DART+ (DART Expansion)

Ben D Bus

In relation to adding starions was there any mention of an M4 Parkway? The line is less than 1km from the motorway just west of Maynooth but doesn't have the necessary road access.

However is Kikcock comes onto the radar then Junction 8 is already there. Is Kikcock too far out for P&R?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122094116#Comment_122094116

Proposed for 14th Lock / Jackson's Bridge in the county development plan. Or possibly the local traffic plan. Either way, KCC want one even if the NTA don't

That would be linked to a new junction joining the M4 to the Maynooth Ring Road, which also doesn't exist yet

bk

It is obvious that the entire approach to DART+ is to break it down into lots of smaller projects, so if one project hits a planning road block, it doesn't impact the rest of the projects.

I think that is an extremely smart approach.

They basically did the same with the intercity road network. The whole thing cost 10 billion+, but it was never advertised as that, instead it was made up by many smaller projects, not even pre motorway, but like 50 to 100km sections and it worked very well.

I always say that the start - stop nature of the DART construction has been a great pity. First opened in 1984, then nothing until 2000 when it was extended to Greystones and Howth and then nothing again for another 24+ years!

Just imagine if instead over those years it had been gradually extended just a station or two at a time, Malahide to Rush and Lusk, then to Balbriggan, then to Drogheda, etc. and the same to the Western lines. We could have had a lot of what DART+ promises years ago!

I hope they can learn lessons from this and instead have a package of constant smaller DART extensions, Luas extensions and lines, Metrolink extensions, gradual Intercity electrification, etc.

riddlinrussell

Steady stream of projects is vital for retaining the skills as well, you can see in the number of senior staff on these projects doing talks who are like "well I got my start on x in Ireland, then worked on these projects in the UK/France etc, and now I'm working on Dart+" they just had to, no work for them here because there wasn't that steady stream.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122094023#Comment_122094023

Maybe it’ll just be a one track job with Kilcock and Maynooth both acting as terminus on the route. I’d gladly take that if I lived in Kilcock.

Pete_Cavan

I would hope that the plan for Kilcock is more than just an extension of electrification. The existing station should be replaced by a new station west of the R125 where there is more space. Ideally it would have a U shaped platform with DART terminus in the middle and through tracks either side, thus allowing for easy transfer to other trains in both directions. A pedestrian/cycle over bridge and across the canal would provide an easy link to the town centre and encourage cycling to/from the station.

I also think an additional station on the eastern side of the town would make ssense. There has been a lot of development there and this would avoid residents having to travel west in order to go east. It could be a basic station, even one platform would suffice as it wouldn't be served trains going west of Kilcock.

SeanW

With specific regard to Kilcock, is the R125 bridge high enough to allow catenary underneath?

The biggest problem at Kilcock as I see it is that the plans in the All Ireland Rail Review (or AIRR) is to restore double-tracking to Mullingar. That will be a problem at the current Kilcock station where space is tight. So something drastic will have to be done there regardless. Also, Maynooth makes a good interchange point between the long distance services and local Commuter service - a lot of students going to NUI Maynooth take the Sligo and Longford trains to Maynooth while those going to other places along the line use Maynooth station to change to the Commuter, and this would also need to be considered if extending the DART to Kilcock.

Though I do like the idea of a Kilcock East station.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122099149#Comment_122099149

The AISRR has no bearing on anything, it's not even worth mentioning.

The lack of space means that Maynooth will be extremely limited as an interchange station. It would be less an interchange, just Sligo trains stopping there in between DARTs.

At Kilcock, you could have new regional services (e.g. Longford to Kilcock) providing a useful level of frequency. Cross platform change to a waiting train would make it attractive. Could even develop a bit of passenger traffic between midlands towns on the line.

Ireland trains

Video about new DART fleet:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MFaW1RhaYDs

Some key points include:

They will be tested on battery power prior to moving onto overhead wires

BEMUs to be maintained in Drogheda

EMUs in Fairview

Due to delays in Dart plus programme, specifically the new depot, no new orders can be placed other than to replace the original Darts.

Batteries to be shipped separate to trains

It’s also mentioned that the interior will feel wider, does anyone know that the dimensions are compared to current stock?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122121230#Comment_122121230

They also mention that they modelled them for Cork commuter and they had excellent results and they also think they could be used for Limerick and Galway commuter services too. But that is all in the future once they have tested and proved them on the DART.

These sort of sound like Ikea trains to me! :) Some assembly needed, boogies and batteries need to be added in Inchicore! They will also have some plug based charging in Inchicore.

Excellent point about them not able to test them in mainland Europe due to the different rail gauge and how they need to be assembled and tested in Ireland instead. Shows what a pain in the hole Irish gauge is. It also goes to show what idiots people are who complain that Metrolink and Luas don't use Irish gauge! Them being standard gauge makes purchasing, manufacturing and testing so much easier.

Due to delays in Dart plus programme, specifically the new depot, no new orders can be placed other than to replace the original Darts.

FYI, they are talking about the Maynooth depot and DART's for the West and SW lines. Drogheda and Fairview will be able to take the BEMU's for the existing extended DART line.

SeanW

It seems absolutely incredible that the Railway Order for DART+ West hasn't been sorted out yet. 🤬

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122122268#Comment_122122268

2032 seems about right.

DaBluBoi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122122268#Comment_122122268

Anyone knows what’s the holdup for it?

A1ACo

I'm guessing the holdup on the depot is that the decision is in a queue in An Bord Pleanala.

