Drought....Hosepipe Ban.... next they'll be calling for Water meters

kurtainsider · 08-07-2018 11:58pm

beveragelady wrote: »

So water should be provided for free to a section of the population just because that's the way it has always been? Nonsense. Progress happens when people realise that "the way it has always been" isn't good enough.

You say all this as though there's a line on my paycheque telling me how much has been deducted specifically to pay for water. I pay tax, and it goes in a huge number of directions to keep the country running. I don't like paying tax but I don't have a choice so I try to be philosophical about it. It is, however, unjust that I pay for water for other people when it is possible to measure how much they use so they can pay for it themselves.

Your arguments are based on hypotheticals and hot air.

You've lost me there beveragelady. Anyway goodnight.

beveragelady · 09-07-2018 12:00am

kurtainsider wrote: »

You've lost me there beveragelady. Anyway goodnight.

I'm counting this as a win.

kurtainsider · 09-07-2018 12:04am

Do that beveragelady if it makes you happy.

Best of luck you.

beveragelady · 09-07-2018 12:07am

kurtainsider wrote: »

Do that beveragelady if it makes you happy.

Best of luck you.

It does make me happy! Dr Phil says "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?"
Being right makes me happy.

Good of you to admit defeat and bow out gracefully.

kurtainsider · 09-07-2018 12:13am

beveragelady wrote: »

It does make me happy! Dr Phil says "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?"
Being right makes me happy.

Good of you to admit defeat and bow out gracefully.

You're welcome beveragelady. There are people who you shouldn't engage in arguments with and you're one of them.

beveragelady · 09-07-2018 12:17am

kurtainsider wrote: »

You're welcome beveragelady. There are people who you shouldn't engage in arguments with and you're one of them.

Arguing is fun until you're outgunned, it's true. Give the matter some thought and if you come up with any solid points or rebuttal I'll be happy to resume your education.

the_pen_turner · 09-07-2018 12:21am

at the end of the day my tax (and everyone elses) is going towards IW who supply water to everyone with a mains conection for no further fee.
we have a well so receive nothing for that tax.

we also pay to drill, maintain ,soften esb, sewerage costs to supply ourslves with water .

so i am paying twice if not more what someone who is on a main conection is paying .

beveragelady · 09-07-2018 12:28am

the_pen_turner wrote: »

at the end of the day my tax (and everyone elses) is going towards IW who supply water to everyone with a mains conection for no further fee.
we have a well so receive nothing for that tax.

we also pay to drill, maintain ,soften esb, sewerage costs to supply ourslves with water .

so i am paying twice if not more what someone who is on a main conection is paying .

What is strange though is how little airtime this viewpoint got when the Irish Water debacle was all over the airwaves. I offered a similar argument at work a while ago and a number of people had just never considered the possibility that there was another aspect to the story, or the possibility that the eejits roaring through megaphones or propping up bars preaching about the injustice of water meters were wrong.

Ubbquittious · 09-07-2018 12:57am

the_pen_turner wrote: »

at the end of the day my tax (and everyone elses) is going towards IW who supply water to everyone with a mains conection for no further fee.
we have a well so receive nothing for that tax.

we also pay to drill, maintain ,soften esb, sewerage costs to supply ourslves with water .

so i am paying twice if not more what someone who is on a main conection is paying .

That might be true but it doesn't make IW any less of a pointless middleman with some nice offices in Dublin filled with people paid to market water to people. Perhaps they even have some people paid to prepare tor the day that you'll be able to ""switch"" water supplier similar to how you can switch to Panda electricity despite them having feck all to do with generating electricity or the infrastructure. The actual supplying of the actual water doesn't require IW or similar pointless entity to exist.

Like with electricity meters the charges disproportionally affect the less well off. You'll see some people short on cash skimping but plenty who won't mind paying a tenner to fill their Lidl swimming pool. That tenner won't go into replenishing the infrastructure either because they have all those digital marketing experts and social media ninjagurus in Dublin to pay at the end of each month

nthclare · 09-07-2018 12:57am

beveragelady wrote: »

Are you saying they claim to own all the water?

