Beggars sitting outside shops

10-10-2020 8:48pm

agoodpunt wrote: »

Why is the law not enforced? cut dole on repeat offenders?

It has been pointed out by a few people including links, that the law is enforced

10-10-2020 8:53pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Along with this other information they posted, I think those two could be part of an organised crime gang. The link I put before shows that the Gardai discovered other crimes when they carried out a crackdown on organised begging. Reporting the intimidation to the Gardai, could lead to them solving other crimes, like shoplifting.

Regarding the beggars outside the doors of petrol stations and why they can't be moved on? I asked a shop attendant in one petrol station about it and he told me the windows would be put in or his own car would get vandalised.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30897107.html

Still waiting for proof of the organising begging part.

riclad · 10-10-2020 9:12pm

The welfare payment 200 euro a week is enough for people to live on, they also get rent allowance if they do not live at home.
Why do people beg at all.?
I assume they need money to buy drugs,
Beer. There's people who work full time and earn 300 cash after paying tax prsi, health insurance.
Raising welfare rates would simply discourage people from working.
Maybe roma have stopped begging because Irish people copped on it was
a scam

dxhound2005 · 10-10-2020 9:16pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Still waiting for proof of the organising begging part.

It would need the services of a legal professional to test it. I see it as being covered by clauses (b) and (d) here, by the fact that the two of them are materially involved in the organisation of begging at two separate premises. From the information given they are a gang of two, and that is the same as being a gang of three or twenty in my reading of the legislation.

Offence to direct or organise begging.

5.— (1) A person who—

(a) controls or directs the actions of another person for the purposes of begging,

(b) organises or is materially involved in the organisation of begging by another person,

(c) forces another person to beg, or

(d) otherwise causes another person to beg,

is guilty of an offence.

(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—

(a) on summary conviction to a class A fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or both, or

(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €200,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or both.

corner of hells · 10-10-2020 9:20pm

Man with broke phone wrote: »

The people with the mental health problems begging need to be sectioned, the people with addictions need to be put in drunk tanks and the career beggars need to be dealt with in the most severe punishments allowed by our society.

I would vote for a law change where if found to be begging as a career you would be put to work as a farm animal. Dragging a plough or whatever. Fed like a farm animal and inly allowed an hour a day to yourself to apply for jobs.

They even lie to themselves and call it tapping because they cant admit to themselves they are beggars. Like they are great scam artists.
I need two euro for the bus bud. Sure you do.

There is a woman and two daughters in fairview most days that bus there and always people sitting with them offering them sympathy, they need to be forced into whatever department would help them or punish them.

There is also a growing number of begging Roma mothers who are visited by their well groomed daughters and sons in school uniforms at lunchtime to be given lunch money. Its a bizarre occurance I noticed working on a site that overlooks a few streets in dublin city centre.

Theres no shame the kids turn up like they are coming home for lunch. Talk in their language for a while and then get given money for a roll and can of coke or what have ye.

Then a pile of plebs who have some sort of need to show these people that they love them sitting with them for a half hour and giving them money or sandwhiches they put to the side and dont eat.

Goid evening Sturmfuhrer, the trains will be running on time tonight.

riclad · 10-10-2020 9:21pm

riclad wrote: »

The welfare payment 200 euro a week is enough for people to live on, they also get rent allowance if they do not live at home.
Why do people beg at all.?
I assume they need money to buy drugs,
Beer. There's people who work full time and earn 300 cash after paying tax prsi, health insurance.
Raising welfare rates would simply discourage people from working.
Maybe roma have stopped begging because Irish people copped on it was
a scam

I have given water and food to homeless people I would not give them money

corner of hells · 10-10-2020 9:22pm

riclad wrote: »

I have given water and food to homeless people I would not give them money

I think you're talking to yourself.

1990sman · 10-10-2020 9:31pm

would it be weird to just shoot them?
ok maybe a little at first... but wouldn't it just make sense soon after.

Kylta · 10-10-2020 9:48pm

1990sman wrote: »

would it be weird to just shoot them?
ok maybe a little at first... but wouldn't it just make sense soon after.

Yeah but only if they can shoot you back, im sure that would make sense to them. Maybe every time they hit you, you hand them 2euro

Mules · 10-10-2020 9:53pm

Kylta wrote: »

Yeah but only if they can shoot you back, im sure that would make sense to them. Maybe every time they hit you, you hand them 2euro

:D

Edgware · 10-10-2020 10:20pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

....so maybe welfare isn't truly enough to live on?

