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Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

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    #1442
    Stop moaning ffs
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Stop moaning ffs


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Not directly related to Brexit, but one of the unintended consequences of being too dependent on your neighbours.


    Ireland's interdependency on the UK is clearly being exposed by the fears of a no-deal Brexit.

    If only we could do something like build massive wind farms off the south west coast to gain some sort of independence from their supply.


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    #1443
    Walter Bishop
    Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭Walter Bishop


    There shouldn't have been a referendum on Brexit because the whole point of electing MPs in the first place is to avoid the general public being able to vote on issues like this outside a General Election.

    If Cameron wanted to appease the right wing of his own party and get the likes of Farage off his back he should have made Brexit part of his manifesto in the 2015 election and let the people vote then. Of course he didn't do that as he knew he potentially lose the election as a result (or be unable to get it through Parliament anyway) so instead in his arrogance he put it to a referendum he assumed he would win and underestimated just how out of touch he and the rest of the political elite were with the voting public.


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    #1444
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Stop moaning ffs wrote: »
    If only we could do something like build massive wind farms off the south west coast to gain some sort of independence from their supply.
    The UK are already building such wind farms and there is no reason why Ireland can't do the same.
    I'm sure the EU would subsidise their building, if an inter-connector to France was included.


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    #1445
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The UK are already building such wind farms and there is no reason why Ireland can't do the same.
    I'm sure the EU would subsidise their building, if an inter-connector to France was included.
    If you have a window seat flying into/out of Liverpool or Manchester Airport you can see vast arrays of wind turbines in the Irish Sea off the NW England/N Wales coast. It could be an absolute goldmine for Ireland when pursued given the low per unit costs, the vast resource available and the interconnection possibilities.

    Meanwhile progressive Ireland continues subsidising the burning of turf to produce electricity


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    #1446
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Ireland's interdependency on the UK is clearly being exposed by the fears of a no-deal Brexit.
    Moneypoint was offline during winter. That's about the worst case scenario. So we're good. Up north the two big stations will be closed down, Moneypoint is set to close in 2025 or there abouts. Mothballing them would give massive amounts of redundancy.

    Unlike the UK which is a nett importer of power and is having major problems even starting the construction of new nuclear power plants and is planning lots more interconectors.

    Keeping the lights on the UK isn't being helped by Brexit.
    Stuff like EU pooling of carbon credits too.


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    #1447
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,102 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Walter Bishop wrote: »
    There shouldn't have been a referendum on Brexit because the whole point of electing MPs in the first place is to avoid the general public being able to vote on issues like this outside a General Election.

    If Cameron wanted to appease the right wing of his own party and get the likes of Farage off his back he should have made Brexit part of his manifesto in the 2015 election and let the people vote then. Of course he didn't do that as he knew he potentially lose the election as a result (or be unable to get it through Parliament anyway) so instead in his arrogance he put it to a referendum he assumed he would win and underestimated just how out of touch he and the rest of the political elite were with the voting public.

    Britain didn't even have any history of referendums. The 1975 one was just a cheap political stunt by Harold Wilson (who on earth holds a referendum on joining the EEC after they have joined?).


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    #1448
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Moneypoint was offline during winter. That's about the worst case scenario. So we're good. Up north the two big stations will be closed down, Moneypoint is set to close in 2025 or there abouts. Mothballing them would give massive amounts of redundancy.

    Unlike the UK which is a nett importer of power and is having major problems even starting the construction of new nuclear power plants and is planning lots more interconectors.

    Keeping the lights on the UK isn't being helped by Brexit.
    Stuff like EU pooling of carbon credits too.
    Ireland is a nett importer of energy too. We are a long long way from self sufficient unfortunately.


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    #1449
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,102 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Shelga wrote: »
    Yep, at the Dalkey book festival. The panel discussion was really interesting. My friend was with me and is not familiar with James O'Brien- she wasn't very comfortable with the way he was being quite sneering and dismissive of the only woman on the panel- Pippa Malmgren, who is a former economic advisor to George W. Bush and was basically saying that Brexit isn't as big a deal as is being made out.

    I could definitely see how he was coming off that way- but I think it's sheer frustration at having listened to views that are not based in fact endlessly for the last three years- as he said himself- "the fate of a nation hangs in the balance".

    He tends to be very direct and confrontational, that's just his style. He's probably the most outspoken media critic of Brexit in the UK.


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    #1450
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,462 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Strazdas wrote: »
    Britain didn't even have any history of referendums. The 1975 one was just a cheap political stunt by Harold Wilson (who on earth holds a referendum on joining the EEC after they have joined?).

    It was the previous Conservative government under Ted Heath who jointed the EEC on 1 January 1973 along with Denmark and Ireland.

