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Truth about Porn

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Comments

  • #2
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Thread moved from tLL to Humanities.


  • #3
    dazza_480
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27 ✭dazza_480


    no their has always been men that are violent towards women even before porn was invented, porn is a reflection on the FANTASIES of men. people who make porn do so because of supply and demand. she also says a lot of comments that she doesn't back up which makes me suspicious. she only deals with violent porn,porn is much more diverse than that and what is degrading to some women might not be for other women. women also watch porn the porn that they watch is usually gay porn is that degrading to women if you can't handle it Don't watch it. but the main reason she brings this up is because people need fear and porn makes a good scapegoat to vent her frustration at men


  • #4
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Self-aggrandising misandrist who believes that all women in porn are exploited and all men who watch porn are depraved sociopathic potential rapists.

    That much is clear from the article.
    She says the blueprint for her aims is the eradication of slavery in the US
    "I have found that the earlier men use porn," says Dines, "the more likely they are to have trouble developing close, intimate relationships with real women. Some of these men prefer porn to sex with an actual human being. They are bewildered, even angry, when real women don't want or enjoy porn sex."
    Proof? Citations? Peer-reviewed studies? Or perhaps this is just a, "I interviewed women who have difficulty creating stable relationships and they all said that their partners used porn". She has an anti-porn agenda, so all she needs to do is look at some negative topics such as rape and child abuse, show that the offenders looked at porn and bingo-bango, 2+2 = 50.
    "To think that so many men hate women to the degree that they can get aroused by such vile images is quite profound," says Dines. "Pornography is the perfect propaganda piece for patriarchy. In nothing else is their hatred of us quite as clear."
    *cough*
    Yes, men hate women. Angry, bitter, misandrist woman who has the gall to consider her opinions to be valid scientific or sociological research.

    She has some valid points -

    The much freer availability of porn has somewhat created a demand for acts which would have been relatively unknown 20 years ago, or at the very least would have been only found in the hardest of hardcore collections. This doesn't signal any increase in violent thoughts, it simply shows that people are more comfortable with sexuality and exploring sexual possibilities.
    Sexual freedom allows one to be more comfortable considering sexual acts beyond the standard meat and two veg. After all, sex requires two consenting adults, so for every male who wishes to ejaculate on his partner's face, there's a willing female.

    She cited a questionnaire where some women claimed that a male date ejaculated on them without asking, and that's proof that porn has objectified women. No, that's confirmation that there are some complete bastards out there and both men and women should be more assertive and pickier about who they hop into bed with, and when.

    I have no doubt that the internet and the free availability of porn has changed the face of sexual relationships. But it has yet to be seen whether it's done so in a good way or bad way. Anything which makes sexually-repressed citizenships such as those in US, UK and here, more open to sexual thoughts and more open *about* their sexuality and sexual preferences, can only be a good thing IMO.

    Slightly OT, but I heard an interview on Newstalk a few weeks back in relation to sex education. A women was talking about how she had a book which was used for discussing sexuality and sex with children - 8-year-olds and the like. Some people complained that to do so was to take away children's innocence. But she made a good point that's stuck with me - talking about "taking away innocence" implies that there's something wrong with sex, that there's something to be guilty about. In fact after eating and sleeping, sex is one of the most natural and fantastic things in life. There's nothing shameful or guilty in it.
    Any societal shift which loosens up our taboos and allows us to discuss sex as freely as we would talk about work, should be welcomed IMO.


  • #5
    Dolbert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,154 ✭✭✭Dolbert


    Excellent article, for me sums up my problems with the pornography industry much more eloquently than I could. It is extremely uncool to say that you dislike porn or have a fundamental problem with it. God forbid, if you do you are obviously a prude who has hangups about sex :rolleyes:
    "The assumption that if you are a woman who hates pornography you are against sex shows how successful the industry is at collapsing porn into sex." Would the critics of the employment practices and products at McDonald's be accused of being anti-eating, she asks pointedly.

    When I was a teenager some of the lads thought it would be funny to put on a porn movie in a room full of unsuspecting girls. What disturbed me most was the undertone of violence and humiliation, that this 'wh*re' being f*cked as hard as possible and reduced to a collection of orifices was apparently what men were supposed to get off on.

    Some of my single female friends have been surprised by sexual expectations from guys they have been seeing, that can probably be attributed to the increasing exposure to porn. One girl told me that the first time she gave him oral, he had ejaculated into her face without warning her. When she got upset, he was surprised, as it's 'always done in porn'. How many (younger) men nowadays 'expect' anal, or nothing less than a total and complete wax downstairs, or think that a 'cumshot' is normal? Yes, men have always liked to look at titillating images, but I would say that the blurring of lines between porn and real-life expectations have really increased over the last 10 years or so.


  • #6
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    lazygal wrote: »
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dines-pornography

    Anyone think she is onto something?

    In a word.......no.

    Seems pretty much identical to the things Mary Whitehouse was saying 20 years ago. Most of my male freinds would have looked at internet pornography at some stage. Pretty much all of them have been in normal healthy relationships. Pornography is just fantasy. People are inteligent enough to seperate it from real life in the same way that people that read fantasy novels about wizards and goblins can seperate that from the real world. The arguments she makes are the same tired ones that have been put forward since the early 60's. "Porn is degrading to women", "porn turns men into sexually perverse woman haters", "porn removes intimacy from sexual intercourse", "porn is eating our babies"..... They didn't hold up in the 60's, 70,s 80,s and 90,s and there is nothing to suggest they do now.


