A boat full of carbs

ford2600 · 12-01-2016 3:41pm

AstraMonti wrote: »

I 've been experimenting with intermintent fasting the last week or so. My last meal is around 6-7 in the evening or I might have a protein drink around 11 after the gym. My next meal is around 1pm. The first couple of days my stomach was doing all sort of noises, but it has now started to slow down now and accepted that it's not going to get food until 1. Regardless, I already lost 3kg in a week (of course I also cut all the crap from christmas). I am not sure what I am trying to achieve here to be honest (apart from losing some unwanted kgs) and I don't know if I will keep doing for more than 2 weeks, because I still think I don't eat enough. But I don't know where to fit another meal at this stage.

Do you eat more for lunch and evening time?

I would have my first meal at lunchtime about 3/4 days per week. Irrespective of health it's just really convenient when driving with work, physical work and mornings that I cycle. I will feel more like food at lunchtime if I have breakfast that if I skip it, but even then a glass of water and I can easily wait for hours further without eating.

When lifting heavy weights I will always eat breakfast the following morning. Also after longer audax rides I'll generally add breakfast for a day or two after.

In saying that some of my post exercise meals would contain same amount of calories as many people's daily allowance! Adding fat makes it really easy.

AstraMonti · 13-01-2016 11:24am

ford2600 wrote: »

Do you eat more for lunch and evening time?

I wouldn't say so, it's normal portions, seems I am satisfied with the same amount of food. Which is really weird for me. Even on a strict lchf I had the need to munch something every so often.

ford2600 · 13-01-2016 11:33am

AstraMonti wrote: »

I wouldn't say so, it's normal portions, seems I am satisfied with the same amount of food. Which is really weird for me. Even on a strict lchf I had the need to munch something every so often.

Do you want my best attempt at Bro science?

AstraMonti · 13-01-2016 11:39am

Haha hit me!

ford2600 · 13-01-2016 11:47am

AstraMonti wrote: »

Haha hit me!

You put on a little fat over Xmas, say you went from 15% to 17% for arguments sake.

Your body is set to defend for 15%. Fasting in morning is allowing you to run primarily on fat, which your body is happy with; for now.

Once you drop a little fat, lower leptin levels will lead to lower metabolic rate and increased appetite until you stabilise at 15% again.

There is a load of other hormones involved and the brain and all kind of fancy receptors and you can get that full Internet diagnosis once you click on the premium link ðŸ˜€

AstraMonti · 13-01-2016 2:24pm

I had another explanation in mind, which was that the body slowed down since it's not expecting food that often, although that would mean that it would want more when food was available. I don't know, our body is weird

In other news, have you seen this documentary?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-m9ijPl1ok

AstraMonti · 26-01-2016 2:58pm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26795746

Does artificial light-at-night (ALAN) exposure contribute to the worldwide obesity pandemic?

CONCLUSION:
This study is the first population-level study that confirms the results of laboratory research and cohort studies in which ALAN was found to be a contributing factor to excessive body mass in humans.

AstraMonti · 17-03-2016 9:43am

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/76384972/Nokia_et_al-2016-The_Journal_of_Physiology%20exercise%20and%20brain%20development.pdf

Running title: Aerobic exercise promotes adult neurogenesis

MediaMan · 23-03-2016 12:27am

Just when you think you've got the cholesterol thing figured out, along comes another study...

'Good' cholesterol not always good, study suggests:
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-35775318

AstraMonti · 02-08-2016 8:41am

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2540540

Conclusions and Relevance High animal protein intake was positively associated with mortality and high plant protein intake was inversely associated with mortality, especially among individuals with at least 1 lifestyle risk factor. Substitution of plant protein for animal protein, especially that from processed red meat, was associated with lower mortality, suggesting the importance of protein source.

Queue dailymail: RED MEAT KILLS AND CAUSES CANCER.

ford2600 · 02-08-2016 9:23am

AstraMonti wrote: »

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2540540

Queue dailymail: RED MEAT KILLS AND CAUSES CANCER.

http://www.spanish-food.org/images/product-jamon-2.jpg

Just got a present of this, should I just throw it out now or go vegan after I eat it?

