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A boat full of carbs

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 111 ✭✭tommy_tucker


    ford2600 wrote: »



    Apologies, easy mistake to make.


    i eat a well balanced diet, with alot of carbs because i cycle, i wondering why people go to this diet, i can't fully justify it in my head, how do your muscles get glycogen if you in no carbs? or can you make glycogen from fats??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    The body has two main fuel sources, fat and glucose/glycogen.

    At very high heart rates, for me north of 160 then my body will predominately choose glycogen. Below that on long spins(and I mean long) with an average heart rate of 130-140 including stops I'll get by mainly from bodyfat.

    On a 400km ride( I posted here on details) I burned circa 8000 calories and consumed less than 2000 total for day. That would be typical. I expect to do the same tomorrow on a 300km ride. No breakfast, and no food until circa 150 or so and very little therafter.

    That is probably independent of diet though, more to do with avoiding carbs than drive your blood sugar through the roof rather than avoiding carbs, rice/sweet potatoe good fizzy orange/kit kat bad kinda gig. Also fasted training will force your body to adapt, starting small of course.

    Why would you bother?

    * Most people would get in bother on long distance stuff suffer when trying to digest and exercise at the one time. Two very seperate hormonal systems look after both, they often don't get on well together. Same reason your might get indigestion while eating your dinner in middle of row or work stress for example.
    * Saves time on long rides
    * Convenient as fcuk for early morning starts, bed to bike in 15mins including coffee
    * A racing guy on A4 for certain and probably A3 distance could probably around with next to nothing to eat, saves bringing a gel back up. Longer races would probably need some sugar I would think? If you can eat 3 gels and hour and whistle dixie then you don't need to concern yourself maybe

    Away from bike, it gives great freedom in choosing when to eat. I'll go a full day out on site with just water rather than eat some convenient junk from a cafe/spar of wherever. I've travelled for 24hrs without eating without any real hunger.
    If you don't subcontract out your food prep you have total control over what you eat. I'll still eat occasionally in cafe etc and I won't say no to cake at my nephew birthday, one doesn't need to inflict a personal lifestyle choice on others; in pretty boring for most anyhow.

    Hope that helps, read rest of thread some good links to it. BTW Anthony Colpo thinks HFLC is bollix if you want balance to arguement. He also thinks that red meat being bad is bollix so you might be a bit conflicted there :D

    Good luck

    Edit: It's all be done before, like most thing..

    A former RAAM winner in the 1980's from the USA cycled 170 miles without any food or drink to settle a bet. Pretty sure Pittsburg was a start or end point but can't remember rider's name

    EDIT 2: Some people go even lower with carbs to go into Ketosis, where body breaks down fat into ketones and uses them to power exercise AND the brain(brain uses circa 600 calories of sugar a day and on a per kilo basis is a ridiculously high energy consumer, that along with the unique pain of human childbirth allowed us down out of the trees so I suppose we shouldn't complain. I don't bother with ketosis, I'm just illustrating how adaptable the human body is to food source


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,074 ✭✭✭Bambaata


    Good post ford2600. Im eager to try this when this season ends (mid September) to see how it goes for a few months so have this log followed! Im reluctant to change much whilst in peak season but hope October to December allow for a good chance to trial it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    Speaking of adaption, here's an interesting article on water fasting. Proper fasting that is, no food at all for the fasting period - just water. After the first 2/3 days, the body uses up all glyocen and then goes in to producing ketones ( for anything up to 60 days )

    I did it myself for 12 days. A fascinating life experience but not something that's easy to work into your daily life unless you have time off or attend a dedicated retreat. It also took several weeks to build back power but I felt very good afterwards nontheless.

    http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/11/jeanette-winterson-why-i-fasted-11-days


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    OleRodrigo wrote: »
    Speaking of adaption, here's an interesting article on water fasting. Proper fasting that is, no food at all for the fasting period - just water. After the first 2/3 days, the body uses up all glyocen and then goes in to producing ketones ( for anything up to 60 days )

    I did it myself for 12 days. A fascinating life experience but not something that's easy to work into your daily life unless you have time off or attend a dedicated retreat. It also took several weeks to build back power but I felt very good afterwards nontheless.

    http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/11/jeanette-winterson-why-i-fasted-11-days

    @OleRodrigo when did you do your partial Lenten campaign?!