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  • #7
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,859 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    No. For a start I've a problem with this statement:
    "Pornography is the perfect propaganda piece for patriarchy. In nothing else is their hatred of us quite as clear."

    There probably is some porn out there that is based on hatred to women. But any porn I've seen, I've never thought, 'wow, that guy must really hate her.'
    "I am not saying that a man reads porn and goes out to rape," she says, "but what I do know is that porn gives permission to its consumers to treat women as they are treated in porn."

    That sounds like she's saying a guy watches porn and then forces a woman into a sexual act they saw. Otherwise, I understand it to mean that the guy would suggest trying something new. I wouldn't think this is a bad thing assuming both agree to it.:confused:

    And the interviewing of sexual offenders. What about the number of men who aren't sex offenders, which greatly outnumbers the men who are, why no interviews with them? Probably wouldn't help her campaign more than likely.

    She's an anti-porn campaigner so it's not really surprising what she has written.

    All porn isn't bad. Some problem should definitely campaigned against. But to dump the guy who makes a porno, with consenting adults in it, in with a child pornographer is daft. They're worlds apart.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #8
    topper75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    Dolorous wrote: »
    ....he had ejaculated into her face without warning her.
    ....'expect' anal
    ....nothing less than a total and complete wax downstairs...

    As a male, to be fair, I have wondered why these elements have become de rigeur now in those movies.

    Still though, in principle, for adults I think there is nothing wrong with watching others getting off to get yourself off. This woman is wrong to suggest otherwise.

    Any fella acting the idiot as above can be dropped. There isn't a shortage of normal men out there yet, is there? :)


  • #9
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    "Pornography is the perfect propaganda piece for patriarchy. In nothing else is their hatred of us quite as clear."
    It is at this point that you're better off to stop reading the article in question or frankly anything by Gail Dines. Why, because this is not a statement of the psychology of pornography - it is a statement of ideology. That's right, it's not that she has objectively found porn to be bad but that she found porn to be bad so as to prove a subjective ideological point.

    If you want to know if porn is bad, try to locate some peer reviewed non-partisan studies - hard to find but they exist. AFAIR, these tend to show that while porn is not the harmless bit of fun that some will claim, neither is it the first step on the road to serial killing and damnation eternal.


  • #10
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Dolorous wrote: »
    How many (younger) men nowadays 'expect' anal, or nothing less than a total and complete wax downstairs, or think that a 'cumshot' is normal?
    It's arguable how much of all that is down to porn.

    For example, anal sex is new in anglophone countries - it's been pretty common in much of continental Europe for a century now. In pre-Colombian America it was the standard, also for reasons of birth control.

    As to the complete wax downstairs, I suspect that's a fashion thing, although (again, especially outside of anglophone countries) women are increasingly demanding men are effectively waxed too. Not sure if that's down to porn or just an aversion to flossing. Could be both.

    Tattoos (especially 'tramp stamps') and piercings are other things one could accuse porn of introducing. Or not. Maybe it is just fashion.

    As to cumshots, I thought those were out of fashion now, both in and out of porn? I had thought the 'creampie' was all the rage now for the cool kids?

    As I said, it's arguable how much of this is down to porn. Or men. Especially the older you get, the more you find women watch it. Or that they like porn that you find is too nasty to watch.

    I just think that the whole porn debate is a lot more complex than some femnazi's agenda.


  • #11
    Dolbert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,154 ✭✭✭Dolbert


    topper75 wrote: »
    As a male, to be fair, I have wondered why these elements have become de rigeur now in those movies.

    Still though, in principle, for adults I think there is nothing wrong with watching others getting off to get yourself off. This woman is wrong to suggest otherwise.

    Any fella acting the idiot as above can be dropped. There isn't a shortage of normal men out there yet, is there? :)

    Oh I totally agree, I know not all guys would make the above assumptions! I was just surprised to hear that anyone would have expectations in real life based on what is essentially a fantasy! They were probably just unlucky with the guys tbh...
    koth wrote: »
    But any porn I've seen, I've never thought, 'wow, that guy must really hate her.'

    It's that precise vibe that disturbed me tbh. Where she is called a 'f*cking b*tch/ slut', the sex is almost like an act of violence against this 'whore', and the woman/ collection of holes is pretty much reduced to a sperm receptacle.

    It's disturbing to me on the same level that the whole 'madonne/ whore' complex prevalent in Ireland is disturbing to me, but that's for another thread :)


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  • #12
    Blisterman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,459 ✭✭✭Blisterman


    Dolorous wrote: »
    It's that precise vibe that disturbed me tbh. Where she is called a 'f*cking b*tch/ slut', the sex is almost like an act of violence against this 'whore', and the woman/ collection of holes is pretty much reduced to a sperm receptacle.

    There's no real right or wrong way to act in the bedroom (as long as it's consensual, of course.) Some people like to be dominated, some like to be the dominator. Even some of the strongest, most powerful, take no bull**** people can find nothing more of a turn on than being completely degraded, male and female by the way. I'm pretty sure these fantasies existed well before porn came along.

