Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

ElNino · 11-07-2018 5:52pm

No agreement reached in talks. Strike goes ahead.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0711/977836-ryanair/

trellheim · 11-07-2018 5:53pm

Strike is on

https://twitter.com/Ryanair/status/1017086362653208576

ha ha op above beat me to it

Danielvarian1 · 11-07-2018 5:55pm

trellheim wrote: »

Strike is on

https://twitter.com/Ryanair/status/1017086362653208576

Time for me to book aerlingus tickets to cover ourselves for the 24th going to Rome, one way.

Bob24 · 11-07-2018 6:02pm

ElNino wrote: »

No agreement reached in talks. Strike goes ahead.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0711/977836-ryanair/

As expected. Now the next interesting thing will be tomorrow to see how large the nuisance power of full time employees is and if as announced no more that 30 flights will be cancelled.

trellheim · 11-07-2018 6:07pm

Wonder where they'll be picketing . dont forget if they picket the roundabout it'll cause mayhem

billie1b · 11-07-2018 6:10pm

trellheim wrote: »

Wonder where they'll be picketing . dont forget if they picket the roundabout it'll cause mayhem

Picketing the main airport roundabout! Hope it causes mayhem

Brendan Bendar · 11-07-2018 6:14pm

billie1b wrote: »

Picketing the main airport roundabout! Hope it causes mayhem

Whoooy?

L1011 · 11-07-2018 6:17pm

Danielvarian1 wrote: »

So they can basically just decide to strike at any time as long as a weeks notice is given?

And the strike notice is otherwise legally valid; e.g. strikes have been injuncted due to the ballot being fundamentally faulty.

Spanish Eyes · 11-07-2018 6:17pm

I love Ryanair, honestly whatever you may think, it works. Has a formula, and if you obey the rules it's game on.

Now.... I'm not so sure. Going to Espana in Sep, always take the Ryanair flight because of timings. Took AL a few times, and there were ALWAYS delays, sub three hours obv which killed me. Like it was organised, but probably not, I'd better be pragmatic here and I know they have a good record generally.

So I might change loyalties to AL now.

But a few years ago I wouldn't travel with AL because of all THEIR strikes. Jayzis.

Mebuntu · 11-07-2018 6:42pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I love Ryanair, honestly whatever you may think, it works. Has a formula, and if you obey the rules it's game on.

Now.... I'm not so sure. Going to Espana in Sep, always take the Ryanair flight because of timings. Took AL a few times, and there were ALWAYS delays, sub three hours obv which killed me. Like it was organised, but probably not, I'd better be pragmatic here and I know they have a good record generally.

So I might change loyalties to AL now.

But a few years ago I wouldn't travel with AL because of all THEIR strikes. Jayzis.

If your friend was being attacked would you support your friend or look the other way and seek out a new friend

CoisFharraige · 11-07-2018 7:58pm

It’ll be interesting to see if it is indeed just the ‘small’ amount of flights that get cancelled, bearing in mind they never made public the cancelled flights and we are only taking them for their word which doesn’t necessarily always merit the most... honest result. Remember, they could always cancel a few more flights tomorrow to Europe and blame it on whatever excuse they can come up with, knowing all along they would cancel them due to the strike. Although this wouldn’t make sense as passengers re-accommodated is a lot better than passengers sitting around an airport.

Also picketing will be very interesting to see, yes.

View Profile · 11-07-2018 8:34pm

Mebuntu wrote:

If your friend was being attacked would you support your friend or look the other way and seek out a new friend

If his friend was a known bully then he deserves what he gets.

billy few mates · 11-07-2018 8:59pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I love Ryanair, honestly whatever you may think, it works. Has a formula, and if you obey the rules it's game on.

Now.... I'm not so sure. Going to Espana in Sep, always take the Ryanair flight because of timings. Took AL a few times, and there were ALWAYS delays, sub three hours obv which killed me. Like it was organised, but probably not, I'd better be pragmatic here and I know they have a good record generally.

So I might change loyalties to AL now.

But a few years ago I wouldn't travel with AL because of all THEIR strikes. Jayzis.

If your friend was being attacked would you support your friend or look the other way and seek out a new friend

Sweet baby jeebers....

billy few mates · 11-07-2018 9:06pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I love Ryanair, honestly whatever you may think, it works. Has a formula, and if you obey the rules it's game on.

Now.... I'm not so sure. Going to Espana in Sep, always take the Ryanair flight because of timings. Took AL a few times, and there were ALWAYS delays, sub three hours obv which killed me. Like it was organised, but probably not, I'd better be pragmatic here and I know they have a good record generally.

