly people are or are not capable of doing is another red herring.

We've already established that listenership to 252KHz is not the sole preserve of the elderly.

Agreed, hence the need to actually analyse how many people cannot receive the service by other means.
For instance, how much would the money spent on LW benefit the DAB or FM network? Eliminate FM blackspots by pumping the money saved from switching off LW into more FM transmitters would be my suggestion anyway.

Stasi 2.0

wnolan1992 wrote: »

Eliminate FM blackspots by pumping the money saved from switching off LW into more FM transmitters would be my suggestion anyway.

To build and operate enough FM transmitters to cover all of Northern Ireland AND Mainland Britain (not to mention the places on the continent which can receive 252) Even if (and its a massive "if") the UK authorities would agree to it would cost more than ALL RTE's existing transmission platforms and make the cost of the longwave service look like absolute peanuts.

Longwave is surprisingly cost effective at covering a large area.

Ursus Horribilis

Banjoxed wrote: »

RTÉ and BBC do a deal swapping free DAB access into each other's networks, problem effectively solved.

RTÉ's DAB coverage is pitiful in Ireland. It wouldn't be much of a deal for the BBC even if the idea was a runner.

Banjoxed

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

RTÉ's DAB coverage is pitiful in Ireland. It wouldn't be much of a deal for the BBC even if the idea was a runner.

2rn's DAB suffers from a chicken and egg like problem - RTÉ Gold isn't going to drive demand for DAB radios in the Republic, hence stalled coverage. BBC Radio 5 live would - but RTÉ seemingly aren't keen to encourage that. Negotiating free coverage for RTÉ Radio in the UK as a swap would be ideal, probably won't happen knowing the hidebound nature of RTÉ's attitudes - but no harm in putting the suggestion out there.

Fuzzy Clam

Yes, just ask Atlantic 252. ;-)

Oh hang on..........

Edit.
Its not cost effective if its only being listened to by a few hundred people. Even if its a few thousand, as suggested by the survey, its still not cost effective.

2nd edit
What's the population of an average small town in Ireland? A few thousand?? If it cost 250,000 to service a radio transmitter for that town it would be considered not good value. An FM transmitter to service a much larger area costs a good deal less.

Walter2016

Forget about DAB - its a white elephant. It will hang about, but it has been superceded by internet.

Anyone who's really interested in listening to irish radio whilst abroad will choose Internet due to the choice available.

And yes elderly "vulnerable" people can access the Internet. Funny how its just younger people with an issue that call the elderly "vulnerable" - my 87 year old mother would clobber someone who dared to call her that. - She Skypes my sister, uses email daily and has her own netflix club with other 80+ "vulnerables".

As before, it wasn't missed when it was Atlantic 252 and that was before internet! so why the sudden interest?

Political!

Banjoxed

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Ok. I'll feed the troll. It's not up to me to supply any figures about DAB. Why would it be?
The person who asked the question knows that these figure's aren't available to us which is why they asked the question.

I don't know. I'm a recently former family carer living in Donegal. You seem to have pulled figures out of your bum regarding LW listenership and I challenged you on that.

Banjoxed

Walter2016 wrote: »

Forget about DAB - its a white elephant. It will hang about, but it has been superceded by internet.

Anyone who's really interested in listening to irish radio whilst abroad will choose Internet due to the choice available.

And yes elderly "vulnerable" people can access the Internet. Funny how its just younger people with an issue that call the elderly "vulnerable" - my 87 year old mother would clobber someone who dared to call her that. - She Skypes my sister, uses email daily and has her own netflix club with other 80+ "vulnerables".

As before, it wasn't missed when it was Atlantic 252 and that was before internet! so why the sudden interest?

Political!

Not everyone has the money to pay for an uncapped internet sub and the tech necessary. If that is a political position then may I offer you and the comfortable people with the Netflix subs some more cake?

Fuzzy Clam

Banjoxed wrote:

I don't know. I'm a recently former family carer living in Donegal. You seem to have pulled figures out of your bum regarding LW listenership and I challenged you on that.

