Wretched election for Sinn Féin - what now?

JohnnyFlash

I was listening to a podcast on the way back from the golf course this afternoon. They were discussing the disastrous election performance of SF - losing 2 of their 3 European Parliament; overall share of the vote dropping below 10%; representation more than halved in Dublin, losing 78 seats overall in the elections. It would be almost wipeout if the results were to be repeated in the General Elections.

So what next for Mary Lou and SF? Has the continued sexual abuse cover-ups damaged them? Are they missing the whiff of sulphur and semtex that men like Adams and McGuinness gave off? Is the incompetent shítshow up North a sign that they are nothing more than a party of megaphone diplomacy, with any real signs of leadership showing them up as the proverbial 'hurlers on the ditch'? Are they now a party ran by a South Dublin elite (O'Broin, McDonald etc) who don't have a clue what their core vote actually wants?

Kivaro

Apparently, according to the Sinn Fein analysis after the election, they were surprised by the electoral devastation. They said that they were not hearing negative sentiments at the door steps.
Their strategy going forward, according to this Sinn Fein official, is to make themselves appear less angry and less confrontational. "A kinder, gentler, Sinn Fein party". (My quote). I believe that they have to do a great deal more than that.

There are a number of reasons why voters are disenchanted with them. One, which is not being discussed by Sinn Fein, is their migration open door policy. Core Sinn Fein voters deserted the party due to this ludicrous policy. Many of their supporters are now competing with non-EU migrants for social welfare/housing/health resources. It just does not make sense.

mikemac2

Kivaro wrote: »

There are a number of reasons why voters are disenchanted with them. One, which is not being discussed by Sinn Fein, is their migration open door policy. Core Sinn Fein voters deserted the party due to this ludicrous policy. Many of their supporters are now competing with non-EU migrants for social welfare/housing/health resources. It just does not make sense.

But that policy isn’t new. 15 years ago they preached open borders and didn’t have these three disastrous elections in a row

Maybe it’s a reason sure but it’s not like the party suddenly brought it in when they changed leader

JohnnyFlash

Deleted User wrote: »

Wrong thread, Bart.

EmmetSpiceland

They currently look like a loosely affiliated group who have lost their purpose. The North is going to hell in a hand basket and they could have played a part in stopping that but their “protest” vote in the UK left the door open for the DUP to get centre stage. They probably would have won a tonne of support if they’d done something there.

Another major issue is the bullying that is rife within the party. I know a lad who would a staunch party supporter and he loves nothing more than to brush off all of the continuing reports as the actions of “malcontents” and “disgruntled” members. It’s disgusting.

I, for one, believe that the electorate no longer sees SF as a credible alternative anymore. Still too many of the “old guard” hanging around with direct links to terrorism and the new breed just seem to spout looney economic policies that could never actually work.

Then there’s the issue that the powers they represent are no longer really fighting for any freedom, or a United Ireland, just over drug dealing “territories” and other criminal enterprises. It’s an absolute shambles.

zimmermania

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

I was listening to a podcast on the way back from the golf course this afternoon. They were discussing the disastrous election performance of SF - losing 2 of their 3 European Parliament; overall share of the vote dropping below 10%; representation more than halved in Dublin, losing 78 seats overall in the elections. It would be almost wipeout if the results were to be repeated in the General Elections.

So what next for Mary Lou and SF? Has the continued sexual abuse cover-ups damaged them? Are they missing the whiff of sulphur and semtex that men like Adams and McGuinness gave off? Is the incompetent shítshow up North a sign that they are nothing more than a party of megaphone diplomacy, with any real signs of leadership showing them up as the proverbial 'hurlers on the ditch'? Are they now a party ran by a South Dublin elite (O'Broin, McDonald etc) who don't have a clue what their core vote actually wants?

Maybe the collective lying about the average industrial wage made a lot of voters finally realise that a collective bunch of liars might not be fit to govern.

wiggle16

They would do better to look at who they lost out to in each area. I know it's a truism but the people who were elected were obviously offering voters something SF weren't. That's what it boils down to.

That and Mary-Lou's constant sense of outrage is wearing thin. She goes OTT over (relatively) "minor" issues, especially when addressing Varadkar in the Dáil, to the point where she can't act any more outraged when it comes to bigger issues.