Yes they claim to own what ever falls from the skies, runs down a mountain, lake's,streams clouds blowing in from the atlantic...humidity...frost...snow ice

They lay claim to it all, if Paudi down the road saves the water running off his gutter into a barrel for his goat, the water is theirs...
They had a right to charge him for it.

There's something really Orwellian about Irish water...

They tried to Fck us all "over"

Sure the cronies even wanted to dived us by getting us to rat out our neighbour's if we see them with a hose pipe...

A shower of ruthless narcissists they are...

beveragelady · 09-07-2018 1:08am

nthclare wrote: »

Yes they claim to own what ever falls from the skies, runs down a mountain, lake's,streams clouds blowing in from the atlantic...humidity...frost...snow ice

They lay claim to it all, if Paudi down the road saves the water running off his gutter into a barrel for his goat, the water is theirs...
They had a right to charge him for it.

That's just not true. They own the means to provide water to those on the mains supply, they don't at all claim to own all the water in Ireland! They don't own the water in my well, but they own the pipes that bring water from their reservoirs to houses on the mains. That infrastructure is what needs to be paid for.

Electricity is free once you know how to generate it, but you're happy to let others take care of the infrastructure and technicalities and pay them for their time and expertise. Water is exactly the same.

Tell you what, if you really hate them that much, cut them off. Take care of your own water supply. Collect it, store it, purify it and pump it, all without any help from Irish Water. You'll quickly see that while water itself falls from the sky and rises out of the ground, it is an ongoing cost to have it flowing in your house on demand.

SuperS54 · 09-07-2018 4:33am

A possible solution to the whole "pay twice" issue is to give everyone a quota of water, if you come in under quota on your meter you get a tax rebate, over quota and you don't.

Ardent · 09-07-2018 9:16am

SuperS54 wrote: »

A possible solution to the whole "pay twice" issue is to give everyone a quota of water, if you come in under quota on your meter you get a tax rebate, over quota and you don't.

Yes but part of the shambles, as said earlier, is that some folks on water mains don't have - nor will likely ever have- a meter. For example, those living in apartments.

SuperS54 · 09-07-2018 9:22am

Ardent wrote: »

Yes but part of the shambles, as said earlier, is that some folks on water mains don't have - nor will likely ever have- a meter. For example, those living in apartments.

Where there's a will there's a way. I've lived in apartments in China and they had water meters (actually prepaid meters so you had to pay for your water in advance), I've lived in quite a number of apartments in Taiwan and they also have all had water meters. Irish water seem to have spent a fortune on trying to re-invent the wheel.

Chris_Heilong · 09-07-2018 9:28am

You all sound like a bunch of hippies, It is like this obsession with recycling...newsflash you are not making the world a better place and anything you do is just a drop in the ocean.

Mr.H · 09-07-2018 9:32am

beveragelady wrote:

Tell you what, if you really hate them that much, cut them off. Take care of your own water supply. Collect it, store it, purify it and pump it, all without any help from Irish Water. You'll quickly see that while water itself falls from the sky and rises out of the ground, it is an ongoing cost to have it flowing in your house on demand.

Except one of their rules was that you were not allowed to harvest your own water.

Water has been and still is paid for through taxation.

And here is one further. This "drought" is a lie. We just came off the back of one of our worst ever winters. Record snow and rain. There should be no shortage of water. Its all lies to sell us jobs for the lads.

Irish water is a government entity. The only way that paying for water isnt a stealth tax is if you have competition in the market. But then again i doubt the pro charges campaign would even try to think for themselves let alone realise that.