    How bad was hunger or was it only at start? Did you feel weak? Did you exercise at all? Mrs OleRodrigo complain about your ketone breath?

    I know Peter Attia used to do 100km cycles at a decent pace after 24hrs fasted but after days of not eating I assume your body is more reluctant to burn calories.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo


    ford2600 wrote: »
    @OleRodrigo when did you do your partial Lenten campaign?!

    How bad was hunger or was it only at start? Did you feel weak? Did you exercise at all? Mrs OleRodrigo complain about your ketone breath?

    I know Peter Attia used to do 100km cycles at a decent pace after 24hrs fasted but after days of not eating I assume your body is more reluctant to burn calories.

    It was 2009. Felt hungry the first 2 days but then it goes until you finish. I didnt exercise as such, just walking, and that was quite slow. The author of the article mentioned going to the gym, however that is slightly misleading as it suggests it doesn't affect your strength but it certainly does. As you point out, the less calories you burn the better.

    No she didn't, nor did I although occasionally I felt nauseous. I went into work for the whole duration, nobody noticed anything. Although I wasn't hungry I did think about food and what I was going to cook when it was over. It was very pleasant. Mentally I felt sharp.

    I broke it after 12 days with rice, vegetables and chicken with ginger in small portions ( the stomach shrinks quite a lot ). I had lost about a stone and a half. It took two weeks for my normal strength to return, I was out of breath on short cycles during that time, but aside from that I felt good.


  • Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭MediaMan


    Interesting and somewhat scary article in VeloNews about the cumulative affect on your heart of too much exercise accumulated over the years:
    http://velonews.competitor.com/cycling-extremes. The thesis is that it impacts primarily on heart muscle health and also increase the risk of atrial fibrillation.
    The more you ride, the harder you ride, the faster you ride, the better athlete you might become today. But over decades of exertion, the myocardial cells of the heart begin to simply fall apart, and you’re left with an unhealthy ticker. Or so these new studies suggest. When you’re 20, or even 30, this can lead to acute reversible injuries — temporary damage that can be relieved with correct rest. In a 50-year-old, repeated hard doses of the sport you love, the rides you cherish — since complete recovery doesn’t occur as efficiently — could be leading to accelerated ageing, or hypertrophy — in layman’s terms, a stiff muscle in your chest. That probably wasn’t what you were looking for when you bought your last bike.
    In this analysis, there seems to be no clear measure as to what constitutes "too much" - rather that it is individual, genetically determined, etc.

    Joe Friel has referred to the article in his blog: http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2015/08/a-fib-and-the-master-endurance-athlete.html and has referred to this post by a heart doc who is quoted in the velonews article: http://www.drjohnm.org/2014/05/exercise-over-indulgence-and-atrial-fibrillation-seeing-the-obvious/

    The tenuous link between all this and low-carb / paleo is that Mark Sisson has been a a long critic of what he calls "chronic cardio": http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-evidence-continues-to-mount-against-chronic-cardio/

    Much of our cycling would fit into that "chronic cardio" category.

    Anyway, I'm not planning to stop cycling just yet. I think that as I age, keeping the long spins at moderate/low intensity, and the hard efforts short and relatively infrequent is wise in my case anyway. Would be very interested in what others think about this topic and if anyone has pointers to other research in this area, whether supporting these findings or contradicting them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭DaithiMC


    OleRodrigo wrote: »
    Speaking of adaption, here's an interesting article on water fasting. Proper fasting that is, no food at all for the fasting period - just water. After the first 2/3 days, the body uses up all glyocen and then goes in to producing ketones ( for anything up to 60 days )

    I did it myself for 12 days. A fascinating life experience but not something that's easy to work into your daily life unless you have time off or attend a dedicated retreat. It also took several weeks to build back power but I felt very good afterwards nontheless.

    http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/11/jeanette-winterson-why-i-fasted-11-days

    I have been following this research for about four years now and practice a version of the 5:2 - my version, eat breakfast and nothing else for 24 hours. I believe that the version of 5:2 where you break the fast into two 300 calorie meals does not bring the same benefits. I am most interested in the anti-inflammatory effects brought about by reductions in IGF-1 and other pro-inflammatory cytokines. My experience - on the day of the fast, after work I would go for an extended commute cycle and feel great (30-40km @ ca. 26-28kph). If I did the same cycle the next day I am exhausted. I am not sure if that is the effect of the fast or the exercise, probably both. On my off-fast days I don't change my diet and sometimes do tend to overeat - I think that's as much psychological as physical, i.e., I know I will be fasting so barter with myself that going the extra cals won't matter! I do about 6-8 200km+ rides each year and lots of 100km+ rides and have very little fear of bonking so long as the pace is not sustained intensity.