    At the end of the day, most porn is just fiction, and like most fiction, it's designed to stir up emotions, in this case sexuality. You may not agree with what the characters do, or how they behave. Its all subjective, and there must be some people who get something out of it.


  • #13
    Odin Old Stagecoach
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Odin Old Stagecoach


    whatever gets you through the night so long as it does not involve amnimals or children and is between consenting adults i am fine with it . Porn has been around for as long as their has been humans and will be no matter if you like it or not , and futhermore if you dont like it dont watch it .


  • #14
    Dolbert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,154 ✭✭✭Dolbert


    Those are both good points and I agree that my personal distaste for sexual degradation/ humilation is a factor here. I guess the fact that it's considered 'the norm' bothers me. Although I do have a male friend who says he only likes girl-on-girl as it's not as rough or formulaic, and the degradation aspect of most straight porn actively turns him off!

    However, and here's another can o'worms... :) Can anyone who works as a porn actor/ actress really be emotionally healthy? For some reason, I can't help but think that something, somewhere has to have gone horribly wrong there. When I bring this topic up, cries of 'empowerment' abound, yet I can't help but think a part of that person has died inside. Do well adjusted people really end up in the porn/ sex industry?
    if you dont like it dont watch it

    I don't and don't. That doesn't mean I can't have issues with it though! Sometimes it's good to challenge our perceptions, I know I am considering aspects I hadn't before this thread.


  • #15
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Dolorous wrote: »
    Do well adjusted people really end up in the porn/ sex industry?
    Why couldn't they?

    While many people see sex as something intimate and sacred, this is mainly a societal construct more than anything, and there's no reason why someone who considers porn as an occupation or a means to an end is emotionally stunted or unhealthy.

    There is a perception that someone who would be involved in this is somehow soulless or emotionally cold, but sex doesn't have to be linked to emotions of love and intimacy. For many (if not most) porn actors, it's a fun activity which they enjoy and see it as a bonus to be paid for it - exactly as if they were getting paid to play football or whatever.


  • #16
    Ciaran500
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    Dolorous wrote: »
    It's that precise vibe that disturbed me tbh. Where she is called a 'f*cking b*tch/ slut', the sex is almost like an act of violence against this 'whore', and the woman/ collection of holes is pretty much reduced to a sperm receptacle.

    It's disturbing to me on the same level that the whole 'madonne/ whore' complex prevalent in Ireland is disturbing to me, but that's for another thread :)
    Thats a type of porn, not all porn. If you had been only shown female domination porn would you be in here complaining about the abuse men get in the porn industry?


  • #17
    Dolbert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,154 ✭✭✭Dolbert


    Ciaran500 wrote: »
    Thats a type of porn, not all porn. If you had been only shown female domination porn would you be in here complaining about the abuse men get in the porn industry?

    If that was all I had seen and thought it a fair representation? Absolutely, why wouldn't I? I'd find it disturbing. I know that cultural norms can change, and because so many are resentful of church oppression for years, to suggest that porn may be a bad thing goes against the grain for many.

    A few years ago, durind the so-called 'Celtic Tiger' era, there seemed to be many women who seemed to confuse Sex & The City with reality (some are still around unfortunately). I think it's fair to say that relations between the sexes probably suffered as a result of certain women acting like spoilt, entitled b*tches. Of course many knew the difference between fantasy and reality, but a frightening number did not.

    Complaining? Not really, just throwing an alternative viewpoint out there. I just think the idea of porn being completey consequence free from a cultural point of view might be a little misguided.


  • #18
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Dolorous wrote: »
    are resentful of church oppression for years..... the so-called 'Celtic Tiger' era............. many women who seemed to confuse Sex & The City with reality ............ suffered as a result of certain women acting like spoilt, entitled b*tches.........Complaining? Not really, just throwing an alternative viewpoint out there.,,,,,,, the idea of porn being completey consequence free from a cultural point of view might be a little misguided.

    ehhh........You really don't think you don't have any preconceived ideas? None at all? Really?............... :confused:


  • #19
    Kooli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    Dolorous wrote: »
    If that was all I had seen and thought it a fair representation? Absolutely, why wouldn't I? I'd find it disturbing. I know that cultural norms can change, and because so many are resentful of church oppression for years, to suggest that porn may be a bad thing goes against the grain for many.

    A few years ago, durind the so-called 'Celtic Tiger' era, there seemed to be many women who seemed to confuse Sex & The City with reality (some are still around unfortunately). I think it's fair to say that relations between the sexes probably suffered as a result of certain women acting like spoilt, entitled b*tches. Of course many knew the difference between fantasy and reality, but a frightening number did not.

    Complaining? Not really, just throwing an alternative viewpoint out there. I just think the idea of porn being completey consequence free from a cultural point of view might be a little misguided.

    Wow Dolorous I can't believe you're the only one on here who finds porn as uncomfortable as I do! Thought I'd come and lend my support. I totally agree with everything you say, I definitely think there is an undercurrent of degradation in mainstream porn.

