Wretched election for Sinn Féin - what now?

McMurphy · 24-06-2019 2:58pm

amcalester wrote: »

Reads post, checks thread title, reads post again. Still can't see the relevance.

The relevance is......

Sinn Fein have experienced a collapse in their vote share in the local elections, the OP stated possible reasons for being responsible.

Problem being - serious lack of integrity from any of the alternatives.

24-06-2019 3:04pm

SF are an alternative

you spent most of your post speaking about incumbents

24-06-2019 3:05pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

We certainly seem to be incapable of governing ourselves anyway.

We just swap one bunch of chancing gougers for another in s revolving door system, with one crowd crowing about how rotten, corrupt and crooked the other are, until those at the helms are caught with their pants (or knickers) down.

and yet

*checks just to be sure*

its not a bad aul shpot if you take a moment to weigh up what you put in and what you get out of it.

amcalester · 24-06-2019 3:15pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

The relevance is......

Sinn Fein have experienced a collapse in their vote share in the local elections, the OP stated possible reasons for being responsible.

Problem being - serious lack of integrity from any of the alternatives.

SF are the alternatives? And yet their vote still collapsed.

I’m not, nor likely ever to be, a SF voter but if my experience of their canvassers are anything to go by I’m not surprised their support collapsed.

When I said I was not going to vote for them the canvasser immediately launched into a tirade against FF and how she could never vote for them. Good for you I thought but I’m not canvassing for FF.

Contrast that with the FF candidate I also told I wouldn't vote for who actually listened to my reasons and tried to convince me otherwise.

A much more pleasant experience. FF did quite well in my area.

Loafing Oaf · 24-06-2019 3:59pm

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

That wasn’t “my answer”. It was a question.

And yes they are. On abortion etc. SF used to have no policy now it’s a party whip pro abortion. Lots left after that.

And no, I’m not a core voter.

Well luckily we have a canary in the coalmine in the shape of Aontu for how SF would get on if it reverted to a pro-life position. Early days as yet of course but I doubt they'll have to be clearing a new suite of offices in the Dail for them after the next GE...

McMurphy · 24-06-2019 4:09pm

amcalester wrote: »

SF are the alternatives? And yet their vote still collapsed.

I’m not, nor likely ever to be, a SF voter but if my experience of their canvassers are anything to go by I’m not surprised their support collapsed.

When I said I was not going to vote for them the canvasser immediately launched into a tirade against FF and how she could never vote for them. Good for you I thought but I’m not canvassing for FF.

Contrast that with the FF candidate I also told I wouldn't vote for who actually listened to my reasons and tried to convince me otherwise.

A much more pleasant experience. FF did quite well in my area.

In my nearly twenty years of voting eligibility, I've never experienced what you described above when I informed a canvasser that I'd no intention of voting for them, quite the opposite in fact. I think it is drilled into people who tred the doorsteps not to spend too much time with people who either have said they have no intention of voting for you (lost cause) or who have said from the off, that they were already intending to vote for whoever you're canvassing for (already in the bag)

Apparently it's the people on the fence that they spend the most time with, trying to convince you why you're better off voting for his or her party, and all the promises etc that go with that.

Not saying what you described above didn't happen, (I believe you completely)

That canvasser sounded like a complete and utter plonker tbh.

_Kaiser_ · 24-06-2019 4:26pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

We certainly seem to be incapable of governing ourselves anyway.

We just swap one bunch of chancing gougers for another in s revolving door system, with one crowd crowing about how rotten, corrupt and crooked the other are, until those at the helms are caught with their pants (or knickers) down.

It's a valid point and one I've ranted on about here myself

The reason the same stuff keeps happening regardless of whose time at the wheel it is, is because the average Irish man/woman knows they'd do exactly the same things if they thought they'd get away with it/had the neck to do it.

We're too fond of the cute hoor, too quick to look for the loophole to avoid our responsibilities, and too accepting of the lazy half-assed "be grand" approach to pretty much everything run by us.

We only concern ourselves with what we can see from our front/back window and what the neighbours have/are getting away with that we're not.

The bigger picture is not a factor, nor is what's good for the long term. It's all "what's in it for me, NOW!"