    I have seen all the effects reported, loss of weight, adipose fat mostly, reduction in cholesterol (I was on the high side of "normal"), good A1c and glucose numbers etc. I notice smelly breath around 5pm everyday as the acetone production from the utilisation of ketone bodies kicks in so some ketosis is starting in the first day.

    I would be interested to try a full 3-4 day fast and see how that goes. I also know that when I kicked this off my mood swings were not good and I have over time become more mindful of them so just go for a walk or try to distract myself though I don't notice them so much these days. Its become a way of life for me, though I will admit that I do bring a sugary bottle on evenings that I race and will also have some pasta for lunch. The high intensity workout from racing is not compatible I found, i.e., you bonk after an hour of intensity.

    I think the usual warnings apply - fasting is just that, stay hydrated, stay aware of yourself, i.e., if you become dizzy, stop. I think the most ridiculous thing I have seen are recipe books for Fasting diets - that should be a one page book! I also think that taken slowly, i.e., one day for a few months, then two days, then extending it, is a better idea than going straight in, its more sustainable and by the time you get to doing two/three days a week you are much more aware of how you should feel without food. If anyone offers to charge you something around a fasting lifestyle be deeply suspicious - its supposed to be free!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti


    Mentally I find it very hard to that as a cycle, I enjoy eating to not eat :D

    On other news, I just managed a 130cm box jump today in the gym. I 've no idea where I can use this, probably in parkour or something :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    Fasting experiment

    While travelling last week, with the usual very early starts, airports and our delightful array of convenience foods, I decided it was a good time to try a bit of fasting.

    24hr completely fasted followed by two days with just a light evening meal, circa 800-1000(That may not fit into the normal range of light, but I very often consume big meals, often with 100g of added fat between coconut oil, butter and olive oil along with a plate of food which needs side panels:))

    Not my first time doing a 24hr fast, and I find it really easy with remarkably very little hunger, good energy etc.

    Over the following two days felt fine with no energy problems etc.

    Following a return to normal eating for one day, I tackled a 300km pernament of Saturday, with the usual fasted start etc. Felt fine, tired at end, but at a guess that is as much due to my habit of stopping very little; including toilet breaks, food stops, minor mechanical, ferry crossing etc I was stopped for just over an hour.

    Appetite wasn't funny on Sunday and Monday but back to normal then.

    Weighed myself yesterday, 83kgs, exact same as I was before i started fast last week, and almost exactly my weight for the last 20 years. Whatever control systems that set appetite, bodyfat level, energy etc work really well for me. It probably the least looked at area in terms of tackling obesity but the one that makes most sense to me, especially in younger people before real damage is done.

    Recently did a long distance 2 day charity event with club; the dietary choices of about half the lads on group was an eye opener. The brainwashing by High 5 etc really works, 14hr days powered almost entirely by sugar. I just kept my mouth shut. The lads who just ate normal food and kept sugar to a minimum where the guys who seemed stronger and fresher as the days went on.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti


    AstraMonti wrote: »
    A friend is asking me for a nutritionist as he doesn't have time to research it himself (aka lazy fecker). Any recommendations for dublin based nutrionists?

