The glorious 12th

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 12:02pm

lawred2 wrote: »

right - person doesn't see what they don't want to see - that's unusual

The Irish taxpayer happily funds the language as far as I can tell. Has anyone run on a platform of cutting the funding and succeeded?

As an aside, the Irish taxpayer also happily funds the Irish Language in the north, through Foras Na Gaelige.

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 12:04pm

downcow wrote: »

I think it’s a really important point janfebmar is making. If there was a genuine need or demand out there for Irish then Ryanair and the likes would be straight on to it.
This is important in ascertaining if it is something there is a demand for.

You can pick whatever private companies you like, I could mention a few to make the counter point. Tescos have bilingual signage in many of their stores.

Boards only has a small Irish section, but Twitter and Facebook both provide an Irish version of their site. I guess there is need of Irish after all.

The bigger point though is that we are only talking about private companies because some posters are trying to score a point. The actuall issue is about the language rights of our citizens. It is not an issue of need, the state has no great 'need' to respect your rights, or mine, but it has an obligation to do so.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 12:05pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Isn't he entitled to his opinion?especially as its actually his country that's being discussed?
If he wants NI to work that's fine and is the view of many people in other parts of the UK.I'd like to see NI remain part of the UK but I like the fact Ireland has prospered in the last 20-30 years-it is possible for both to exist side by side.

We can all want something to work, but the FACT is Rob that northern Ireland has never 'worked' for all it's people in the 100 years of it's existence. You can poll a 'sizeable amount' of people on that to confirm.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 12:07pm

downcow wrote: »

Lawred. I have been attempting to engage here, answer questions, find solutions, etc. You refuse to tell us even why you personally request signs in irish and you snipe with short digs instead of engaging

No you have not reaonably engaged, you are here to promote the OO, never give an inch, official position on the Irish Language and what they believe it stands for.

Pedro K · 17-07-2019 12:15pm

downcow wrote: »

I really appreciate this point Francie. I absolutely don't want people in NI feeling 'someone else is running the place'.
I think it is incumbent on unionists to engage with this issue and find is there a way to celebrate the IL for those who want to celebrate it but not rub it in the face of others - Nationalists need to honestly consider how they can take the heat out of it and reassure unionists. But this compromise would be a long long way short of the current demands

And you think that having both English and Irish on road signs would be the nationalists 'rubbing it in the face of others?'

RobMc59 · 17-07-2019 12:20pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We can all want something to work, but the FACT is Rob that northern Ireland has never 'worked' for all it's people in the 100 years of it's existence. You can poll a 'sizeable amount' of people on that to confirm.

You are entitled to your opinion but it's a British matter-the FACT is not everyone agrees with your "hurler on the ditch"comments regarding NI.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 12:24pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

You are entitled to your opinion but it's a British matter-the FACT is not everyone agrees with your "hurler on the ditch"comments regarding NI.

Ask a 'sizeable amount' in northern Ireland so. The answer and the fact will be the same.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 12:26pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

You are entitled to your opinion but it's a British matter-the FACT is not everyone agrees with your "hurler on the ditch"comments regarding NI.

And it isn't just a 'British' matter. Again the 'fact' is that there are commitments under the GFA and it's various supplementary agreements not to mention EU and UN expectations on language rights to be fulfilled.
The Orange Order/DUP position will not hold. You know that and so do I.

SusieBlue · 17-07-2019 12:28pm

janfebmar wrote: »

As someone who has travelled over all 32 counties for many decades, I cannot help but notice that virtually nobody uses Irish, and certainly nobody uses Irish if they have to pay for it.

That's not my experience at all. I live in Cork city, I am fluent as are my entire family.
In a 15 minute drive radius, there are about 9 Gaelscoil primary schools and 4 secondaries. In rural locations in the county, I know of at least 5/6 other schools.
Each of those schools has a couple of hundred students. Those students have parents who help them with their homework, who even if they can't speak Irish, they at least have the cúpla focail to help their kids.
I can comfortably state that by the age of 8/9, the children attending these schools are fluent in Irish. We can safely assume that the parents of these children have an interest in the language, even if they can't speak it themselves.

Each of these schools also has language classes for the community to get involved in. They have school plays, and fun days, and bake sales, through the medium of Irish, again involving the local community.