    Some guys here are saying it has 'opened up sexuality' and encouraged people to try new things. Others have said it is as fictional as wizards and goblins and shouldn't be seen as real. To me those two viewpoints are mutually exclusive. Either it relates to our own sexual lives, or it doesn't - you can't have it both ways.

    And for women out there who 'consensually' allow someone to ejaculate on their face, I would question how many of them really like it, and how many are doing it because it's expected of them or because they don't know how to say what they want or don't want.
    (and please don't ask me for a peer reviewed study to back that up, it's just an opinion).

    I also agree Dolorous, that when I hear the 'empowerment' argument for women involved in porn, a little bit inside of me dies!


  • #20
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Kooli wrote: »
    And for women out there who 'consensually' allow someone to ejaculate on their face, I would question how many of them really like it, and how many are doing it because it's expected of them or because they don't know how to say what they want or don't want.
    The idea that some people get their jollies from being degraded is not a new one, so I really don't understand why this should surprise you. The rape fantasy is the single best example of this. The number of sex scandals involving ministers being whipped or turned into sex slaves, in the 1980's Thatcher government are legendary at this stage. Again, much of this predates pornography, so it's pretty questionable if pornography is to 'blame'.

    Now, this sort of thing does absolutely nothing for me personally, but I do recognize that it does it for others. I would not question how many of them really like it, because the World really is full of people with bizarre sexual fetishes and hang-ups. I find when someone does come out with such questions, it's generally because of ego-centrism - because they're not into it, they don't see why anyone else would.


  • #21
    Anaya Tight Springtime
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Anaya Tight Springtime


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    in the 1980's Thatcher government . ... predates pornography

    Ah, what...?


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  • #22
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Ah, what...?
    Nicely quoted out of context:
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Again, much of this predates pornography, so it's pretty questionable if pornography is to 'blame'.
    Not all. I discussed more than the 1980's.

    Pedantry aside: It is difficult to say what the influence of pornography has been on such practices (as the recorded practice of them is in itself pornography), but I think it safe to say that S&M type sexual behavior and rape fantasies existed before the wide availability of pornography.


  • #23
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Kooli wrote: »
    Wow Dolorous I can't believe you're the only one on here who finds porn as uncomfortable as I do! Thought I'd come and lend my support. I totally agree with everything you say, I definitely think there is an undercurrent of degradation in mainstream porn.

    Some guys here are saying it has 'opened up sexuality' and encouraged people to try new things. Others have said it is as fictional as wizards and goblins and shouldn't be seen as real. To me those two viewpoints are mutually exclusive. Either it relates to our own sexual lives, or it doesn't - you can't have it both ways.

    And for women out there who 'consensually' allow someone to ejaculate on their face, I would question how many of them really like it, and how many are doing it because it's expected of them or because they don't know how to say what they want or don't want.
    (and please don't ask me for a peer reviewed study to back that up, it's just an opinion).

    I also agree Dolorous, that when I hear the 'empowerment' argument for women involved in porn, a little bit inside of me dies!

    It's been a long time since I read Lacan but if I remember correctly he posits that in sexuality for a woman to be aroused she needs to think of the man as a hero and for a man to be aroused he needs to think of her as a whore. So we have the inversion of worship and degradation in even the most neutral non fetishistic interactions.

    Media, whether porn or stupid shows like S and the city are symptomatic of this and satisfy this so they can make lots and lots of money.

    Porn has been around since the dawn of time but it is so available now that is it becoming more and more mainstream, and like other media and representations it sets up expectations if we let it. Life imitates art after all. So the influence of porn on male female interactions is going to become a bigger and bigger fish to negotiate, like it or not.

    Its all part of the fun of life. Humans eh?


  • #24
    Anaya Tight Springtime
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Anaya Tight Springtime


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Nicely quoted out of context:

    That's because I understand what you said to mean "the 1980s predates pron"

    s&m in general yeah I guess, though porn has a long long history


  • #25
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    bluewolf wrote: »
    That's because I understand what you said to mean "the 1980s predates pron"
    Fair enough - I wasn't clear.
    s&m in general yeah I guess, though porn has a long long history
    Yeah, but is it porn that encourages such practices or the reverse? Or is it a bit of both?

    Nonetheless, my main point was that the whole 'degrading' criticism seemed quite silly to me as it seems to have been something on the sexual menu for a very long time and hardly a product of the last century of pornography.

    Most of the arguments being used are ego-centric, from what I can make out. Kooli and Dolorous are not into [insert sexual practice], ergo the only reason anyone else could be is due to peer pressure or other form of brain washing. Not terribly objective as it presumes everyone having the same tastes as them.

    I just think the truth is more complex than the dreadful misandry that was presented in the OP's linked article.


  • #26
    fungun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭fungun


    i think porn itself is grand.

    i think it being available through technology for young males of 12-15 who may only have porn as an example of what to expect from sex can create a problem in their minds in terms of what an average sex life is and how an average woman behaves in bed. This can in turn create a problem for women in terms of what the expectations men have of them are.


  • #27
    Anaya Tight Springtime
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Anaya Tight Springtime


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Most of the arguments being used are ego-centric, from what I can make out. Kooli and Dolorous are not into [insert sexual practice], ergo the only reason anyone else could be is due to peer pressure or other form of brain washing. Not terribly objective as it presumes everyone having the same tastes as them.