AstraMonti · 02-08-2016 9:31am

I can give you an address to throw this away if you want haha

rondog · 05-08-2016 12:53pm

ford2600

I have just skipped through this thread and found it very interesting.The bit you post about converting to fat from carbs as a source for endurance sports/cycling.

Can you give a brief description on how you made your body adapt to utilising fat instead of carbs?

How long did the transition take?
I experimented with this before half heartedly and was getting the Bonk at about 80KM and through sheer panic reached for an energy gel.
I wanted to properly try this out rather than my previous half ar*ed attempts.

ford2600 · 05-08-2016 1:30pm

rondog wrote: »

ford2600

I have just skipped through this thread and found it very interesting.The bit you post about converting to fat from carbs as a source for endurance sports/cycling.

Can you give a brief description on how you made your body adapt to utilising fat instead of carbs?

How long did the transition take?
I experimented with this before half heartedly and was getting the Bonk at about 80KM and through sheer panic reached for an energy gel.
I wanted to properly try this out rather than my previous half ar*ed attempts.

http://sigmanutrition.com/episode86/

That's good, it's a brilliant website in general.

From my amateur hour reading we use fat/glycogen all the time and fat adaptation just swings the balance more in favour of fat(we also can use other fuels but that's not here nor there!). I'd imagine Chris Froome is fat adapted to an extra ordinary degree probably without ever thinking about it much. I remember coming across research where one of primary difference between elite endurance athletes was the ability to utilize fat, the glycogen use was very similar but can't remember where.

In order to fat adapt the surest way is go keto, you then have no choice as the brain will fire up it's backup system in the absence of glucose. Even if you switched easily, keto is really hard to maintain in the modern world;your talking about weighing your non green veg ffs. You will aslo be slower less powerful all things being equal. (DR Louise Bourke has some research on the body down regulating it's use of glycogen in it's absence and presence of ketones) So if you want to have a fairly quality but not too restricted diet I'd be inclined to
*eat well, not necessarily hflc but, if you are going to eat a good percentage of carbs have them decent with plenty fibre, low gi etc etc. Good clean quality food with minimal sugar, processed foods
* try intermittent fasting, say one day a week when doing something sedentary. Whether any physiological changes happen or not(they probably will) it'll help you mentally when exercising fasted.
* start with a short spin and build up. My first spin was 30km I think. Bring an apple, the world champion of cycling foods, tastier than a banana and rugged as fcuk! A lot of it is in your head, sip water when you think you are hungry.
You will adapt slowly.
*If you feel miserable, eat. It's not a misery contest.
*If you are ever travelling use it as a chance to avoid airport, convenience a do a 24hr fast. If you are used to IF it's surprisingly easy

Edit: how long? I'd think within 4 weeks I was up to 100km. That's about 3 years ago. If doing a 100km ride now I often don't have money or any food and similar up to 130km.

Any longer and I'll eat something around 130km depending on pace/climbing.

I'm slower than I used to be but I don't do any speed work hiit work although that should change when I get my mtb sorted! I'd imagine if I trained the way I used I'd get back to my "fast" ceiling without any dietary changes.

BTW when you finished your fasted cycle carbon the fcuk up! At least a little. Carb backloading is the buzz word for that if you want to Google it. Fruit salad with cream followed by meat veg and spuds if you want to save yourself the hassle!

rondog · 05-08-2016 2:13pm

Great stuff-will have to read up on it.thanks

MediaMan · 31-10-2016 11:51pm

MSG may not be bad for us after all...

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-msg-got-a-bad-rap-flawed-science-and-xenophobia/

MediaMan · 23-12-2016 7:56pm

There's a lengthy extract from the book "The Case Against Sugar" by Gary Taubes at https://aeon.co/essays/sugar-is-a-toxic-agent-that-creates-conditions-for-disease.

The most interesting aspect for me was that German and Austrian researchers were producing solid arguments that hormone regulation, specifically of insulin, was the root cause of obesity. World events cause that to change and then the American model, that obesity is caused by eating too much food, emerged.

By 1930, Julius Bauer of the University of Vienna – the ‘noted Vienna authority on internal diseases’, as The New York Times called him – had taken up von Bergmann’s ideas, arguing that obesity had to result from a dysregulation of the biological factors that normally work to keep fat accumulation under check. Bauer argued that fat cells are clearly being driven by these factors to hoard excessive calories as fat, and this in turn would deprive the rest of the body of the energy it needed to thrive. In this hormonal/regulatory conception, excessive fat-accumulation causes hunger and physical inactivity, not the other way around.

