Truth about Porn

Killer Wench

One more thing, if we wish to make a correlation between the porn industry and another profession, choosing the military would not be appropriate. I think it there would be more similiarity if you choose to compare the porn industry to professional athletes in America.

Why?

Both professions involve the personal sacrifice of one's physical body. Those who are within a certain age and fitness receive a greater value. There can be long term harm inflicted upon the individual that they may not forsee while engaged in the activity.

nozzferrahhtoo

Killer Wench wrote: »

personal sacrifice of one's physical body.

Those who are within a certain age and fitness receive a greater value.

There can be long term harm inflicted upon the individual that they may not forsee while engaged in the activity.

Sorry to butt in but out of curiosity, which of these things is NOT like military service, especially front line military service on the ground?

Killer Wench

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Sorry to butt in but out of curiosity, which of these things is NOT like military service, especially front line military service on the ground?

My dad was career military and although on the surface it looks the same, my main argument would be on how each party benefits after their career has ended. Many veterans have moved on from the military and find themselves in a position that was better than when they entered the military. In addition, I would argue that the military is a function sanctioned by the government on behalf of the people for our protection where as both the adult film industry and professional sports are done purely for entertainment and for the financial gain of individuals.

The Corinthian

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

A straw man argument? Really?

Yes. Discussing a porn actor's and battered wife's self worths are at best superficially related to each other, so basing an argument based upon this is a straw man.

You don’t see a similarity between a wife/girlfriend who rationalises her abusive partner’s behaviour, be it down to low self-worth, etc, and a porn star who, with a similar mindset, does the same regarding her situation?

I do as much as a waitress who has a similar mindset and remains in her job, or a man who wants to be his own boss but will never have the balls to take the plunge. As such your comparison is really meaningless as you can find it anywhere.

We all have to feed ourselves to live and some people end up in jobs that cater to those who haven’t got a lot of choices but can offer other services. I mean, what kind of person ends up being a prostitute for that matter? I’ve heard men rationalise that industry too. Desires before morals. Cognitive dissonance once again.

You've yet to demonstrate that it is that much worse, outside of social stigma, than many other industries. You need to do that before you accuse anyone of cognitive dissonance.

I’m not arguing that every porn star is a slave but it seems like all the justifications from people here, “They choose to do that”, “They can quit if they want” are just dismissive self-justifications because they themselves use some nasty types of porn to get off and it helps them feel better.

They can "they can quit if they want" - just like the rest of us. If you don't believe me, quit your job now.

The World is full of people in shìtty jobs. Many don't quit because they can't afford to or are too insecure about getting another job. I really don't see porn actors being any different.

Though I’m curious why you didn’t address the part about ‘gonzo’ porn and how young males hitting puberty will be affected by such stuff - seeing as you dissected every other part of my post.

Probably because it goes into a separate discussion on whether porn is good for society in general, rather than those working in it, and that would drag the discussion OT. Would you like to change the subject?

Of course, but such other forms of exploitation don’t involve being screwed some place very uncomfortable because the job ‘requires’ it.

Literally screwed no, but close. Many jobs involve very unpleasant and potentially hazardous activities - imagine working down a sewer or a war zone, for example?

And again, there are alternatives for consumers, so why don’t people take them? For example, fake fur has been on the market for quite a while yet some consumers want 'real' fur, which we all know what is involved there.

You're going off topic and making a comparison between two things that is open to question and even making a moral judgment on a second industry that is open question - it's presumptuous for you to think we share your views on the fur industry.

Ah come on now, you know there is. I just think it’s easier to point to every other bit of exploitation going on in the world so you don’t feel so bad. Children use those kind of arguments, “Yeah, but, he was throwing stones too mammy! It wasn’t just me!”

Actually, I am pointing out that your arguments to not set pornography apart from many other occupations, yet you claim that somehow they are. You've not demonstrated any exploitation, hazard or anything else that cannot be seen in other jobs.

Now, unless we should stop all these jobs, then you have to accept them all - unless you can give us something valid to differentiate porn from them.

What I find is that intelligent people are very, very good and defending all kinds of beliefs. Religious apologists/theologian scholars come to mind, but that's for another forum. :cool:

That's true, which is why you need to go back to first principles, or as close as you can, with any discussion.

a) What makes porn unacceptable that is not shared by acceptable jobs?

b) Is that thing from a) intrinsic to porn or external to it?

From what I can make out porn is a pretty unpleasant and even risky occupation. However, it is well paid and people enter it voluntarily - at least no less so than most other occupations. All that seems to differ is society's attitude towards it, and that is hardly the fault of porn - it would be like blaming homophobia on gays.

nozzferrahhtoo

The fact, unfortunate as it may be, is that there are many industries where there workers enter into careers that are inherently risky.

From Police work, to working in mines, to army work, even to some branches of science (such as my cousin who is involved in diagnosing and cataloguing new diseases in humans, work that puts her in direct risk of contracting said diseases).

Even high profile careers that we often want our children to aspire to, like the medical profession, comes with many risks and if anyone were not to acknowledge the risks these people put themselves into for our benefit would be an insult to the medical profession everywhere.