These schools are located in both working class/disadvantaged and middle class areas, so it isn't just certain sections of society involved either.

UCC, Cork Institute of Technology, & Cork College of Commerce (PLC college) all have active Irish language societies. Again, they organise events for both students and locals, promoting the language.

And that's without even touching on the independent groups and the people who choose to speak it at home of their own accord (I know people who do both).

The Irish language is alive and well in my community, and I don't even live in a rural/Gaeltacht area.
Its there if you know where to look. But there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

downcow · 17-07-2019 12:29pm

Pedro K wrote: »

And you think that having both English and Irish on road signs would be the nationalists 'rubbing it in the face of others?'

I just see it exactly the same as a union flag on a lamppost. Offensive to some but doesn’t bother many and some love them.
There could be room for both but we need to work on mutual understanding and respect first.

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 12:35pm

downcow wrote: »

Fair enough Pedro.
I will try to answer you.
My concerns and frustrations are
the IL has been used throughout the conflict by the IRA and other sectarian bigots to intimidate eg painting Tiocfaidh ar la (our day will come) on our churches, OO halls, schools, etc - I often arrived at school as a kid to find our windows broken and irish language painted on the walls - that is hard to shake off

Sinn Fein set up an IL class on the falls. The first speaker was Padraig O Maolchraoibhe, a Sinn Fein cultural officer and a teacher in Belfast. He told those present: "Every phrase you learn is a bullet in the freedom struggle." https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/sinn-fein-linguists-fired-bullet-into-language-of-our-politics-29994735.html

They also want an irish language act without giving us any idea what it means or the costs ie is it every road sign, will courtcases be allowed to be carried out in Irish with interpreters, will some jobs require it, etc, etc.

They want a commissioner who is accountable to no one - now who would that be and where would he take it.

We have minority groups here who cannot speak English. I was in a pub the other day and three separate groups were speaking in Chinese. If we are flush with cash should we not be doing practical steps to help them eg translate healt info, benifits, etc into these languages

and above all probaly the arrogance of IL speakers who know right well that it is a divisive issue but want to deal with it in isolation of other divisive issue eg flags

It will also clearly mark territory. Either the irish will only be up in nationalist areas or you will no what area you are in as to whether the signs are defaced or not - as is the case inmy Council area at the minute as the SF controlled council insists on put their signs in Irish ain areas the community don't want them.

hows tha for starters

A load of bollocks if you ask me.

Every step of the way the Orange state has tried to make life impossible for Irish seakers. Just take education, in the early days after partition Unionists decided to close down all Irish language schools in NI. Irish speakers were abused and discriminated against throughout the conflict and long before. You can talk about a SF member who said something during a speach, but what about the Unionists Ministers who decided to take away funding from Irish language schools and make it impossible for parents to educate their children through Irish? Years later, when the first Gaelscoil was opened in Belfast the only reason it was able to stay open in the early years was that the RUC could not go into the area to shut it down. It took years for the school to get official recognitation and funding. That kind of thing does not happen in a normal society. Unionism made an enemy of the Irish language early and made consistant efforts to undermine it. What do you think fules the protest movement so much? It's not just a bunch of SF members play acting, it is young prople who value the language as part of their lives who have had first hand experience of the discrimination that is regularly meeted out to Irish speakers by the northern state.

It is a devicive issue because Unionism has made it so, it is not arrogent of Irish speakers to push back against this constant abuse.

As for what an Irish Language act means or what it costs, if you don't know that then you are not listening, or worse you are listening to the lies of Unionist Polititions. What an ILA entails has clearly been spelled out by groups like Conradh na Gaeilge. Perhaps you should do some reading rather than merely parroting the talking points of the DUP.

armaghlad · 17-07-2019 12:35pm

downcow wrote: »

I am stunned by the stuff some people believe here.
Here’s one wee example in the last couple of days. And unlike your case it was with drink taken late at night. This one is just pure sectarian hate in the middle of the day.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-48968109

Are you trying to say these are the same?

firemansam4 · 17-07-2019 12:36pm

RobMc59 wrote:

You are entitled to your opinion but it's a British matter-the FACT is not everyone agrees with your "hurler on the ditch"comments regarding NI.

