Truth about Porn

lazygal

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dines-pornography

Anyone think she is onto something?

rainbow kirby

Thread moved from tLL to Humanities.

dazza_480

no their has always been men that are violent towards women even before porn was invented, porn is a reflection on the FANTASIES of men. people who make porn do so because of supply and demand. she also says a lot of comments that she doesn't back up which makes me suspicious. she only deals with violent porn,porn is much more diverse than that and what is degrading to some women might not be for other women. women also watch porn the porn that they watch is usually gay porn is that degrading to women if you can't handle it Don't watch it. but the main reason she brings this up is because people need fear and porn makes a good scapegoat to vent her frustration at men

seamus

Self-aggrandising misandrist who believes that all women in porn are exploited and all men who watch porn are depraved sociopathic potential rapists.

That much is clear from the article.

She says the blueprint for her aims is the eradication of slavery in the US

"I have found that the earlier men use porn," says Dines, "the more likely they are to have trouble developing close, intimate relationships with real women. Some of these men prefer porn to sex with an actual human being. They are bewildered, even angry, when real women don't want or enjoy porn sex."

Proof? Citations? Peer-reviewed studies? Or perhaps this is just a, "I interviewed women who have difficulty creating stable relationships and they all said that their partners used porn". She has an anti-porn agenda, so all she needs to do is look at some negative topics such as rape and child abuse, show that the offenders looked at porn and bingo-bango, 2+2 = 50.

"To think that so many men hate women to the degree that they can get aroused by such vile images is quite profound," says Dines. "Pornography is the perfect propaganda piece for patriarchy. In nothing else is their hatred of us quite as clear."

*cough*
Yes, men hate women. Angry, bitter, misandrist woman who has the gall to consider her opinions to be valid scientific or sociological research.

She has some valid points -

The much freer availability of porn has somewhat created a demand for acts which would have been relatively unknown 20 years ago, or at the very least would have been only found in the hardest of hardcore collections. This doesn't signal any increase in violent thoughts, it simply shows that people are more comfortable with sexuality and exploring sexual possibilities.
Sexual freedom allows one to be more comfortable considering sexual acts beyond the standard meat and two veg. After all, sex requires two consenting adults, so for every male who wishes to ejaculate on his partner's face, there's a willing female.

She cited a questionnaire where some women claimed that a male date ejaculated on them without asking, and that's proof that porn has objectified women. No, that's confirmation that there are some complete bastards out there and both men and women should be more assertive and pickier about who they hop into bed with, and when.

I have no doubt that the internet and the free availability of porn has changed the face of sexual relationships. But it has yet to be seen whether it's done so in a good way or bad way. Anything which makes sexually-repressed citizenships such as those in US, UK and here, more open to sexual thoughts and more open *about* their sexuality and sexual preferences, can only be a good thing IMO.

Slightly OT, but I heard an interview on Newstalk a few weeks back in relation to sex education. A women was talking about how she had a book which was used for discussing sexuality and sex with children - 8-year-olds and the like. Some people complained that to do so was to take away children's innocence. But she made a good point that's stuck with me - talking about "taking away innocence" implies that there's something wrong with sex, that there's something to be guilty about. In fact after eating and sleeping, sex is one of the most natural and fantastic things in life. There's nothing shameful or guilty in it.
Any societal shift which loosens up our taboos and allows us to discuss sex as freely as we would talk about work, should be welcomed IMO.

Dolbert

Excellent article, for me sums up my problems with the pornography industry much more eloquently than I could. It is extremely uncool to say that you dislike porn or have a fundamental problem with it. God forbid, if you do you are obviously a prude who has hangups about sex :rolleyes:

"The assumption that if you are a woman who hates pornography you are against sex shows how successful the industry is at collapsing porn into sex." Would the critics of the employment practices and products at McDonald's be accused of being anti-eating, she asks pointedly.

When I was a teenager some of the lads thought it would be funny to put on a porn movie in a room full of unsuspecting girls. What disturbed me most was the undertone of violence and humiliation, that this 'wh*re' being f*cked as hard as possible and reduced to a collection of orifices was apparently what men were supposed to get off on.

Some of my single female friends have been surprised by sexual expectations from guys they have been seeing, that can probably be attributed to the increasing exposure to porn. One girl told me that the first time she gave him oral, he had ejaculated into her face without warning her. When she got upset, he was surprised, as it's 'always done in porn'. How many (younger) men nowadays 'expect' anal, or nothing less than a total and complete wax downstairs, or think that a 'cumshot' is normal? Yes, men have always liked to look at titillating images, but I would say that the blurring of lines between porn and real-life expectations have really increased over the last 10 years or so.

strobe

lazygal wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jul/02/gail-dines-pornography

Anyone think she is onto something?

In a word.......no.

Seems pretty much identical to the things Mary Whitehouse was saying 20 years ago. Most of my male freinds would have looked at internet pornography at some stage. Pretty much all of them have been in normal healthy relationships. Pornography is just fantasy. People are inteligent enough to seperate it from real life in the same way that people that read fantasy novels about wizards and goblins can seperate that from the real world. The arguments she makes are the same tired ones that have been put forward since the early 60's. "Porn is degrading to women", "porn turns men into sexually perverse woman haters", "porn removes intimacy from sexual intercourse", "porn is eating our babies"..... They didn't hold up in the 60's, 70,s 80,s and 90,s and there is nothing to suggest they do now.

Delirium

No. For a start I've a problem with this statement:

"Pornography is the perfect propaganda piece for patriarchy. In nothing else is their hatred of us quite as clear."