...

In 1940, when Hugo Rony, an endocrinologist at Northwestern University in Chicago, published the first academic treatise written on obesity in the US, he asserted that the hormonal/regulatory hypothesis was ‘more or less fully accepted’ by the European authorities.

And then it vanished. The German and Austrian medical-research community evaporated with the rise of Hitler, and the nexus of medical science shifted from Germany and Austria to the US, a nation not devastated by the war; the lingua franca of medical science shifted as well from German to English. With those shifts, arguably the best thinking of the era in medical science would no longer be read, nor would it be referenced. The conception of obesity as a hormonal regulatory disorder faded out of fashion.

ford2600 · 23-12-2016 11:41pm

MediaMan wrote: »

There's a lengthy extract from the book "The Case Against Sugar" by Gary Taubes at https://aeon.co/essays/sugar-is-a-toxic-agent-that-creates-conditions-for-disease.

The most interesting aspect for me was that German and Austrian researchers were producing solid arguments that hormone regulation, specifically of insulin, was the root cause of obesity. World events cause that to change and then the American model, that obesity is caused by eating too much food, emerged.

Discussion here of a study funded by Taubes's NuSi which doesn't really do much for insulin model (seemed a bit short to me but pretty heavyweight credentials with research team)

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ie/2016/07/nusi-funded-study-serves-up_6.html?m=1

Gueynet fairly hammered it here in a 2011 review

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ie/2011/08/carbohydrate-hypothesis-of-obesity.html

His own area of study on food reward and the role of leptin/hypothalamus is pretty interesting

http://boingboing.net/2012/03/09/seduced-by-food-obesity-and-t.html

Signal_ rabbit · 09-11-2017 8:05pm

I arrived at this thread as I’ve just started thE LCHF diet. I spent the last two hours reading the entire thread. It’s very interesting.
My question is, out of all you guys who started the diet, how many of you have kept to it?

petethedrummer · 12-11-2017 11:29pm

Me.

In my case it's good for easy weight maintenance, raised mood levels, mental alertness, day long energy... blah blah blah... what the LCHF converts usually say.

Caveat: if you plan on competing to the best of your abilities at a sport that involves sprinting, you need glycogen in your muscles.

CramCycle · 13-11-2017 11:45pm

I didn't although I wish I had, my weight and mental alertness did go down. I used to get alot of free food in my old job and it was far easier to keep to the plan.

I am slowly working my way towards a low carb diet, as in what I really need to keep me ticking over rather than what people think they need which is way in excess of what is required. Hopefully back to a healthy diet by months end.

The key is a low carb rather than a no carb diet, which alot of online people seem to get confused with.

doozerie · 17-11-2017 11:08pm

I'm still on it. But I don't follow a "strict low-carb" diet, which from what I understand requires you to eat less than 20g carbs per day. In my case I generally average somewhere between 40g and 60g per day, and as much as 100g on days where I train (because of my added carb intake immediately after training).

I generally get weird looks when people learn that I eat low-carb. As CramCycle says, many people hear "low-carb" and assume "no-carb" and try to educate me on why I'm destroying my health, or something. And for many more people, LCHF is associated with weight loss and nothing else, and no-one would look at me and think I needed to lose weight so I get a different variety of weird looks in that case.

For me it has levelled out my energy spikes/drops during the day, has largely eliminated symptoms of IBS, fits well with fasted training rides (which I like a lot in themselves), etc. I still struggle with balancing it with racing though. For races I take one bottle with water in it and one bottle with energy drink, but I find I rarely drink the latter, most I've had during a race was less than 100ml I'd say.

Most of my races this year have been less than 1.5hrs though, and as hard as I found some of them to be, I didn't run out of fuel even with drinking no energy drink at all. My longest race was over 2 hours, I pushed myself hard from the gun on that one and although I got dropped in the last few kilometres I couldn't blame that on lack of fuel, I simply ripped my own legs off.

