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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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    #7382
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭Ireland trains


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stricter-rules-drive-up-cost-of-irish-transport-plans-g8lz52lck
    "€4 billion DART plan"


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    #7383
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Ireland trains wrote: »
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stricter-rules-drive-up-cost-of-irish-transport-plans-g8lz52lck
    "€4 billion DART plan"

    Simply cannot restrain themselves when the opportunity to print blatant error presents. But will complain that fewer and fewer people are paying any notice to print media.


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    #7384
    MyLove4Satan
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭MyLove4Satan


    I cant see any reason why the could not run a Cork to Belfast service though the tunnel during off peak (afternoons and late evening) at some point in the future. Once it is not interfering with commuter services no harm done. A dedicated hybrid railcar set.


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    #7385
    MyLove4Satan
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭MyLove4Satan


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Simply cannot restrain themselves when the opportunity to print blatant error presents. But will complain that fewer and fewer people are paying any notice to print media.


    It is like you can't get a job in journalism in Ireland unless you attack rail projects. I will always recall the first TV report on the DART - day one of service asking people 'But will you actually use this?" and the same question asked on the first day of the Luas by a TV reporter, and I am sure if the Metro and DART tunnel ever opens the same questions will be put to the same kind of people on opening day.

    I still have the Indo editorial attacking the original DART plan somewhere and it is practically the psychotic howling of a deranged drunken lunatic passed off as a critique of a commuter rail system. You can literally smell the drink and DTs off it.


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    #7386
    MyLove4Satan
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭MyLove4Satan


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    The reason DU didn't happen is because it was too big, too complex and had too many interconnected elements and failure on one was going to bring the whole lot tumbling down. Had we start with the current DART+ plan a decade ago, without the tunnel and dealing with the various lines individually but as part of an overall plan, the chance of delivering would have been higher than with full DU we could now be in a position to progress with the tunnel.

    There are other threads for peoples fantasy, no limitations projects, I think we need threads for DART+ and DART+ Tunnel to track what is actually happening, not just what people would like to see in an ideal world.

    ^^^
    THIS



    The original plan was a CrossRail-like leviathan which hung everything on the 'Interconnector' while obvious solutions such as reopening the Phoenix Park Tunnel and the Metro connecting at Glasnevin Jct were not even considered. It was engineers drunk on Celtic Tiger money wanting the top possible system or nothing. I was glad when it was dropped.


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    #7387
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    MyLove4Satan wrote: »
    ^^^
    THIS



    The original plan was a CrossRail-like leviathan which hung everything on the 'Interconnector' while obvious solutions such as reopening the Phoenix Park Tunnel and the Metro connecting at Glasnevin Jct were not even considered. It was engineers drunk on Celtic Tiger money wanting the top possible system or nothing. I was glad when it was dropped.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see the PPT been dropped or even been removed from electrification plans if this tunnel is highly likely to happen. The tunnel will surely revert back to the Drogheda - Hazelhatch and Maynooth - Greystones plans.


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    #7388
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,969 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    IE 222 wrote: »
    I wouldn't be surprised to see the PPT been dropped or even been removed from electrification plans if this tunnel is highly likely to happen. The tunnel will surely revert back to the Drogheda - Hazelhatch and Maynooth - Greystones plans.

    We can't keep changing plans. Can we just pick one plan and stick to it please?


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    #7389
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    spacetweek wrote: »
    We can't keep changing plans. Can we just pick one plan and stick to it please?

    I agree but the tunnel changes the dynamics of the Dart+ network. Connolly is the core of the Dart+ plan but that obviously changes to Pearse or Tara St. with the tunnel and the Northern line is the entrance/exit of both those cores.

    Personally I think there is too many singular projects that actually overlap with each other and many previous plans/proposals that would actually fit within current plans which will no doubt be motioned again in the near future are not been included and put into consideration. Regrettably I think penny pinching will win over and we'll find ourselves forever revisiting and upgrading the same lines over and over.


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    #7390
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,776 ✭✭✭SeanW


    MyLove4Satan wrote: »
    ^^^
    THIS



    The original plan was a CrossRail-like leviathan which hung everything on the 'Interconnector' while obvious solutions such as reopening the Phoenix Park Tunnel and the Metro connecting at Glasnevin Jct were not even considered. It was engineers drunk on Celtic Tiger money wanting the top possible system or nothing. I was glad when it was dropped.
    Why? :confused:


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    #7391
    MyLove4Satan
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭MyLove4Satan


    SeanW wrote: »
    Why? :confused:


    Because it would never have been built and would have represented the ultimate kick the can down the road further and forever. The public were not wooed by something called the 'Interconnector'.