And you point is? Even with the pandemic there are ads up seeking workers.

riclad · 10-10-2020 10:29pm

The beggars I see in dublin are young people , I think they are looking for easy money to buy drugs or beer,
I don't think they have mental issues.
There's no easy solution to this issue.
Gardai have more important issues to deal with than beggars. Drug gangs, burglars, drunk drivers.
They look well dressed and healthy.

dxhound2005 · 10-10-2020 10:41pm

riclad wrote: »

The beggars I see in dublin are young people , I think they are looking for easy money to buy drugs or beer,
I don't think they have mental issues.
There's no easy solution to this issue.
Gardai have more important issues to deal with than beggars. Drug gangs, burglars, drunk drivers.
They look well dressed and healthy.

The Gardai have a duty to enforce the leglisation. In particular they should take action against the organised begging gang reported on this thread, which threatened to damage property. They could do with the help of people who are happy to discuss it on the internet, but won't pursue it in real life.

Offence.

2.— A person who, while begging in any place—

(a) harasses, intimidates, assaults or threatens any other person or persons, or

(b) obstructs the passage of persons or vehicles,

is guilty of an offence and is liable, on summary conviction, to a class E fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month or both.

Edgware · 10-10-2020 10:49pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The Gardai have a duty to enforce the leglisation. In particular they should take action against the organised begging gang reported on this thread, which threatened to damage property. They could do with the help of people who are happy to discuss it on the internet, but won't pursue it in real life.

Offence.

2.— A person who, while begging in any place—

(a) harasses, intimidates, assaults or threatens any other person or persons, or

(b) obstructs the passage of persons or vehicles,

is guilty of an offence and is liable, on summary conviction, to a class E fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month or both.

Its a disgrace Joe. The Guards hassling the poor homeless

The_Brood · 10-10-2020 10:53pm

I used to believe you must always help people no matter what and that fears that giving them money will only make things worse were only an excuse not to help....but I was completely wrong about that, I admit it. Very wrong.

There are solutions but they start with addressing much deeper problems in society rather than suggesting programs after the fact. Ireland is considered a first-world, very high quality of life society, but that absolutely does not reflect the reality for many people. Several governments have failed entirely at addressing this and have been let off the hook.

trashcan · 10-10-2020 11:06pm

1990sman wrote: »

would it be weird to just shoot them?
ok maybe a little at first... but wouldn't it just make sense soon after.

Not very efficient though. I believe some people did some practical research into "solutions" in the 1940's.

dxhound2005 · 10-10-2020 11:06pm

The_Brood wrote: »

I used to believe you must always help people no matter what and that fears that giving them money will only make things worse were only an excuse not to help....but I was completely wrong about that, I admit it. Very wrong.

There are solutions but they start with addressing much deeper problems in society rather than suggesting programs after the fact. Ireland is considered a first-world, very high quality of life society, but that absolutely does not reflect the reality for many people. Several governments have failed entirely at addressing this and have been let off the hook.

They failed entirely at not making everyone equally rich/poor. No society has every achieved that.

nullzero · 10-10-2020 11:30pm

I've seen them changing shifts on more than one occasion, one holding the Fort being relieved of duty by the next beggar, probably a car nearby with the boss watching on.

whisky_galore · 10-10-2020 11:31pm

The_Brood wrote: »

I used to believe you must always help people no matter what and that fears that giving them money will only make things worse were only an excuse not to help....but I was completely wrong about that, I admit it. Very wrong.

There are solutions but they start with addressing much deeper problems in society rather than suggesting programs after the fact. Ireland is considered a first-world, very high quality of life society, but that absolutely does not reflect the reality for many people. Several governments have failed entirely at addressing this and have been let off the hook.

Some folks have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are.

10-10-2020 11:59pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It would need the services of a legal professional to test it. I see it as being covered by clauses (b) and (d) here, by the fact that the two of them are materially involved in the organisation of begging at two separate premises. From the information given they are a gang of two, and that is the same as being a gang of three or twenty in my reading of the legislation.

Offence to direct or organise begging.

5.— (1) A person who—

(a) controls or directs the actions of another person for the purposes of begging,

(b) organises or is materially involved in the organisation of begging by another person,

(c) forces another person to beg, or

(d) otherwise causes another person to beg,

is guilty of an offence.