    The trade unions and much of the Labour party, including many trade unions were bitterly opposed to the common market. Wilson had to be seen to effect change in the EEC to justify a Labour government continuing to participate in what was essentially a Tory project. He secured some token changes in negotiations and called the referendum so that Labour voters could permit themselves to change their minds on the EEC.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #1451
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,102 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It was the previous Conservative government under Ted Heath who jointed the EEC on 1 January 1973 along with Denmark and Ireland.

    The trade unions and much of the Labour party, including many trade unions were bitterly opposed to the common market. Wilson had to be seen to effect change in the EEC to justify a Labour government continuing to participate in what was essentially a Tory project. He secured some token changes in negotiations and called the referendum so that Labour voters could permit themselves to change their minds on the EEC.

    It was a ludicrous way of doing things. The time to hold the referendum was before the UK joined, not after. A referendum on EEC membership two years after joining was pure eejitry.

    Also, I think the current Brexit shambles would have played out back then had the UK voted to leave. Britain had spent 15 years trying to join and the idea it would just quit the EEC on the back of a glorified opinion poll with little legal status seems fanciful.


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    #1452
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Strazdas wrote: »
    Britain didn't even have any history of referendums. The 1975 one was just a cheap political stunt by Harold Wilson (who on earth holds a referendum on joining the EEC after they have joined?).

    No one. Hence why they were asked if they wanted to stay in
    The Government has announced the results of the renegotiation of the United Kingdom's terms of membership of the European Community.

    Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?


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    #1453
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,102 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    No one. Hence why they were asked if they wanted to stay in

    I'm speaking metaphorically of course by using the word "join", but a referendum on EEC membership two years after joining was an absolute joke and banana republic stuff - and this was in a country which had never even held a referendum.


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    #1454
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Strazdas wrote: »
    I'm speaking metaphorically of course by using the word "join", but a referendum on EEC membership two years after joining was an absolute joke and banana republic stuff - and this was in a country which had never even held a referendum.

    Hyperbolic statements often aren't as obvious as you would think on the internet.


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    #1455
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Hyperbolic statements often aren't as obvious as you would think on the internet.
    True, it's also worth remembering that most posters here weren't even alive when the referendum happened.

    So something that seems obvious to some may be meaningless to others.

    Anyway another day another claim the EU will renegotiate the deal.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48653990
    The EU "would be willing to renegotiate" a Brexit deal, says Tory leadership hopeful Jeremy Hunt, adding "they want to solve the problem".

    The EU has previously said the withdrawal agreement reached with the UK cannot be reopened.

    Unlike the race frontrunner, Boris Johnson, Mr Hunt did not commit to leaving the EU on 31 October.


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    #1456
    Lackadaisical
    Closed Accounts Posts: 518 ✭✭✭Lackadaisical


    20silkcut wrote: »
    Can they make life difficult for us though with regard to the landbridge to Europe if they did go rogue?
    I’m sure they see that as a trump card in all this. Jacob Rees mogg has alluded to it several times in a vaguely sinister tone and others too.

    Well, much like if Canada tried to make life difficult for Alaskan trade transiting to the rest of the continental US, they would probably face severe trade sanctions if they tried to do so.

    Attempting to isolate and financially undermine part of the EU by any external actor would be met with serious economic consequences. Ireland isn't some isolated little country anymore.

    Not only that if British policies damaged Irish based multinationals the UK would be considered to be a dangerous rogue state like Russia and would probably isolate itself economically even further.

    The consequences of impacting gas connections to Ireland would also be disastrous both in terms of direct repercussions from likely sanctions but also in terms of law suits from energy companies and loss of international reputation.

    Basically to embargo an EU member would be economic suicide.

    The very reason for the EU's existing at all is in large part to prevent scenarios like this for otherwise small members. It's about being stronger as a group than as individual countries on their own.

    It's 2019 not 1919 and some political commentary in Britain doesn't seem to recognise that.


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    #1457
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,144 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    The cascade blackout as has happened in Argentina is quite unlikely here. The ESB keep a very conservative policy on grid. A right pain to get the system back up.
    The more interconnection the better. Sorry a bit off topic.


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    #1458
    trashcan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,917 ✭✭✭trashcan


    Hadn't heard anything from Rory Stewart before, but I saw him on youtube earlier being interviewed by James O'Brien and I thought he came across as very reasonable and thoughtful, for a Tory. So of course he hasn't a cat in hells chance in the leadership election.

    One (frivolous) comment on YouTube that did make me chuckle was that he simultaneously manages to look both 15 and 85 ��


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    #1459
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,102 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Hyperbolic statements often aren't as obvious as you would think on the internet.

    The 1975 referendum fiasco led directly to Brexit. It created the mindset in the British public that an advisory referendum was an appropriate way of "solving the Europe question". Would Cameron have even called a referendum without the backdrop of 1975?