In fact if we were to rise up against industries solely because their workers are put at risk, I am not sure what industries would survive the application of our benign intentions and actions.

The worst thing however is that the same people who use the risks of porn as a weapon to beat it, are the same people who push the porn industry underground, either by making it illegal or taboo, and hence manoeuvre its workers into a position where their industry is not subject to the laws of safety in the workplace or the benefits of employee medical insurance or the avenues of complaint when a co-worker behaves in an out of order fashion… that the rest of us all take for granted.

These people quite literally work hard to maintain the environment in which their “arguments” work for them.

In short, the “risk” argument against pornography holds literally no sway with me.

Killer Wench

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Indeed. In fact many people, male and female, apparently even do it for the fun of it, for no money and no prizes in competitions like that you list above. In fact some people PAY for the privilege of being able to make porn for the world. A quick google search I performed last time I got involved in this debate revealed this website for example…

www.newbienudes.com

… where people post naked and sexual acts of themselves for the sheer hell of it, and actually sometimes pay for “member” accounts that make their pictures get viewed by more people than the non-paying members.

So these are people who just enjoy making porn, and are not even "greedy" like the ones you mention. And if some people just enjoy making it, is it a big step to think that there are some who enjoy making it and are happy to, or greedy enough to, want to get some money while they are at it?

No, it isn't such a big step to think that there are people who enjoy doing it and are not doing it for the money. Again, I think about sites like AFF and Xtube that feature regular people posting films of themselves and/or partners engaged in sexual activity. I don't believe people are concerned so much about what their neighbor or boss would do for catching them in a video because if that neighbor or employer were to act, then they would be acknowledging that they are watching.

nozzferrahhtoo

Killer Wench wrote: »

My dad was career military and although on the surface it looks the same, my main argument would be on how each party benefits after their career has ended.

I am glad to hear it and congratulations to him from me.

However:

1) Putting yourself in the line of fire for your country IS sacrifice of your physical body.
2) The army of course targets people of certain ages and fitness, especially for infantry rolls.
3) Some of the long term effects of the army, emotionally and/or physically can be horrific in ways no one can even begin to imagine sometimes and relatively speaking a career of sex in front of a camera is a hell of a lot safer.

Killer Wench

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The fact, unfortunate as it may be, is that there are many industries where there workers enter into careers that are inherently risky.

From Police work, to working in mines, to army work, even to some branches of science (such as my cousin who is involved in diagnosing and cataloguing new diseases in humans, work that puts her in direct risk of contracting said diseases).

Even high profile careers that we often want our children to aspire to, like the medical profession, comes with many risks and if anyone were not to acknowledge the risks these people put themselves into for our benefit would be an insult to the medical profession everywhere.

In fact if we were to rise up against industries solely because their workers are put at risk, I am not sure what industries would survive the application of our benign intentions and actions.

The worst thing however is that the same people who use the risks of porn as a weapon to beat it, are the same people who push the porn industry underground, either by making it illegal or taboo, and hence manoeuvre its workers into a position where their industry is not subject to the laws of safety in the workplace or the benefits of employee medical insurance or the avenues of complaint when a co-worker behaves in an out of order fashion… that the rest of us all take for granted.

These people quite literally work hard to maintain the environment in which their “arguments” work for them.

In short, the “risk” argument against pornography holds literally no sway with me.

I think that I actually agree with you. Is there really a greater risk in being a porn actor than there is in being a single male of female who has indiscriminate one night stands?

Killer Wench

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I am glad to hear it and congratulations to him from me.

However:

1) Putting yourself in the line of fire for your country IS sacrifice of your physical body.
2) The army of course targets people of certain ages and fitness, especially for infantry rolls.
3) Some of the long term effects of the army, emotionally and/or physically can be horrific in ways no one can even begin to imagine sometimes and relatively speaking a career of sex in front of a camera is a hell of a lot safer.

Again, another core difference - for me - is for whom the sacrifice is being made. Now, don't get me wrong; there are numerous soldiers, airmen, sailors, and Marines who enter the military because they wish to obtain access to job training and educational assistance, but their sacrifice is made on behalf of the people; the greater gain is to the people of the country and not a corporation. This line is why people respect our military personnel but do not have the same level of respect for contractors who are willing to do essentially the same type of things that soldiers/Marines do.

nozzferrahhtoo

Killer Wench wrote: »

but their sacrifice is made on behalf of the people; the greater gain is to the people of the country and not a corporation.

Of course of course, I certainly do not disagree with that. There are of course going to be SOME differences. No analogy is ever 100% perfect, ever.

However if we are merely talking about porn in terms of “risks” to the workers involved, which a lot of people on this thread are, then I think the analogy to the military is a very sound one on THAT level at least.

In fact compared to the military, the police force, and some areas of the medical profession… a job in pornography is relatively safe by comparison.

The Corinthian

Killer Wench wrote: »

Again, another core difference - for me - is for whom the sacrifice is being made.

Yes, but is this not really what the big difference is? A moral one? That all this talk of exploitation, abuse and health just boils down to our own abstract perceptions of right and wrong, and really has very little to do with the porn actors themselves?