I'm not going to get into the whole Irish language debate here, but your posting itself is very provocative.

Many people who live in NI do not consider it to be a British matter.
NI and the ROI are linked in many areas such as culture and shared history and although it has been a troubled past people here on this forum whether they are from the south or the North are entitled to an opinion on it.
So stop trying to shut people down saying that it is just a British matter!

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 12:44pm

downcow wrote: »

One other problem with our starting points is

I love NI and really want NI to work. Therefore it is in my interests to try and ensure all people feel as comfortable as possible here.

Many on here despise the 'state-let' of NI and they want it to fail asap. Therefore you can hardly blame me for being suspicious when those people demand an Irish language act.

I also fully recognise the dangers of this for us all and for driving us apart - but i have no idea how we crack it

How exactly does an Irish language act threaten NI? I have heard Unionists claim that the Irish language is a threat to their Britishness, but cannot for the life of me understand how.

Do you think the Irish language is a threat to "Britishness" or to the union?

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 12:48pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't understand how the solution of a Minority Languages Act that contains provisions (that may be different to each other) to recognise and respect both Irish and Ulster Scots cannot be put in place.

Irish and Ulster Scots are two very different languages, with very different communities who which have very different needs. No-one ever seems to ask Ulster-Scots speakers if they want to be lumped into an act that does not reflect their needs. There seems to be an assumption that they only exist to temper the demands of Irish speakers.

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 12:50pm

firemansam4 wrote: »

I'm not going to get into the whole Irish language debate here, but your posting itself is very provocative.

Many people who live in NI do not consider it to be a British matter.
NI and the ROI are linked in many areas such as culture and shared history and although it has been a troubled past people here on this forum whether they are from the south or the North are entitled to an opinion on it.
So stop trying to shut people down saying that it is just a British matter!

Rob seems to be living in a pre-GFA world. Obviously Ireland, as a signatory to the peace agreements in NI, has a deep involvement in issues like this. The Irish language is one of the issues that comes directly under the remit of the agreements, one of the cross border bodies set up under the agreements is Foras na Gaeilge.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 12:53pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

How exactly does an Irish language act threaten NI? I have heard Unionists claim that the Irish language is a threat to their Britishness, but cannot for the life of me understand how.

Do you think the Irish language is a threat to "Britishness" or to the union?

downcow is here to spread the official Orange line I believe. His view is entirely consistent to this bizarre resolution.

We reaffirm opposition to the introduction of any legislation for the Irish language. Such a move would have detrimental consequences for our British identity and would be acknowledged as a landmark victory for Irish republicanism in the cultural war against our community.’

Note, that they are in opposition to ANY legislation.

http://www.bandparades.co.uk/archives/62421

armaghlad · 17-07-2019 12:55pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

How exactly does an Irish language act threaten NI? I have heard Unionists claim that the Irish language is a threat to their Britishness, but cannot for the life of me understand how.

Do you think the Irish language is a threat to "Britishness" or to the union?

Many unionists view their Britishness as having “cultural supremacy” over the fenians, so when you argue for things like designated days (like they have in Britain) and in this case language rights (like they have in Britain) it is somehow chipping away at their Britishness. They speak of a cultural war, the reality is the OO is (thankfully) shrinking in numbers, demographics are changing and the result is an increasing amount of perennially under siege insecure loyalists/unionists desperately trying to cling onto what they once had; while at the same time denying anything that can be remotely perceived as a concession to thenmuns (usually with some tedious link to the IRA)

downcow · 17-07-2019 1:04pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

A load of bollocks if you ask me.

Every step of the way the Orange state has tried to make life impossible for Irish seakers. Just take education, in the early days after partition Unionists decided to close down all Irish language schools in NI. Irish speakers were abused and discriminated against throughout the conflict and long before. You can talk about a SF member who said something during a speach, but what about the Unionists Ministers who decided to take away funding from Irish language schools and make it impossible for parents to educate their children through Irish? Years later, when the first Gaelscoil was opened in Belfast the only reason it was able to stay open in the early years was that the RUC could not go into the area to shut it down. It took years for the school to get official recognitation and funding. That kind of thing does not happen in a normal society. Unionism made an enemy of the Irish language early and made consistant efforts to undermine it. What do you think fules the protest movement so much? It's not just a bunch of SF members play acting, it is young prople who value the language as part of their lives who have had first hand experience of the discrimination that is regularly meeted out to Irish speakers by the northern state.