    I agree. Some women do like the face thing or many other things indeed, tastes vary.

    And some of the arguments seem to come across as "some women were sexually assaulted in unusual ways therefore porn is bad". Eh, well, no.


  • #28
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Kooli wrote: »
    And for women out there who 'consensually' allow someone to ejaculate on their face, I would question how many of them really like it, and how many are doing it because it's expected of them or because they don't know how to say what they want or don't want.

    Er I would imagine they are doing it because they get paid to do it. If they don't like it they don't like it but may well do it for the money. How many people cleaning your hotel room's toilet like the job they are doing?


  • #29
    Kooli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Er I would imagine they are doing it because they get paid to do it. If they don't like it they don't like it but may well do it for the money. How many people cleaning your hotel room's toilet like the job they are doing?

    No I meant people in real life who agree to do this when their partner asks them to because he has seen it in a porn movie.


  • #30
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Kooli wrote: »
    No I meant people in real life who agree to do this when their partner asks them to because he has seen it in a porn movie.
    I don't think there's anything wrong asking your other half to try something because you saw it in a porno or wherever. Expecting it is another matter.


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  • #31
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    How many men (or women) with these degradation fantasies have ever honestly explored in themselves why they find these things tantalizing? While they may say "oh it's just fantasy, I totally believe women (or men) are equal outside of the bedroom/fantasy" etc etc.. how much of that is just compartmentalizing or convincing themselves they feel like that? Most, as far as I know, just accept they find this appealing without ever really analyzing why.

    I'm not saying porn is bad, I don't care what someone's into, I'm just throwing something out there. Hell, I fall into that degradation fantasy trap just as much as the next person.. but I can still muse about it.


  • #32
    Blisterman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,459 ✭✭✭Blisterman


    Well from personal experience, many of the girls who like degredation, being dominated, name calling etc in the bedroom are the kinds of girls who won't accept any kind of disrespect in any other context. Other, quiet unassuming girls can enjoy being dominant.

    So fantasies don't necessarily translate into real life. In fact, I'd even consider it to be somewhat of a holiday, a chance to try something different,be someone different.


  • #33
    Danima
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭Danima


    How the article can equate ejaculating on a partner's face with sexual violence is beyond me.

    Although correlation is not causation, real sexual violence such as rape has decreased during the last two decades, while porn consumption has increased (due to the internet).


  • #34
    jurgenscarl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 184 ✭✭jurgenscarl


    Although correlation is not causation, real sexual violence such as rape has decreased during the last two decades, while porn consumption has increased (due to the internet).

    Is not sexual violence committed to the women in the porn shoot or porn movie? Don't you accept that real violence is being committed agaisnt these women? A woman who is exploited and made to degrade herself by being triple penetrated by multiple men before being drenched in ejaculation while untold millions of masturbating men watch her on the internet is a victim of hatred and violence.
    Female porn stars endure hours and hours of scenes when they must have sex with men with over large penises.
    STD infection and abuse of painkillers are at epidemic levels among performers.
    The psychological damage inflicted on these women is extraordinary.
    Porn hurts women.
    It is a vile evil industry.


  • #35
    Byron85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Byron85


    jurgenscarl wrote: »
    Is not sexual violence committed to the women in the porn shoot or porn movie? Don't you accept that real violence is being committed agaisnt these women? A woman who is exploited and made to degrade herself by being triple penetrated by multiple men before being drenched in ejaculation while untold millions of masturbating men watch her on the internet is a victim of hatred and violence.
    Female porn stars endure hours and hours of scenes when they must have sex with men with over large penises.
    STD infection and abuse of painkillers are at epidemic levels among performers.
    The psychological damage inflicted on these women is extraordinary.
    Porn hurts women.
    It is a vile evil industry.

    They choose to join the industry. They are far from exploited considering the money they get paid for the profession they chose to join.
    Ron Jeremy has commented on the pay scale of women and men of the sex film industry: "The average guy gets $300 to $400 a scene, or $100 to $200 if he's new. A woman makes $100,000 to $250,000 at the end of the year.[9] "Girls can easily make 100K-250K per year, plus stuff on the side like strip shows and appearances. The average guy makes $40,000 a year."[10]

    If you don't like it, then don't watch it.


  • #36
    Danima
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭Danima


    jurgenscarl wrote: »
    Is not sexual violence committed to the women in the porn shoot or porn movie? Don't you accept that real violence is being committed agaisnt these women? A woman who is exploited and made to degrade herself by being triple penetrated by multiple men before being drenched in ejaculation

    As long as it's voluntary, I dont consider this as sexual violence regardless of whether it's done together with a few male mates of hers, in a swingers club or with actors.

    I'm not sure why the focus is on the women anyways, aren't the poor men who are forced to ejaculate all over a woman equally deserving of rescue?


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  • #37
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    jurgenscarl wrote: »
    Is not sexual violence committed to the women in the porn shoot or porn movie? Don't you accept that real violence is being committed agaisnt these women? A woman who is exploited and made to degrade herself by being triple penetrated by multiple men before being drenched in ejaculation while untold millions of masturbating men watch her on the internet is a victim of hatred and violence.