    The revised plans for the Dart+ and MetroLink made the impossibility of the original Dublin Rail Plan accessible and achievable.



    Also it was very important for the Phoenix Park Tunnel to make itself known to the commuters and politicians. Once that was a success everything else from that becomes an addition they can visualise the reason for. Glasnevin to Airport... etc.


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    #7392
    FrankN1
    Registered Users Posts: 922 ✭✭✭FrankN1


    When are they going to start work on the DART line to Maynooth?


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    #7393
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    FrankN1 wrote: »
    When are they going to start work on the DART line to Maynooth?

    Probably early 2023. The railway order application will be submitted towards the end of this year.


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    #7394
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Is there not meant to be a second consultation. I'd imagine there will be a number of alterations or at least confirmation of the unpopular aspects of the project going ahead.

    Has there been any information given back locally in terms of the level crossing closures.


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    #7395
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Is there not meant to be a second consultation. I'd imagine there will be a number of alterations or at least confirmation of the unpopular aspects of the project going ahead.

    Has there been any information given back locally in terms of the level crossing closures.

    Yes, in a few weeks.


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    #7396
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,552 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Is there not meant to be a second consultation. I'd imagine there will be a number of alterations or at least confirmation of the unpopular aspects of the project going ahead.

    Has there been any information given back locally in terms of the level crossing closures.

    The second consultation was supposed to happen late last year, followed by the statutory consultation, leading to the railway order application being lodged around now.

    None of the above has yet happened so fair to say it's not off to a flyer...


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    #7397
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    The second consultation was supposed to happen late last year, followed by the statutory consultation, leading to the railway order application being lodged around now.

    None of the above has yet happened so fair to say it's not off to a flyer...

    Are you sure there is to be a second consultation for DART+ West? I thought it would move to RO application now and the next consultation would be for DART+ South West (Kildare line).


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    #7398
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    I would suspect they received a lot more submissions than expected seen as everyone had a lot of time on their hands.

    Given the large number of objections to Coolmine in particular on here alone and the high profile political backing they seemed to got its likely they probably had to re-examine and model alternative options.

    Judging by media reports it sounds like they got of lightly early on with the Kilcock "future plans" response but maybe their having second thoughts on that which would delay the process.


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    #7399
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Are you sure there is to be a second consultation for DART+ West? I thought it would move to RO application now and the next consultation would be for DART+ South West (Kildare line).

    Surely they'd have to have a second consultation on it in order to get a measure of the response of any purposed or ruled out changes. They'd be bogged down with numerous legal challenges if they just tweaked the plan and submitted it. No doubt they'll still have a few NIMBY's challenging it regardless but the key is make sure they're only a confined minority


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    #7400
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,552 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Are you sure there is to be a second consultation for DART+ West? I thought it would move to RO application now and the next consultation would be for DART+ South West (Kildare line).

    Yep, the plan was for two public consultations and then the statutory one;
    https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/DART-Programme/DART-West-Public-Consultation/DART-West-Line-Public-Consultation-Process

    Maybe they're planning to trim that back somewhat but there will be murder if they do.


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    #7401
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,969 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Peregrine wrote: »
    Probably early 2023. The railway order application will be submitted towards the end of this year.

    That's a huge slippage. It was supposed to be submitted end Q2, like in a couple of months.


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    #7402
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    spacetweek wrote: »
    That's a huge slippage. It was supposed to be submitted end Q2, like in a couple of months.

    That's if everyone gave the thumbs up at the first attempt. You'd be doing well to get a garden shed passed on the first attempt these days.


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    #7403
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,552 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    IE 222 wrote: »
    That's if everyone gave the thumbs up at the first attempt. You'd be doing well to get a garden shed passed on the first attempt these days.

    It was a wildly ambitious (i.e. completely unrealistic) timetable. The second public consultation was supposed to happen in Q4 2020, but the first one was still ongoing in Q4. Even if everyone did give it a thumbs up, there would have been slippage. They were behind from day one and they have yet to publish a revised timetable.

    As an advertisement for IE's project management skills, it's not the best.

    And don't forget, there are some MASSIVE parts of the Maynooth line works which simply didn't feature in the first consultation. The second public consultation is likely to generate just as much interest as the first.