    Just some good news on that. I brought him in the LCHF world and he couldn't be happier. He lost more than 20 kgs in the last 3 months without lifting a finger. Apart from light walking, the only difference was his diet. He came by the house yesterday and he looked so much better and he never feels hungry.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    http://sigmanutrition.com/episode86/

    23mins on is interesting especially for lads doing racing

    Anyone want to go guinea pig on the ketone salts:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti


    For anyone who got scared over the weekend about how much bacon they are eating, this article put things into perspective.. http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2015/10/world-health-organisation-meat-cancer/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    AstraMonti wrote: »
    For anyone who got scared over the weekend about how much bacon they are eating, this article put things into perspective.. http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2015/10/world-health-organisation-meat-cancer/

    From a leaf through same as this article in many ways. Colpo's article is kinda prophetic, replace Harvard with WHO and report reads similarly.

    http://anthonycolpo.com/red-meat-will-kill-you-and-other-assorted-fairy-tales/

    His lchf articles are interesting if contrary to most here.

    Expect a week or two of defending your lifestyle and why you are killing yourself


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    http://www.metabolismjournal.com/article/S0026-0495(15)00334-0/fulltext

    Volek & Pinney's study on keto athletes, fat oxidation far in excess of what was thought possible with no variance with control hc atheletes in terms of glycogen level. From hearing of study previously Zach Bitter, can run 2.40 marathon pace completely on fat!!

    Barry Murray on Power of Subtraction; less is more, just do it is cliff notes
    http://www.primal3.org/primal-3-podcast-episode-2-the-power-of-subtraction/

    http://sigmanutrition.com/episode92/

    Includes 2 year study of non obese individuals eating 25% below maintenance, all health markers improve and subjects typically feel better and continue new lifestyle after study in the main.


    Choose saturated fat (and monounsaturated according to article) for cooking rather than poly is now getting attention
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11981884/Cooking-with-vegetable-oils-releases-toxic-cancer-causing-chemicals-say-experts.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,153 ✭✭✭Paul Kiernan


    Consider that glycogen contributes 20% of energy needs towards walking. Those claims are complete BS.

    Fat-and-CHO-use-with-ex-intensity1.png

    Have you read any of this thread?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti


    At last they are moving towards the right direction

    http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(15)01481-6
    Here, we continuously monitored week-long glucose levels in an 800-person cohort, measured responses to 46,898 meals, and found high variability in the response to identical meals, suggesting that universal dietary recommendations may have limited utility.


  • Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭snoopytoop


    The real life evidence has proven what you quoted about "universal dietary limitations to have limited utilities" to be incorrect. ALL the blue zone populations on earth (where a high percentage of people reach the age of 90) eat a high carbohydrate, low protein, low to moderate fat diet. Their diets are low in animal products and typically around 75% carbohydrate. University studies have uses but real life evidence from multiple populations is better.
    You don't have to agree with me, but I think high fat is BS.


  • Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Vincenzo Nibbly


    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0139817

    "This trial-level meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials comparing LoCHO diets with LoFAT diets in strictly adherent populations demonstrates that each diet was associated with significant weight loss and reduction in predicted risk of ASCVD events. However, LoCHO diet was associated with modest but significantly greater improvements in weight loss and predicted ASCVD risk in studies from 8 weeks to 24 months in duration. These results suggest that future evaluations of dietary guidelines should consider low carbohydrate diets as effective and safe intervention for weight management in the overweight and obese, although long-term effects require further investigation."


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  • Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭MediaMan


    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0139817

    "This trial-level meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials comparing LoCHO diets with LoFAT diets in strictly adherent populations demonstrates that each diet was associated with significant weight loss and reduction in predicted risk of ASCVD events."

    I don't disagree with this, in fact I think it bears out anecdotal evidence from friends, family, etc.

    However, there's something funny going on here. At the abstract level, if I have a diet that's composed of 3 macronutrient groups, and I get health benefits from reducing my intake of group 1 OR group 2, then that says to me that this is not the whole story.

    Either:

    1. The benefit is actually from increasing my intake of group 3 food (in this case protein) to compensate for the reduction.
    OR
    2. The benefit is from something else, that is not adequately described by the term "Low Carb" or "Low Fat".

    I think this is mostly about #2 - the "something else" hypothesis. If I go Low Carb, I am unlikely to compensate by going for a massive increase in trans-fat intake. Likewise if I go Low Fat, I will not make up for it by living on refined carbs (although I guess some people might).