Something I have noticed over the years is that Mary-Lou seems to rub women up the wrong way especially, I don't mean that to sound sexist but there seems to be something very unlikeable about her to women in particular. I don't think this has much to do with the result because it's not a new thing, but I live in her constituency and a lot of women I know can't stand her. And they wouldn't even be very politically minded.

I was never a SF supporter, but my indifference to them was cooling towards the end of Gerry's leadership. I was on the way to maybe giving them a vote some day in the near future. (Their local candidate in my area is actually decent and a doer tbf)

However, Mary Lou has just turned me against any notion of supporting them. I know a lot of opposition TDs do it, but Mary Lou speaks in sensationalist soundbytes way too much for my own tastes. Everything is a travesty, an outrage, deplorable, and while I do like politicians to be passionate, it's their actions more than their words I judge.

I don't know what SF are doing, and it's hard to tell what they actually stand for these days. My feelings have nothing to do with Mary Lou being a woman, just her being a very poor opposition leader.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Haven’t they become a bit sjw and socially liberal for their core vote

Water John

Daniel McConnell writes on them changing tack during the week. Going all soft and dropping the angst.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/columnists/daniel-mcconnell/surely-this-isnt-right-sinn-fein-going-all-fluffy-and-light-932259.html

wiggle16

Deleted User wrote: »

My feelings have nothing to do with Mary Lou being a woman, just her being a very poor opposition leader.

If that was with reference to my post, then just to be clear, I'm not saying it's because she's a woman that she is like this. It was more of an observation that in my experience she doesn't seem to be popular with women, for whatever reason. Just something I've noticed and it might not be of any consequence in the grand scheme of things.

But I completely agree with the rest of your post. I remember thinking at the time that she behaved very poorly at the PAC with Angela Kerins, rightly or wrongly, and she seems to have stayed in that gear up until now.

i dont think pearse doherty as their finance guy has hurt them enough tbh, because he knows slightly more about economics and finance than the guy on the street.

thats a bad reflection of the guy on the street.

a loose affiliation of permanently outraged moaners who might be moving away from the cordite but are also consequently without an iota of achievement themselves.

their priorities as shown by actions where they have power are keeping the housing situation where it is

their priorities as shown by words couldnt be further from those of the working class

they peaked as a result of a one-off confluence of gerry/martin approval when the north was working out while at the same time ff died a death here

theyve none of that now and the likes of o'broin terrifies most voters.


mary lou novelty is gone years ago. people dont want thickheaded sledging in the dail and she has offered nothing else.

back down toward 12% id say and no harm

JohnnyFlash

There's a limited appeal in the politics of berating people, while offering little more than bland soundbites and populist 'solutions' in return. That's one of the issues that is easily identified. It appeals to a small coterie of malcontents and ne'er do wells - most of them found holding fort on places like twitter and the journal giving out about everything; while failing to recognise they live in one of the last bastions of social democracy. The 'seen and done' merchants. It doesn't pass muster with the sort of people who contribute most to the coffers of the State.

I also think that some of the appeal of SF to these sorts was the sense of danger and thuggery off the party. That much of the machinations of the party were carried out in smokey rooms in the back of pubs in Belfast. Now it's a party with figureheads (Eoin Ó Broin, Mary Lou McDonald for example) who grew up in enormous privilege in Dublin, and who dictate policy like they are speaking to a crowd of famished proles.

Oh, and Mary Lou has a voice like a fúcking foghorn amplified through a megaphone.

wiggle16

wiggle16 wrote: »

If that was with reference to my post, then just to be clear, I'm not saying it's because she's a woman that she is like this. It was more of an observation that in my experience she doesn't seem to be popular with women, for whatever reason. Just something I've noticed and it might not be of any consequence in the grand scheme of things.

But I completely agree with the rest of your post. I remember thinking at the time that she behaved very poorly at the PAC with Angela Kerins, rightly or wrongly, and she seems to have stayed in that gear up until now.

Oh no it wasn't at all. I actually made my own post without having a decent read of others first. I was merely pre-empting any response which might suggest that's why I don't like Mary Lou.

I love women, my own mother is one.

Loafing Oaf

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Haven’t they become a bit sjw and socially liberal for their core vote

The 'core vote' that amounted to 1-2% of the electorate up to 2002? Is the Lynn Boylan who lost her Euro seat in 2019 any more 'SJW/socially liberal' than the one who topped the poll in Dublin in 2014?