So I might change loyalties to AL now.

But a few years ago I wouldn't travel with AL because of all THEIR strikes. Jayzis.

I like them too but I only use them occasionally, if I get the flight for feck all and it's not much longer than an hour or so (because I find the seats uncomfortable after that, and I love to recline).
I don't trust them with flights that are important to me (Christmas, holidays, important business etc).
I'm going on holiday next week, I booked it about six months ago and paid a slight premium to travel with another carrier and will continue to do so until this thing is sorted 100%..

Brendan Bendar · 11-07-2018 10:06pm

billy few mates wrote: »

I like them too but I only use them occasionally, if I get the flight for feck all and it's not much longer than an hour or so (because I find the seats uncomfortable after that, and I love to recline).
I don't trust them with flights that are important to me (Christmas, holidays, important business etc).
I'm going on holiday next week, I booked it about six months ago and paid a slight premium to travel with another carrier and will continue to do so until this thing is sorted 100%..

You could be waiting quite a long time William

IngazZagni · 11-07-2018 10:14pm

I think Ryanair will bring in lots of scab pilots from other countries to keep most of the flights operating but this is not something that can be sustained long term if there are multiple strikes in the near future.

Brendan Bendar · 11-07-2018 11:02pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

I think Ryanair will bring in lots of scab pilots from other countries to keep most of the flights operating but this is not something that can be sustained long term if there are multiple strikes in the near future.

The company is entitled to mitigate the results of industrial action.

Your description is despicable and shows poor judgement.

billy few mates · 11-07-2018 11:20pm

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

billy few mates wrote: »

I like them too but I only use them occasionally, if I get the flight for feck all and it's not much longer than an hour or so (because I find the seats uncomfortable after that, and I love to recline).
I don't trust them with flights that are important to me (Christmas, holidays, important business etc).
I'm going on holiday next week, I booked it about six months ago and paid a slight premium to travel with another carrier and will continue to do so until this thing is sorted 100%..

You could be waiting quite a long time William

I can wait, thankfully there’s plenty of choice out there...

12-07-2018 8:58am

Just listening to the Pilots union spokesperson on the radio and I think the pilots have already lost the fight. The big fight seems to be where to hold the meetings.

I would rarely, if ever use another carrier.

Mebuntu · 12-07-2018 9:44am

Deleted User wrote: »

I meant the caliber of their union rep was below par. Not very coherent or forceful.

I agree. It was probably the most pathetic and unconvincing performance by any union rep I have ever heard.

Bob24 · 12-07-2018 9:48am

Mebuntu wrote: »

I agree. It was probably the most pathetic and unconvincing performance by any union rep I have ever heard.

Is there a recording available online?

12-07-2018 10:19am

Bob24 wrote: »

Is there a recording available online?

I’d imagine so. It was Morning Ireland on RTÉ radio 1

Mebuntu · 12-07-2018 10:31am

Bob24 wrote: »

Is there a recording available online?

Probably available at https://www.rte.ie/radio1/morning-ireland/

Might not be up yet.

Bob24 · 12-07-2018 11:23am

Cheers, the recording is here: https://cdn.rasset.ie/manifest/audio/2018/0712/20180712_rteradio1-morningireland-ryanairstr_c21397894_21397938_261_/manifest.m3u8

The rep is clearly not a good speaker indeed and she needs to up her game or find someone else to attend media interviews.

Wouldn’t say they have lost the fight just because of that performance though ...

Mebuntu · 12-07-2018 11:51am

The problem for the union is that their usual spokesperson is an Aer Lingus person through and through and, sure, they couldn't put him out there in this dispute. It would make things even more obvious.

Bob24 · 12-07-2018 12:12pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

The problem for the union is that their usual spokesperson is an Aer Lingus person through and through and, sure, they couldn't put him out there in this dispute. It would make things even more obvious.

There must be a few Ryanair pilots who have good communication skills, but the issue might be that pilots don’t want to expose themselves as they fear Ryanair will retaliate against them personally and it will negatively influence their career / work conditions.

billy few mates · 12-07-2018 12:25pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

The problem for the union is that their usual spokesperson is an Aer Lingus person through and through and, sure, they couldn't put him out there in this dispute. It would make things even more obvious.

What would become more obvious..?

billy few mates · 12-07-2018 12:34pm

Bob24 wrote: »

Cheers, the recording is here: https://cdn.rasset.ie/manifest/audio/2018/0712/20180712_rteradio1-morningireland-ryanairstr_c21397894_21397938_261_/manifest.m3u8

The rep is clearly not a good speaker indeed and she needs to up her game or find someone else to attend media interviews.