    Although there are big differences between low carb and low fat, the common ground (with good versions of these diets) is that people focus on eating natural, unprocessed food, and my hypothesis is that this is why both approaches are beneficial.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    TLDR: I dunno. *musings* *more musings* No, I still don’t know. Aren’t Dublin houses ****e though. :)

    After a couple of years of being on a (version of) LCHF diet about the only thing that I can say conclusively is that, while I see real benefits for me since moving to this diet, I honestly don’t know why. I have various theories, but they are really just educated guesses at best.

    One of my theories is that I simply wasn’t getting the nutritional benefit of all the food I used to pile into me. I’d eat high-carb foods all day long, people sometimes remarked that the volume of food I’d eat was out of proportion to my size. I was certainly burning off some of it, but my body was also very good at getting rid of it, I was constantly reminded that the human system is simply a tube with openings at each end. So my theory was that the food was not staying in my system long enough for all of the nutrients to be extracted, my rate of consumption was effectively running just to stand still. Things have slowed a lot on a low carb diet, maybe I’m getting more of the full benefit of the food I consume now.

    For me the definition of an LCHF diet remains a bit of a mystery too, which muddies things further. The closest I’ve seen to a definition of *strict* LCHF is a diet where you consume less than 20g carbs per day. I don’t aim for that, an average day for me is between 50g and 70g carbs, some days I hit 100g which would have committed LCHF advocates chasing me with crucifixes and burning torches. So by at least one definition I’m not even close to being on a strict LCHF diet, I’m half-heartedly and lazily dabbling, or something, at best.

    So I’m seeing benefits without being on strict LCHF. Does that mean I could see even more benefit by dramatically reducing my carb intake further? Or does it mean that there is more involved here than just reduced carb intake and increased fat intake? I honestly don’t know but I suspect that the truth lies more in the latter.

    My high-carb diet was reasonably “good” before, I was never a huge fan of processed foods so they didn’t feature much in my diet. However I used to casually overlook the likes of the energy drinks and energy bars (though mostly bananas) I consumed while cycling before, as if they never counted because I just burned them up. I question that mindset now, of course they count(ed) and the fact that I seemed reasonably healthy and didn’t put on weight was no indicator of anything really.

    My next significant adjustment will be to improve my approach to recovery, rather than try hard to refine my diet further. My sleep/recovery regime is terrible, I regularly stay up til the small hours of the morning, usually doing something constructive admittedly, as if that matters (DIY features large in that for a while now and will do for some time yet - if any of the cowboy arm of the building trade are reading this, let me just take this moment to convey a heartfelt “FCUK YOU!” to the lot of ye). I suspect that if I get enough sleep regularly, something I’ve always sucked at, I’ll see far greater benefits than tweaking my diet further.

    That goes back to the bigger picture, I’m convinced there is a lot more to it than how many of which nutrient you pile into you. That seems like stating the bleedin’ obvious but some of the LCHF blurb seems determined to define LCHF as the be all and end all of health and well being. I certainly don’t believe that. Neither do I believe that LCHF is nonsense of course, I’d certainly find it diverting to watch that “No. YOU smell!” argument being waged between the militantly pro- and the militantly anti- LCHF camps but I’ve no interest in engaging in it myself. Discussion is good, belligerence is boring.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    http://sigmanutrition.com/episode92/

    If you listen to this they talk about a well controlled experiment where lean subject consumed 20% below maintenance for 2years(with good observance) and despite losing weight all subject health markers improved. Seems eating less in general is a good thing.

    Despite, generally always eating "healthy", before switching to low carb I educated myself on what exactly my body needed to survive/thrive so it is quite difficult to separate out any benefits solely for low carb element rather than general increase in quality of food irrespective of macro breakdown.

    On what defines low carb, eating sub 50g (throughout the year, whatever about seasonally) so that your probably in ketosis is not a good idea for any guy looking to put out high power i.e. From what I've read, it seems the body down regulates it's ability to burn glycogen when ketones are plentiful; not a good idea if your trying to hang on on a climb/drag...

    I'd imagine a lot of the benefits for switching for a "normal" low fat diet to lchf is the simple increase in fat and the benefits in terms of hormone production. If you are producing more testosterone and hgh your are going to be feeling better. Also my veg intake has increasing very significantly, there seems to be almost universal agreement that that is a good thing. In general eating whole foods is going to keep the gut microbe happy; given the importance of gut bacteria on general well being I wouldn't be surprised that a lot of benefit comes from keeping those lads happy. Whatever diet you choose, choose one which allows for healthy gut bacteria. There seems to be a lot of interesting research on their role on health(of course it'll probably be sidetracked by some food company with fancy sounding names which they can charge through the nose for!)