2smiggy · 09-07-2018 9:57am

my dad growing up had a well at the bottom of the village that people used to go down to pump their own water by hand. his thinking is people who want clean water pumped into their house should pay for it. all those who don't can go to a well and pump it themselves. as is their 'right' to water and all that.

nthclare · 09-07-2018 9:58am

beveragelady wrote: »

That's just not true. They own the means to provide water to those on the mains supply, they don't at all claim to own all the water in Ireland! They don't own the water in my well, but they own the pipes that bring water from their reservoirs to houses on the mains. That infrastructure is what needs to be paid for.

Electricity is free once you know how to generate it, but you're happy to let others take care of the infrastructure and technicalities and pay them for their time and expertise. Water is exactly the same.

Tell you what, if you really hate them that much, cut them off. Take care of your own water supply. Collect it, store it, purify it and pump it, all without any help from Irish Water. You'll quickly see that while water itself falls from the sky and rises out of the ground, it is an ongoing cost to have it flowing in your house on demand.

You're 100% wrong Irish water lay claim to every drop of water that falls from the skies, melts in the winter, within the fog, clouds and bogs...

We pay for water through taxation already.

You mentioned hate not I

2smiggy · 09-07-2018 10:04am

Mr.H wrote: »

And here is one further. This "drought" is a lie. We just came off the back of one of our worst ever winters. Record snow and rain. There should be no shortage of water. Its all lies to sell us jobs for the lads.

you do know there are finite reservoirs , and a limited capacity ? And you might notice in heavy rain the rivers may occasionally burst there banks due to the excess water, on there way to dumping the water back into the sea ?

the_pen_turner · 09-07-2018 10:10am

Mr.H wrote: »

Except one of their rules was that you were not allowed to harvest your own water.

Water has been and still is paid for through taxation.

And here is one further. This "drought" is a lie. We just came off the back of one of our worst ever winters. Record snow and rain. There should be no shortage of water. Its all lies to sell us jobs for the lads.

Irish water is a government entity. The only way that paying for water isnt a stealth tax is if you have competition in the market. But then again i doubt the pro charges campaign would even try to think for themselves let alone realise that.

IW needs to be permanently part of the state. Referendum needed to sell it

Strip everything out of general tax

Limit staff wages to proper levels

Work out appropriate charges pet liter including a budget to up grade pipes

Government to set up grants to reduce water usage

Not sure how you could have other suppliers. Good idea but hard to implement.

Donald Trump · 09-07-2018 10:12am

Benteke wrote: »

Definition of stupidity is to pay for your water twice, So they can fcuk off

You might want to invest in a better dictionary.

Did you get a free one from Richard Boyd-Barret or something? :pac:

sbsquarepants · 09-07-2018 10:28am

Surely in this day and age there is a better solution than treating every drop of water and then pumping it to a manky tank in the attic so it can be used for showers and flushing toilets!

This is a wet country - droughts are not an existential threat, it could be decades before we see a run of weather like this again. The problem is not lack of rain it's lack of processing capacity and the seemingly accepted fact that half of everything we do process, we basically just spill on the ground.

It is pointless telling people to conserve water, while simultaneously wasting half your water. I watered some of the plants out my back last night, just the ones that looked thirsty - I used a watering can and kept track of how much I used - 180L.

I could let them die and save enough water to keep the leaks going for roughly another 1/16th of 1 second - now wouldn't that just make all the difference. If I do that every second day for the month I've basically used 1 seconds worth of the water that's pissed away to god knows where.

Maybe worry about fixing that first and how people brush their teeth second!

beveragelady · 09-07-2018 10:32am

Can anybody provide a link that shows that IW don't let you harvest your own water?

sbsquarepants · 09-07-2018 10:35am

beveragelady wrote: »

Can anybody provide a link that shows that IW don't let you harvest your own water?

I'd be quite surprised to be honest!

BarryD2 · 09-07-2018 10:41am

Mr.H wrote: »

And here is one further. This "drought" is a lie. We just came off the back of one of our worst ever winters. Record snow and rain. There should be no shortage of water. Its all lies to sell us jobs for the lads.