I have said before that we weren't ready to be let at the controls of a nation and I think the events of the last hundred years would bear that out, not least because when we finally DID win our freedom from "de Brits" we couldn't give it over to the Church fast enough. Then when that mostly toxic influence wained in the late 80s and 90s, we quickly handed it off to Europe.

We seem to "need" to be told what to do, to have someone else to blame, and to be told what good citizens we are by our "betters" (hence why so much is made of how we're first to do X, or adopt Y - we crave that validation it seems).

To be fair, we haven't been at this national governance all that long really but as a small appendage/thorn to the large EU superstate, if we plan to have any sort of meaningful and effective place therein in the future, we need to all really "grow up" a bit I think.

amcalester · 24-06-2019 5:30pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

In my nearly twenty years of voting eligibility, I've never experienced what you described above when I informed a canvasser that I'd no intention of voting for them, quite the opposite in fact. I think it is drilled into people who tred the doorsteps not to spend too much time with people who either have said they have no intention of voting for you (lost cause) or who have said from the off, that they were already intending to vote for whoever you're canvassing for (already in the bag)

Apparently it's the people on the fence that they spend the most time with, trying to convince you why you're better off voting for his or her party, and all the promises etc that go with that.

Not saying what you described above didn't happen, (I believe you completely)

That canvasser sounded like a complete and utter plonker tbh.

I’d never experienced it before either which is why it stands out but it was also my only experience of a SF canvasser for this or any other election.

Saying that I do know quite a few people who have canvassed on behalf of SF and/or have stood for election and they are genuinely decent people, and outside of politics easy to talk to/get on with, but I’ve learned not to discuss politics with them because all that happens is they keep repeating the party line which can get tiresome. IMO they have very little understanding of the wider issues which is why they fall back to what they know, the party line. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, there are many politicians who would be better served by doing the same.

It’s just an observation and a reason why I think the vote fell this time.

super_furry · 24-06-2019 5:39pm

I think Sinn Fein really benefitted from associating themselves with the anti-water charges movement and got their last real election bounce on the back of that. Think it's going to be hard for them to replicate that set of circumstances and with them continuing to look so inept up North with the Northern assembly still inactive, it's going to be tough for them to win floating voters back.

_Kaiser_ · 24-06-2019 5:45pm

The problem with SF is that most of the people who would support them don't generally vote.

Everyone else knows that they're a protest group - useful for keeping the Big 2 in check but that's about all. No one would let them at the economic levers given their stated outlook on such matters.

Plus they think that people in the Republic consider the North and potential reunification as a core issue - they don't.. We have enough problems here that we can't effectively deal with as it is without taking those on as well.

Ursus Horribilis · 24-06-2019 5:55pm

I think the Green Party was a nicer protest vote option for people this time around. Voting for saving the planet is more feelgood than a party that still has a whiff of cordite about it.

Pintman Paddy Losty · 24-06-2019 6:47pm

Not surprised at all at their collapse if I'm honest.

SF are a spent docket at this stage. They totally mistepped with their message. No point appealing to the angry layabouts at a time when there's full employment and the economy is booming. FGs message to hardworking John and Joan Q Taxpayer who get up early in the morning obviously strikes a better chord. Exceptional result for them for a party that has already been in government for two terms.

I suppose people identify much more with the honest message the mainstream parties are offering.

Looking forward to the next GE. I can see FG leading a strong coalition with Greens and Labour. SF will suffer very badly if they don't sort out their crisis of identity. Too soft for the hardcore terrorist sympathisers and irrelevant to most everyone else.

Annasopra · 24-06-2019 7:00pm

Their "fighting for you" slogan really annoyed a lot of people too. I know some friends of mine who were ex pat Brits felt it was inapproproate as it was really a coded message about the IRA.

The other thing is SF tried to paint itself all along as a real alternative to FF and FG but recently they basically said they would be happy to govern alongside either.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 24-06-2019 7:19pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's a valid point and one I've ranted on about here myself

The reason the same stuff keeps happening regardless of whose time at the wheel it is, is because the average Irish man/woman knows they'd do exactly the same things if they thought they'd get away with it/had the neck to do it.

We're too fond of the cute hoor, too quick to look for the loophole to avoid our responsibilities, and too accepting of the lazy half-assed "be grand" approach to pretty much everything run by us.

We only concern ourselves with what we can see from our front/back window and what the neighbours have/are getting away with that we're not.