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    #1460
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,478 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Walter Bishop wrote: »
    There shouldn't have been a referendum on Brexit because the whole point of electing MPs in the first place is to avoid the general public being able to vote on issues like this outside a General Election.

    If Cameron wanted to appease the right wing of his own party and get the likes of Farage off his back he should have made Brexit part of his manifesto in the 2015 election and let the people vote then. Of course he didn't do that as he knew he potentially lose the election as a result (or be unable to get it through Parliament anyway) so instead in his arrogance he put it to a referendum he assumed he would win and underestimated just how out of touch he and the rest of the political elite were with the voting public.

    I think having referenda is generally a good thing when it comes to important issues like membership of the EU. The problem isnt the fact of the referendum but rather its execution - badly campaigned by the remain parties, questionable practises by leave, no clear plan on what leaving actually entailed, lack of objective information and a culture of blaming the EU for all wrongs all factored into its poor execution.

    If they voted to leave based on a fair and accurate referendum, that is a valid democratic exercise.


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    #1461
    20silkcut
    Registered Users Posts: 2,553 ✭✭✭20silkcut


    Lackadaisical wrote: »
    Well, much like if Canada tried to make life difficult for Alaskan trade transiting to the rest of the continental US, they would probably face severe trade sanctions if they tried to do so.

    Attempting to isolate and financially undermine part of the EU by any external actor would be met with serious economic consequences. Ireland isn't some isolated little country anymore.

    Not only that if British policies damaged Irish based multinationals the UK would be considered to be a dangerous rogue state like Russia and would probably isolate itself economically even further.

    The consequences of impacting gas connections to Ireland would also be disastrous both in terms of direct repercussions from likely sanctions but also in terms of law suits from energy companies and loss of international reputation.

    Basically to embargo an EU member would be economic suicide.

    The very reason for the EU's existing at all is in large part to prevent scenarios like this for otherwise small members. It's about being stronger as a group than as individual countries on their own.

    It's 2019 not 1919 and some political commentary in Britain doesn't seem to recognise that.


    Yes but much like a no deal brexit it’s something they’d like to think they could do if they so wished.
    ‘We have a gun to our head and we can take you with us’ sort of mentality. They are certainly determined to keep all the bullets in the magazine and that gun fully loaded.
    That certainly was the tone that JRM evoked when he brushed with the subject. Almost that Ireland is their hostage.
    Economic and political suicide is basically the pillar of the Pro brexit argument at the moment and is fully supported by over 40% of the population over there.

    It was depressing to see Dominic Raab on sophy ridge today say that the survival of the Tories is dependent on a no deal brexit. She had the perfect opportunity to say ‘what about the survival of the country’ ???but didn’t and moved on to another topic. This is typical of interviews of hard Brexiteers. When the opportunity to finish them off presents itself they pull back change topic or end the interview it’s unforgivable.
    Or maybe that’s how you talk to people with a gun to their head I don’t know???


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    #1462
    Headshot
    Registered Users Posts: 53,907 ✭✭✭✭Headshot


    Guys heads up the debate show is on Channel 4 now


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    #1463
    WoollyRedHat
    Registered Users Posts: 10,462 ✭✭✭✭WoollyRedHat


    Telegraph the EU. Tories preferred method of communication when the lights go off.


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    #1464
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Can't get the live tv to work on the c4 website so that's me done. Not in the humour of faffing about with proxies.


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    #1465
    gooch2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭gooch2k9


    Rory Stewart got a good reception there. Have to laugh at Raab stating a citizen's assembly would be undemocratic.

    Javid is shooting for headlines here.


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    #1466
    Rjd2
    Registered Users Posts: 12,019 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    Johnson right to avoid this, Stewart and Raab would have tore him apart from both sides.


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    #1467
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,905 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Can't get the live tv to work on the c4 website so that's me done. Not in the humour of faffing about with proxies.

    Same here. But those who are able to watch will update us I am sure.


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    #1468
    Rjd2
    Registered Users Posts: 12,019 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    gooch2k9 wrote: »
    Rory Stewart got a good reception there. Have to laugh at Raab stating a citizen's assembly would be undemocratic.

    Javid is shooting for headlines here.

    Javid has a very impressive backstory, but he is incredibly dull.

    Arguably has less charisma than Gove and Hunt ffs.


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    #1469
    gooch2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭gooch2k9


    Javid allowed to say 'Alternative arrangements' and not pulled up on it, we'll have a break instead. At least MaxFac was an idea, 'alternative arrangements' isn't and now that is the line peddled.

    Nonsense like this is why I think they need to just go.


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    #1470
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,905 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Did they put an empty chair in the studio or what for Johnson? I refuse to call him B......


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    #1471
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Same here. But those who are able to watch will update us I am sure.

    JAvid has just stated that Ireland are the key to unlocking the problem. OFfer to pay for it and Ireland will drop the backstop.


This discussion has been closed.
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