Ranks with one of the most insular and uninformed things I've read from the anti-water charges mindset!

You wait & see - when public water supplies to greater Dublin lower to a trickle, you'll be begging for a solution, any solution, at any cost to yourselves.

Metering and payment towards usage is utterly logical and inevitable. It will encourage moderate use and help fund the repair of leaks that you continually refer to.

Wait for reality to bite.

wexie · 09-07-2018 10:50am

beveragelady wrote: »

Can anybody provide a link that shows that IW don't let you harvest your own water?

I would be shocked if there was such a thing, can't imagine how it could possible be legal.

Perhaps large scale water harvesting but there is nothing to stop anyone from popping an IBC under the gutters to keep the vegetable patch going. If anything it should be encouraged.

09-07-2018 10:55am

I would expect them to have rules about rainwater harvesting but only in the area of preventing untreated stored water accidentally flowing back in to the drinkable mains supply.

wexie · 09-07-2018 10:57am

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I would expect them to have rules about rainwater harvesting but only in the area of preventing untreated stored water accidentally flowing back in to the drinkable mains supply.

Which would just be sensible really.

If there are any rules about water harvesting I would think it'd be more along the lines of : thou shalt not build dams on the streams on your property to water thy vegetable patch.

beveragelady · 09-07-2018 11:22am

The closest I can find is that there would be a charge if the harvested water, once used, was processed through public sewerage. It's complete nonsense to suggest that there are (or were) rules against harvesting rainwater, or gathering your own water in any other way. In fact on the website they encourage rainwater harvesting to water gardens.
This is exactly the sort of stupid argument dim people made, and very dim people got worked up about, when there were protests against paying for water.

wexie · 09-07-2018 11:24am

beveragelady wrote: »

The closest I can find is that there would be a charge if the harvested water, once used, was processed through public sewerage.

So bloody typical to set up a rule like that when they know they have absolutely no way of ever enforcing it or even know when to enforce it.

Like they were ever going to have meters on the sewage?

beveragelady · 09-07-2018 11:27am

wexie wrote: »

So bloody typical to set up a rule like that when they know they have absolutely no way of ever enforcing it or even know when to enforce it.

Like they were ever going to have meters on the sewage?

Presumably it could only apply to those on public sewerage. A flat fee, maybe? Fair enough, I say, though unenforceable. Still, not the same as those wild claims that they own all the water and we can't collect it ourselves.

K.Flyer · 09-07-2018 11:31am

wexie wrote: »

Like they were ever going to have meters on the sewage?

The basis for waste water treatment charging is based on Water In / Water Out. Its nothing new on commercial premises.

K.Flyer · 09-07-2018 11:36am

beveragelady wrote: »

Can anybody provide a link that shows that IW don't let you harvest your own water?

Dublin City Council - Rainwater Harvesting

Well the Dublin City council encourages harvesting on their web site, so I doubt there are any restrictions on harvesting as long as its from your own property and you don't cause that water to contaminate the mains supply.

wexie · 09-07-2018 11:41am

K.Flyer wrote: »

The basis for waste water treatment charging is based on Water In / Water Out. Its nothing new on commercial premises.

So is sewage already metered on commercial premises?

GreeBo · 09-07-2018 11:51am

the_pen_turner wrote: »

at the end of the day my tax (and everyone elses) is going towards IW who supply water to everyone with a mains conection for no further fee.
we have a well so receive nothing for that tax.

we also pay to drill, maintain ,soften esb, sewerage costs to supply ourslves with water .

so i am paying twice if not more what someone who is on a main conection is paying .

Do you feel hard done by that you dont get to drive on every stretch of road in Ireland considering its *your* tax pays for all the roads?

How about that you dont get to spend time in hospital everyday or that you don't get to use the light from every streetlight in Ireland every night?

I don't understand why people think water is magically different from all these other things?