As for the Irish gauge question, for the X'Trapolis product Irish Rail is getting, should testing and commissioning really be very big issue considering that it is a very tried and tested product overall, and Australia and Chile already have same/ similar broad gauge and same/ similar DC equivalents in the form of models 100, Modular and 2.0 (the latter 2.0 for Australia i think under construction and appears very similar 'box' body shape to Irish Rail's version). Is the Bi-mode version envisaged to bring commissioning headaches?

Otherwise on the bright side, maybe final assembly and commissioning here might give an opportunity for better in-house knowledge of the units, and maybe less reliance on outside consultants (if Irish Rail are 'allowed to watch the process!) in the future, and also to see any last minute hiccups/ snags.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122123471#Comment_122123471

The video says no new trains until the new depot built, and they reckon 2030 until that's ready. But you know that'll be delayed further with how things go in Ireland.

Also, what's up with the depot being described as Maynooth, when it's in Kilcock?

KrisW1001

It's beyond the planned DART terminus at Maynooth station, so it's the "Maynooth Depot".

But the video does not say there would be "no new trains until 2030".What he said was that there's maintenance capacity at Drogheda and Inchicore for new trains now on the Coastal North, and that future orders of non-battery EMUs to replace the existing fleet would be housed at Fairview.

What he said about 2030 and Maynooth was that this depot is needed before trains for DART+ West can be ordered, because there's no place else to hold that much extra rolling stock, and thus delays in planning could push out the ordering of new trains for DART+ West.

DART+ West also requires the electrification of the Western line, including several new structures. Construction of the depot will happen in parallel to that work. 2029/30 is about right if construction starts next year.

The trains now ordered should be entering into service on the existing DART system in 2025.

A1ACo

Just for a quick comparison, i've put the links to the X'trapolis similar versions I mentioned above (and a narrow gauge version) just below. Also, as an interesting note - it seems that Australia (NSW) is also getting a bi-mode version of the CAF Civity - and the similar Civia informed the front design at least - of the broad gauge, 3kv EMU version of Alstom X'Trapolis for Chile. The latest versions of all of these appear to be coming on stream from circa 2022-2023.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/X%27Trapolis_Modular

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X%27Trapolis_2.0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transperth_C-series_train

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X%27Trapolis_100

And the CAF bi-mode reference for NSW - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales_R_set

The new units for Irish Rail would re above width query appear to be as wide, if not wider than the original LHB DARTs (that are 2.92m width?) but in shorter carriages, various Wikipedia articles mention IR carriage widths - all just under/ over the 2.9m mark.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122124536#Comment_122124536

I was just being succinct. He said no more trains ordered until the new depot is complete. Not counting any dart replacements, but that’s not really going to add any new trains, if it happens any time soon.

Regarding the depot, I’d just prefer if they stuck with one name or the other, rather than some people calling it Maynooth depot, and others Kilcock depot. It’s miles from Maynooth. 😂

Zebra3

It’s roughly 6km between the two stations so from the edge of Maynooth to the edge of the depot won’t be what people would describe as “miles” even if it’s two miles.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122129516#Comment_122129516

Sorry mate, but the railway is measured in miles, not kilometres. 😂

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130042#Comment_122130042

Was, maybe. All of the engineering plans for these projects are marked out in metres.

Sam Russell

Even the gauge is metric - 1.600 metres - and always was.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130171#Comment_122130171

Nope, still miles. Quarter at a time.

Edit: Just had a quick look, and Maynooth is just 200 yards short of 15 miles, Kilcock is 18.5 miles, and the new depot in Kilcock is at 17 miles.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130309#Comment_122130309

Nope, was always 5'3". The fact that it comes out at exactly 1600mm is a total coincidence, it was not intended to be a round number of millimetres when it was chosen in the 19th century.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130042#Comment_122130042

It doesn't work that way, the railways may use miles internally but he's free to talk about km if he wants!

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130857#Comment_122130857

I know how it works. That’s why I jokingly used miles for the distances. Using metric doesn’t bother me at all, but I’ll always know the stations and landmarks by their mileposts. I’m not even sure if route maps are available in metric.

KrisW1001

That's fine, but the project that we are talking about does not use miles, or yards or feet. Everything is specified in SI units. When you look at the drawings, all chainage is in kilometres. Using a different system of units to discuss these plans is annoying.

Yes, there are "mile posts" on the lines, but that doesn't mean that imperial measures are still used throughout the railway. Those are just location markers that for historical reasons are spaced every 402 metres along the trackside. Moving them to 500m distances and updating operating materials to match would cost a good bit of money for no real benefit, so they stay where they are. But metric units are used for all design and construction.

(I bet there's a document somewhere in IE that gives the exact distance in metres of every one of those mile posts from the origin point of each line)

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122128460#Comment_122128460

Thank you for that. I'm surprised that simple measurement details are not easily available online for the public.

I'm really just curious to see if IR have made best use of the loading gauge, especially with each "carriage" being so short. They should (unless I'm missing some info) easily be able to be 3,100 mm in width (10' 2" in old money) but looking at photos and videos, they don't look to be any wider that the current EMU fleet. Having said that, what you can see on a screen versus what you see in real life can be rather different.

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122130042#Comment_122130042

Not sure what that has anything to do with what I posted.

Citizen Six

Just jokingly letting you know that distance between stations is measured in miles, not kilometres, as you stated.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122132127#Comment_122132127

Sam Russell

Mod: Units of measure are not relevant here, unless they use the wrong ones. Can we leave it now!