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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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    #7352
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Intercity trains should run through Dublin in a separate tunnel from Heuston northwards to Dublin airport so that direct Bel-Cork trains aren't held up by Darts and the existing lines are free to run extremely frequent DART services.


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    #7353
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,684 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    bk wrote: »
    Even then, it is a terrible idea to mix different type of services like this.

    We have seen from the success of the Luas the benefit of keeping things "simple" and operating just one type of service on a line and hopefully we will repeat that with Metrolink.


    We're not going to repeat that with Metrolink because, if and when it is extended south, we'll be lumbered with this weird Frankenstein of a line that'll be metro as far as Sandyford and Luas beyond that without any plan for where this orphaned Luas line is going to go or how it will connect with the rest of the Luas network.

    cgcsb wrote: »
    Intercity trains should run through Dublin in a separate tunnel from Heuston northwards to Dublin airport so that direct Bel-Cork trains aren't held up by Darts and the existing lines are free to run extremely frequent DART services.



    There's no need to run intercity services through DU unless the plan is to have all intercity services terminating at Dublin Airport in the same fashion as the BE network. If that's not the intention then terminating close to city centre and letting the urban network do the last mile is fine.


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    #7354
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    AngryLips wrote: »
    We're not going to repeat that with Metrolink because, if and when it is extended south, we'll be lumbered with this weird Frankenstein of a line that'll be metro as far as Sandyford and Luas beyond that without any plan for where this orphaned Luas line is going to go or how it will connect with the rest of the Luas network.

    No, that isn't the same thing at all. You still aren't mixing two different services, you are just upgrading Luas to Metro level, a very common approach all over Europe (e.g. see Frankfurt).


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    #7355
    yascaoimhin
    Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    AngryLips wrote: »
    ..we'll be lumbered with this weird Frankenstein of a line that'll be metro as far as Sandyford and Luas beyond that without any plan for where this orphaned Luas line is going to go....

    Metro South is planned to go from Charlemont to Brides Glen at the very least.
    The Last section, is not currently built, from Brides Glen to Bray, Between now and 2035 there is no plan to convert it to Metro. But It's not impossible.


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    #7356
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Intercity trains should run through Dublin in a separate tunnel from Heuston northwards to Dublin airport so that direct Bel-Cork trains aren't held up by Darts and the existing lines are free to run extremely frequent DART services.

    Listen - we are barely able to get two commuter rail tunnels sorted let alone a third for Intercity.

    I also don’t see any significant market for direct Belfast-Cork trains. The market for both cities is to and from Dublin.


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    #7357
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    yascaoimhin wrote: »
    Metro South is planned to go from Charlemont to Brides Glen at the very least.
    The Last section, is not currently built, from Brides Glen to Bray, Between now and 2035 there is no plan to convert it to Metro. But It's not impossible.

    Nothing is impossible but paper never refused ink.

    A bit of realism is needed here.

    There are plenty of ideas but right now the only plan on the table is for Metro to go to Sandyford per the current strategy.

    Anything else is nothing more than an idea.


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    #7358
    yascaoimhin
    Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    My ideal for the realignment would be Docklands - Tara - Christchurch - Hesuton.

    I think Tara and Docklands should be the major Dublin regional stations. Having Tara be the hub for both DARTs and the Metro makes more sense to me than Pearse station when Pearse should continue its role as the hub for Commuter lines.

    With Docklands, I think we should consider the south Docklands, but that's just an idea and can see why It wouldn't work.

    Christchurch could easily be a station that spans the river, allowing connection to Luas Lucan on one side and Luas Red on the other.


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    #7359
    yascaoimhin
    Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    the only plan on the table is for Metro to go to Sandyford per the current strategy.

    The current strategy has the metro go to Bride's Glen.


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    #7360
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    yascaoimhin wrote: »
    The current strategy has the metro go to Bride's Glen.

    That is what I assumed. I had assumed that there won't be separate Luas trams and Metro trains, I assume that the Metro trains will simply continue south of Sandyford.

    Obviously not all of them, as you don't need that frequency at the moment, but perhaps every second one or similar. And south of Sanyford, they might operate at a slower speed more like Luas and without the high level of segregation at junctions, etc.

    If they choose 60 meter Metro trains to start with, they aren't all that much longer then the current 55 meter trams and it wouldn't take much effort or cost (relatively speaking) to upgrade the platforms south of Sandyford to take them.


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    #7361
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    bk wrote: »
    If they choose 60 meter Metro trains to start with, they aren't all that much longer then the current 55 meter trams and it wouldn't take much effort or cost (relatively speaking) to upgrade the platforms south of Sandyford to take them.

    The metro trains would be high-floor so you would have to raise the platforms too. Plus platform screen doors and segregation would be needed for GoA4.

    That's what the strategy says though so we'll see what they propose.


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    #7362
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Peregrine wrote: »
    The metro trains would be high-floor so you would have to raise the platforms too. Plus platform screen doors and segregation would be needed for GoA4.

    That's what the strategy says though so we'll see what they propose.

