DART+ (DART Expansion)

IE 222 wrote: »

Fill in / level out the Corbally Line (canal) and you'd have a perfect alignment into the centre of town.

As in the spur into the harbour?

Pick an easier battle. Jesus.

IE 222 wrote: »

Fill in / level out the Corbally Line (canal) and you'd have a perfect alignment into the centre of town.

Or dig a trench, put the line underground and put the canel back on top on the line.

ncounties wrote: »

More sprawl, more retail units competing for business from the businesses in Celbridge.

Hardly sprawl, allows people to actually live on top of great public transport as opposed to spurring to Celbridge where there's no scope for development.

People in Celbridge will do their business there, people living at Hazelhatch will do there's there.

ncounties wrote: »

Why suddenly would we build a massive rack of high rise apartments, south of a rural town of 20,000 people.

Because Celbridge, as you have repeatedly pointed out, is no where near the station.

There is plenty of space in and near the heart of Celbridge that could accommodation a new DART terminus and plenty of high density, low to medium rise housing.

This makes no operational sense. Do you run a line out to Celbridge and then bring it back to the mainline? Or do you keep on going to the Sligo line?

Why not leave the railway as is, save ourselves a million headaches, and just build new housing in the area where it is most easily done.

Why the obsession with preserving the primacy of Celbridge? Why shouldn't the area next to the station become a new town comparable in population to Hazelhatch? Public transport investment does not always have to provide for existing population centres.

donvito99 wrote: »

Because Celbridge, as you have repeatedly pointed out, is no where near the station.



This makes no operational sense. Do you run a line out to Celbridge and then bring it back to the mainline? Or do you keep on going to the Sligo line?

Why not leave the railway as is, save ourselves a million headaches, and just build new housing in the area where it is most easily done.

Why the obsession with preserving the primacy of Celbridge? Why shouldn't the area next to the station become a new town comparably in population to Hazelhatch? Public transport investment does not always have to provide for existing population centres.

How in good god, is building a whole new town, and all the necessary facilities (schools, shops, broadband infrastructure, water treatment and sewage, and loss of green belt, less of a headache than building 3.5km of rail, and a station to serve a sizeable settlement that already exists?!

bk wrote: »

Celbridge is the definition of sprawl, a town that has been built and grown up around the car. A sea of two storey homes all spread out over a great distance.

Repeat the Cherrywood SDZ around Hazelhatch station and you can have 10,000 new homes within easy walking distance of the station and with their own businesses on the ground floors of those apartment buildings.

Celbridge can continue to be served by the shuttle and with D+ offering much higher frequency, speeds and capacity, hopefully even an attractive service for the people of Celbridge.

Unless you are suggesting we bulldoze all those two storey homes and start again, replacing them with tall apartment buildings!

When you are in the middle of a housing crisis, with people crying out for new homes, it makes no sense to spend millions extra to serve a low density existing town, when you have the opportunity to build a new very high density town for 10'000's of families relatively short distance from Dublin.

There would be barely any properties that would require demolition to gain access into the town. Then all those green fields that border the town itself could be used for high density, low/medium, rise housing. As opposed to planning sky scrapers in a hamlet, only for us to go into another recession, and they remain unbuilt, and uninhabited.

ncounties wrote: »

There's like 30 houses in all of Hazelhatch. Why suddenly would we build a massive rake of high rise apartments, south of a rural town of 20,000 people. There is plenty of space in and near the heart of Celbridge that could accommodation a new DART terminus and plenty of high density, low to medium rise housing.

Edit - it really is flabbergasting how happy people are to just slightly improve on victorian era infrastructure, support the whole scale building of a new town and increase urban sprawl, yet when you suggest building 3.5km of rail to, and a station in, a settlement that already has 20,000 people, and potential to grow more, you're the one out of touch with reality...

Is it any wonder the country is the way it is.

How many more spurs are you going to suggest we add. You seem to want a spur to every door step at this rate.

There won't be large scale apartment blocks built in Hazelhatch. The land will sell nicely as large family homes once the Dart arrive. The social and densely populated housing will be built in Adamstown and whatever that new area will be called at Kishoge.