    Porn actress: I want to be in a porn movie
    Porn director: Ok, we will pay you X dollars per hour
    Porn actress: Great. What will you be doing in this shoot?
    Porn director: Well we do pretty hardcore stuff, including [lists sexual acts]
    Porn actress: Ok I'm cool with that / No, that sounds too rough I don't want to do that.

    Explain to me where the exploration takes place?

    I'm all for regulation of the porn industry, I'm all for enforcement of health and safety such as mandatory condom use and limits on acts that are particularly risky etc. I'm all for heavy education of health risks (porn stars seem particularly naive about STD dangers)

    But at the end of the day we are talking about consenting adults here. I'm sure naive stupid girls (and guys) get involved in porn but that is true of all industries. When was the last time the stunt man industry was called vile and evil because some naive people get involved with it without fully appreciating the risks?
    jurgenscarl wrote: »
    I
    Female porn stars endure hours and hours of scenes when they must have sex with men with over large penises.
    Define "must have sex"?

    These women (and men) are doing a job they are paid for. If they don't want to do it they don't have to do it.


  • #38
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    T.W.H Byron wrote: »
    They choose to join the industry. They are far from exploited considering the money they get paid for the profession they chose to join.
    Let's not also forget that standards are much higher for men in porn. Aside from a few famous faces, there's a lot of pressure on men to maintain a very fit and trim body, to "perform" on cue and compete with a lot of other men who are younger, fitter and better than they are.

    Women, by contrast can get away with being all shapes and sizes (granted, being slimmer will probably get you the most money), have a lot less competition and have physiological upper hand when it comes to "performing".

    It's one of the few industries where women are by far the ones in the position of control. If all of the male porn actors were to strike for better conditions, there would be thousands of young men ready to step in and take their place. In fact, you technically don't even need men to keep the porn industry afloat. By contrast if the women were to strike, the industry would be on its knees (no pun intended).


  • #39
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    jurgenscarl wrote: »
    A woman who is exploited and made to degrade herself by being triple penetrated by multiple men before being drenched in ejaculation while untold millions of masturbating men watch her on the internet is a victim of hatred and violence.
    While I have no doubt that exploitation occurs in the porn (or adult entertainment) industry, just as in anywhere else, you seem to be making the same assumptive mistake as Kooli and Dolorous earlier, which is because you would not see yourself doing such a thing, ergo no one else would either without being forced.

    Psychologically speaking, I find this fascinating.
    seamus wrote: »
    By contrast if the women were to strike, the industry would be on its knees (no pun intended).
    Admit it, your entire post was transparent excuse to come out with that pun :p


  • #40
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    seamus wrote: »
    Let's not also forget that standards are much higher for men in porn. Aside from a few famous faces, there's a lot of pressure on men to maintain a very fit and trim body, to "perform" on cue and compete with a lot of other men who are younger, fitter and better than they are.

    Women, by contrast can get away with being all shapes and sizes (granted, being slimmer will probably get you the most money), have a lot less competition and have physiological upper hand when it comes to "performing".

    It's one of the few industries where women are by far the ones in the position of control. If all of the male porn actors were to strike for better conditions, there would be thousands of young men ready to step in and take their place. In fact, you technically don't even need men to keep the porn industry afloat. By contrast if the women were to strike, the industry would be on its knees (no pun intended).

    The women in porn are also much higher paid than the men, and there is much greater opportunity for the women to become rich. There are a large number of female porn stars who have capitalized on their image to produce an awful lot of money. I can't think of one male porn star who as famous as say Jenna Jameson.


  • #41
    AngryBadger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    The only remotely valid point to be taken from that piece is the increases access young (pre-teen) kids have to pornography these days, but even this is behind the times, any young male with 'net access has been able to find pornography for about the last 20 years. All of a sudden people can get XXX videos on their mobiles and this woman is up in arms?

    Unless you're watching some kind of "snuff" movie, the people in pornography are consenting adults being paid to do a job, if they don't like it they don't have to do it, but they're not more victimised by this than any other person who's paid to do a job.

    There is obviously an issue with pornography where it's being viewed by pre-teen kids, you're bound to have issues arising form them being exposed to something they're not equipped to assimilate properly. But the issue there is not the pornography itself but how these kids are able to access it so easily. And that's as much an issue of parenting as anything else.

    "Porn" has existed for centuries, it's not new, some people are into it, some aren't, like anything else you can't have some fascist nanny-state approach to it although that's the increasingly populist way people seem to want their lives run these days.

    Here's a question for the people bleating on about porn being degrading to women;

    Assuming that these women have chosen to do this work for whatever reason, do you not think that you're actually taking power away from them by immediately labeling them as victims of some male propaganda? Surely they've made their own choice and are capable of dealing with that?


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  • #42
    Odin Old Stagecoach
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Odin Old Stagecoach


    AngryBadger wrote: »
    The only remotely valid point to be taken from that piece is the increases access young (pre-teen) kids have to pornography these days, but even this is behind the times, any young male with 'net access has been able to find pornography for about the last 20 years. All of a sudden people can get XXX videos on their mobiles and this woman is up in arms?

    Unless you're watching some kind of "snuff" movie, the people in pornography are consenting adults being paid to do a job, if they don't like it they don't have to do it, but they're not more victimised by this than any other person who's paid to do a job.