(2) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—

(a) on summary conviction to a class A fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or both, or

(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €200,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or both.

****ing finally. Thank you.

I don't think it is but who knows.

Yyhhuuu · 11-10-2020 11:01am

The city I live in all the homeless and other beggars suddenly disappeared during lockdown. This is because there was no money to be made. Interesting how they all found a place to stay. Begging is becoming an industry. A lot of vested interests. Then you see all the do gooders sitting with them helping them. I would accept begging if there was no social welfare but for God's sake they're getting a fortune in social welfare in comparison to the UK. No wonder they're all here. Those in addiction need help. The others foreign beggars are sending money back home which is enough to build houses in their countries. The BBC & Channel 4 documentary on begging was very interesting. It's basically a scam. Many not even homeless. The money is so great better than a job. I heard of cases of beggars dying leaving vast sums behind.

corner of hells · 11-10-2020 11:28am

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

The city I live in all the homeless and other beggars suddenly disappeared during lockdown. This is because there was no money to be made. Interesting how they all found a place to stay. Begging is becoming an industry. A lot of vested interests. Then you see all the do gooders sitting with them helping them. I would accept begging if there was no social welfare but for God's sake they're getting a fortune in social welfare in comparison to the UK. No wonder they're all here. Those in addiction need help. The others foreign beggars are sending money back home which is enough to build houses in their countries. The BBC & Channel 4 documentary on begging was very interesting. It's basically a scam. Many not even homeless. The money is so great better than a job. I heard of cases of beggars dying leaving vast sums behind.

What city

suicide_circus · 11-10-2020 11:49am

dhaughton99 wrote: »

The traveler one who aggressively begs on the bridge in Stephens gn saying she’s hungry, lives in the estate next to me and the husband drives a Hyundai s40 and they are far from hungry. I fume every time I see her.

Is that the short one with dark curly hair who dosnt look the full shilling?

Yyhhuuu · 11-10-2020 12:08pm

corner of hells wrote: »

What city

An Irish city...

zerosugarbuzz · 11-10-2020 12:13pm

StereoSound wrote: »

Can anything be done about them to move them on ? Don't see store managers giving a sht about them asking their customers for money...would the cops move them on or they even bother to approach them ?

Can I suggest you bring them home to the warmth of where ever you live? I'm sure they would prefer your surroundings to the cold wet footpath out side the stores you mention. You, might in turn, learn some humanity from them, though that may be me being a little ambitious.

Edgware · 11-10-2020 1:10pm

zerosugarbuzz wrote: »

Can I suggest you bring them home to the warmth of where ever you live? I'm sure they would prefer your surroundings to the cold wet footpath out side the stores you mention. You, might in turn, learn some humanity from them, though that may be me being a little ambitious.

Loads of Irish people rang into Liveline offering accommodation to Syrian refugees last year but none were offering accommodation to our own ethnic minority

dxhound2005 · 11-10-2020 1:14pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

****ing finally. Thank you.

I don't think it is but who knows.

That's not much of an answer after badgering me all day to get the information for you. And accusing me of making things up.

1990sman · 11-10-2020 1:33pm

deport the whole lot, feckin greeks

riclad · 11-10-2020 1:46pm

Every city has beggars .It,s not an industry, its individuals who sit outside shops waiting for people to drop money into a cup.there is no trade union or membership fee.
if you want to look at industrys ,theres organised crime,
gangs who import cocaine and marijuana ,heroin from various countrys and
have a local network of dealers to sell it in every small town in ireland.
now and then i see a roma woman begging ,but very rarely,
i think the roma people have found easier ways to make money .
from what i can see its legal to sit in a public place with a cup in front of you as long as you do not threaten or harass or annoy anyone, do not block an entrance ,do not stop retail staff from going about their business .

i,d prefer to live in a modern free country than have police just arresting
people who are just sitting on a street and begging .

dxhound2005 · 11-10-2020 1:54pm

One of the easier ways they have found is the money changing scam.

https://www.derryjournal.com/news/crime/retailers-urged-be-aware-change-scam-1357366

Antares35 · 11-10-2020 9:56pm

There was a woman used to beg outside bull and castle who was always telling people she was pregnant, but her pregnancy must have spanned about three years

Come to think of it, that was one of the places we stopped drinking in because you would be tormented sitting outside from people asking for change and cigarettes constantly. The worst was having to listen to the drawn out story about their unfortunate circumstances, how they definitely definitely definitely were not doing drugs and had been locked out of their hostel and were fleeing an ex and just needed the train fare to Wexford etc. Same story every time. Jesus even kids copying homework know to compare notes.

