The Future of Longwave 252kHz (RTE Radio 1)

Fuzzy Clam

Stasi 2.0 wrote:

From a poster who thinks Its possible to cover the UK, Ireland, Belgium and Holland with a single FM transmitter ?

What the **** are you talking about?
I've started to realise that your just a troll as well.

Fuzzy Clam

Stasi 2.0 wrote:

It was a commercial radio station which lost market share to more local market entrants -just like Radio Luxembourg its parent company. Hardly a valid comparison with a national "public service" broadcaster

Your hilarious stasi. People stopped listening to LW.

Stasi 2.0

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

What the **** are you talking about?
I've started to realise that your just a troll as well.

You suggested RTE could broadcast on FM to those currently served by 252 and I pointed out that the cost of doing so would be prohibitive (and that's not even taking into account the considerable regulatory and technical barriers involved) If you think I'm trolling take it up with the mods -otherwise try and be civil.

Your hilarious stasi.

Sure why are you responding to a "troll" ?

Fuzzy Clam

Banjoxed wrote:

Indeed. My earliest memories of radio in London in the late 1960s was of RTE Radio on MW530 from Athlone.

I guess you now listen on FM.

Banjoxed

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

I guess you now listen on FM.

I'm in Donegal and travel to Edinburgh and London. FM while I'm in coverage, 252 when I'm not in FM coverage.

Stasi 2.0

Banjoxed wrote: »

252 when I'm not in FM coverage.

What's RTE FM coverage like in London

Banjoxed

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

What's RTE FM coverage like in London

Well, quite.

my3cents

Sunday tomorrow and we don't bother with the Archers omnibus and some other BBC Radio 4 LW stuff on Sundays so its slide the dial over to 252 LW for the morning. Can't get RTE on FM so its LW or nothing, certainly not putting on the satellite TV or a computer to listen to RTE of a morning, which leads me on to this crap I keep reading about listening on the internet. I don't want to be running a computer and sound system to listen to the RADIO and I really don't want to be listening to the RADIO on a mobile phone with a earphone stuck in my ear I just want to listen to it on a RADIO. A few watts of electric usage or battery and a user can listen to LW with a RADIO but listening to it with a mobile phone or the internet is just not the same. If the radio can't get LW anymore I won't be listening to anything on RTE.

kleefarr

my3cents wrote: »

The UK! I listen to BBC Radio 4 on LW in Ireland most of the time.

http://www.radioplayer.co.uk/

Logue no2

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Odd that. I know several people who had very poor results, both in and around London and in Ireland.
You were lucky I guess.
Its also odd that you say reception at night is weaker.
As I'm sure you know, LW is stronger and carries further at night due to less absorbsion by the D layer.
????

As a matter of interest , at what times did you receive it?

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Odd that. I know several people who had very poor results, both in and around London and in Ireland.
You were lucky I guess.
Its also odd that you say reception at night is weaker.
As I'm sure you know, LW is stronger and carries further at night due to less absorbsion by the D layer.
????

As a matter of interest , at what times did you receive it?

Ok. I'm going to explain this as clearly as possible without getting too technical, as I suspect you don't have a huge knowledge of how radio signals are generated and the properties of the various broadcast bands.

Firstly it is impossible to replace 252 with either a single FM or DAB transmitter. VHF Band 2 (FM) and VHF Band 3 (DAB) generally don't travel much more than 100 miles from their transmission sites due to the fact that the Ionosphere above the earth does not refract (bounce) these signals. Therefore it would be technically impossible to broadcast a single FM or DAB station from Ireland that could be reliably received in the whole of Britain. Of course there is the issue of Sporadic E and tropospheric ducting that extends reception at times of high weather pressure but these are not frequent occurrences so to build such a transmitter would be technically impossible. Ask your friendly local radio experimenter!

On the other hand, signals in the AM broadcast bands can bounce off the ionosphere at night and reception is extended. You asked why I claimed Radio 1 was weaker at night. Here's why.

RTÉ and Atlantic before them always reduced the transmitter power at night. This was a licencing requirement in order to reduce interference to Radio Algeria Chaine 3, also broadcasting on 252. Originally Algeria used 500kw of power but now uses 1500kw in the daytime and 750kw at night.