Boggles

Kivaro wrote: »

is their migration open door policy.

3 posts in, is that a record?

Annasopra

I think that there are various reasons for Sinn Feins poor performance

1 upto now has always benefited from an angry electorate. The electorate in 2009, 2011, 2014, 2016 was angry; angry at unemployment, angry at pension fund losses, angry at the economic crash, angry at austerity, angry at water charges. This time out - overall the anger wasnt there; there is a small amount of anger about housing but nothing like what water charges was. The working class estates where this anger manifested mostly simply didnt come out to vote.

2 A lot of their former councillors who left for reasons of bullying ran as independents and won seats. They didnt lose 78 council seats overnight. They lost about 20 or 30 since 2014

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

The 'core vote' that amounted to 1-2% of the electorate up to 2002? Is the Lynn Boylan who lost her Euro seat in 2019 any more 'SJW/socially liberal' than the one who topped the poll in Dublin in 2014?

The 1-2% obviously isn’t the modern post financial crash of 2008 vote.

The question is why they fell recently.

blanch152

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I think that there are various reasons for Sinn Feins poor performance

1 upto now has always benefited from an angry electorate. The electorate in 2009, 2011, 2014, 2016 was angry; angry at unemployment, angry at pension fund losses, angry at the economic crash, angry at austerity, angry at water charges. This time out - overall the anger wasnt there; there is a small amount of anger about housing but nothing like what water charges was. The working class estates where this anger manifested mostly simply didnt come out to vote.

2 A lot of their former councillors who left for reasons of bullying ran as independents and won seats. They didnt lose 78 council seats overnight. They lost about 20 or 30 since 2014

That's a pretty accurate summation.

It is compounded by the perception that they are always against everything, that there isn't a single positive proposal in what they are saying. Their taxation policy looks like an attempt to tax rainbows, unicorns and other difficult targets. That means that they can't credibly explain how they will fund the billions needed for their spending promises to fix every problem that people complain about.

A policy of build more social housing for example, needs to be explained by where is the money coming from, the land, the construction workers, etc. but also how it will deliver more quickly and better than the existing solutions being put in place. That absence of detail makes them look amateur.

Loafing Oaf

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

The 1-2% obviously isn’t the modern post financial crash of 2008 vote.

The question is why they fell recently.

And your answer to that question is an excess of social liberalism. And I'm asking are they any more socially liberal now than when they were on the up five or ten years ago. Also, is there any solid evidence that that sort of politics is a turn-off for the 'angry working classes' I presume you're identifying as their core vote.

Kivaro

mikemac2 wrote: »

But that policy isn’t new. 15 years ago they preached open borders and didn’t have these three disastrous elections in a row

Maybe it’s a reason sure but it’s not like the party suddenly brought it in when they changed leader

They've preached open borders for a lot longer than 15 years, but it's only recently that the de facto open border situation that we have in this country is now affecting Sinn Fein voters e.g. look at the situation of non-EU economic migrants on the housing list in Dublin. 20% of the "homeless" families in Dublin are coming from places like Africa and Pakistan, and they are competing with locals for the limited social housing in the region. Families flying into Dublin and immediately declaring themselves homeless because they know that they will get one of the free homes that the Irish worker is paying Billions to build is wrong on so many levels.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

And your answer to that question is an excess of social liberalism. And I'm asking are they any more socially liberal now than when they were on the up five or ten years ago. Also, is there any solid evidence that that sort of politics is a turn-off for the 'angry working classes' I presume you're identifying as their core vote.

That wasn’t “my answer”. It was a question.

And yes they are. On abortion etc. SF used to have no policy now it’s a party whip pro abortion. Lots left after that.

And no, I’m not a core voter.

EmmetSpiceland

wiggle16 wrote: »

That and Mary-Lou's constant sense of outrage is wearing thin. She goes OTT over (relatively) "minor" issues, especially when addressing Varadkar in the Dáil, to the point where she can't act any more outraged when it comes to bigger issues.

She’s started to come across as a mithered old crone at this stage. And she couldn’t be more than 50, right?

JohnnyFlash

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

She’s started to come across as a mithered old crone at this stage. And she couldn’t be more than 50, right?

She never comes across well on the radio - her tendency to talk down at people emerges within seconds. You’d have to wonder if their decision to force a presidential election was a wise one as well. Lot of huge missteps at the moment. A party in crisis.

ohnonotgmail

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

She’s started to come across as a mithered old crone at this stage. And she couldn’t be more than 50, right?