Wouldn’t say they have lost the fight just because of that performance though ...

Pretty bad alright, it wasn't even a tough interview, she just choked and ended up stuttering and talking rubbish.

Mebuntu · 12-07-2018 12:36pm

Bob24 wrote: »

There must be a few Ryanair pilots who have good communication skills, but the issue might be that pilots don’t want to expose themselves as they fear Ryanair will retaliate against them personally and it will negatively influence their career / work conditions.

I'd be inclined to the view that Ryanair already knows who they are dealing with.

This problem may be unique in that IALPA was formed by and for the benefit of Aer Lingus pilots and, therefore, can never be seen as "neutral" where a dispute with another airline is involved.

Bob24 · 12-07-2018 12:57pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

I'd be inclined to the view that Ryanair already knows who they are dealing with.

They know alright, but between being internally identified as unhappy and becoming a public figure expressing the voice of the whole group, there is a big difference. I don’t see MOL as willing to accept that one of his pilots portray the company in the media differently from the official corporate line, even if it is done as a union representative rather than in their personal name. So I was one of the pilots I think I would be seriously comcerned about picking up any role in the union which requires media exposure.

12-07-2018 4:39pm

https://www.facebook.com/RuthCoppingerTD/videos/1762350617188905/

Theyve got Solidarity in their corner so they’re really fecked.

billy few mates · 12-07-2018 4:49pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

I'd be inclined to the view that Ryanair already knows who they are dealing with.

This problem may be unique in that IALPA was formed by and for the benefit of Aer Lingus pilots and, therefore, can never be seen as "neutral" where a dispute with another airline is involved.

Michael...? Is that you...?

Mebuntu · 12-07-2018 7:47pm

billy few mates wrote: »

Michael...? Is that you...?

:)
Ah now, you're not going to dispute history are you?

From IALPA's own website:
https://ialpa.net/history/

L1011 · 12-07-2018 7:52pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

:)
Ah now, you're not going to dispute history are you?

From IALPA's own website:
https://ialpa.net/history/

History is of zero relevance here. Sectoral trade unions often began as unions for a specific employer; broad unions often began as unions for a specific sector and possibly a specific employer in that union. Origins are not brought up as they have impact.

This argument has come up before and it is clutching at straws at best.

ted1 · 12-07-2018 7:52pm

Can I clarify something:
The strike is because they want the older staff to get better treated than the new staff?

The last teachers strike was because the older staff are getting better treated ( because of a union agreement)

Is that correct ?

Also aren’t the older staff the only staff in the union as newer staff are agency they Actually stand to lose if the others get better treated.

ted1 · 12-07-2018 7:56pm

billy few mates wrote: »

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Bill, it’s always about money if you drill down.

Now you can put seniority issues, base changes on promotion an other stuff in there, but it’s money, Bill, always money.

What money are they looking for in this dispute...?
This is about a seniority system...

It’s to test the Union and build their numbers if they win the next strike will be about money

Peter File · 12-07-2018 7:56pm

ted1 wrote: »

Can I clarify something:
The strike is because they want the older staff to get better treated than the new staff?

The last teachers strike was because the older staff are getting better treated ( because of a union agreement)

Is that correct ?

Also aren’t the older staff the only staff in the union as newer staff are agency they Actually stand to lose if the others get better treated.

That is exactly how it appears to be.
2 more strike days coming as well.

L1011 · 12-07-2018 8:01pm

ted1 wrote: »

Can I clarify something:
The strike is because they want the older staff to get better treated than the new staff?

Its more that they'd like to have some structured system for how they are treated; even if it ends up being the same for everyone. Current system is cryptic even to those inside it. Leave is a fairly severe issue in an airline that hasn't got enough staff of course, that's rather unconnected to this...

Seniority systems for benefits of any kind are fundamentally wrong and the teachers are about the only work-group who are standing up to it - although their unions agreed to it originally as you said. Particularly any system that gives senior, experienced staff easier rides when new, less experienced staff are given the complicated stuff is actually illogical from a safety perspective. That's what traditional airline seniority does; and Dublin Buses system, amongst others.

VG31 · 12-07-2018 8:05pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I love Ryanair, honestly whatever you may think, it works. Has a formula, and if you obey the rules it's game on.