    There is obviously an issue with pornography where it's being viewed by pre-teen kids, you're bound to have issues arising form them being exposed to something they're not equipped to assimilate properly. But the issue there is not the pornography itself but how these kids are able to access it so easily. And that's as much an issue of parenting as anything else.

    "Porn" has existed for centuries, it's not new, some people are into it, some aren't, like anything else you can't have some fascist nanny-state approach to it although that's the increasingly populist way people seem to want their lives run these days.

    Here's a question for the people bleating on about porn being degrading to women;

    Assuming that these women have chosen to do this work for whatever reason, do you not think that you're actually taking power away from them by immediately labeling them as victims of some male propaganda? Surely they've made their own choice and are capable of dealing with that?
    ita well made point


  • #43
    jurgenscarl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 184 ✭✭jurgenscarl


    The only women who would 'agree' to do porn are women in desperate poverty. Women who who have suffered sexual abuse in their childhood. Women who are drug addicted and need the money. Women who have been pressured into it by violent boyfriends partners and husbands who work in the industry and in shadowy organised crime syndicates.
    The level of suicide and early deaths from drug use among women in the industry is epidemic.
    Porn is corroding the morality of millions of men who use it and expect their wives, girlfriends and one-night stands to act out violent degrading acts they saw in the porn movies.
    It has cheapened sex and put crude expectations on women to be automaton sex machine purely for the benefit of a male dominated patriarchial capitalist system.
    It is vile, hideous and disgusting.
    Anyone makes apologies for this gross abuse of women is utterly deluded.
    The money that female pornstars make from the porn industry is scant compensation for sexual humiliation and acts that border on gang rape.
    The male equivalent is the boxing industry which damages men physically and psychologically.


  • #44
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    That's quite a litany of sweeping accusations. Care to back any of those up or should we all just accept them as an act of faith from you?


  • #45
    Odin Old Stagecoach
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Odin Old Stagecoach


    jurgenscarl wrote: »
    The only women who would 'agree' to do porn are women in desperate poverty. Women who who have suffered sexual abuse in their childhood. Women who are drug addicted and need the money. Women who have been pressured into it by violent boyfriends partners and husbands who work in the industry and in shadowy organised crime syndicates.
    The level of suicide and early deaths from drug use among women in the industry is epidemic.
    It has cheapened sex and put crude expectations on women to be automaton sex machine purely for the benefit of a male dominated patriarchial capitalist system.

    yeah love to know where you get your facts from . not all porn is directed by men their are many female directors who are now makin good money directing and normally they were previously porn stars , dont think they were so damaged to continue . all entertainment industry has its share of drug use and porn is no different .


  • #46
    AngryBadger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭AngryBadger


    jurgenscarl wrote: »
    The only women who would 'agree' to do porn are women in desperate poverty. Women who who have suffered sexual abuse in their childhood. Women who are drug addicted and need the money. Women who have been pressured into it by violent boyfriends partners and husbands who work in the industry and in shadowy organised crime syndicates.
    The level of suicide and early deaths from drug use among women in the industry is epidemic.
    Porn is corroding the morality of millions of men who use it and expect their wives, girlfriends and one-night stands to act out violent degrading acts they saw in the porn movies.
    It has cheapened sex and put crude expectations on women to be automaton sex machine purely for the benefit of a male dominated patriarchial capitalist system.
    It is vile, hideous and disgusting.
    Anyone makes apologies for this gross abuse of women is utterly deluded.
    The money that female pornstars make from the porn industry is scant compensation for sexual humiliation and acts that border on gang rape.
    The male equivalent is the boxing industry which damages men physically and psychologically.

    I see and is this based on anything other than your personal views? Or is just just more expression of the limited dichotomy that typifies most of your posts?

    No doubt there are women to whom some/all of the above apply, but how can you fail to see that taking responsibility for their own quality of life away form them only serves to undermine them?

    Also, I love how your "arguments" tend to ignore the blindingly obvious, such as the fact that there are many women who have built fortunes out of this industry which you fail to even acknowledge.

    I'm not endorsing pornography, I'm simply pointing out the utter fallacies your arguments are built upon, and focusing the argument on the real problems with pornography (namely exposure to young people who are not yet mature/experienced enough to view it in its proper context), and the fact that it's used by many people (like you), so support some kind of moral fascism which ultimately does far more harm than any amount of pornography ever could.


  • #47
    Byron85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Byron85


    jurgenscarl wrote: »
    The only women who would 'agree' to do porn are women in desperate poverty. Women who who have suffered sexual abuse in their childhood. Women who are drug addicted and need the money. Women who have been pressured into it by violent boyfriends partners and husbands who work in the industry and in shadowy organised crime syndicates.
    The level of suicide and early deaths from drug use among women in the industry is epidemic.
    Porn is corroding the morality of millions of men who use it and expect their wives, girlfriends and one-night stands to act out violent degrading acts they saw in the porn movies.
    It has cheapened sex and put crude expectations on women to be automaton sex machine purely for the benefit of a male dominated patriarchial capitalist system.
    It is vile, hideous and disgusting.
    Anyone makes apologies for this gross abuse of women is utterly deluded.
    The money that female pornstars make from the porn industry is scant compensation for sexual humiliation and acts that border on gang rape.
    The male equivalent is the boxing industry which damages men physically and psychologically.