Killer Wench

It amazes me that in 2010, the greatest risk for those in the porn industry is the risk of not being accepted or respected by their peers. Either some people approach the subject from a patronizing tone of - those poor people - or they are dealing with the perception that they have no physical value and are nothing more than promiscuous sex fiends who are out to corrupt the morally responsible.

Killer Wench

The Corinthian wrote: »

Yes, but is this not really what the big difference is? A moral one? That all this talk of exploitation, abuse and health just boils down to our own abstract perceptions of right and wrong, and really has very little to do with the porn actors themselves?

Ah... read below.

pablomakaveli

Killer Wench wrote: »

I think that I actually agree with you. Is there really a greater risk in being a porn actor than there is in being a single male of female who has indiscriminate one night stands?

Given that tests for STD's and STI's have to be regularly done by porn actors for mainstream porn it's probably nearly safer than a person who regularly has one night stands.

Byron85

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Given that tests for STD's and STI's have to be regularly done by porn actors for mainstream porn it's probably nearly safer than a person who regularly has one night stands.

As far as I know they get tested every 30 days. I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere.

The Corinthian

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Given that tests for STD's and STI's have to be regularly done by porn actors for mainstream porn it's probably nearly safer than a person who regularly has one night stands.

I think it is probbaly impossible to say without real data. One might argue that they are safer, but it depends on the demographics that porn actors belong to - if these include intravenous substance abusers or (sex with) homosexual/bisexual males, then the statistical risk goes up substantially. Additionally, one may have lots of one night stands, but always wear a condom, which is less common in the porn industry.

Either way, it's a risk - quantifying it is another matter.

Waking-Dreams

Nozzferrahttoo & The Corinthian,

I just want to be clear here - as I feel you're lumping me into the same category as those who despise all porn out of ideology - that I'm not referring to your mainstream run-of-the-mill porn (which I acknowledge IS filmed under better conditions and pay), I'm talking about the extreme 'gonzo' variety, which I believe isn't so healthy for young boys to grow up watching while they're just hitting puberty and yes, I do believe that many of the women who subject themselves to it aren't their by “choice”, or rather, as much choice as one exercises in becoming/remaining a prostitute. Other circumstances come into play, and these aren't usually the same circumstances that effect people who work at McDonalds.

The fact that there are SOME people in an industry that do not want to be in that industry is irrelevant when talking about the industry as a whole.

But I'm not writing off the industry as a whole, I'm just discussing one particular aspect of it, which seems to be the popular trend nowadays. The sad fact is that we'll never actually get enough sufficient data from all the girls who work in this area or those who attempted a career and were badly exploited or abused.

Many are probably too ashamed to go public and just want to forget the whole experience and move on with their lives. I mean, you can't look at the statistics for rape and think those are seriously accurate; lots of people never come forward! I just feel certain elements of the porn industry work the exact same way. Sure, lots of girls will go on record and state they love it, and I do believe them, but you can't argue that it's all well and good, since those poster girls have not been on every movie set and don't possess the first-hand experience or knowledge of what other girls have been put through.

That's all I wanted to point out in this thread.

There ARE other options for girls, both inside and outside the industry. Penetrative sex is not the only type they can do. There are some well paying websites out there who want nothing of the sort, and they are not even that hard to find. Without much effort at all I could find you a soft core website that pays well and is up there in the top 10000 most visited sites in the world… hence their ability to pay well.

I think you're forgetting that with the rise of amateur porn (You Porn, et al.) trying to get paid a decent sum to do porn just isn't what it used to be. The trend is towards more extreme forms and no condoms because, as one director put it, “condoms just kills the fantasy”. Did you think maybe there's massive competition for the 'better' variety of work? Your first inclination will be to say, “Well, they can leave” and you're correct, intellectually, but I would argue it's not always that straightforward. People do have issues, they make bad decisions, abuse drugs, etc. Not everyone yells at the drug addict to just quit. Sometimes they need 'help', other people have to intervene. But if we all went around thinking that drug addicts were happy doing what they did or were no worse than the kid at McDonalds what kind of society would we live in?

I'll concede that lots of other industries exploit people in very vulnerable positions who are down on their luck, or want to become rich and famous and desired, but you can't just conveniently bat away the moral bankruptcy of certain porn directors, heavy-handed male actors, and agents, simply because other industries employ people for cheap wages and long hours. Apples and oranges, no?

All the evidence we do have to go on is the testimony from a number of women who got out of the industry:

I didn’t want to feel the pain of penetration from an over average sized man, being told to freeze in a position until the cameraman was happy with his shots was very painful. I had peoples body fluids forced on my face or anywhere else the producer pleased and I had to accept it or else no pay. Sometimes you would get to a gig and the producer would change what the scene was supposed to be to something more intense and again if you didn’t like it, too bad, you did it or no pay. - Elizabeth Rollings

Guys punching you in the face. You have semen from many guys all over your face, in your eyes. You get ripped. Your insides can come out of you. It's never ending. - Jersey Jaxin

I did over 100 XXX hardcore movies where I was slapped, hit, choked and forced to do sex scenes I never agreed to. As I did more and more scenes I abused prescription pills which were given to me anytime I wanted by several doctors in the San Fernando Valley. I was given Vicodin, Xanax, Norcos, Prozac and Zoloft. - Michelle Avanti