So I'm still trying to figure out where that tipping point is, the point at which my choice to not throw carbs down my neck during something as demanding as a race impacts negatively on my performance.

doozerie · 29-04-2018 11:51pm

I've only done a handful of races so far this year, it's not enough to answer my many questions about my diet, like that above of whether it's a bad choice for racing, but it gives me something to go on at least. Here is a brief breakdown of the longer of the races I've done in recent weeks:

* 103km, 757m climbing, 2h41m, 38.5kph avg speed
* 99km, 562m climbing, 2h25m, 40.9kph avg speed
* 75km, 394m climbing, 1h54m, 39.5kph avg speed

These were hard (for me) races, but I was competitive in all of them in the sense that I worked hard at the front for all or most of each race and was still in wth a chance of placing at the end. I finished in the top 20 in two of them and finished in the large front group in the other. So no placings at all, but enough to convince me that my nutrition during the races was not disastrous i.e. I reckon the limiting factor was me, not my nutrition.

The races were all 09h00 starts, and I had my regular breakfast (coffee, eggs, nuts, fruit - approx 9g carbs) a couple of hours before. During the races I ate nothing at all, but for two of them I had a single sip of energy drink (about 50ml, or approx 4g carbs) more out of curiosity than out of any sense of needing fuel (as I mentioned earlier, I'm still experimenting). Even that minimal intake of energy drink sat on my stomach each time, left me feeling a bit nauseous for a few minutes in fact, which might suggest I couldn't actually consume more even if I wanted to (which could obviously be a bad thing, depending on your point of view).

All of this is proof of nothing at all, but it does fuel (ha!) my scepticism of nutritional guides which advise consuming multiple grams of carbs per kilogram of body weight per hour (plus pre-loading with huge, for me, quantities of carbs both the day before the race and the morning of the race).

I'd actually love to believe that I'm shooting myself in the foot here, that if I were to massively increase my carb intake before and during races then my performance would improve massively too, but I really don't consider myself to have such untapped potential. I consider myself an average rider whose choice of nutrition is not holding him back, despite that nutrition flying in the face of conventional nutritional advice.

It's still early in the year though of course, plenty of time for me to be proved wrong yet, but so far so good.

ford2600 · 30-04-2018 9:19am

The thread that won't die!

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/h10-089

That's worth a read I think; seems you can keep your fat adaptations but get a bounce on your CHO storage by "carbing" up 1-3 before your big event.

Louise Burke, who has huge experience with Australian Olympic team, has a lot of useful research done. She certainly has one study, which of course I can't find now, where part of conclusion was down regulating of glucose pathway when eating hflc and fasted training.

May try adding one super hard training session a week after some carbs and see what you notice? Best of both world hack!

doozerie · 30-04-2018 2:09pm

ford2600 wrote:

The thread that won't die!

That’s ‘cos all things LCHF live forever. The fountain of youth isn’t filled with water at all, but lard! :pac:

Thanks for the link, I’ll have a read.

Re carb intake around training, it’s not really an answer to your question of whether I’d notice any difference if I ingest carbs beforehand, but generally speaking any morning training session I’ve been doing for many months now has been fasted. There are obviously many things beyond diet that distinguish fasted morning sessions from evening training sessions (some pre-dinner, some post-dinner, my dinner would typically include less than 50g carbs), not least the various (mental) stresses of a day’s work before the evening sessions, but broadly speaking I perceive the morning sessions to be “easier” by comparison, regardless of their level of intensity.

I’ve dabbled a little with increasing my carb intake on the day before a race, but given the number of variables involved I’ve yet to be able to draw any firm conclusions - I couldn’t say with any confidence what factors contributed to my feeling really good/strong in one race and the opposite in another. I’d clearly suck as a scientist. Having said that, I’m convinced that my sleep patterns and mental stress levels play a huge part but determining to what extent, and even prying those two apart, is itself a challenge - I can have slept well/enough but stress puts me in a negative frame of mind and physical exercise (training or racing) is a challenge, or I can have slept badly and be stressed but physical exercise can be a welcome outlet/distraction and I can push myself harder than I’d expected.

Clearly, this is about a lot more than diet/nutrition, no surprises there, but I continue to be pleasantly surprised that my diet doesn’t seem to be impairing my ability to train or race hard. At least not in any way that I currently recognise anyway.

A boat full of carbs

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