It is a devicive issue because Unionism has made it so, it is not arrogent of Irish speakers to push back against this constant abuse.

As for what an Irish Language act means or what it costs, if you don't know that then you are not listening, or worse you are listening to the lies of Unionist Polititions. What an ILA entails has clearly been spelled out by groups like Conradh na Gaeilge. Perhaps you should do some reading rather than merely parroting the talking points of the DUP.

A big long rant with very little substance and you are one of the many on here who would rather use you time telling me I should know why you want Irish language signs up rather that just telling me why you want them.

downcow · 17-07-2019 1:07pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

How exactly does an Irish language act threaten NI? I have heard Unionists claim that the Irish language is a threat to their Britishness, but cannot for the life of me understand how.

Do you think the Irish language is a threat to "Britishness" or to the union?

No not significantly

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 1:09pm

downcow wrote: »

I just see it exactly the same as a union flag on a lamppost. Offensive to some but doesn’t bother many and some love them.
There could be room for both but we need to work on mutual understanding and respect first.

You don't show respect by preventing the use of the Irish language in the public sphere. Unionist controlled councils have gotten themselves in trouble by trying to ban the use of Irish on street signs. There is very little evidence of any desire to engage or build mutual understanding and respect on the part of Unionism.

Unionism's message to the rest of the community, it seems, has never really moved beyond 'you surrender first and then we can get along'. Irish language rights is part of a society based on mutual understanding and respect. You don't get to ignore the issue, have your own way and call it mutual understanding and respect.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 1:09pm

downcow wrote: »

A big long rant with very little substance and you are one of the many on here who would rather use you time telling me I should know why you want Irish language signs up rather that just telling me why you want them.

In a supposedly equal society (and this is something belligerent Unionism STILL doesn't get) there is no onus to 'convince or persuade you'. That is arrogant Orangeism right there. And it you downcow, who will have his own nose 'rubbed in it' as it has been on every stand you guys have made in maintaining inequality.

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 1:10pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We can all want something to work, but the FACT is Rob that northern Ireland has never 'worked' for all it's people in the 100 years of it's existence. You can poll a 'sizeable amount' of people on that to confirm.

That is not a fact, that is your opinion, an opinion that belongs sometime in the late 1960s and is half a century out of date.

This is a really interesting academic piece that explores the Northern Irish identity:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1a7c/16bd314a13f746c61fbcc8005268771d6459.pdf

Some really good insights:

" Recent survey data supports this assertion, showing that Northern Irish is the most popular identity option among 18–24 year olds (ARK, 2015). Media reports have suggested that it is associated with a new, postconflict generation for whom the traditional conflict between British and Irish national identities is less salient, and other less political dimensions of division are more important (Belfast Telegraph, 2012, December 12). As such, it potentially constitutes a new emergent form of national identity that could both transcend previous conflict and form the basis for cross-community solidarity."

On Sinn Fein members that were interviewed the study had this to say:

"Their principal goal is to bring about a united Ireland, and so there is skepticism among members about an identity that is associated the Northern Ireland state. Only four out of 13 participants indicated any acceptance of a Northern Irish identity, and in all cases, this was heavily qualified. Several gave very short answers and simply rejected the authenticity of Northern Irishness entirely. One interviewee described their feelings on this identity as “Disaster. Fudge. Offensive.” Several claimed the identity was a divisive media creation that undermines Irishness in the north."

You can see the exact same attitudes time and again repeated across threads from certain posters on here.

This extract from a young person's response is particularly illuminating:

"Extract 1. “It’s not necessarily something that we wanted but we have it” [Focus Group 27]
1. I would consider myself to be Northern Irish rather than Irish. I don’t know…
2. I feel that I identify more with people from this area of the country, when you go
3. down south you don’t get treated like you’re from this country. You know rightly
4. when you go down south they treat you like you’re a northerner from the north, I just
5. don’t think we are the same and it’s not necessarily something that we wanted but we
6. have it"

I would recommend that anyone with any interest in exploring the Northern Irish identity and how and why people see themselves differently should read this study a couple of times.

armaghlad · 17-07-2019 1:11pm

blanch152 wrote: »

That is not a fact, that is your opinion, an opinion that belongs sometime in the late 1960s and is half a century out of date.