I had bodily fluids all over my face that had to stay on my face for ten minutes. The abuse and degradation was rough. I sweated and was in deep pain. On top of the horrifying experience, my whole body ached, and I was irritable the whole day. The director didn't really care how I felt; he only wanted to finish the video. - Genevieve

They told me if had my AIDS test that I'd be safe. I arrived on the set with my test and did a hardcore scene with two men. Within that week I was very sick with a fever of 104 and blisters all over my mouth, throat and private area. I looked like a monster. The doctor told me I had the non-curable disease Genital Herpes. I wanted to die. - Roxy

I hung out with a lot of people in the adult industry, everybody from contract girls to gonzo actresses. Everybody has the same problems. Everybody is on drugs. It's an empty lifestyle trying to fill up a void. - Becca Brat

The truth is I let my lifestyle get the best of me. I hate life. I'm a mess. A disaster. I've attempted suicide many times. No one cares about a dead porn star or a stripper. - Neesa

My first scene was one of the worst experiences of my life. It was very scary. It was a very rough scene. My agent didn't let me know ahead of time... I did it and I was crying and they didn't stop. It was really violent. He was hitting me. It hurt. It scared me more than anything. They wouldn't stop. They just kept rolling. Drugs are huge. They're using Viagra. It's unnatural. The girls will be on Xanax and Vicodin. - Sierra Sinn

We should think about these issues right now, to change stuff around to make this a safer f**kin’ business. It isn’t a safe business, and I thought it was, and I would have not have done that scene with no condom with Darren James if it crossed my mind that those tests weren’t good and that I couldn’t trust him or the people he’s been with. I thought porn people were the cleanest people in the world, is what I thought.” - Lara Roxx, diagnosed with HIV in April, 2004 along with four other porn stars.

I found out 2 days later that I had caught gonorrhoea in my first scene! As quick as that the glamour of being a porn star was gone. In the five years I was shooting I caught Gonorrhoea and Chlamydia many times. Sometimes both at the same time about every 3-5 months. - Nadia Styles

As for myself, I ended up paying the price from working in the porn industry. In 2006, not even 9 months in, I caught a moderate form of dysplasia of the cervix (which is a form of HPV, a sexually transmitted disease) and later that day, I also found out I was pregnant. I had only 1 choice which was to abort the baby during my first month. It was extremely painful emotionally and physically. When it was all over, I cried my eyes out.- Tamra Toryn

My first movie I was treated very rough by 3 guys. They pounded on me, gagged me with their penises, and tossed me around like I was a ball! I was sore, hurting and could barely walk. My insides burned and hurt so badly. I could barely pee and to try to have a bowel movement was out of the question. I was hurting so bad from the physical abuse from these 3 male porn stars. - Alexa Milano

People in the porn industry are numb to real life and are like zombies walking around. The abuse that goes on in this industry is completely ridiculous. The way these young ladies are treated is totally sick and brainwashing. I left due to the trauma I experienced even though I was there only a short time. - Jessie Jewels

The problem is, is that after reading these testimonies, their videos are still out there and to the average onlooker, they have no idea of the reality of what conditions some of those movies were filmed under. They reason the girls must have enjoyed it, when the above testimony says otherwise.

And we'll never really know either when it comes to many of the gonzo videos out there. The next time someone watches a movie where a girl is vomiting up snot and bodily fluids because of the gag reflex and being thrown around like a stuffed sex toy by 5 guys, we'll never know whether she was really 'OK' with that or whether she was just going through the motions.

I'm not advocating that such gonzo porn be banned because I live in the real world. It's not something that's going to go away but don't try and argue that it's harmless on young boys growing up, or we should disregard any criticism because all industries exploit people. To that same degree?

Anyways, I've spent way too much time on this post. I'll concede that I'm not going to convince either of you from your intellectually superior positions because the time and effort that it takes to have these kind of online skirmishes with quoting and pasting answers just wouldn't be worth it (it's not for me because I have plenty of other things I could be doing with that time). Is there anything productive about arguing with strangers on the internet for days on end? Not for me.

Nevertheless, well met.

nozzferrahhtoo

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

I'm talking about the extreme 'gonzo' variety, which I believe isn't so healthy for young boys to grow up watching while they're just hitting puberty and yes, I do believe that many of the women who subject themselves to it aren't their by “choice”

I understand your concerns, I just do not share them.

Our pubescent teens also grow up watching James Bond and the like, but they do not go out jumping off buildings and trying to shoot people.

I think you are massively underestimating, and because of that patronising, the ability of the common male teen to tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

Your entire post is made up of sentences which say “I believe” a lot. This may be what you believe about teen boys, or about the women who choose to involve themselves in the making of much porn. However I am less interested in WHAT you believe as I am about WHY you believe it, for which you have provided next to nothing.

You appear simply not to have the data or studies to back up what you believe about the motivations of these women. You like to believe it is not their choice and more power to you as you have the right to believe what you want. However I want to know if there is any reason I should believe that too, but none are apparent.

Remember, if you ever find yourself providing lack of data as your data, you are on shaky ground, every time.