RTÉ Radio 1 was broadcast at 300kw in the daytime and 150kw at night. This meant for me in London that Algeria used to blot out RTÉ at nighttimes. That was when the signal from RTÉ was at full power. What I found with the DRM signals from RTÉ was that although Algeria was quite audible on analogue AM, the RTÉ DRM signal could still break through.

The RTÉ DRM tests went out at different times. I did get good daytime reception as well and even on the Morphy Richards DAB portable, which was notoriously difficult to feed with a good enough signal.

Of course RTÉ have been broadcasting to Britain since 1926, and especially so since 1932 when the famous Athlone station came on the air. 252 only carried Radio 1 after Atlantic and TeamTalk radio closed, and once 252 was established the 531m frequency from Tullamore (successor to Athlone) was closed.

Banjoxed suggests Radio 1 could be on UK DAB. That would be nice but as we have seen from the Manchester Debacle RTÉ seem to struggle to get the UK regulators to allow them on the air in such a relatively small way. Imagine the difficulties if not impossibilities of getting RTÉ on national UK DAB.

It's far better for RTÉ to control their own broadcasts. They hold a licence to broadcast Radio 1 on 252 at 300kw daytime and 150kw at night. It's technically possible for a DRM and analogue signal to go out at the same time too.

Fuzzy Clam you seem interested in Radio, can I make a friendly suggestion to find out where your local radio club is and take out an Amateur Radio licence. You will make many new friends and will gain a clear understanding how radio works.

You won't regret it!

my3cents

kleefarr wrote: »

http://www.radioplayer.co.uk/

Thanks but that misses the point that I can wake up to Radio 4 LW on a Roberts clock radio and can listen to it all day on another LW radio. My main computer burns about 100W to connect me to the the same thing a small and portable unit can do while burning less than 5W.

My internet connection is a little more complicated than most and is running 24/7 but I still don't want to listen in one room on the internet I want to listen in any room I'm in and often outside in the garden on a Radio. One simple low powered device that tunes into a radio signal is all I need and the way I'd prefer to listen to the Radio.

I really don't want to listen on a system that is using 20 times more electricity than it needs or one that needs charging up everyday. A radio is a simple household item and listening to the radio doesn't need to be made any more complicated than switching on errr a radio.

I'm here now connecting to the internet and posting this from a netbook (not my main computer) because I still like to use Boards.ie with a full keyboard available to me and not a tiny touch screen . Using Boards.ie is easier for me with a computer with a keyboard in the same way to listening to the radio is easier with a radio.

Graham

my3cents wrote: »

I'm here now connecting to the internet and posting this from a netbook (not my main computer) because I still like to use Boards.ie with a full keyboard available to me and not a tiny touch screen . Using Boards.ie is easier for me with a computer with a keyboard in the same way to listening to the radio is easier with a radio.

That's interesting but I'm not convinced any of it justifies an annual 6 figure spend by RTE.

savelongwave

Thanks Logue No2 and My3cents

Like others I enjoy BBC Radio 4 on my pocket sized Roberts Sports running for week on two AA batteries.
Useful in the car or the park or during the night under the pillow may I say.

I feel the younger Bloggers are out of touch with what the older generation take for granted.

I listened to 567 MW in London in the late 50's.
Later Tullamore boosted that service to 500kW from the 100kW that Athlone used. Senders Free Berlin was a cochannel problem at night but that station is now closed.
An unwritten understanding between regulatory authorities was abandoned when RTE was jammed by Spectrum using 558kHz.
Its an accepted fact that one does not use an adjacent channel in planning transmitter coverage.
In fairness to RTE they were prepared to swap one of their frequencies with the agreement of the UK as a solution but that wasnt a runner.
The UK could have used the Spectrum allocation in Birmingham or elsewhere along the east cost without any problem where the Tullamore signal was stronger.

Logue no2

Graham wrote: »

That's interesting but I'm not convinced any of it justifies an annual 6 figure spend by RTE.

RTE spent nearly half a million euro on taxis alone last year. Nearly double the LW transmission costs.

Graham

Logue no2 wrote: »

RTE spent nearly half a million euro on taxis alone last year. Nearly double the LW transmission costs.

If any of that transport costs is unnecessary it should also be cut.

I'm not sure 'but they use taxis' is any more of a justification for keeping long wave than my3cents not wanting to use his laptop.

end of the road

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

What the **** are you talking about?
I've started to realise that your just a troll as well.

debunking your "it is what it is because i said so" posts isn't trolling i'm afraid.