The bigger picture is not a factor, nor is what's good for the long term. It's all "what's in it for me, NOW!"

I have said before that we weren't ready to be let at the controls of a nation and I think the events of the last hundred years would bear that out, not least because when we finally DID win our freedom from "de Brits" we couldn't give it over to the Church fast enough. Then when that mostly toxic influence wained in the late 80s and 90s, we quickly handed it off to Europe.

We seem to "need" to be told what to do, to have someone else to blame, and to be told what good citizens we are by our "betters" (hence why so much is made of how we're first to do X, or adopt Y - we crave that validation it seems).

To be fair, we haven't been at this national governance all that long really but as a small appendage/thorn to the large EU superstate, if we plan to have any sort of meaningful and effective place therein in the future, we need to all really "grow up" a bit I think.

God almighty, this is one of the worlds most successful states.

James Brown · 24-06-2019 7:42pm

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Not surprised at all at their collapse if I'm honest.

SF are a spent docket at this stage. They totally mistepped with their message. No point appealing to the angry layabouts at a time when there's full employment and the economy is booming. FGs message to hardworking John and Joan Q Taxpayer who get up early in the morning obviously strikes a better chord. Exceptional result for them for a party that has already been in government for two terms.

I suppose people identify much more with the honest message the mainstream parties are offering.

Looking forward to the next GE. I can see FG leading a strong coalition with Greens and Labour. SF will suffer very badly if they don't sort out their crisis of identity. Too soft for the hardcore terrorist sympathisers and irrelevant to most everyone else.

I don't think anyone would trust either FF/FG IMO.
I think SF have the shady past and no in government record. This is a problem that can't be addressed. People will go for 'better the devil you know' every time. SF needs to get in as a junior partner and not be a patsy for FF/FG if the time comes.
I think if SF stick to calling out FF/FG they'll do alright for themselves. The arse will fall out of the economy at some point and they are head and shoulders above Labour. It'll be interesting to see what way the civil party and floating votes split now FF/FG are practically the one shower.

_Kaiser_ · 24-06-2019 8:41pm

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

God almighty, this is one of the worlds most successful states.

Define "Successful". In addition to the points I previously called out, we have:

- Massive structural issues in Health and over-reliance on Housing leading to perpetual crisis in both

- Corruption, waste and incompetence is the norm in the ruling parties. No-one ever pays for it in any meaningful way though

- Speaking of paying for it, let's not forget the massive social damage done by the cheapest-bailout-EVAR - which we're still seeing the effects of years on and will do for a long time yet (the debt hasn't gone away y'know! Just wait till the next crisis hits)

- An economy that depends highly on FDI and Multinationals which could move in the morning. What then? We all become farmers?

- Piss-poor infrastructure (particularly public transport) outside of Dublin and the larger towns

- Completely unbalanced tax system where those on either end of the scale pay the least, or nothing at all

- Aging population because the middle segment above can't afford to have and support kids. Massive pension crisis ahead

- Significant personal debt levels. Those 191 cars you see everywhere aren't bought for cash in most cases. PCP finance FTW :rolleyes:

Those are just the "highlights". I wouldn't be believing the "boom is back baby!" spin as readily if I were you.

24-06-2019 8:57pm

there's a tiny gap between "the boom is back" and "irish people are pathologically incapable of running the country"

in that tiny gap theres about four odd million people enjoying a very good quality of life with a modicum of self-involved discretion involved.

not all will own their own property, which is overvalued in this economy.

not all will be healthy.

not all will maintain any type of reasonable perspective on their quality of life versus most other places at most other times

all three of the above are normal.

_blaaz · 24-06-2019 9:20pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

not all will own their own property, which is overvalued in this economy.

not all will be healthy.

not all will maintain any type of reasonable perspective on their quality of life versus most other places at most other times

all three of the above are normal.

The fact that all three above are coupled with little to no pension plans isnt normal.....all your doing is storing up an insurmontable housing crisis for generation

Where will these people.go upon retirement??

given fg tendancy to see tenament type dwellings as a solution....deos this mean i have an old victorian style poorhouse to look forward to when i retire??

Do you foresee any viable solutions?