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

I think you're forgetting that with the rise of amateur porn (You Porn, et al.) trying to get paid a decent sum to do porn just isn't what it used to be. The trend is towards more extreme forms

I am not sure that trend is as strong as you put it. There might be MORE of one type out there, but there is also MORE of the other types too. The trend appears to be just towards MORE. That is it. Not towards more of any ONE type. Maybe however you can provide figures.

I however am aware of, as I said, some sites that I can name if asked, that are among the top 10,000 sites visited on the internet today and are soft core, pay well, and treat their models with the utmost of care and respect, and do not require them to have any particular body type, hair arrangements, or style.

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

you can't just conveniently bat away the moral bankruptcy of certain porn directors, heavy-handed male actors, and agents

Nor do I, and if you read back over my posts in this thread you will see I addressed this. It is our attitude to porn across the world, whether we make it illegal or taboo, that fosters the type of environment that such bad directors thrive in.

It is us not them that create the atmosphere in which sex industry workers have no recourse to medical insurance, workplace malpractise suits, workers rights, police protection for bullying or violence in the work place and more.

This is an indictment of how society treats porn, NOT of the porn industry itself as you try to paint it. If you push ANY industry underground a bit you will find the same problems arising within it. Look at beggars and “begging pimps” as a random example. Look at what they do as a "job" for a few minutes and tell me if the results of the laws and taboos against that work do not result in the exact same problems as you describe in the porn industry. Then start thinking of more examples yourself.

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

All the evidence we do have to go on is the testimony from a number of women who got out of the industry:

One anecdote. Wow. My entire world view is changed.

We can all find anecdotes. For every bad one you find I will find someone who enjoys the industry. And outside the industry I can find you whole websites, with 1000s of subscribers, who LOVE making porn even for free for all to see because some people really just love doing it.

Again you can not indict an entire industry because you can find some people within it who were treated badly or hated it. Certainly not if it is 1 anecdote in an industry of many 1000s of people. Find me anecdotes reaching figures like 5% of the industry and we can talk.

I can find you stories of people who "got out of" nursing, and you would be horrified to hear the hours they worked, the low pay they were expected to take, and the disgusting often horrific tasks they were asked to perform.

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

The problem is, is that after reading these testimonies, their videos are still out there and to the average onlooker, they have no idea of the reality of what conditions some of those movies were filmed under.

Exactly, and if the porn industry were not subject to the taboos and laws that it is today and was then subject to standards like the rest of our industries are, we WOULD have such knowledge and we COULD create a Quality Mark System for the product etc etc. like every other product across the food and other manufacturing industries, and service industries, have.

The Corinthian

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

I'm talking about the extreme 'gonzo' variety, which I believe isn't so healthy for young boys to grow up watching while they're just hitting puberty and yes

OT, to begin with. Additionally, I actually think this is a very arguable point as sexism and misogyny has actually decreased in the West over the last few decades - so I would question the impact, if any, such pornography has.

I do believe that many of the women who subject themselves to it aren't their by “choice”, or rather, as much choice as one exercises in becoming/remaining a prostitute. Other circumstances come into play, and these aren't usually the same circumstances that effect people who work at McDonalds.

Assumption. Opinion. Supposition. Others do believe that evolution is a crock and the World is 6,000 years old, but that does not make it so.

In fairness, I do think that gonzo and other extreme forms of porn (e.g. bestiality, which is legal in a number of European countries, such as Hungary and Denmark) are both distasteful and, AFAIK, not anywhere as well regulated as other areas of that industry. I say AFAIK because I'm not in that industry and all I can judge from is anecdotal evidence that may or may not be accurate.

If so then it is the conditions that should be looked at, as well as the social effects of such pornography - however the latter is separate debate as this one really is centering upon the conditions of those working in the pornographic industry.

The sad fact is that we'll never actually get enough sufficient data from all the girls who work in this area or those who attempted a career and were badly exploited or abused.

There's actually no reason why an objective survey of the industry cannot be made in countries where it is legal. The main obstacles at present is that the findings on an objective one will be attacked by one side or the other based on moral or commercial motivations - that is if you can find someone to run an objective survey in the first place.

Many are probably too ashamed to go public and just want to forget the whole experience and move on with their lives.

This is the thing that I don't think some people seem to understand - being 'ashamed' of having participated in such an industry is not the 'fault' of that industry, but of the society that creates such standards.

Only a few decades ago, a woman would have been 'ashamed' of having lost her virginity before marriage, for example. There was nothing wrong with her having done so (from our moral perspective) and was only damned because of the sexual morality of her time.

This is not to say that in a few decades working in hard core pornography will be akin to being a lawyer (for a start, it'll probably be more ethical), but it could become largely acceptable - after all, not that long ago for many, pre-marital sex, homosexuality, 'living in sin' or having children out of wedlock were unthinkable aberrations of societal norms.

I mean, you can't look at the statistics for rape and think those are seriously accurate; lots of people never come forward!

Ergo we can just wildly speculate?

The problem with most public surveys nowadays, unfortunately, is that they are commissioned by pressure groups or ideologically motivated academics/politicians seeking data to validate a pre-existing assumption.

You did read the article that kicked off this thread, for example?