    Sure, though that is relatively trivial, well compared to tunnelling and all that of Metrolink. Most of the stations have plenty of space for upgrading, not terribly challenging.

    It sounds like the greenline southern upgrade will be a whole separate project, so probably worth biting the bullet and do it the whole way to Bridesglen, plus future extension.


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    #7363
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,554 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    yascaoimhin wrote: »
    My ideal for the realignment would be Docklands - Tara - Christchurch - Hesuton.

    My ideal alignment would be from Hesuton straight along/under the river, stations can have entrances/exits on both sides of the river.

    It would then split near the Ha'penny Bridge, one branch toward Pearse/Bray and the other Connolly/Howth/Malihide.

    Metro North could interect at the split.


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    #7364
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,776 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Can I suggest that the recent posts relating to DART+ Tunnel get split off into a new thread? The DART tunnel idea is going back to square 1 again so it makes sense to start a new thread to track its progress.

    There should be a lot happening in the near future with DART+ (consultation for South West hopefully imminent, followed by Coastal and RO application for West possibly before the end of the year) so better to keep all that together than mixing in lots of tunnel crayoning.


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    #7365
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    yascaoimhin wrote: »
    The current strategy has the metro go to Bride's Glen.

    Sorry, but beyond 2027 is getting into pipedreams and it is certainly the realm of paper not refusing ink. We aren’t even at railway order stage for anything yet.

    At this stage let’s be realistic and focus on getting any of the rail
    based projects beyond railway order stage.


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    #7366
    yascaoimhin
    Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Sorry, but beyond 2027 is getting into pipedreams and it is certainly the realm of paper not refusing ink. We aren’t even at railway order stage for anything yet.

    At this stage let’s be realistic and focus on getting any of the rail
    based projects beyond railway order stage.

    Sorry but you brought up what was currently part of the strategy and I just reconfirmed what is part of the strategy


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    #7367
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    gjim wrote: »
    God no. Building new terminal rail platforms in the city would be nuts. They're a disaster in terms of capacity, efficiency and operations. Cities all over Europe have been spending billions trying to fix the problems associated with historical terminal stations over the last 50 years with variants of interconnectors.

    If you're going to the expense of bringing a rail line into a city - particularly if it involves tunnelling - then you make sure you continue the line and have it emerge from the city in a different direction.

    A terminus at Tara even with 4 platforms would support a fraction of the capacity of a pair of through-platforms and cost almost the same. It could even turn out to be more expensive.

    Well I wasn't suggesting a terminal only option.

    My suggestion of having Belfast and Sligo terminate here also would mean they'd travel underground via Spencer Dock. This would offer a through line while also having a terminal station for all Intercity Services with the exception of Rosslare which would still serve the current Tara St. station. The idea would need about 10 platforms with a number of terminal platforms along with a number of through platforms.

    Ultimately the plan would be to Quad the Northern line and build a spur to the airport. This would allow a number of Intercity trains to also run through.

    No doubt it would require a serious undertaking but it would connect every rail line and service in the country.


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    #7368
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    yascaoimhin wrote: »
    Sorry but you brought up what was currently part of the strategy and I just reconfirmed what is part of the strategy

    I did but I was thinking in terms of 2027.

    Considering beyond that isn’t remotely realistic.

    I’m old enough to remember the original DART plan, so you’ll forgive me for being cynical.


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    #7369
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    IE 222 wrote: »
    Well I wasn't suggesting a terminal only option.

    My suggestion of having Belfast and Sligo terminate here also would mean they'd travel underground via Spencer Dock. This would offer a through line while also having a terminal station for all Intercity Services with the exception of Rosslare which would still serve the current Tara St. station. The idea would need about 10 platforms with a number of terminal platforms along with a number of through platforms.

    Ultimately the plan would be to Quad the Northern line and build a spur to the airport. This would allow a number of Intercity trains to also run through.

    No doubt it would require a serious undertaking but it would connect every rail line and service in the country.

    Please try and be realistic. We have not even got Metro or DART+ off the ground yet.

    DART can run to the Airport connecting with Intercity at Clongriffin and Heuston.

    That does what’s needed without building massive unnecessary infrastructure and unnecessary additional rolling stock.


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    #7370
    garrettod
    Registered Users Posts: 2,428 ✭✭✭garrettod


    They were talking about Dart Underground in the 1980s, possibly even the 1970s....

    They'll still be talking about it in the 2070s and 2080s :rolleyes:

    Thanks,

    G.



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    #7371
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,302 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    garrettod wrote: »
    They were talking about Dart Underground in the 1980s, possibly even the 1970s....

    They'll still be talking about it in the 2070s and 2080s :rolleyes:

    In the 1970s, we had the underground bus terminal in Temple Bar.


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    #7372
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    garrettod wrote: »
    They were talking about Dart Underground in the 1980s, possibly even the 1970s....

    They'll still be talking about it in the 2070s and 2080s :rolleyes:

    There was a full plan for a DART network in the 1970s. The plans are in this thread.