24-06-2019 9:35pm

_blaaz wrote: »

The fact that all three above are coupled with little to no pension plans isnt normal.....all your doing is storing up an insurmontable housing crisis for generation

Where will these people.go upon retirement??

given fg tendancy to see tenament type dwellings as a solution....deos this mean i have an old victorian style poorhouse to look forward to when i retire??

Do you foresee any viable solutions?

yeah. get a pension.

?

_blaaz · 24-06-2019 9:41pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

yeah. get a pension.

?

Mate....if people cant afford a mortgage with the way rents are(or any reasonable lifestlye)....how do you propose they afford a pension

This is pure and utter shinnernomics nonsense.....theres no such thing as money trees

wiggle16 · 24-06-2019 9:44pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Define "Successful"

Naturally enough you are taking the word successful to mean something akin to perfect or egalitarian.

Among most of the world's nation-states Ireland would be considered to be an extremely successful one by most standards. It is the exact opposite of a failed state. There's your definition.

We'd had a century of uninterrupted democracy, right since independence, which is more than can be said for most other European countries. Our constitution mandates referenda for major changes to the law. We have a level of press freedom many, many other nations would envy. We have not involved ourselves in foreign conflicts. We became one of the wealthiest countries on the planet without having had a colonial empire or exploiting weaker nations.

No one is buying the spin. Ireland has a LOT of problems, problems which should not exist and which we could fix if we really tried and the political will was there and the vested interests weren't - we have a lot of problems which are not acceptable. But we are not Eritrea. As countries go, we are one of the most successful when you think of how far we have come.

- Massive structural issues in Health and over-reliance on Housing leading to perpetual crisis in both

How can you have an over-reliance on "housing"? What is that supposed to mean? And how has it led to the housing crisis?

- Corruption, waste and incompetence is the norm in the ruling parties. No-one ever pays for it in any meaningful way though

Just like in every other country on this planet. Hardly a measure of success.

- An economy that depends highly on FDI and Multinationals which could move in the morning. What then? We all become farmers?

Yes, Kaiser. What will we do when they leave? No, what will we actually do?
You're unbelievable. You think it's bad that we have been very good at attracting foreign investment and therefore are not a nation of farmers and that it is a bad thing because... otherwise we would be farmers??
We're an island with no native industries that could compete with those of other nations.

- Piss-poor infrastructure (particularly public transport) outside of Dublin and the larger towns

Agreed. But this is much the same as most developed countries. There will always be a higher index for infrastructure in urban areas.

- Completely unbalanced tax system where those on either end of the scale pay the least, or nothing at all

This is actually laughable. We have higher than average taxes on incomes over 100k. And how is it "unbalanced" if the people at the lower end of the scale pay the least? That's how a progressive tax system is supposed to work. Honestly like, what are you on about?
Our tax system leaves a lot wanting for those on middling incomes. But that's not because taxes are too low "on either end of the scale". FFS.

- Aging population because the middle segment above can't afford to have and support kids. Massive pension crisis ahead

Oh yeah... and remind me, how did Germany, France and Japan solve their demographic senescence problems?
Are you under the impression Irish people are at fault for getting old and living longer?
This is a problem for every single developed nation. It's not because people can't afford to have and support kids - look how many people have kids who can't afford to. It's because people leave having kids til later in order to make more time for education and establishing themselves. It's not uniquely Irish nor it is a sign of a poorly run country.

Ireland is ****ed up in a lot of ways, a lot of unacceptable ways. But we are still miles ahead of many, many other nations. Let go of the self-loathing and the inferiority complex. It doesn't suit us anymore.

24-06-2019 9:52pm

_blaaz wrote: »

Mate....if people cant afford a mortgage with the way rents are(or any reasonable lifestlye)....how do you propose they afford a pension

This is pure and utter shinnernomics nonsense.....theres no such thing as money trees

heh yeah im pure shinner

poster wanted personal later life budgeting advice and got it.

it was totally unrelated to any point made hitherto.

it was an attempt to reinforce that things are awful. they arent.

who's the shinner?

_blaaz · 24-06-2019 10:06pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

it was totally unrelated to any point made hitherto.

it was an attempt to reinforce that things are awful. they arent.

Do you not think its pure short termism and storing up a massive problem for 25 to 30 years down the tracks....what your promotong as normal or acceptable???

Its lunacy you think whats going on is ok

who's the shinner?