Only just turned 50. She does come across as very condescending. A poor choice for leader.

McMurphy

Ah, just spotted this thread.

We are in a sorry state of affairs politically these day's.

Local level - we have SF who performed woefully in the elections.

Labour are still a zombie party.

FF (who FG keep reminding us wrecked the place) have FG by the short and curlies - FG not even allowed to turn a sweet in their mouths with out FF giving them permission to do so.

FG have recently been exposed as a crowd who seem to be fond of spurious insurance claims, despite knowing the same compo culture has been responsible for decimating lots of small and medium businesses due to crippling insurance premiums (ditto for private individuals and their car premium's)

Now it appears Leo, fresh after launching a report to establish the finer details of Ms Bailey's insurance claim (and if Josepha Madigan had any input or involvement in same) the bloody report seems to have evolved into who leaked the story, rather than the story itself. This is despite Leo recently launching a campaign encouraging people to "leak" info on people they suspect of playing the system within our social welfare services.

Bit hypocritical of you Leo, if I do say so.

It's like they learned absolutely nothing from Maurice McCabe, as they seem to want to bury the story and root out the whistleblower as opposed to deal with the story itself and root out what looks like corruption and fraud.

I tell ye, the whole of place has gone to hell in a handcart.

Jupiter Mulligan

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Ah, just spotted this thread.

We are in a sorry state of affairs politically these day's.

Local level - we have SF who performed woefully in the elections.

Labour are still a zombie party.

FF (who FG keep reminding us wrecked the place) have FG by the short and curlies - FG not even allowed to turn a sweet in their mouths with out FF giving them permission to do so.

FG have recently been exposed as a crowd who seem to be fine of spurious insurance claims, despite knowing the same compo culture has been responsible for decimating lots of small and medium businesses due to crippling insurance premiums (ditto for private individuals and their car premium's)

Now it appears Leo, fresh after launching a report to establish the finer details of Ms Bailey's insurance claim (and if Josepha Madigan had any input or involvement in same) the bloody report seems to have evolved into who leaked the story, rather than the story itself. This is despite Leo recently launching a campaign encouraging people to "leak" info on people they suspect of playing the system within our social welfare services.

Bit hypocritical of you Leo, if I do say so.

It's like they learned absolutely nothing from Maurice McCabe, as they seem to want to bury the story and root out the whistleblower as opposed to deal with the story itself and root out what looks like corruption and fraud.

I tell ye, the whole of place has gone to hell in a handcart.

Perhaps it's time that the Roman Catholic Church was brought back into the fold and asked to run the country properly. That would get rid of all this LBGT+ and Global Warming nonsense for starters. And Zapper would be sent to a Magdalene Laundry to reflect on her sins.

ohnonotgmail

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

Perhaps it's time that the Roman Catholic Church was brought back into the fold and asked to run the country properly. That would get rid of all this LBGT+ and Global Warming nonsense for starters. And Zapper would be sent to a Magdalene Laundry to reflect on her sins.

:rolleyes:

McMurphy

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

Evidently it's time that the Roman Catholic Church was brought back into the fold and asked to run the country properly.

We certainly seem to be incapable of governing ourselves anyway.

We just swap one bunch of chancing gougers for another in s revolving door system, with one crowd crowing about how rotten, corrupt and crooked the other are, until those at the helms are caught with their pants (or knickers) down.

amcalester

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Ah, just spotted this thread.

We are in a sorry state of affairs politically these day's.

Local level - we have SF who performed woefully in the elections.

Labour are still a zombie party.

FF (who FG keep reminding us wrecked the place) have FG by the short and curlies - FG not even allowed to turn a sweet in their mouths with out FF giving them permission to do so.

FG have recently been exposed as a crowd who seem to be fond of spurious insurance claims, despite knowing the same compo culture has been responsible for decimating lots of small and medium businesses due to crippling insurance premiums (ditto for private individuals and their car premium's)

Now it appears Leo, fresh after launching a report to establish the finer details of Ms Bailey's insurance claim (and if Josepha Madigan had any input or involvement in same) the bloody report seems to have evolved into who leaked the story, rather than the story itself. This is despite Leo recently launching a campaign encouraging people to "leak" info on people they suspect of playing the system within our social welfare services.