I just feel certain elements of the porn industry work the exact same way.

I just can't get past the fact that most of your arguments are prefaced with terms such as "I believe" or "I just feel".

All the evidence we do have to go on is the testimony from a number of women who got out of the industry

I do not want to dismiss such evidence, but such testimony has been challenged in the past as being false and for the sole purpose of socially exonerating the former performer from 'moral wrongdoing' because they were 'victims'. The original case was Linda Boreman (A.K.A. Linda Lovelace) who went on to become an anti-pornography campaigner, making numerous and ultimately unsubstantiated, allegations that - in fact the practice of turning on the industry once you left it became known as the Linda Syndrome.

In other cases, it is not even the performer who is responsible for the testimony, but the media in that they will actively manipulate interviews to achieve a specific 'angle' - a good example of this would be with Michelle Sinclair (A.K.A. Belladonna) who was part of an ABC Television documentary and subsequently felt that she was completely misrepresented by them.

This is not to say that there are not real abuses - Paul F. Little (A.K.A. Max Hardcore) appears to be a truly unpleasant piece of work, who is even shunned by most of the industry (including other 'gonzo' pornographers), and numerous former and current pornographic actresses have spoken out against him.

Personally, I think that if there are abuses, there is exploitation, then treat it in the same way as any other industry: Regulate it.

Anyways, I've spent way too much time on this post. I'll concede that I'm not going to convince either of you from your intellectually superior positions because the time and effort that it takes to have these kind of online skirmishes with quoting and pasting answers just wouldn't be worth it (it's not for me because I have plenty of other things I could be doing with that time). Is there anything productive about arguing with strangers on the internet for days on end? Not for me.

LOL. You're right, those grapes probably tasted bad anyway

Waking-Dreams

One anecdote. Wow. My entire world view is changed.

We can all find anecdotes. For every bad one you find I will find someone who enjoys the industry. And outside the industry I can find you whole websites, with 1000s of subscribers, who LOVE making porn even for free for all to see because some people really just love doing it.

Ah now, there's no need to get so sarcastic. Is that how you talk to other people who simply disagree with you? And I did state earlier that anecdotes don't make for good science but at the same time, when we're lacking solid statistical data they shouldn't be cast aside altogether. It just makes for discussion, no? Everyone here has an opinion on the industry yet none of us have ever worked in it; so we're all getting our information from other sources.

I can find you stories of people who "got out of" nursing, and you would be horrified to hear the hours they worked, the low pay they were expected to take, and the disgusting often horrific tasks they were asked to perform.

Your comparison of state nurses to porn actresses is baffling – apples and oranges; it's not the same thing, though I'll concede you see it that way and I can't change that. That's where we differ. I've heard men compare sex workers to lots of other service professions too. My opinion, yes, opinion, is that cognitive dissonance does play a part, protecting our high-self esteem as good, moral people. Self-justification is designed to protect our feelings of self-worth, of being a good and respected person in society. The catch-22 is that you can never really convince someone they're affected by dissonance theory because in their mind, it's all perfectly rational and they've done nothing wrong. Yet, there are alternative modes of behaviour.

I'm sure many men hate the fact that they can't openly discuss having used a sex worker or that they habitually beat off to young women being gang-banged quite aggressively because of social stigma and moral values but that's too bad. Just because they happen to like it and want others to embrace their liberal views on what should be acceptable, that it's a service like any other for human consumption, doesn't mean it's going to hold water with other people. Men who use such services suffer from an ego-centric view as well, remember.

Anyways, we're at an impasse. It's been an interesting discussion on a heated and very ambiguous topic but I simply can't justify spending this much time debating over it. I don't care that much about being right or wrong.

You did read the article that kicked off this thread, for example?

Of course, and I don't agree with her strict anti-porn views.

I just can't get past the fact that most of your arguments are prefaced with terms such as "I believe" or "I just feel".

I phrased it that way because I don't have any hard evidence to back my opinions up with. If I had of stated my opinions as fact you'd have pulled me up on that so please, enough with the pedantry. A lot of posters on this website speak from opinion, do you point that out every time too? I get it. I just thought it was worth the discussion.

The problem with most public surveys nowadays, unfortunately, is that they are commissioned by pressure groups or ideologically motivated academics/politicians seeking data

Indeed. And if there was a study done on the porn industry, depending on who was conducting it and what their motivations were, could we ever take such a thing seriously?

So where does that leave us?

I know we're all waxing intellectual here, we just don't share the same views and I accept that, hence why I'm cutting my loses.

This is not to say that there are not real abuses - Paul F. Little (A.K.A. Max Hardcore) appears to be a truly unpleasant piece of work, who is even shunned by most of the industry (including other 'gonzo' pornographers), and numerous former and current pornographic actresses have spoken out against him.

Personally, I think that if there are abuses, there is exploitation, then treat it in the same way as any other industry: Regulate it.

And I would be in full agreement for regulation though I fear we may never see such a thing.

LOL. You're right, those grapes probably tasted bad anyway :P

Cheeky! :P

The Corinthian

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

I phrased it that way because I don't have any hard evidence to back my opinions up with. If I had of stated my opinions as fact you'd have pulled me up on that so please, enough with the pedantry.