Logue no2

Graham wrote: »

If any of that transport costs is unnecessary it should also be cut.

I'm not sure 'but they use taxis' is any more of a justification for keeping long wave than my3cents not wanting to use his laptop.

Let's be clear Graham. The 252 service isnt aimed at you if you live in range of RTE's FM transmissions. I don't and many hundreds of thousands of Irish abroad don't either.

Graham

Logue no2 wrote: »

Let's be clear Graham. The 252 service isnt aimed at you if you live in range of RTE's FM transmissions. I don't and many hundreds of thousands of Irish abroad don't either.

I don't doubt that you are right, it's just unfortunate that nowhere near enough of those 'hundreds of thousands' listen to RTE LW in the volumes required to make it commercially viable/sustainable.

Logue no2

Graham wrote: »

I don't doubt that you are right, it's just unfortunate that nowhere near enough of those 'hundreds of thousands' listen to RTE LW in the volumes required to make it commercially viable/sustainable.

If everything broadcast had to be commercially viable as you put it then we not have Raidio na Gaeltachta or TG4. RTÉ aren't a commercial broadcaster, they are a public service broadcaster with a unique remit to serve the Irish abroad.

Have you read the Broadcasting Act 2009? It doesn't demand that RTÉ provide a commercially justifiable service to the Irish abroad, just a service.

If RTÉ took the Act seriously we wouldn't be having this debate.

end of the road

Graham wrote: »

I don't doubt that you are right, it's just unfortunate that nowhere near enough of those 'hundreds of thousands' listen to RTE LW in the volumes required to make it commercially viable/sustainable.

well it's no different to much of what rte provide, which isn't commercially viable but socially and educationally necessary. 252 is socially necessary to bring a vital link from the motherland to the uk and further, so the irish abroad can have a link to the motherland of eire, to home.

Logue no2

Graham wrote: »

I don't doubt that you are right, it's just unfortunate that nowhere near enough of those 'hundreds of thousands' listen to RTE LW in the volumes required to make it commercially viable/sustainable.

Following on from your "commercially justifiable" demand, perhaps you could ask RTÉ how much it costs them to transmit the several hidden testcard channels on Saorview. The current Saorview service could be easily transmitted on one Multiplex rather than two, saving far more than the cost of LW or those taxis. Furthermore how much does the RTÉ DAB service cost to transmit to one portion of the country and how many listeners does it have? Far less than LW and a far smaller impact I'll guess.

Logue no2

Graham wrote: »

I don't doubt that you are right, it's just unfortunate that nowhere near enough of those 'hundreds of thousands' listen to RTE LW in the volumes required to make it commercially viable/sustainable.

Oh and while I'm at it. Saorsat. Developed by RTÉ at great expense to explicitly stop people like me watching free to air satellite tv from Ireland. Viewership said to be in the low hundreds. Should RTÉ bin that?

Graham

OK, take a step back for a minute.

I'm assuming this thread is an attempt to drum up support for the campaign to retain the LW broadcast. A decision that by all accounts has already been made.

Now, I can understand completely why anyone that currently avails of the LW service is going to be peeved at its loss. Particularly those few people that have no other means to access the RTE broadcasts. I can absolutely understand why there's a campaign to retain the service and for what it's worth, I wouldn't begrudge the quarter of a million a year it costs to keep it running.

But, and this is the big but. My ambivalence is not going to help the campaign and from the looks of this thread the campaign has garnered practically zero additional support. Arguing the broadcasting act is doing zilch to help. Telling me you prefer to listen on the radio to save 0.001kw of energy does nothing. Debating the merits of DAB, nada. Saorsat, taxi-fares, nope, nothing.

So with all that out of the way, how are you going to persuade people to support the campaign to keep LW? This approach isn't it.

lertsnim

Logue no2 wrote: »

Oh and while I'm at it. Saorsat. Developed by RTÉ at great expense to explicitly stop people like me watching free to air satellite tv from Ireland. Viewership said to be in the low hundreds. Should RTÉ bin that?

Saorsat services licence fee payers in areas not covered by Saorview. It is a cheaper alternative to new transmitters in those areas. Of course you already know that. But let's ignore that so you can rant about RTÉ not providing you with a FTA television service in a foreign country. I know you are well aware how much that would cost.
What FTA services from Ireland did Saorsat stop you watching?