It's not the railways fault planners opted for motorways to shift people in the 80s and 90s. Some common sense could of saved the state billions in modern road infrastructure by maximizing Victorian infrastructure. I don't get these rants about Victorian infrastructure comments. If we left most of the Victorian infrastructure in place instead of ripping it out we wouldn't have all these issues. We only have what we have due to the forward vision of the Victorian era. Your spur to Naas is prime example of modern day versus Victorian era vision. The Victorians had a spur to Naas but someone else felt it was better off pulled up and eventually built on top off.

ncounties wrote: »

I’ve proposed two termini for DART services on the line. Celbridge and Naas. DART West will have two termini, as does/will DART North/Coastal (or whatever it’s name at the moment is) so I don’t know why you think that equates to me suggesting we build a spur to every doorstep?!

Save that kind of response for someone else.

Well there not on the line, there branch line spurs from the main line.

So that's at least 3 different Dart routes serving the Kildare route plus all the other services that use it for the sake of people travelling a mile or so. People will travel to use the service once it meets their needs. Hazelhatch has more passengers than Parkwest, Clondalkin and Adamstown.

ncounties wrote: »

I haven’t proposed DART to Kildare town. But if it were to come in time, so be it, quad track to Kildare.

No surprise for two of those locations. The new town Adamstown is half developed. Park West, another new residential area that is mostly full of industrial units, and I wouldn’t live there if you paid me. And Clondalkin. Isn’t that one of the more economically inactive parts of Dublin? At least that’s what the property prices would indicate... and yet despite the challenges with Adamstown and Park West, you’ve people here advocating more linear development and additional new towns?! Seriously?!

As for your comment about the distance... a centrally located station would be maximum 2 km from every settlement in the town. In the same radius from HH you only get Hazelhatch Park and Temple Manor, people from the latter would actually have to travel into the town before heading south toward HH,

Finally, if we just want to highlight, how ludicrous it is to consider HH as the optimum location for the Celbridge populace. The distance of it from the heart Celbridge is equivalent to the distance between Heuston and Trinity College.

Well you'd have a Celbridge, Naas and most likely a Kildare or Portlaoise or possibly both along with the intercity services. Not only would this require millions more been spent on rolling stock the line would become congested very quickly with half empty trains and cause a serious amount of conflict moving services onto and off the branch lines. It would also mean outer suburban services will need pick up stops closer to the city.

Don't get what wealth or social class is got to do with it. The point is housing is a lot closer to them stations than Hazelhatch catchment is although it still attracts a higher number of users. New homes are requirement I don't understand why you see an issue with building more homes or towns.

Taking Heuston as an example. It's not exactly central but people still use it as it's a better alternative. I'm sure not all users of Bray station live on the sea front either. It's a non issue, its an inconvenience for some but the people who want to use the service will use it.

Again I'll highlight the fact the issue here is town planning and it's very evident with all commuter towns. Planners wanted homes near motorways not rail lines and they most certainly didn't intend on building spur lines either. Until that attitude changes this will always be a problem.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The spur into Celbridge idea is one that will never get off the ground no matter what the merit...

Oh I know - but good to discuss [rant] about it here, to make some other people consider "what if we did things differently there".

Rulmeq wrote: »

A tramline to Celbridge would be interesting, it could cross the river at the gates of Castletown (I know they refused planning for a traffic bridge there, but a PT one shouldn't have the same issues). It could also link with Leixlip (and continue to Newcastle). I mean it's utterly bonkers because of cost, but busses are crap, sharing the roads with traffic and bouncing over speed ramps. I guess this should go in the "unlimited funds" thread instead.

There are buses every 15 minutes planned between Hazelhatch & Celbridge (259 & W8) under BusConnects - let’s keep this within reason.

The 259 will link with Leixlip and the W8 Maynooth, Newcastle, Saggart and Tallaght.

Rulmeq wrote: »

I know this is straying off topic, but that doesn't address the fact that buses are crap, they are slow, polluting, have to share the roads, and as a result get stuck in traffic, it takes 30 minute to cross the river some mornings. So without some form of 2nd crossing, you can have all the plans in the world for 15 minute shuttles, if they are stuck in traffic they are unpredictable, and unreliable - the biggest problem with convincing people to use PT. They are also uncomfortable, and cramped, and there are enough speed ramps around the town to make even short journeys miserable.

I don't want to be a killjoy here, but realistically there are only going to be buses connecting the station with the town.

BusConnects is the only show in town.

People need to focus on what is being planned and what is realistic.

Trams and railway spurs aren't going to happen.