    If we see a railway order application lodged before 2023, I'll be surprised.


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    #7404
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    It was a wildly ambitious (i.e. completely unrealistic) timetable. The second public consultation was supposed to happen in Q4 2020, but the first one was still ongoing in Q4. Even if everyone did give it a thumbs up, there would have been slippage. They were behind from day one and they have yet to publish a revised timetable.

    As an advertisement for IE's project management skills, it's not the best.

    And don't forget, there are some MASSIVE parts of the Maynooth line works which simply didn't feature in the first consultation. The second public consultation is likely to generate just as much interest as the first.

    If we see a railway order application lodged before 2023, I'll be surprised.

    Well the NTA are in charge of it. It was only announced the end of August you're been very optimistic to think a project of this scale and cost will go through all the processes in number of months.

    What massive parts where left out?


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    #7405
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,552 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Well the NTA are in charge of it. It was only announced the end of August you're been very optimistic to think a project of this scale and cost will go through all the processes in number of months.

    I'm not optimistic at all, that's exactly my point. It absolutely cannot go through the processes in anything like the time allotted, that's why it's a bit of an indictment of the basic competency of whoever put it together.

    Delivering on the current plan requires time to flow backwards so I would rate its chances of going to schedule as fair to middling at best.

    That said, I am not a project management consultant so perhaps there is a way to disrupt the very fabric of space and time that the NTA are planning to use here.
    IE 222 wrote: »
    What massive parts where left out?

    IIRC, there are protected bridge structures at Broombridge and Maynooth that are too low for the electric lines to pass under, plus a very complicated setup at Castleknock station, all of which were TBD in the first go-around.


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    #7406
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    I'm not optimistic at all, that's exactly my point. It absolutely cannot go through the processes in anything like the time allotted, that's why it's a bit of an indictment of the basic competency of whoever put it together.

    Delivering on the current plan requires time to flow backwards so I would rate its chances of going to schedule as fair to middling at best.

    That said, I am not a project management consultant so perhaps there is a way to disrupt the very fabric of space and time that the NTA are planning to use here.



    IIRC, there are protected bridge structures at Broombridge and Maynooth that are too low for the electric lines to pass under, plus a very complicated setup at Castleknock station, all of which were TBD in the first go-around.

    Well it's making a statement that "where happy with what we're presenting and ready to go" its then put to the public and government to decide if their onboard.

    What's complicated about Castleknock. Jackson bridge is a case of what the local authority approve off. It will go around it or the bridge altered or removed.


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    #7407
    Bsharp
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭Bsharp


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    It was a wildly ambitious (i.e. completely unrealistic) timetable. The second public consultation was supposed to happen in Q4 2020, but the first one was still ongoing in Q4. Even if everyone did give it a thumbs up, there would have been slippage. They were behind from day one and they have yet to publish a revised timetable.

    If we see a railway order application lodged before 2023, I'll be surprised.

    Timeframe was never realistic but they got someone to sign up to it. IE seem to be one of the better agencies at keeping costs down on major projects: so maybe they put forward a short timeframe to minimise consultancy spend for a fixed fee budget. The consultants signed up so will find it harder to make a claim if they've added to the delay.

    The issue with this approach is you've guaranteed the delays will happen. The project will have less staff allocated than needed because it's a fixed fee (and fees are made up of no. of staff at grades working per hour).

    Government agencies still haven't got their heads around demands for public consultation. A few rounds of non-statutory consultation, possibly not all planned, will ruin any programme. It's led by the desire to head into ABP with planning risks minimised as much as possible.


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    #7408
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,969 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2020/0831/1162347-woodbrook-dart-station/

    New station PP gone in for between Shankill and Bray.

    PP for Woodbrook was lodged back in autumn 2020. Looks like a decision was never made. Anyone got another update?


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    #7409
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    spacetweek wrote: »
    PP for Woodbrook was lodged back in autumn 2020. Looks like a decision was never made. Anyone got another update?

    Further information regarding signage, landscaping, fencing etc. was requested in December. They have six months to provide the information.


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    #7410
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    DART+ South West public consultation will start in the next week or so.

    Edit: Tomorrow


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    #7411
    p_haugh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Peregrine wrote: »
    DART+ South West public consultation will start in the next week or so.

    Edit: Tomorrow

    New Website for Dart + has been made available today, likely in advance of the public consultation going live.

    https://www.dartplus.ie/en-ie/home


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