Banjoxed

lertsnim wrote: »

Saorsat services licence fee payers in areas not covered by Saorview. It is a cheaper alternative to new transmitters in those areas. Of course you already know that. But let's ignore that so you can rant about RTÉ not providing you with a FTA television service in a foreign country. I know you are well aware how much that would cost.
What FTA services from Ireland did Saorsat stop you watching?

So, reinventing the DSAT wheel with Saorsat, hidden testcard channels for no discernible reason on Saorview and double the LW bill on taxis alone are fine, but LW isn't. Fascinating.

marno21

my3cents,

Where do you live to say you have poor RTE FM reception?

Fuzzy Clam

Logue no2 wrote: »

Ok. I'm going to explain this as clearly as possible without getting too technical, as I suspect you don't have a huge knowledge of how radio signals are generated and the properties of the various broadcast bands.

Firstly it is impossible to replace 252 with either a single FM or DAB transmitter. VHF Band 2 (FM) and VHF Band 3 (DAB) generally don't travel much more than 100 miles from their transmission sites due to the fact that the Ionosphere above the earth does not refract (bounce) these signals. Therefore it would be technically impossible to broadcast a single FM or DAB station from Ireland that could be reliably received in the whole of Britain. Of course there is the issue of Sporadic E and tropospheric ducting that extends reception at times of high weather pressure but these are not frequent occurrences so to build such a transmitter would be technically impossible. Ask your friendly local radio experimenter!

On the other hand, signals in the AM broadcast bands can bounce off the ionosphere at night and reception is extended. You asked why I claimed Radio 1 was weaker at night. Here's why.

RTÉ and Atlantic before them always reduced the transmitter power at night. This was a licencing requirement in order to reduce interference to Radio Algeria Chaine 3, also broadcasting on 252. Originally Algeria used 500kw of power but now uses 1500kw in the daytime and 750kw at night.

RTÉ Radio 1 was broadcast at 300kw in the daytime and 150kw at night. This meant for me in London that Algeria used to blot out RTÉ at nighttimes. That was when the signal from RTÉ was at full power. What I found with the DRM signals from RTÉ was that although Algeria was quite audible on analogue AM, the RTÉ DRM signal could still break through.

The RTÉ DRM tests went out at different times. I did get good daytime reception as well and even on the Morphy Richards DAB portable, which was notoriously difficult to feed with a good enough signal.

Of course RTÉ have been broadcasting to Britain since 1926, and especially so since 1932 when the famous Athlone station came on the air. 252 only carried Radio 1 after Atlantic and TeamTalk radio closed, and once 252 was established the 531m frequency from Tullamore (successor to Athlone) was closed.

Banjoxed suggests Radio 1 could be on UK DAB. That would be nice but as we have seen from the Manchester Debacle RTÉ seem to struggle to get the UK regulators to allow them on the air in such a relatively small way. Imagine the difficulties if not impossibilities of getting RTÉ on national UK DAB.

It's far better for RTÉ to control their own broadcasts. They hold a licence to broadcast Radio 1 on 252 at 300kw daytime and 150kw at night. It's technically possible for a DRM and analogue signal to go out at the same time too.

Fuzzy Clam you seem interested in Radio, can I make a friendly suggestion to find out where your local radio club is and take out an Amateur Radio licence. You will make many new friends and will gain a clear understanding how radio works.

You won't regret it!

This post is brilliant!!!
The perfect example of somebody who is an radio amateur but who has no knowledge at all.
Your understanding of the English language is even poorer. No-on has suggested that a single FM or DAB signal will replace a LW into Britain.

If you don't even understand the basics of the argument here, there's little point in you even commenting.

Oh, and if you ever want a lesson on how radio waves and transmitters work, I'll be glad toi give you one, as you you don't seem to know anything about them.

I presume you're a person who has an interest in radio but didn't knew enough about it to get a job in it. Bless you. Still, you seem to know about the history of it, just not about how it works.
There's room for people like you I suppose.

Fuzzy Clam

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

What's RTE FM coverage like in London

RTE don't have to broadcast to London on FM.

Fuzzy Clam

end of the road wrote: »

debunking your "it is what it is because i said so" posts isn't trolling i'm afraid.

LOL. You didn't "debunk me".
You joined a thread simply to repeat somebody else's question. A question that is irrelevant. You have made no other input into the discussion. Your a troll.
Now go away.

Nonoperational

Mind blowing 14 pages. LW is done. Get the internet.