This is a really interesting academic piece that explores the Northern Irish identity:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1a7c/16bd314a13f746c61fbcc8005268771d6459.pdf

Some really good insights:

" Recent survey data supports this assertion, showing that Northern Irish is the most popular identity option among 18–24 year olds (ARK, 2015). Media reports have suggested that it is associated with a new, postconflict generation for whom the traditional conflict between British and Irish national identities is less salient, and other less political dimensions of division are more important (Belfast Telegraph, 2012, December 12). As such, it potentially constitutes a new emergent form of national identity that could both transcend previous conflict and form the basis for cross-community solidarity."

On Sinn Fein members that were interviewed the study had this to say:

"Their principal goal is to bring about a united Ireland, and so there is skepticism among members about an identity that is associated the Northern Ireland state. Only four out of 13 participants indicated any acceptance of a Northern Irish identity, and in all cases, this was heavily qualified. Several gave very short answers and simply rejected the authenticity of Northern Irishness entirely. One interviewee described their feelings on this identity as “Disaster. Fudge. Offensive.” Several claimed the identity was a divisive media creation that undermines Irishness in the north."

You can see the exact same attitudes time and again repeated across threads from certain posters on here.

This extract from a young person's response is particularly illuminating:

"Extract 1. “It’s not necessarily something that we wanted but we have it” [Focus Group 27]
1. I would consider myself to be Northern Irish rather than Irish. I don’t know…
2. I feel that I identify more with people from this area of the country, when you go
3. down south you don’t get treated like you’re from this country. You know rightly
4. when you go down south they treat you like you’re a northerner from the north, I just
5. don’t think we are the same and it’s not necessarily something that we wanted but we
6. have it"

I would recommend that anyone with any interest in exploring the Northern Irish identity and how and why people see themselves differently should read this study a couple of times.

Or you could just be like me and live there

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 1:12pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Irish and Ulster Scots are two very different languages, with very different communities who which have very different needs. No-one ever seems to ask Ulster-Scots speakers if they want to be lumped into an act that does not reflect their needs. There seems to be an assumption that they only exist to temper the demands of Irish speakers.

I don't have any particular gra for Ulster-Scots. If people are truly concerned about achieving parity of esteem for both communities and mutual respect of traditions, then a Minority Languages Act is the way to go. Anything else, either denying language rights or insisting on an Irish Language Act only, is an attempt by one or other side to oppress the other.

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 1:18pm

downcow wrote: »

A big long rant with very little substance and you are one of the many on here who would rather use you time telling me I should know why you want Irish language signs up rather that just telling me why you want them.

As I have said, language rights are part of a shared society. Since it's inception, unionism in NI has attacked the language rights of Irish speakers. You might call it a rant with little substance, but it is the problem that Irish speakers have faced, unionists in power denying them their rights.

The issue of language rights goes beyond the issue of signage, I'm not sure why you are focusing on that issue above all else, but the reason Irish speakers want to see Irish on signage is because they want to be able to have their culture and idnetity reflected in the public spaces around them. Irish is not the sole domain of one community or one political ideology, it is part of the herritage of everyone in NI. Denying this and creating a public space that suppresses this and does not allow the Irish language to be seen is clearly an attempt to marginalise and delegitimise the language and unfortunatly it seems that Unionism in the main is still committed to such efforts to marginalise the use of Irish.

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 1:22pm

armaghlad wrote: »

Or you could just be like me and live there

Not necessarily. There are so many people in the North and the border counties who are so far down in the trenches that they have dug that they cannot see the blue sky and the bright future of Northern Ireland.

Oftentimes, it is the perspective that outsiders or academics bring that enable us to see things clearly.

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 1:23pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't have any particular gra for Ulster-Scots. If people are truly concerned about achieving parity of esteem for both communities and mutual respect of traditions, then a Minority Languages Act is the way to go. Anything else, either denying language rights or insisting on an Irish Language Act only, is an attempt by one or other side to oppress the other.