    How do you explain the following two female porn stars?

    Tera Patrick: While at Boise State, Patrick earned an AAS degree in nursing and a BS in Biology.


    Asia Carrera: She studied piano as a child, and performed at Carnegie Hall twice before the age of 15. By 16 she taught English at Tsuruga College in Japan.[6] When she was 17, she ran away from home because she felt her parents put too much pressure on her to succeed academically. She won a full academic scholarship to Rutgers University and is a member of Mensa.


    I'm waiting on your explanation as to how two obviously extremely academically fulfilled and highly intelligent women are being abused by the industry?


  • #48
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    jurgenscarl wrote: »
    The only women who would 'agree' to do porn are women in desperate poverty.

    Why do so many people try to promote an image of women as some desperate sub-species under the guise of trying to help them?

    Oh the poor little women, we must do something to protect them. Should all women be locked up in big towers for their own safety?


  • #49
    Killer Wench
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,386 ✭✭✭Killer Wench


    jurgenscarl wrote: »
    The only women who would 'agree' to do porn are women in desperate poverty. Women who who have suffered sexual abuse in their childhood. Women who are drug addicted and need the money. Women who have been pressured into it by violent boyfriends partners and husbands who work in the industry and in shadowy organised crime syndicates.
    The level of suicide and early deaths from drug use among women in the industry is epidemic.
    Porn is corroding the morality of millions of men who use it and expect their wives, girlfriends and one-night stands to act out violent degrading acts they saw in the porn movies.
    It has cheapened sex and put crude expectations on women to be automaton sex machine purely for the benefit of a male dominated patriarchial capitalist system.
    It is vile, hideous and disgusting.
    Anyone makes apologies for this gross abuse of women is utterly deluded.
    The money that female pornstars make from the porn industry is scant compensation for sexual humiliation and acts that border on gang rape.
    The male equivalent is the boxing industry which damages men physically and psychologically.

    This is a sweeping statement that is incredibly inaccurate and incredibly unfair to womanhood.

    Women can have healthy backgrounds, healthy relationships, and a healthy self-view of themselves and still want to involve themselves in the adult industry.


  • #50
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Why do so many people try to promote an image of women as some desperate sub-species under the guise of trying to help them?

    Oh the poor little women, we must do something to protect them. Should all women be locked up in big towers for their own safety?

    Could'nt agree more. I think people like this are more insulting to women as they potray women as being helpless and unable to decide things for themselves.

    They always assume that every women involved in porn must have been tricked or taken advantage of which is ridiculous.


  • #51
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Playing Devils advocate somewhat, there are certainly 'damaged' people in the porn industry and exploitation certainly does exist, even where it is legal.

    Pornography is unlikely to be a career choice that many would aspire to, so it is probably not a surprise that many who do end up in it are those who will often not be able to hold down any other job (outside of menial ones). Then, the moral aspects behind pornography undoubtedly have a psychological toll of those involved, as they are involved in something they were brought up to believe was wrong and dirty. Add an environment that often is saturated with substance abuse and it is not surprising that many former or veteran porn stars end up basket cases and junkies.

    Of the latter, possibly the best example would be Paul F. Little (A.K.A. Max Hardcore) who's brand of extreme pornography allegedly involved unethical and even potentially dangerous practices.

    Of course, against all this, one has to consider that there are a lot of career choices that many would not aspire to out there. Yet some people, men and women, voluntarily choose to enter the porn industry - not against their will as allegedly with Linda Lovelace.

    As an aside, I would note that the exploitation of women seems to be the only thing of concern to some. The possibility that men may be exploited either for straight or gay pornography does not seem to register.

    Anyhow, it is a less than healthy environment with real health risks attached. So is coal mining. Or being a white South African farmer. Or, where it comes to substance abuse, being in any other part of the entertainment industry.

    As to exploitation; welcome to Capitalism. Every industry will have some abuse and in some cases it is endemic to the industry. Indeed, being a blue-chip, respected, brand won't mean that you won't exploit your staff.

    Would these psychologically damaged starlets be any less damaged without the porn industry? Maybe. Maybe not. But it appears that those who left damaged arrived into the industry with psychological baggage to begin with, so even if they had never entered it, it's a safe bet that they would not be well adjusted, middle-class career-women or homemakers.

    So, is it a good or bad industry? I've no idea, but from what I can make out it is no worse than many 'acceptable' industries, in that whatever accusations one may make of it you will find comparable problems in 'acceptable' occupations and the women are being exploited line is a little difficult to accept given that it seems to be based on sexist assumptions about female sexuality (that's why male porn actors are never 'exploited'). Nonetheless, I would not rule out that it is a 'bad' industry also because there has been a move to sanitize it in recent years which is often as biased as the need to damn it.

    But, even if it were a 'bad' one, subjective diatribes, such as jurgenscarl's are really not terribly helpful as they are so laughably naive as to convince people of the opposite of what they intend. Then again, people who come out with such diatribes are typically not really looking to convince anyone. In my experience they are simply expressing their divine right to have an option and get it off their chests.


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