Alejandro68 · 11-10-2020 10:43pm

There was one young man who sat near my old place of work. And at closing I would put together a big dinner for him. He was always so polite and thankful. I still think of him and hope he is ok.

riclad · 11-10-2020 11:18pm

That's a classic I just need money for busfair, money for a hostel, homeless people are registered, they ring a free phone no, they get told to go to hostel x at street y, its free.
I'd respect beggars more if they had a sign, I need money for drugs,
I need money for beer. At least its honest

whisky_galore · 11-10-2020 11:23pm

riclad wrote: »

That's a classic I just need money for busfair, money for a hostel, homeless people are registered, they ring a free phone no, they get told to go to hostel x at street y, its free.
I'd respect beggars more if they had a sign, I need money for drugs,
I need money for beer. At least its honest

It was 20p to "phone home" when there were payphones!

auspicious · 12-10-2020 12:29am

Why let a possible organised crime gang get in the way of the possible comfort gained in monetary gain and psychological gain to a person in real need?
Just give your couple of quid which you can afford and let the Guards sort the deviants out.
Or go get a sandwich for them where either way you're exercising your moral agency.

12-10-2020 12:38am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

That's not much of an answer after badgering me all day to get the information for you. And accusing me of making things up.

I wasn't badgering you. I was trying to get you to back your argument. That's all.

And you did make stuff up or at the very least, made assumptions.

Strumms · 12-10-2020 1:28am

There is one lad beside the door of a petrol station which I use. The petrol station is on private land, so why the **** isn’t he being moved on. It’s not like outside a shop on a main street. He’s not aggressive per say but he has been rude, is rude and VERY persistent. If you shake your head or reply in the negative something mainly inaudible but of a disparaging tone with the odd ‘fûck...(inaudible)’ can be heard. I’d given him a few quid previously the odd time but when I heard that after I genuinely had nothing smaller than a 20 on me I said fûck it, also the guy is about a foot from the door so you are nearly bumping into him...

12-10-2020 2:31am

Strumms wrote: »

There is one lad beside the door of a petrol station which I use. The petrol station is on private land, so why the **** isn’t he being moved on. It’s not like outside a shop on a main street. He’s not aggressive per say but he has been rude, is rude and VERY persistent. If you shake your head or reply in the negative something mainly inaudible but of a disparaging tone with the odd ‘fûck...(inaudible)’ can be heard. I’d given him a few quid previously the odd time but when I heard that after I genuinely had nothing smaller than a 20 on me I said fûck it, also the guy is about a foot from the door so you are nearly bumping into him...

Ask the premises so, maybe they aren't bothered by him

1990sman · 12-10-2020 4:35am

is this still a thread? really?

Pkiernan · 12-10-2020 4:58am

1990sman wrote: »

is this still a thread? really?

The woke is strong in this one.

Lollipops23 · 12-10-2020 11:18am

I frequent the Fresh supermarket in Smithfield during the week- there is always, without fail, people directly outside the door asking for change.

They're not aggressive, but you need to almost squeeze past them to get in the door- and of course they never wear masks. It's off putting at best, frightening at worst.

Security don't give a sh*t about them- they only exist to make sure nobody's on the rob.

ShatterAlan · 12-10-2020 11:37am

GarIT wrote: »

I've seen it with my own eyes.

Forgive me if I don't believe you.

ShatterAlan · 12-10-2020 11:59am

Augeo wrote: »

In Dublin 2019...... https://www.housing.gov.ie/housing/homelessness/minister-murphy-publishes-winter-rough-sleeper-count-homeless-quarterly#:~:text=It%20represents%20a%2041%25%20decrease,lowest%20since%20Rebuilding%20Ireland%20began.

Winter Rough Sleeper Count

The Official Winter Rough Sleeper Count was carried out on the night of 26 November into the morning of 27 November 2019.
It represents a 41% decrease on Winter 2018 figure – a total of 92 persons are confirmed as rough sleeping across the Dublin region in Winter 2019 compared to 152 in 2018.

I fail to see how the persons conducting that count could have traversed every single, street, park, bridge, overpass, alleyway, etc. in the city in one night.