If you want to be part of a functioning society then you dont get to pick and choose what your contributions get used for, all you can do is influence those that are elected.

my3cents · 09-07-2018 11:56am

K.Flyer wrote: »

Dublin City Council - Rainwater Harvesting

Well the Dublin City council encourages harvesting on their web site, so I doubt there are any restrictions on harvesting as long as its from your own property and you don't cause that water to contaminate the mains supply.

I'm looking into the legality of taking water from the river that runs across my property. From research so far it seems that you can legally take up to 25,000 liters a day from a water source on you property without having any form of licence or even registering the fact.

Most of the information I can find about this is due to the fact that Ireland isn't up to speed with the EU and hasn't implemented a register of users that take more than 25,000 liters a day. It seems our laws on water abstraction are based on old English law.

the_pen_turner · 09-07-2018 11:57am

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you feel hard done by that you dont get to drive on every stretch of road in Ireland considering its *your* tax pays for all the roads?

How about that you dont get to spend time in hospital everyday or that you don't get to use the light from every streetlight in Ireland every night?

I don't understand why people think water is magically different from all these other things?

If you want to be part of a functioning society then you dont get to pick and choose what your contributions get used for, all you can do is influence those that are elected.

completely separate things.
I use the roads directly and indirectly. I am getting what I am paying for.

I don't use the public water . I have no way to. So I pay and receive nothing.

blackcard · 09-07-2018 11:58am

beveragelady wrote: »

Can anybody provide a link that shows that IW don't let you harvest your own water?

Fake news

ectoraige · 09-07-2018 11:59am

railer201 wrote: »

So let's suppose we all have water meters and are being charged €3 per 1000 litres (ballpark charge in UK). We go to Lidl and buy that swimming pool - bring it home and fill it for € 21. Is that all, sure let's power hose the driveway while we're at it - another few euro.

Where's the incentive to conserve, sounds like a bargain to me - we're paying for it now - let's get value.

Do you buy plastic bags every time you do the shopping? Sure at 22 cents per bag, it's only another €2 on the weeks shopping.

Pay as you go conversation measures actually work as public policy. Vartry may still be quite high, but what will it look like in another few months?

Rainfall has been well below average since February, the fear is there may not be significant rainfall for months to come. The water we have now might have to last us a long time.

The water infrastructure in Ireland is simply not fit for purpose. Improvements must be made, but must also be paid for. Yes, we generally have more than enough sources to allow us to use water liberally, but will require massive capital projects to pump water hundreds of kilometres, and build more resevoirs. If we can temper our requirement through metering, it reduces the size of the capital investment needed.

K.Flyer · 09-07-2018 12:19pm

wexie wrote: »

So is sewage already metered on commercial premises?

Not metered directly per se.
Its based on metered water consumption. In other words, if you use a cubic meter of water it is presumed that + / - of that is going back down the drains, hence water in / water out charge.

wexie · 09-07-2018 12:22pm

K.Flyer wrote: »

Not metered directly per se.
Its based on metered water consumption. In other words, if you use a cubic meter of water it is presumed that + / - of that is going back down the drains, hence water in / water out charge.

That's what I figured.

So my point of there being no way to charge for waste water that has been harvested still stands?

beveragelady · 09-07-2018 12:24pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you feel hard done by that you dont get to drive on every stretch of road in Ireland considering its *your* tax pays for all the roads?

How about that you dont get to spend time in hospital everyday or that you don't get to use the light from every streetlight in Ireland every night?

I don't understand why people think water is magically different from all these other things?

If you want to be part of a functioning society then you dont get to pick and choose what your contributions get used for, all you can do is influence those that are elected.

I pay road tax, I use the roads. Why would I need to use ALL the roads to feel I'm getting my money's worth?

I don't understand why you think water is "magically different" from electricity, or toothpaste, or custard, in that you pay for what you consume.