Only one of us promoting econmic and socially unsound ideas??

Thinking people who cant barely afford rent or bills can magic up money for a pension fund is delusion on a scale rarely.seen anywhere......like i said shinnernomics....no such thing as magic money

24-06-2019 10:10pm

again:

someone claims ireland is a disaster zone

this is questioned

you select three problems and predict youll end up in a tenement and ask me what to do about it

i give the best advice i can given my knowledge of the problem as sketched out

now you're upset and im a shinner

its debs night all over again and i still dont know what ive done wrong

Pintman Paddy Losty · 24-06-2019 10:13pm

Wiggle you're a man talking an awful lot of sense.

Don't expect any coherent or rational answers though. Patrons here spout out rubbish cliches without much though on a regular basis.

Over-reliance on housing.... That has to be the best one yet.

_blaaz · 24-06-2019 10:15pm

you select three problems and predict youll end up in a tenement and ask me what to do about it

i give the best advice i can given my knowledge of the problem as sketched out

now you're upset and im a shinner

Like i said....what your promoting as normal...it simply isnt....its pure short termism

Yous think advising people who can barely afford rent or bills to open a pension plan as a solution (ie magic money)....

with no regard for where this money comes from (how,like???)......its the same with leftist nonsense the world over,thinking people can spend money what simply deosnt exist and thinking this is normal :pac:

25-06-2019 12:22am

yes look ive repeated where my suggestion came from and you are determined to act upset, ignore the substance of my response (you are claiming the sky is falling in- thats the actual leftist nonsense fyi) and are focusing on your outrage that the biographical financial details you provided dont really allow for anyone to give you a personalised route to geriatric wealth

and you keep calling me a shinner on the back of it.

now look, im trying to be awfully good around here, but cmere to me......are you *sure* its really me you're upset at?

blanch152 · 25-06-2019 12:24am

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Ah, just spotted this thread.

We are in a sorry state of affairs politically these day's.

Local level - we have SF who performed woefully in the elections.

Labour are still a zombie party.

FF (who FG keep reminding us wrecked the place) have FG by the short and curlies - FG not even allowed to turn a sweet in their mouths with out FF giving them permission to do so.

FG have recently been exposed as a crowd who seem to be fond of spurious insurance claims, despite knowing the same compo culture has been responsible for decimating lots of small and medium businesses due to crippling insurance premiums (ditto for private individuals and their car premium's)

Now it appears Leo, fresh after launching a report to establish the finer details of Ms Bailey's insurance claim (and if Josepha Madigan had any input or involvement in same) the bloody report seems to have evolved into who leaked the story, rather than the story itself. This is despite Leo recently launching a campaign encouraging people to "leak" info on people they suspect of playing the system within our social welfare services.

Bit hypocritical of you Leo, if I do say so.

It's like they learned absolutely nothing from Maurice McCabe, as they seem to want to bury the story and root out the whistleblower as opposed to deal with the story itself and root out what looks like corruption and fraud.

I tell ye, the whole of place has gone to hell in a handcart.

If the biggest problem that you can find is one TD making a compensation claim, this country must be in a great place.

Even in a thread about Sinn Fein, you seem to find a way to bring in your current hobby horse.

Next thing you will be posting a picture of FG social media bots.

blanch152 · 25-06-2019 12:29am

amcalester wrote: »

I’d never experienced it before either which is why it stands out but it was also my only experience of a SF canvasser for this or any other election.

Saying that I do know quite a few people who have canvassed on behalf of SF and/or have stood for election and they are genuinely decent people, and outside of politics easy to talk to/get on with, but I’ve learned not to discuss politics with them because all that happens is they keep repeating the party line which can get tiresome. IMO they have very little understanding of the wider issues which is why they fall back to what they know, the party line. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, there are many politicians who would be better served by doing the same.

It’s just an observation and a reason why I think the vote fell this time.

I have had similar experiences with SF canvassers. Some of them seem to have an almost evangelical belief in the correctness of their cause and when you suggest you won't be voting for them, you get this kind of reaction.

25-06-2019 12:39am

weve a fella at work and you cant wait beside him for the kettle to boil but its shinnerganda

hes an idiot and hes unpleasantly aggressive but he does in fairness fill the kettle for the next person so id probably give him a third pref

Wretched election for Sinn Féin - what now?

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