Bit hypocritical of you Leo, if I do say so.

It's like they learned absolutely nothing from Maurice McCabe, as they seem to want to bury the story and root out the whistleblower as opposed to deal with the story itself and root out what looks like corruption and fraud.

I tell ye, the whole of place has gone to hell in a handcart.

Reads post, checks thread title, reads post again. Still can't see the relevance.

McMurphy

amcalester wrote: »

Reads post, checks thread title, reads post again. Still can't see the relevance.

The relevance is......

Sinn Fein have experienced a collapse in their vote share in the local elections, the OP stated possible reasons for being responsible.

Problem being - serious lack of integrity from any of the alternatives.

SF are an alternative

you spent most of your post speaking about incumbents

Johnny Dogs

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

We certainly seem to be incapable of governing ourselves anyway.

We just swap one bunch of chancing gougers for another in s revolving door system, with one crowd crowing about how rotten, corrupt and crooked the other are, until those at the helms are caught with their pants (or knickers) down.

and yet

*checks just to be sure*

its not a bad aul shpot if you take a moment to weigh up what you put in and what you get out of it.

amcalester

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

The relevance is......

Sinn Fein have experienced a collapse in their vote share in the local elections, the OP stated possible reasons for being responsible.

Problem being - serious lack of integrity from any of the alternatives.

SF are the alternatives? And yet their vote still collapsed.

I’m not, nor likely ever to be, a SF voter but if my experience of their canvassers are anything to go by I’m not surprised their support collapsed.

When I said I was not going to vote for them the canvasser immediately launched into a tirade against FF and how she could never vote for them. Good for you I thought but I’m not canvassing for FF.

Contrast that with the FF candidate I also told I wouldn't vote for who actually listened to my reasons and tried to convince me otherwise.

A much more pleasant experience. FF did quite well in my area.

Loafing Oaf

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

That wasn’t “my answer”. It was a question.

And yes they are. On abortion etc. SF used to have no policy now it’s a party whip pro abortion. Lots left after that.

And no, I’m not a core voter.

Well luckily we have a canary in the coalmine in the shape of Aontu for how SF would get on if it reverted to a pro-life position. Early days as yet of course but I doubt they'll have to be clearing a new suite of offices in the Dail for them after the next GE...

McMurphy

amcalester wrote: »

SF are the alternatives? And yet their vote still collapsed.

I’m not, nor likely ever to be, a SF voter but if my experience of their canvassers are anything to go by I’m not surprised their support collapsed.

When I said I was not going to vote for them the canvasser immediately launched into a tirade against FF and how she could never vote for them. Good for you I thought but I’m not canvassing for FF.

Contrast that with the FF candidate I also told I wouldn't vote for who actually listened to my reasons and tried to convince me otherwise.

A much more pleasant experience. FF did quite well in my area.

In my nearly twenty years of voting eligibility, I've never experienced what you described above when I informed a canvasser that I'd no intention of voting for them, quite the opposite in fact. I think it is drilled into people who tred the doorsteps not to spend too much time with people who either have said they have no intention of voting for you (lost cause) or who have said from the off, that they were already intending to vote for whoever you're canvassing for (already in the bag)

Apparently it's the people on the fence that they spend the most time with, trying to convince you why you're better off voting for his or her party, and all the promises etc that go with that.

Not saying what you described above didn't happen, (I believe you completely)

That canvasser sounded like a complete and utter plonker tbh.

_Kaiser_

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

We certainly seem to be incapable of governing ourselves anyway.

We just swap one bunch of chancing gougers for another in s revolving door system, with one crowd crowing about how rotten, corrupt and crooked the other are, until those at the helms are caught with their pants (or knickers) down.

It's a valid point and one I've ranted on about here myself

The reason the same stuff keeps happening regardless of whose time at the wheel it is, is because the average Irish man/woman knows they'd do exactly the same things if they thought they'd get away with it/had the neck to do it.

We're too fond of the cute hoor, too quick to look for the loophole to avoid our responsibilities, and too accepting of the lazy half-assed "be grand" approach to pretty much everything run by us.

We only concern ourselves with what we can see from our front/back window and what the neighbours have/are getting away with that we're not.

The bigger picture is not a factor, nor is what's good for the long term. It's all "what's in it for me, NOW!"