I don't believe anyone who supports an Irish Language Act is insisting on an Irish language act only, or wishes to see language rights denyed to the speakers of Ulster-Scots. I, and I believe the vast majority of people who wish to see an Irish language act would have no problem with an Ulster-Scots Act that reflects the needs of that community, the question is weather or not that community themselves want an act, one should not be forced upon them becasue legislation is provided for Irish. The problem with having a Minority Languages Act is that it is a one size fits all aproch that will serve the needs of neither language.

A minority languages act is not the way to go and neither community actually wants one as far as I can see.

citytillidie · 17-07-2019 1:23pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Isn't he entitled to his opinion?especially as its actually his country that's being discussed?
If he wants NI to work that's fine and is the view of many people in other parts of the UK.I'd like to see NI remain part of the UK but I like the fact Ireland has prospered in the last 20-30 years-it is possible for both to exist side by side.

It is also my country and i fell it is a failed state with one half of the community been seen as 2nd class citizens for over 50 years and those who did run it do their hardest to try and keep the status quo instead of working towards a better future

downcow · 17-07-2019 1:24pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't have any particular gra for Ulster-Scots. If people are truly concerned about achieving parity of esteem for both communities and mutual respect of traditions, then a Minority Languages Act is the way to go. Anything else, either denying language rights or insisting on an Irish Language Act only, is an attempt by one or other side to oppress the other.

A couple of great posts there blanch but I don’t agree with this one.
People can deny it and condemn me for drawing comparisons but identity here is not symmetrical.
Language seems really important in nationalist thinking as does probable Irish dancing, fleadhs, gaa etc.
Unionist have little interest in many of these but are interested in music/bands, marching, orange culture, ww1 & ww2 history/commemoration and diversity eg broad range of sporting interests etc.
So to suggest a stand alone IL act is useful completely misses the point that language is of no interest to most unionist.
I can certainly support a well thought through and fair culture/identity act which amongst other ensure parity of funding of eg IL and marching bands.

downcow · 17-07-2019 1:26pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

As I have said, language rights are part of a shared society. Since it's inception, unionism in NI has attacked the language rights of Irish speakers. You might call it a rant with little substance, but it is the problem that Irish speakers have faced, unionists in power denying them their rights.

The issue of language rights goes beyond the issue of signage, I'm not sure why you are focusing on that issue above all else, but the reason Irish speakers want to see Irish on signage is because they want to be able to have their culture and idnetity reflected in the public spaces around them. Irish is not the sole domain of one community or one political ideology, it is part of the herritage of everyone in NI. Denying this and creating a public space that suppresses this and does not allow the Irish language to be seen is clearly an attempt to marginalise and delegitimise the language and unfortunatly it seems that Unionism in the main is still committed to such efforts to marginalise the use of Irish.

Would you accept signs up on designated days as has been done to the union flag in Belfast council. This might be a fair solution

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 1:28pm

downcow wrote: »

Would you accept signs up on designated days as has been done to the union flag in Belfast council. This might be a fair solution

Designated days was to bring NI into line with the rest of the UK on the flags issue. I would be happy to have NI brought into line with the rest of the UK on the issue of signage too.

On the issue of language, like so much else, it seems unionists really struggle with the idea of British Rights for British Citizens.

downcow · 17-07-2019 1:30pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Designated days was to bring NI into line with the rest of the UK on the flags issue. I would be happy to have NI brought into line with the rest of the UK on the issue of signage too.

On the issue of language, like so much else, it seems unionists really struggle with the idea of British Rights for British Citizens.

Stop answering the questions that aren’t asked and try answer exactly what is asked

downcow · 17-07-2019 1:31pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Designated days was to bring NI into line with the rest of the UK on the flags issue. I would be happy to have NI brought into line with the rest of the UK on the issue of signage too.

On the issue of language, like so much else, it seems unionists really struggle with the idea of British Rights for British Citizens.

I think you’ll find the vast majority of the UK does not have a language act. So yeah. Sounds good to me.

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 1:39pm

downcow wrote: »

Stop answering the questions that aren’t asked and try answer exactly what is asked

Was the idea of putting up signage on specific days a serious suggestion? If it was then I overestimated your intelligence.

Imreoir2 · 17-07-2019 1:41pm

downcow wrote: »

I think you’ll find the vast majority of the UK does not have a language act. So yeah. Sounds good to me.