The reason I raise this is that I'm also aware that you are aware that this is purely opinion (as opposed to some who genuinely cannot differentiate opinion from fact and seem to treat an opinion as some sort of hypothetical cat in a box). Faced with that knowledge, I'd probably test these opinions and/or return to first principles with what I can say is fact, and work from there.

I'm not really attacking you, per say, just wondering why you've not done the same thing as I would.

A lot of posters on this website speak from opinion, do you point that out every time too? I get it. I just thought it was worth the discussion.

Only the really annoying one's who seem to think that being entitled to an opinion means that they are entitled to having that opinion respected, no matter how dumb it is.

Indeed. And if there was a study done on the porn industry, depending on who was conducting it and what their motivations were, could we ever take such a thing seriously?

Fair point. I do think that you do get objective data out there, but you literally have to commission it as market research - the only axe to grind business has is making a profit, after all.

And I would be in full agreement for regulation though I fear we may never see such a thing.

I don't know and, in all honesty, I don't really care all that much. I think it comes down to social mores and how they will change. The more socially acceptable something becomes, the more it seems to be brought in line with the rest of society.

nozzferrahhtoo

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

there's no need to get so sarcastic. Is that how you talk to other people who simply disagree with you? And I did state earlier that anecdotes don't make for good science but at the same time, when we're lacking solid statistical data they shouldn't be cast aside altogether.

For the most part they should actually. Anecdotes should be used to inform us heavily about WHERE to look for evidence and about what subject matters, but not as evidence in and of themselves. Of course each of us will pick the anecdote that best suits our own views, as you transparently did. Did you even ATTEMPT to find a “happy” anecdote even for one second to counter your own point? I doubt it, hence the sarcasm I pour on it and rightfully so.

If I can quite literally find one anecdote to match every single one you produce, then on what grounds can we NOT throw them out? They cancel each other out from the outset.

Yet I do not see you coming up with anecdotes to match each and every user of the FREE website www.newbienudes.com where people happily as a matter of course, make soft and hard core porn for all to see free... for no other reason than to just do it. That is 1000s of anecdotes of people who quite happily make porn, up against your ONE anecdote of one person who had a hard time from doing so. And that is just one site. I can name many more.

If we were to indict every industry that you can find one person who had a hard time under a bad boss or bad working conditions... not one industry would survive the application. Not... a single... one. Find what you think the top 3 most desirable career paths going are, and I bet you can find one anecdote to indict them.

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

Your comparison of state nurses to porn actresses is baffling

It would be if that was the comparison I am making, but I am not. I am scared to ask, lest you think I am being sarcastic again, but you do know what ANALOGY is right? The analogy does not have to be the same as the target… you just need some aspect of one to illuminate the point you are making about the other. Not for one to be the same as the other or to be directly comparable.

So what is baffling you is thinking I am comparing the two.

What I am doing is comparing the application of YOUR statements to the two and comparing the results of that. What I am doing is showing how useless it is for you to find one unhappy anecdote in an industry of THOUSANDS of workers, because there is quite literally NO industry in which you could not do so.

Or put another way, if you have a point that applies to EVERYTHING, then in a way it applies to NOTHING as it is useless in illuminating the conversation we are having here.

Again at the risk of sounding sarcastic, I honestly think a small amount of time invested in reading in depth what analogy is and how to correctly use and interpret it would benefit you massively. Maybe you think you know what it is, and my suggestion will be highly offensive to you, but I can tell you from what I see of your interpretation of mine, you should take the advice on board.

AngryBadger

Notwithstanding that it's probably fair to assume everyone posting in this thread agrees that illegal pornography, (i.e. snuff films, child porn etc.), is dsigusting, and rightly illegal and damaging to society as a whole;

Can someone explain to me why there's even the remotest suggestion that women who willingly get into the porn industry are victims?

Because unless you're suggesting that women as a demographic are incapcble of making their own decisions and dealing the consequences...then what the hell are you suggesting?

(open question btw not singling anyone one just boiling it down to the essentials)

Also I should throw in another caveat; that certain kinds of "consent" are ONLY AVAILABLE in the western world, which is a seperate and much bigger issue.

Killer Wench

AngryBadger wrote: »

Notwithstanding that it's probably fair to assume everyone posting in this thread agrees that illegal pornography, (i.e. snuff films, child porn etc.), is dsigusting, and rightly illegal and damaging to society as a whole;

Can someone explain to me why there's even the remotest suggestion that women who willingly get into the porn industry are victims?

Because unless you're suggesting that women as a demographic are incapcble of making their own decisions and dealing the consequences...then what the hell are you suggesting?

(open question btw not singling anyone one just boiling it down to the essentials)

Also I should throw in another caveat; that certain kinds of "consent" are ONLY AVAILABLE in the western world, which is a seperate and much bigger issue.

Your questions go to the core of the feminist movement. On one side, you have those who believe that women who use their bodies are allowing themselves to become commodities valued by the sum of body parts. On the other side, you have those who believe that women have the ultimate right to choose whatever they wish with their bodies even if it may be against the moral standard shared by society.