The streetlight thing is different. It's true, I pay for streetlights despite living just over 7km from one. I pay for streetsweeping too, and numerous other things that are part of urban living. These can't be measured though, so there's no way to tell how much any individual benefits, and water can. Just like electricity and toothpaste and custard.

nthclare · 09-07-2018 1:08pm

Somefink tells me we've a few Irish water staff in the mix with this topic, or else there's a few sock puppets....

Hitman3000 · 09-07-2018 1:10pm

beveragelady wrote:

I pay road tax, I use the roads. Why would I need to use ALL the roads to feel I'm getting my money's worth?

No such thing as road tax.

beveragelady · 09-07-2018 1:23pm

nthclare wrote: »

Somefink tells me we've a few Irish water staff in the mix with this topic, or else there's a few sock puppets....

Because the facts and the logical arguments don't agree with your point of view?

Hitman3000 wrote: »

No such thing as road tax.

Did you not know what I meant? I'll explain. I meant motor tax, often called "road tax" by a generation older than I am. It's like calling the radio "the wireless" or a calculator a "ready reckoner." I'm sorry if I confused you, I hope it's cleared up now.

GreeBo · 09-07-2018 1:25pm

beveragelady wrote: »

I pay road tax, I use the roads. Why would I need to use ALL the roads to feel I'm getting my money's worth?

I don't understand why you think water is "magically different" from electricity, or toothpaste, or custard, in that you pay for what you consume.

You just answered your own question. You dont pay for what you consume when it comes to roads and yet you are fine with it, why do you have an issue paying a different amenity (i.e. water)

beveragelady wrote: »

The streetlight thing is different. It's true, I pay for streetlights despite living just over 7km from one. I pay for streetsweeping too, and numerous other things that are part of urban living. These can't be measured though, so there's no way to tell how much any individual benefits, and water can. Just like electricity and toothpaste and custard.

Not quite sure, but I get the feeling that you (incorrectly) think I am against water charges...

GreeBo · 09-07-2018 1:27pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

completely separate things.
I use the roads directly and indirectly. I am getting what I am paying for.

I don't use the public water . I have no way to. So I pay and receive nothing.

But you aren't using them all directly & indirectly, Im sure there are far more roads that you have never used than those that you have.

I could just as easily argue that you are using the water indirectly, even if you have your own well.

Hitman3000 · 09-07-2018 1:33pm

beveragelady wrote:

Did you not know what I meant? I'll explain. I meant motor tax, often called "road tax" by a generation older than I am. It's like calling the radio "the wireless" or a calculator a "ready reckoner." I'm sorry if I confused you, I hope it's cleared up now.

Not at all confused thanks , surely you must be upset that cyclists don't pay 'road tax'? Like they use the roads for free.

sbsquarepants · 09-07-2018 1:35pm

ectoraige wrote: »

Rainfall has been well below average since February, the fear is there may not be significant rainfall for months to come. The water we have now might have to last us a long time.

.

You don't remember the flood warnings only 5 or 6 weeks ago? Storm Emma and the beast form the East was what 4 or 5 months ago? Remember all that stuff on the telly, hoping it would thaw slowly so we wouldn't all drown under the vast quantity of melt water!

I don't know what the actual figures are for the year - but I'd hazard a guess they aren't too much down on average. It's been a few weeks of nice weather. The rain will be back soon enough. It's hardly the Sahara now is it!

beveragelady · 09-07-2018 1:48pm

GreeBo wrote: »

But you aren't using them all directly & indirectly, Im sure there are far more roads that you have never used than those that you have.

I could just as easily argue that you are using the water indirectly, even if you have your own well.

But I can use all the road I want! It's not like I'm paying for other people to access a service that I can't access myself...

The well analogy is nonsense. I pay for the well. My tax contributions don't go towards my water supply, they go towards other people's. I pay for my water supply on top of paying for other people's. They don't contribute towards mine at all. There is no way you can pretend that is fair.

Drought....Hosepipe Ban.... next they'll be calling for Water meters

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