Now.... I'm not so sure. Going to Espana in Sep, always take the Ryanair flight because of timings. Took AL a few times, and there were ALWAYS delays, sub three hours obv which killed me. Like it was organised, but probably not, I'd better be pragmatic here and I know they have a good record generally.

I'm flying Ryanair for the first time in two years soon (out of necessity), and the Flightradar24 history shows that the flight has been delayed significantly (30 minutes plus) 20 times in the last month. The average is about one hour late but some days the flight has been delayed by more than two hours.

Mebuntu · 12-07-2018 8:38pm

L1011 wrote: »

History is of zero relevance here. Sectoral trade unions often began as unions for a specific employer; broad unions often began as unions for a specific sector and possibly a specific employer in that union. Origins are not brought up as they have impact.

This argument has come up before and it is clutching at straws at best.

I would disagree with your opinion as expressed above. History is proving to be very relevant in this dispute. On top of that the history of the, let me put it this way, "differences" between the IALPA president and Ryanair is very much relevant and in the public domain. If it is proven that the DAA received correspondence from him of upcoming disruptions to Ryanair flights before the pilots' ballot was even completed then that is also very significant.

I have no doubt that, if the boot was on the other foot, Aer Lingus management would not negotiate with anyone with Ryanair connections.

It would be interesting to know what airlines the Past Presidents listed on that IALPA page flew for.

It is also noticeable that "seniority" didn't count for anything in '97 and 2001 with "lowly" F/O and S/FO by-passing Captains for the position they had held for 50 years.

L1011 · 12-07-2018 8:46pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

It would be interesting to know what airlines the Past Presidents listed on that IALPA page flew for.

If there was only one large airline with IALPA members when they were president, you know well what airline they flew for and it is still completely irrelevant.

We had this argument trotted out before - it is senseless and if you spend ten seconds thinking about it that becomes obvious. If IALPA wanted to unionise Ryanair to benefit Aer Lingus it would be self-defeating basically immediately as the larger cohort of Ryanair pilots would be able to outvote them on everything.

Unions change. IALPA clearly has.

Mebuntu · 12-07-2018 9:12pm

L1011 wrote: »

If there was only one large airline with IALPA members when they were president, you know well what airline they flew for and it is still completely irrelevant.

Apart from Mr. Cullen I have no idea who the others were or who they flew for. If you are suggesting that all of them were from Aer Lingus then that tells its own story.

If IALPA wanted to unionise Ryanair to benefit Aer Lingus

I never suggested that at all, at all.

Danielvarian1 · 12-07-2018 9:13pm

Lucky for me I booked 2 single tickets for Aer Lingus to Rome on the 24th, and can use our Ryanair return on the way. Thinking ahead always works out.

Bob24 · 12-07-2018 9:21pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

I never suggested that at all, at all.

This was pretty close to suggesting it to be fair:

Mebuntu wrote: »

This problem may be unique in that IALPA was formed by and for the benefit of Aer Lingus pilots and, therefore, can never be seen as "neutral" where a dispute with another airline is involved.

If you were not suggesting that the union is being used to benefit Aer Lingus in this case, then why can they not be seen as neutral to represent Ryanair pilots?

L1011 · 12-07-2018 9:25pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

that tells its own story.

Of irrelevance.

Mebuntu wrote: »

I never suggested that at all, at all.

What were you implying then?

12-07-2018 10:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/RuthCoppingerTD/videos/1762350617188905/

Theyve got Solidarity in their corner so they’re really fecked.

Clare Daly now on Primetime.

Not a good look alright.

Isnt she ex-aer-lingus too?

12-07-2018 10:10pm

Are the captains on 156k? wow

Brendan Bendar · 12-07-2018 10:14pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Clare Daly now on Primetime.

Not a good look alright.

Isnt she ex-aer-lingus too?

Yes she is, probably on leave of absence, like Coppinger.

L1011 · 12-07-2018 10:19pm

She was in Catering as far as I know. The price of the breakfast went down by 2 quid after she left...

I would hope they don't have a structure like the teachers do for indefinite leave for this purpose.

CoisFharraige · 12-07-2018 10:44pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Are the captains on 156k? wow

No, the majority wouldn’t be. Ryanair’s way of quoting salaries is of their very very top-earning captains, of which there are only a handful, and using that as ‘this is what our captains earn’, when in reality it is much lower (100K lower based on recent figures they published). Also, they take into account PRSI etc and other expenses they pay for pilots as employers and astutely say ‘we pay X for our pilots’ when that figure isn’t what they earn.

Ryanair Strike, Industrial relations discussion Mod note in post 1

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