    In any sample size of 1, its going to be really difficult to distribute where the improvement came from, the role of recovery, sleep, stress managment, training regime are going to have a massive impact.

    It's not that difficult to construct a diet which will probably work for most with all types of extreme macro breakdown(and everything in between) as long a s food quality is good and essential micro nutrients are provided for. Being a lazy fcuker it's just easier to add 80g of fat than going peeling and roasting even more sweet potatoes, parnsips etc.. Given how horrible most people diets are a diet based on wholefoods, irrespective of macros is going to be a vast improvement. I'd even think it easy to thrive on a vegatarian diet, although after eating beef brisket slow bbq for 20 hrs last night that won't be happening anytime soon!

    On the militant camps, there is an awful lot of nonsense and dishonesty about. If you listen to Taubes, Americans got fat when they started eating more carbs, this doesn't seem to be the case. Americans eat more than they use to in general and lots has changed like
    *more added sugar(about a 20 fold increase I think over a 100 year period)
    *huge swing in 100 years on amount of food cooked as against restaurant food/supermarket food
    * huge swing in fat type from saturated to plant omega 6 PFA
    * change in cattle feeding resulting in even lower omega 3 consumption

    Barry Murray is pretty eccentric in ways, but separate to diet there is a lot to be learning from examining the way he approaches things; cold adaptation is the next one on the list- it may help in reducing the amount of crap needed to be carried on long rides

    On who can/can't handle carbs(or in this case starch) this video is excellent. If you jump in at 7mins, you see discussion on how human population varies in adapation to handle starch. They test for an enzyme in the mouth which responds to starch and show how that adaption or lack thereof in some, leads to a very different insulin reponse


  • Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭MediaMan


    Came across this while searching around articles on low carb:
    http://cristivlad.com/why-keto-not-low-carb-pitfalls-low-carb-nutrition/

    This guy reckons that being low carb without being in ketosis is not good - that the body is stuck in no-man's land for energy production. Some references to other authors' work also.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,457 ✭✭✭ford2600


    MediaMan wrote: »
    Came across this while searching around articles on low carb:
    http://cristivlad.com/why-keto-not-low-carb-pitfalls-low-carb-nutrition/

    This guy reckons that being low carb without being in ketosis is not good - that the body is stuck in no-man's land for energy production. Some references to other authors' work also.

    Not sure if that author understands all the ways how the body produces ATP and how body recycles glycerol from triglycerides along with certain proteins to make glucose.

    With adaptation the body can do an awful lot on fat without the need for ketosis. The most annoying thing about that article is the absence of any allowance for variability between people.



    bottom is cut and paste from Barry Murray's site.

    This is also good discussion on ketosis and fat adaptation.

    http://sigmanutrition.com/episode86/

    Good podcast on ketosis and the other option of fasting to force body to switch to fat without the need to restrict diet to 20g of carbs.

    From optimumnutritionforsport.com


    Energy Systems

    Now for the science bit. I don’t want to go into too much detail, but understanding how your body functions is the key to understanding how food works. So very briefly, here are the different ways your body can produce ATP (i.e. energy)

    PhosphoCreatine System: ADP +Cr P –> ATP

    This system is used to produce the first 10-15secs of energy that we need for sprints. Obviously, this is not a system that ultra endurance athletes use very often. It doesn’t require glucose or oxygen and it is fuelled through the use of creatine, a natural molecule produced in the body consisting of 3 amino acids.

    Anaerobic System (Glycolysis): Glucose –> Pyruvate + ATP + H+

    This is a system more familiar to people which burns glucose quickly and coverts it to lactic acid. The result is quick energy, the type needed for high intensity exercise like interval training or hill climbs. This process doesn’t require any oxygen but the trade-off is a large production of hydrogen ions which decrease the pH resulting in muscle fatigue.