I have said before that we weren't ready to be let at the controls of a nation and I think the events of the last hundred years would bear that out, not least because when we finally DID win our freedom from "de Brits" we couldn't give it over to the Church fast enough. Then when that mostly toxic influence wained in the late 80s and 90s, we quickly handed it off to Europe.

We seem to "need" to be told what to do, to have someone else to blame, and to be told what good citizens we are by our "betters" (hence why so much is made of how we're first to do X, or adopt Y - we crave that validation it seems).

To be fair, we haven't been at this national governance all that long really but as a small appendage/thorn to the large EU superstate, if we plan to have any sort of meaningful and effective place therein in the future, we need to all really "grow up" a bit I think.

amcalester

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

In my nearly twenty years of voting eligibility, I've never experienced what you described above when I informed a canvasser that I'd no intention of voting for them, quite the opposite in fact. I think it is drilled into people who tred the doorsteps not to spend too much time with people who either have said they have no intention of voting for you (lost cause) or who have said from the off, that they were already intending to vote for whoever you're canvassing for (already in the bag)

Apparently it's the people on the fence that they spend the most time with, trying to convince you why you're better off voting for his or her party, and all the promises etc that go with that.

Not saying what you described above didn't happen, (I believe you completely)

That canvasser sounded like a complete and utter plonker tbh.

I’d never experienced it before either which is why it stands out but it was also my only experience of a SF canvasser for this or any other election.

Saying that I do know quite a few people who have canvassed on behalf of SF and/or have stood for election and they are genuinely decent people, and outside of politics easy to talk to/get on with, but I’ve learned not to discuss politics with them because all that happens is they keep repeating the party line which can get tiresome. IMO they have very little understanding of the wider issues which is why they fall back to what they know, the party line. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, there are many politicians who would be better served by doing the same.

It’s just an observation and a reason why I think the vote fell this time.

super_furry

I think Sinn Fein really benefitted from associating themselves with the anti-water charges movement and got their last real election bounce on the back of that. Think it's going to be hard for them to replicate that set of circumstances and with them continuing to look so inept up North with the Northern assembly still inactive, it's going to be tough for them to win floating voters back.

_Kaiser_

The problem with SF is that most of the people who would support them don't generally vote.

Everyone else knows that they're a protest group - useful for keeping the Big 2 in check but that's about all. No one would let them at the economic levers given their stated outlook on such matters.

Plus they think that people in the Republic consider the North and potential reunification as a core issue - they don't.. We have enough problems here that we can't effectively deal with as it is without taking those on as well.

Ursus Horribilis

I think the Green Party was a nicer protest vote option for people this time around. Voting for saving the planet is more feelgood than a party that still has a whiff of cordite about it.

Pintman Paddy Losty

Not surprised at all at their collapse if I'm honest.

SF are a spent docket at this stage. They totally mistepped with their message. No point appealing to the angry layabouts at a time when there's full employment and the economy is booming. FGs message to hardworking John and Joan Q Taxpayer who get up early in the morning obviously strikes a better chord. Exceptional result for them for a party that has already been in government for two terms.

I suppose people identify much more with the honest message the mainstream parties are offering.

Looking forward to the next GE. I can see FG leading a strong coalition with Greens and Labour. SF will suffer very badly if they don't sort out their crisis of identity. Too soft for the hardcore terrorist sympathisers and irrelevant to most everyone else.

Annasopra

Their "fighting for you" slogan really annoyed a lot of people too. I know some friends of mine who were ex pat Brits felt it was inapproproate as it was really a coded message about the IRA.

The other thing is SF tried to paint itself all along as a real alternative to FF and FG but recently they basically said they would be happy to govern alongside either.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's a valid point and one I've ranted on about here myself

The reason the same stuff keeps happening regardless of whose time at the wheel it is, is because the average Irish man/woman knows they'd do exactly the same things if they thought they'd get away with it/had the neck to do it.

We're too fond of the cute hoor, too quick to look for the loophole to avoid our responsibilities, and too accepting of the lazy half-assed "be grand" approach to pretty much everything run by us.

We only concern ourselves with what we can see from our front/back window and what the neighbours have/are getting away with that we're not.

The bigger picture is not a factor, nor is what's good for the long term. It's all "what's in it for me, NOW!"

I have said before that we weren't ready to be let at the controls of a nation and I think the events of the last hundred years would bear that out, not least because when we finally DID win our freedom from "de Brits" we couldn't give it over to the Church fast enough. Then when that mostly toxic influence wained in the late 80s and 90s, we quickly handed it off to Europe.