    I know that people want things to happen but we need to be realistic about this. Politics in Ireland is sadly perpetually short term. Thinking beyond 6 years from now is just not realistic as it’ll just change again.


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    #7373
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Please try and be realistic. We have not even got Metro or DART+ off the ground yet.

    DART can run to the Airport connecting with Intercity at Clongriffin and Heuston.

    That does what’s needed without building massive unnecessary infrastructure and unnecessary additional rolling stock.

    I am been realistic. Why build things in drips and drabs over a number of decades when it can be just done as part of 1 big project? Settling for half measures costs more in the long run. It's not as if a tunnel will be built and operational next year. My suggestion is just putting a number of projects suggested in past together as one.

    The Northern line needs quad tracking
    Airport spur isn't unnecessary
    Electrification and new future IC fleet
    Dart tunnel
    Connectivity


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    #7374
    yascaoimhin
    Registered Users Posts: 143 ✭✭yascaoimhin


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    I did but I was thinking in terms of 2027/QUOTE]

    That's fine, but that's the extent of the National Development Plan, not the Transport strategy.

    The National Development Plan is currently being reviewed and will likely see a much larger focus on sustainable tranpsort


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    #7375
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,776 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    IE 222 wrote: »
    I am been realistic. Why build things in drips and drabs over a number of decades when it can be just done as part of 1 big project? Settling for half measures costs more in the long run. It's not as if a tunnel will be built and operational next year. My suggestion is just putting a number of projects suggested in past together as one.

    The reason DU didn't happen is because it was too big, too complex and had too many interconnected elements and failure on one was going to bring the whole lot tumbling down. Had we start with the current DART+ plan a decade ago, without the tunnel and dealing with the various lines individually but as part of an overall plan, the chance of delivering would have been higher than with full DU we could now be in a position to progress with the tunnel.

    There are other threads for peoples fantasy, no limitations projects, I think we need threads for DART+ and DART+ Tunnel to track what is actually happening, not just what people would like to see in an ideal world.


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    #7376
    Ireland trains
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭Ireland trains


    https://www.businesspost.ie/transport/dublin-to-belfast-hourly-train-service-possible-by-2024-says-operator-in-north-632b75a8
    Would someone be kind enough to post the full article :)


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    #7377
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Listen - we are barely able to get two commuter rail tunnels sorted let alone a third for Intercity.

    I also don’t see any significant market for direct Belfast-Cork trains. The market for both cities is to and from Dublin.

    Do you feel better now? I said that's what should happen, not that we'll live to see such progress.

    The point of through running isn't to serve end to end demand but I think you already know that.


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    #7378
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Do you feel better now? I said that's what should happen, not that we'll live to see such progress.

    The point of through running isn't to serve end to end demand but I think you already know that.

    I’m fine thanks for asking, but I’m not going to apologise for calling out daft ideas that would involve massive unnecessary expense.

    I just don’t see the point of it - I think that DART will provide more than adequate connectivity.


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    #7379
    FrankN1
    Registered Users Posts: 947 ✭✭✭FrankN1


    Will the new trains be much more comfortable than the older DARTs?


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    #7380
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    I’m fine thanks for asking, but I’m not going to apologise for calling out daft ideas that would involve massive unnecessary expense.

    I just don’t see the point of it - I think that DART will provide more than adequate connectivity.

    Who do you even think you are talking to me like that?


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    #7381
    IE 222
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭IE 222


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    The reason DU didn't happen is because it was too big, too complex and had too many interconnected elements and failure on one was going to bring the whole lot tumbling down. Had we start with the current DART+ plan a decade ago, without the tunnel and dealing with the various lines individually but as part of an overall plan, the chance of delivering would have been higher than with full DU we could now be in a position to progress with the tunnel.

    There are other threads for peoples fantasy, no limitations projects, I think we need threads for DART+ and DART+ Tunnel to track what is actually happening, not just what people would like to see in an ideal world.

    It didn't happen because the country went bust.

    Unfortunately were in a situation after decades of neglect we need to not only loosen the purse strings but to take them off completely. Where potential going to pump billions into a number of rail projects and still have capacity, frequency and bottleneck issues.

    Where been very foolish believing where going to cram in all these extra services onto a network that's already maxed out with just signalling improvements, route alterations and crossing removals.

    Its glaringly obvious the Northern line needs quad tracking already, there is nothing fanatical about it. This would not only allow for capacity and frequency growth but speed increases to outer suburban and intercity services. It also allows other upgrades such as the airport spur and even Navan. Instead we will wait until it's on the brink of collapse or the Cross Border Review recommends it and start all over again. Then we upgrade parts of the intercity network to electrification but wont have the tunnel capacity to run trains through. We can already see from the intercity bus network that people want direct access to the airport.

    A dart tunnel changes the dynamics of Dart+ in terms of routing so a final decision and timeframe needs to be put onto that before the city centre aspects begin. Maybe that's why we seen so much scaling back of the Connolly area while Spencer Dock was going ahead.


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