I think you will find that in those parts of the UK where indigenous lanugages are a relevant issue, that they have legislative protection, except for NI. Why is NI the odd man out in the UK? Unionism!

_blaaz · 17-07-2019 1:42pm

downcow wrote: »

I think you’ll find the vast majority of the UK does not have a language act. So yeah. Sounds good to me.

Vast majority of uk isnt in ireland

Having irish signs in ireland deosnt seem unreasonable to me anyway

RobMc59 · 17-07-2019 1:50pm

citytillidie wrote: »

It is also my country and i fell it is a failed state with one half of the community been seen as 2nd class citizens for over 50 years and those who did run it do their hardest to try and keep the status quo instead of working towards a better future

I can see your point that there are a lot of people unhappy with the way things are.Like you say,people need to work towards a better future for all,agreed by the people of NI-NOT people from mainland Britain or Ireland.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 2:03pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

I can see your point that there are a lot of people unhappy with the way things are.Like you say,people need to work towards a better future for all,agreed by the people of NI-NOT people from mainland Britain or Ireland.

Aren't equality and parity of esteem the place to start.

Instead of the Orange Order led 'to be equal, you must first persuade us' nonsense we are listening to here.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 2:11pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Not necessarily. There are so many people in the North and the border counties who are so far down in the trenches that they have dug that they cannot see the blue sky and the bright future of Northern Ireland.

Oftentimes, it is the perspective that outsiders or academics bring that enable us to see things clearly.

Who are these people?

RobMc59 · 17-07-2019 2:20pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Aren't equality and parity of esteem the place to start.

Instead of the Orange Order led 'to be equal, you must first persuade us' nonsense we are listening to here.

Francie,I'm married to an Irish Catholic and have no problem with anyone's religious persuasion.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 2:24pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Francie,I'm married to an Irish Catholic and have no problem with anyone's religious persuasion.

What has it got to do with religion?

Here is the Orange resolution echoed by downcow on his soapOrangebox:

‘The Orange Institution remembers the Armistice centenary of November 1918 which signalled the end of the Great War. An estimated 200,000 Orangemen served in that terrible conflict. This Orange family paid a high price and we remember with gratitude the service and sacrifice made by so many of our brethren and sisters. We remember too, the price paid by our 336 members who died at the hands of terrorists during the Troubles. We again commit ourselves to perpetuating their memory and to ensuring that the perpetrators of these crimes against humanity will not be permitted to rewrite the history of that period. As uncertainty continues regarding the process of the United Kingdom leaving the European Union, we reaffirm our commitment to, and support of, maintenance of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We will resolutely oppose any development which politically, economically or culturally undermines the current constitutional position. We reaffirm opposition to the introduction of any legislation for the Irish language. Such a move would have detrimental consequences for our British identity and would be acknowledged as a landmark victory for Irish republicanism in the cultural war against our community.’

What business has an Order purportedly founded on the principles of 'civil and religious liberties' got 'resolving' to do the above?

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 2:42pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I don't believe anyone who supports an Irish Language Act is insisting on an Irish language act only, or wishes to see language rights denyed to the speakers of Ulster-Scots. I, and I believe the vast majority of people who wish to see an Irish language act would have no problem with an Ulster-Scots Act that reflects the needs of that community, the question is weather or not that community themselves want an act, one should not be forced upon them becasue legislation is provided for Irish. The problem with having a Minority Languages Act is that it is a one size fits all aproch that will serve the needs of neither language.

A minority languages act is not the way to go and neither community actually wants one as far as I can see.

I think you misunderstood my post as I am not proposing a one size fits all. Rather, I am suggesting an approach that recognises equality of tradition.

A Minority Languages Act may have an overarching approach but it may have differential provisions for different languages. For example, it might provide for road-signs in three languages, but only provide for schools through Irish.

I am not surprised that neither community actually wants a Minority Languages Act, each side is much more interested in securing a victory over the other.