We seem to "need" to be told what to do, to have someone else to blame, and to be told what good citizens we are by our "betters" (hence why so much is made of how we're first to do X, or adopt Y - we crave that validation it seems).

To be fair, we haven't been at this national governance all that long really but as a small appendage/thorn to the large EU superstate, if we plan to have any sort of meaningful and effective place therein in the future, we need to all really "grow up" a bit I think.

God almighty, this is one of the worlds most successful states.

James Brown

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Not surprised at all at their collapse if I'm honest.

SF are a spent docket at this stage. They totally mistepped with their message. No point appealing to the angry layabouts at a time when there's full employment and the economy is booming. FGs message to hardworking John and Joan Q Taxpayer who get up early in the morning obviously strikes a better chord. Exceptional result for them for a party that has already been in government for two terms.

I suppose people identify much more with the honest message the mainstream parties are offering.

Looking forward to the next GE. I can see FG leading a strong coalition with Greens and Labour. SF will suffer very badly if they don't sort out their crisis of identity. Too soft for the hardcore terrorist sympathisers and irrelevant to most everyone else.

I don't think anyone would trust either FF/FG IMO.
I think SF have the shady past and no in government record. This is a problem that can't be addressed. People will go for 'better the devil you know' every time. SF needs to get in as a junior partner and not be a patsy for FF/FG if the time comes.
I think if SF stick to calling out FF/FG they'll do alright for themselves. The arse will fall out of the economy at some point and they are head and shoulders above Labour. It'll be interesting to see what way the civil party and floating votes split now FF/FG are practically the one shower.

_Kaiser_

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

God almighty, this is one of the worlds most successful states.

Define "Successful". In addition to the points I previously called out, we have:

- Massive structural issues in Health and over-reliance on Housing leading to perpetual crisis in both

- Corruption, waste and incompetence is the norm in the ruling parties. No-one ever pays for it in any meaningful way though

- Speaking of paying for it, let's not forget the massive social damage done by the cheapest-bailout-EVAR - which we're still seeing the effects of years on and will do for a long time yet (the debt hasn't gone away y'know! Just wait till the next crisis hits)

- An economy that depends highly on FDI and Multinationals which could move in the morning. What then? We all become farmers?

- Piss-poor infrastructure (particularly public transport) outside of Dublin and the larger towns

- Completely unbalanced tax system where those on either end of the scale pay the least, or nothing at all

- Aging population because the middle segment above can't afford to have and support kids. Massive pension crisis ahead

- Significant personal debt levels. Those 191 cars you see everywhere aren't bought for cash in most cases. PCP finance FTW :rolleyes:

Those are just the "highlights". I wouldn't be believing the "boom is back baby!" spin as readily if I were you.

there's a tiny gap between "the boom is back" and "irish people are pathologically incapable of running the country"

in that tiny gap theres about four odd million people enjoying a very good quality of life with a modicum of self-involved discretion involved.

not all will own their own property, which is overvalued in this economy.

not all will be healthy.

not all will maintain any type of reasonable perspective on their quality of life versus most other places at most other times

all three of the above are normal.

_blaaz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

not all will own their own property, which is overvalued in this economy.

not all will be healthy.

not all will maintain any type of reasonable perspective on their quality of life versus most other places at most other times

all three of the above are normal.

The fact that all three above are coupled with little to no pension plans isnt normal.....all your doing is storing up an insurmontable housing crisis for generation


Where will these people.go upon retirement??

given fg tendancy to see tenament type dwellings as a solution....deos this mean i have an old victorian style poorhouse to look forward to when i retire??

Do you foresee any viable solutions?

_blaaz

_blaaz wrote: »

The fact that all three above are coupled with little to no pension plans isnt normal.....all your doing is storing up an insurmontable housing crisis for generation


Where will these people.go upon retirement??

given fg tendancy to see tenament type dwellings as a solution....deos this mean i have an old victorian style poorhouse to look forward to when i retire??

Do you foresee any viable solutions?

yeah. get a pension.

?

_blaaz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

yeah. get a pension.

?

Mate....if people cant afford a mortgage with the way rents are(or any reasonable lifestlye)....how do you propose they afford a pension



This is pure and utter shinnernomics nonsense.....theres no such thing as money trees