I counted 10 on Henry street alone many a orning. MAybe the people doing the counting know exactly where the rough sleepers sleep, I'm not disputing it but the figure does seem low. Maybe we think it's a lot higher because we see them on nearly every street that WE walk down but there might only be 10 or 20 main streets where the homeless sleep and we ourselves happen to walk those same streets.

Strumms · 12-10-2020 12:01pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Ask the premises so, maybe they aren't bothered by him

To be honest , they should be bothered if he is bothering customers in a borderline aggressive and intimidating manner. They can’t be oblivious it’s on their premises.

I can empathize, as it must be gravely difficult being in his situation but I know of one other guy who id regularly help out in the city who is just polite and not hassling people.

If I had a business on a property where somebody was using my premises, intimidating people and getting lippy with customers for not helping him the only thing he’d be getting is a one way ticket away from there.

ShatterAlan · 12-10-2020 12:05pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

How many are you putting up in your house?

Ah the old bullsh1t extreme choice argument again.

It's either give them nothing and sneer at them or give them everything you own, right?

Nothing in between, right?

corner of hells · 12-10-2020 12:09pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I fail to see how the persons conducting that count could have traversed every single, street, park, bridge, overpass, alleyway, etc. in the city in one night.

I counted 10 on Henry street alone many a orning. MAybe the people doing the counting know exactly where the rough sleepers sleep, I'm not disputing it but the figure does seem low. Maybe we think it's a lot higher because we see them on nearly every street that WE walk down but there might only be 10 or 20 main streets where the homeless sleep and we ourselves happen to walk those same streets.

That's the official DRHE rough sleepers count out twice a year.Its probably the most accurate count of all.Full time DCC staff, homeless service social care workers and experienced volunteers participate.
Its planned about six weeks or so in advance and around about a hundred + people count.
You are given specific areas to count in , you might be asked to count the GPO side of O Connell street and the streets/lane immediately behind it.
Another will count in neighbouring streets and lanes and so on.You only count in your specific area.
You also count people bedded down, evidence of somebody bedded down and if you meet someone you know is homeless through the area and very clearly differentiate what you say.

Obviously use your common sense and dont enter or count in a dangerous area.

It is by far the most accurate count.

You can volunteer or you may asked to take part.

ShatterAlan · 12-10-2020 3:15pm

MarkY91 wrote: »

I never said they were in any way to blame. I simply just can't understand how they're treated better than homeless Irish people.... In Ireland.

Would you like to explain why?

Edit: and please don't bring Syrian refugees into this if you want to go on a rant about fleeing a war torn county. Explain why a Gypsy from Eastern Europe is more important in Ireland than an Irish person.

Who says they are more important and what's this talk about them being "given" a house?

Nobody in Ireland just gets given a house.

ShatterAlan · 12-10-2020 3:28pm

MarkY91 wrote: »

Nobody can share an opinion these days without being some sort of "ist". PC culture has taken over.

Here's another "ist" for you......bullshit artist. It refers to someone who tries to maintain that people are just given houses to live in.

ShatterAlan · 12-10-2020 3:39pm

Nexytus wrote: »

I think the obvious solution would be to have some sort of means test and periodic assessment following on from which a Certificate of Authenticity is
issued. This would valid for a specified period and would have to be prominently
displayed at the begging site. Potential donors are allowed to examine the Certificate and put any questions they feel necessary to the prospective beggar.

This is fucking priceless.

So means test people to determine if they are legitimately destitute and when you determine the ones who are indeed rock bottom you don't actually give them state assistance you give them a fucking permit to beg.

Mind-blowing.

ShatterAlan · 12-10-2020 4:00pm

smellyoldboot wrote: »

So none then, save for one personal experience. Would it be fair to say, you recognised you had mental health issues and sought out help (regardless of how much help was actually received).

Is it not a bit fanciful to suggest the vast majority of long term unemployed are suffering from various complex mental health issues, without any concrete evidence or professional background? Some may well be.

It's equally valid therefore for me to suggest with my only professional experience having been a period of unemployment which I spent re-educating that a large percentage of people (not all) who remain endemically long term unemployed are in fact lazy and too dependent on the handout to sort their situation out.

You were asked a question, i.e. "what about the people with complex mental issues?"

EDIT: You weren't asked the question, but nonetheless you didn't contribute anything to answering it.
You didn't or couldn't answer the question but instead just said that a lot of these complex mental issues are imaginary or some such drivel. So the question remains "what about people with complex mental difficulties?"

Beggars sitting outside shops

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