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 2:46pm

downcow wrote: »

A couple of great posts there blanch but I don’t agree with this one.
People can deny it and condemn me for drawing comparisons but identity here is not symmetrical.
Language seems really important in nationalist thinking as does probable Irish dancing, fleadhs, gaa etc.
Unionist have little interest in many of these but are interested in music/bands, marching, orange culture, ww1 & ww2 history/commemoration and diversity eg broad range of sporting interests etc.
So to suggest a stand alone IL act is useful completely misses the point that language is of no interest to most unionist.
I can certainly support a well thought through and fair culture/identity act which amongst other ensure parity of funding of eg IL and marching bands.

I wasn't suggesting a stand-alone Irish Languages Act, I was suggesting a Minority Languages Act, that would deal generally with minority languages, and set out specific measures in respect of each language. That wouldn't have to be limited to Irish and Ulster-Scots, provision could be made for certain information leaflets to be in Polish for example.

On the issue of a culture/identity Act, that might be a good idea, to recognise certain cultural traditions around marches, flags, St. Patrick's Day, the 12th etc., and to appropriately legislate for those.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 2:47pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I think you misunderstood my post as I am not proposing a one size fits all. Rather, I am suggesting an approach that recognises equality of tradition.

A Minority Languages Act may have an overarching approach but it may have differential provisions for different languages. For example, it might provide for road-signs in three languages, but only provide for schools through Irish.

I am not surprised that neither community actually wants a Minority Languages Act, each side is much more interested in securing a victory over the other.

The tradition of Ulster Scots is nowhere near equal to that of the Irish Language.

It's an insult to anybody's intelligence to suggest they are.

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 2:49pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What has it got to do with religion?

Here is the Orange resolution echoed by downcow on his soapOrangebox:

What business has an Order purportedly founded on the principles of 'civil and religious liberties' got 'resolving' to do the above?

I really don't see your problem with that resolution. It is akin to the Catholic Church reaffirming and resolving to try and reverse the political acceptance of SSM and abortion. While I might not like the sentiment of the OO or the Catholic Church, they have every right to express a view and resolve to seek change.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 2:49pm

blanch152 wrote: »

each side is much more interested in securing a victory over the other.

Says a poster who has a legendary position on here of conceding nothing to nationalists or republicans.

FrancieBrady · 17-07-2019 2:53pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I really don't see your problem with that resolution. It is akin to the Catholic Church reaffirming and resolving to try and reverse the political acceptance of SSM and abortion. While I might not like the sentiment of the OO or the Catholic Church, they have every right to express a view and resolve to seek change.

Any organisation that pretends, and draws taxpayer support on the basis that they are primarily about 'civil and religious liberty' should be called out for the hypocrites they are when they say things like this:

We will resolutely oppose any development which politically, economically or culturally undermines the current constitutional position. We reaffirm opposition to the introduction of any legislation for the Irish language. Such a move would have detrimental consequences for our British identity and would be acknowledged as a landmark victory for Irish republicanism in the cultural war against our community.’

'We wish to maintain our identity by denying others theirs'? Civil and religious liberty my ass!

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 2:57pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The tradition of Ulster Scots is nowhere near equal to that of the Irish Language.

It's an insult to anybody's intelligence to suggest they are.

And where did I suggest that the tradition of Ulster Scots is equal to that of the Irish language? The revival of Ulster Scots is a much more recent phenonemon.

In fact, if you want to argue the legitimacy of minority languages, the languages that immigrants from Eastern Europe have brought with them arguably have a lot more legitimacy than either of the two revived languages. Irish died out in the North for whatever reason, and there were no native speakers left by the mid-1970s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language_in_Northern_Ireland

"The last speakers of varieties of Irish native to what is now Northern Ireland died in the 20th century."

Yes, it was being revived elsewhere at the same time, but the dialect used is mostly based on Donegal Irish.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Says a poster who has a legendary position on here of conceding nothing to nationalists or republicans.

Not worth responding to.

blanch152 · 17-07-2019 2:58pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Any organisation that pretends, and draws taxpayer support on the basis that they are primarily about 'civil and religious liberty' should be called out for the hypocrites they are when they say things like this:

'We wish to maintain our identity by denying others theirs'? Civil and religious liberty my ass!

Again, the Catholic Church gets money from the State, and wants to deny identity to the LGBTQ community. I don't like the OO, I don't like the Catholic Church, I don't agree with their positions on these issues, but unlike you, I won't deny them the right to have their views and express them.

The glorious 12th

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