AngryBadger

Killer Wench wrote: »

Your questions go to the core of the feminist movement. On one side, you have those who believe that women who use their bodies are allowing themselves to become commodities valued by the sum of body parts. On the other side, you have those who believe that women have the ultimate right to choose whatever they wish with their bodies even if it may be against the moral standard shared by society.

Granted, but what confuses me is how people miss the hypocrisy inherent in asking these kinds of questions "on behalf" of women, whilst ignoring the fact that the issue is never raised where men are concerned, which reflects the double standard embedded in most gender issues, and which probably does more harm than good to feminism.

vicecreamsundae

i don't think porn has to be damaging. i think it's normal to want to see other people getting off.

but certainly the majority of porn out there IS sexist, and i think anyone who says that watching lots of porn doesn't affect people's attitudes about sex over time is deluded. no, that doesn't mean that anyone who watches violent porn is going to go out and rape someone. but it DOES influence what men and women consider normal/expected sexual behaviour. i know women who have had guys grab their necks or cum on their faces very early in their r'ships without discussing it. they're not neccessarily violent guys, or assholes, but porn seems to have made them think these kinds of things are acceptable sexual behaviour.

also, personally i don't think it's healthy for people to over-rely on pornography to get off. while i think masturbating daily is pretty normal, it would really put me off someone if they watched pornography everyday.

Bella_purple

Wow, interesting topic. I haven't read it all, though, just the last page...

I have put this question to myself too: how a woman can actually want to have this job? Having no 0 point to start the analyse from, I mean no data, not any pieace of information for what I seaked, I made a hypothesis: I assumed they could have been molested, as children. So I deliberatly chosen a psychological approach to the problem. Why? Because I thought it can give me a more in-depth perspective onto things; even get me to the core of the problem.
So I've searched on the Internet and I've descovered a testimonial artical where women said that they were molested. There is even a blog of a woman that claims to be a prostitute and she said she became like that because of a rape. She blames the rape for her choose in life. After this, I read a book about Economics where was given the example of a woman who had a career in programming, but, after some changes in her life, she chose to become a professional hooker.
Of course I don'y know if:
-the testimony was true,
-the case of the raped prostitute was true,
-and the case of the switching-career woman was true.
But they can be true, based on probability, so weather or not their specific cases were actually true, there is a person out there in the world that can encompass their experiences. This is based on common-sense, based on probability .
So from the little data a gathered, I can only say that relying on psychology and seeing the prostitute career choice as a rule can only cover some cases of the spectrum. We can have empathy and understanding for people that were abused and later in life have chosen something bad for themselves; but I think everyone is fully responsable for their own acts, otherwise all criminals should be released, because, poor them, they had a bad childhood. By that, I don't try to diminish the impact of trauma, but, after all, we all can chose what we like.

vicecreamsundae

Bella_purple wrote: »

Wow, interesting topic. I haven't read it all, though, just the last page...

I have put this question to myself too: how a woman can actually want to have this job? Having no 0 point to start the analyse from, I mean no data, not any pieace of information for what I seaked, I made a hypothesis: I assumed they could have been molested, as children. So I deliberatly chosen a psychological approach to the problem. Why? Because I thought it can give me a more in-depth perspective onto things; even get me to the core of the problem.
So I've searched on the Internet and I've descovered a testimonial artical where women said that they were molested. There is even a blog of a woman that claims to be a prostitute and she said she became like that because of a rape. She blames the rape for her choose in life. After this, I read a book about Economics where was given the example of a woman who had a career in programming, but, after some changes in her life, she chose to become a professional hooker.
Of course I don'y know if:
-the testimony was true,
-the case of the raped prostitute was true,
-and the case of the switching-career woman was true.
But they can be true, based on probability, so weather or not their specific cases were actually true, there is a person out there in the world that can encompass their experiences. This is based on common-sense, based on probability .
So from the little data a gathered, I can only say that relying on psychology and seeing the prostitute career choice as a rule can only cover some cases of the spectrum. We can have empathy and understanding for people that were abused and later in life have chosen something bad for themselves; but I think everyone is fully responsable for their own acts, otherwise all criminals should be released, because, poor them, they had a bad childhood. By that, I don't try to diminish the impact of trauma, but, after all, we all can chose what we like.

why do you only wonder why women get into porn, and not men? women enjoy sex, and while of course some women get into porn because they feel financially pressured or out of other options, there are CERTAINLY women who go into it because they love to have sex, and realise they can do it for a living.
also i'm not sure if you're talking about porn or prostitution or whether you consider them much the same.

Dudess

I really don't like hardcore porn (even if I like a little bit of "nastiness") but to ascertain there's a woman-hating agenda behind it and that the women are coerced into working in the industry, is ludicrous imo. I saw a hardcore porn actress being interviewed and describing how she's beaten, strangled, urinated on, etc and people asked her if she had been sexually abused. She said she was never abused, just into really messed up stuff. And that's the thing: some people are really into "messed up" stuff, it's their ultimate fantasy - men and woman.

That's not to say I think the porn industry is completely free of misogyny and degradation - I certainly don't (and even if the actresses aren't being debased, the characters are depicted as being debased) but it's a huge industry and there is bound to be various dimensions to it.

Permabear

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