No, you didn't challenge me on that. You asked me what the figures are for the DAB transmitters.
I didn't "pull figures out of my bum" as you so eloquently put it.
The figures regarding the costs of maintaining 252 are freely available. The listener figures were what sources in the industry believed. Even if the survey is to be believed, listeners to 252 would still be only in the low 1000's.

end of the road

Walter2016 wrote: »

Forget about DAB - its a white elephant. It will hang about, but it has been superceded by internet.

Anyone who's really interested in listening to irish radio whilst abroad will choose Internet due to the choice available.

And yes elderly "vulnerable" people can access the Internet. Funny how its just younger people with an issue that call the elderly "vulnerable" - my 87 year old mother would clobber someone who dared to call her that. - She Skypes my sister, uses email daily and has her own netflix club with other 80+ "vulnerables".

As before, it wasn't missed when it was Atlantic 252 and that was before internet! so why the sudden interest?

Political!

and? just because some elderly can and are able to grasp whatever doesn't mean others can and do. not their fault but it's life, some find things easier or more difficult then others. therefore your anecdotal story really means nothing.

Banjoxed

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

No, you didn't challenge me on that. You asked me what the figures are for the DAB transmitters.
I didn't "pull figures out of my bum" as you so eloquently put it.
The figures regarding the costs of maintaining 252 are freely available. The listener figures were what sources in the industry believed. Even if the survey is to be believed, listeners to 252 would still be only in the low 1000's.

Interesting. So "the industry" looked into its heart, if you prefer, and the listening figures for LW252, and especially those from outside the 26 counties, floated magically into their view. That would explain the irritation that contrary reports seem to have caused.

Fuzzy Clam

Hey, if you can supply us with the figures to contradict me, I'm all ears.
The survey that was linked to earlier suggests that the listenrship in the UK to 252 is less than 3000. It Ireland it may be a few hundred.
If you have a more reliable source for the figures, please share.

Fuzzy Clam

Banjoxed wrote:

and especially those from outside the 26 counties, floated magically into their view.

Yes, the survey that was carried out that put the listeners at less than 3000.
Have you overlooked that?

Stasi 2.0

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Atlantic 252. ;-).

A commercial radio station aimed at the UK which loct audience to newly established more local stations. Not a valid comparison

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

An FM transmitter to service a much larger area costs a good deal less.

There's not an FM transmitter in the world which can service an area as large as a single longwave transmitter. It takes dozens of FM transmitters to serve Ireland alone.

the survey that was carried out that put the listeners at less than 3000

The only surveys into 252 listenership have covered the Republic or Ireland and among Irish expats in mainland Britain. None covering Northern Ireland, Continental Europe or non-Irish listeners

Banjoxed

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Yes, the survey that was carried out that put the listeners at less than 3000.
Have you overlooked that?

Noreen Bowden hasn't. http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/generation-emigration/rt%C3%A9-longwave-radio-a-proven-lifeline-for-elderly-irish-in-britain-1.2678455?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Walter2016

None of the cheerleaders have explained how there was no issue when 252 was a commercial pop station which was before the age of internet?

Stasi 2.0

Walter2016 wrote: »

None of the cheerleaders have explained how there was no issue when 252 was a commercial pop station which was before the age of internet?

Back then RTE was available on medium wave. 252 was a replacement service when MW was scrapped.

Fuzzy Clam

Stasi 2.0 wrote:

A commercial radio station aimed at the UK which loct audience to newly established more local stations. Not a valid comparison

It is a valid comparison. LW was losing listeners. More so now.

Fuzzy Clam

Stasi 2.0 wrote:

There's not an FM transmitter in the world which can service an area as large as a single longwave transmitter. It takes dozens of FM transmitters to serve Ireland alone.

Oh ffs . Its the number of listeners that's the issue.
This is getting stupid now.

If you really have no idea what your talking about, please don't reply.

Stasi 2.0

It was a commercial radio station which lost market share to more local market entrants -just like Radio Luxembourg its parent company. Hardly a valid comparison with a national "public service" broadcaster

If you really have no idea what your talking about, please don't reply.

From a poster who thinks Its possible to cover the UK, Ireland, Belgium and Holland with a single FM transmitter ?

Banjoxed

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

Back then RTE was available on medium wave. 252 was a replacement service when MW was scrapped.

Indeed. My earliest memories of radio in London in the late 1960s was of RTE Radio on MW530 from Athlone.