    Cori-Cycle (The Lactic Acid Cycle): Lactate + ATP –> Glucose

    Despite what people think, lactate is not the bad guy. The acid builds up and muscle fatigue/pain is mainly caused by an increase in hydrogen ions (which lowers the pH). The lactate produced in the muscle can be recycled in the liver and converted back to glucose. This glucose can then be shuttled to the muscle and used again to produce energy.

    Aerobic System (The Krebs Cycle/Citric Acid Cycle): Glucose + O2 –> CO2 + H2O + ATP

    This is the main system that our cells use to produce energy. It’s a series of enzyme controlled chemical reactions that use oxygen to breakdown glucose. The first few steps of this reaction involve converting glucose into a smaller carbon chain intermediate. What’s important to note here is that both fats and proteins can be broken down and converted into this exact same intermediate. In other words, as well as pure glucose, our cells can use fats and proteins to fuel the aerobic system. This is a complicated pathway but here is a very simple diagram to illustrate what I mean



    Lipolysis/Beta-Oxidation

    Lipolysis is the conversion of triglycerides into glycerol and free fatty acids. These free fatty acids can then be transferred to muscle where they are further broken down through beta-oxidation to prepare them for the Krebs Cycle. The advantage of using fatty acids is 1. The amount we can store is far greater than carbs and 2. They provide roughly twice the amount of energy per gram. So we have lots more of this type of fuel and it produces more energy. The only disadvantage is that because they are much bigger molecules than glucose, they require more oxygen for their combustion. Therefore, fatty acids from the plasma and adipose tissue are oxidised at a higher rate when the intensity is low (i.e. when you can take in more oxygen, i.e. breath more)

    ITMG (Intramuscular Triglycerides) Fat Oxidation

    So when fats are used to produce energy, they can come from three different locations. 1. Adipose Tissue, where the majority of itis stored 2. Muscle and 3. Blood Plasma. The fat stored in muscle is called Intramuscular Triglycerides. It is this which gives meat its marbled appearance. As ITMG’s are already present in the muscle, transport and delivery is not an issue. Therefore, the ability to use them is increased especially as exercise intensity increases.

    Glycolytic Proteins/Protein Oxidation

    Amino acids (such as Leucine, Isoleuncine and Valine) can also be converted into Acetly-CoA (the intermediate that both glucose and fatty acids are converted to) and then used in the Krebs Cycle. It is estimated that 5-10% of energy can come from the oxidation of proteins. However, this is not ideal if amino acids are not plentiful as it means that the source of amino acids will be from muscle tissue. This can be reduced by supplying amino acids and increasing the rate of fat oxidation to spare the use of protein.

    Glucose Alanine Cycle

    Just like the Cori Cycle, where a waste product is converted back into glucose, the same can be done with amino acids. The amino acids Alanine and Glutamine can be used to convert Pyruvate back into Glucose.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    ford2600 wrote: »
    cold adaptation is the next one on the list-
    I'm pretty good with the cold showers now. I did the following...

    1) About 1 week of doing Wim Hoff Method. Not necessary but you need to motivate yourself somehow... https://youtu.be/A9zS94x2nd8?t=3m
    2) Another few days of just getting in but having to gee myself up, flinching and involuntary breathing while in there.
    3) Now I can pretty much get in with minimum fuss. No motivation required.

    Some things I noted...
    Putting your face under the shower will calm your breathing down.
    Shoulders and underarms are the worst part for me.
    The centre of my back is the best bit, cold water feels bizarrely warm.
    I mostly do them do them in the evening, it sets you up nicely for a good night's sleep.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭OleRodrigo




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti


    I 've been experimenting with intermintent fasting the last week or so. My last meal is around 6-7 in the evening or I might have a protein drink around 11 after the gym. My next meal is around 1pm. The first couple of days my stomach was doing all sort of noises, but it has now started to slow down now and accepted that it's not going to get food until 1. Regardless, I already lost 3kg in a week (of course I also cut all the crap from christmas). I am not sure what I am trying to achieve here to be honest (apart from losing some unwanted kgs) and I don't know if I will keep doing for more than 2 weeks, because I still think I don't eat enough. But I don't know where to fit another meal at this stage.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,358 ✭✭✭Ryath


    AstraMonti wrote: »
    My last meal is around 6-7 in the evening or I might have a protein drink around 11 after the gym.



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