There probably is some porn out there that is based on hatred to women. But any porn I've seen, I've never thought, 'wow, that guy must really hate her.'

"I am not saying that a man reads porn and goes out to rape," she says, "but what I do know is that porn gives permission to its consumers to treat women as they are treated in porn."

That sounds like she's saying a guy watches porn and then forces a woman into a sexual act they saw. Otherwise, I understand it to mean that the guy would suggest trying something new. I wouldn't think this is a bad thing assuming both agree to it.

And the interviewing of sexual offenders. What about the number of men who aren't sex offenders, which greatly outnumbers the men who are, why no interviews with them? Probably wouldn't help her campaign more than likely.

She's an anti-porn campaigner so it's not really surprising what she has written.

All porn isn't bad. Some problem should definitely campaigned against. But to dump the guy who makes a porno, with consenting adults in it, in with a child pornographer is daft. They're worlds apart.

topper75

Dolorous wrote: »

....he had ejaculated into her face without warning her.
....'expect' anal
....nothing less than a total and complete wax downstairs...

As a male, to be fair, I have wondered why these elements have become de rigeur now in those movies.

Still though, in principle, for adults I think there is nothing wrong with watching others getting off to get yourself off. This woman is wrong to suggest otherwise.

Any fella acting the idiot as above can be dropped. There isn't a shortage of normal men out there yet, is there?

The Corinthian

"Pornography is the perfect propaganda piece for patriarchy. In nothing else is their hatred of us quite as clear."

It is at this point that you're better off to stop reading the article in question or frankly anything by Gail Dines. Why, because this is not a statement of the psychology of pornography - it is a statement of ideology. That's right, it's not that she has objectively found porn to be bad but that she found porn to be bad so as to prove a subjective ideological point.

If you want to know if porn is bad, try to locate some peer reviewed non-partisan studies - hard to find but they exist. AFAIR, these tend to show that while porn is not the harmless bit of fun that some will claim, neither is it the first step on the road to serial killing and damnation eternal.

The Corinthian

Dolorous wrote: »

How many (younger) men nowadays 'expect' anal, or nothing less than a total and complete wax downstairs, or think that a 'cumshot' is normal?

It's arguable how much of all that is down to porn.

For example, anal sex is new in anglophone countries - it's been pretty common in much of continental Europe for a century now. In pre-Colombian America it was the standard, also for reasons of birth control.

As to the complete wax downstairs, I suspect that's a fashion thing, although (again, especially outside of anglophone countries) women are increasingly demanding men are effectively waxed too. Not sure if that's down to porn or just an aversion to flossing. Could be both.

Tattoos (especially 'tramp stamps') and piercings are other things one could accuse porn of introducing. Or not. Maybe it is just fashion.

As to cumshots, I thought those were out of fashion now, both in and out of porn? I had thought the 'creampie' was all the rage now for the cool kids?

As I said, it's arguable how much of this is down to porn. Or men. Especially the older you get, the more you find women watch it. Or that they like porn that you find is too nasty to watch.

I just think that the whole porn debate is a lot more complex than some femnazi's agenda.

Dolbert

topper75 wrote: »

As a male, to be fair, I have wondered why these elements have become de rigeur now in those movies.

Still though, in principle, for adults I think there is nothing wrong with watching others getting off to get yourself off. This woman is wrong to suggest otherwise.

Any fella acting the idiot as above can be dropped. There isn't a shortage of normal men out there yet, is there?

Oh I totally agree, I know not all guys would make the above assumptions! I was just surprised to hear that anyone would have expectations in real life based on what is essentially a fantasy! They were probably just unlucky with the guys tbh...

koth wrote: »

But any porn I've seen, I've never thought, 'wow, that guy must really hate her.'

It's that precise vibe that disturbed me tbh. Where she is called a 'f*cking b*tch/ slut', the sex is almost like an act of violence against this 'whore', and the woman/ collection of holes is pretty much reduced to a sperm receptacle.

It's disturbing to me on the same level that the whole 'madonne/ whore' complex prevalent in Ireland is disturbing to me, but that's for another thread

Blisterman

Dolorous wrote: »

It's that precise vibe that disturbed me tbh. Where she is called a 'f*cking b*tch/ slut', the sex is almost like an act of violence against this 'whore', and the woman/ collection of holes is pretty much reduced to a sperm receptacle.

There's no real right or wrong way to act in the bedroom (as long as it's consensual, of course.) Some people like to be dominated, some like to be the dominator. Even some of the strongest, most powerful, take no bull**** people can find nothing more of a turn on than being completely degraded, male and female by the way. I'm pretty sure these fantasies existed well before porn came along.

At the end of the day, most porn is just fiction, and like most fiction, it's designed to stir up emotions, in this case sexuality. You may not agree with what the characters do, or how they behave. Its all subjective, and there must be some people who get something out of it.

catthinkin

whatever gets you through the night so long as it does not involve amnimals or children and is between consenting adults i am fine with it . Porn has been around for as long as their has been humans and will be no matter if you like it or not , and futhermore if you dont like it dont watch it .

Dolbert

Those are both good points and I agree that my personal distaste for sexual degradation/ humilation is a factor here. I guess the fact that it's considered 'the norm' bothers me. Although I do have a male friend who says he only likes girl-on-girl as it's not as rough or formulaic, and the degradation aspect of most straight porn actively turns him off!

However, and here's another can o'worms... Can anyone who works as a porn actor/ actress really be emotionally healthy? For some reason, I can't help but think that something, somewhere has to have gone horribly wrong there. When I bring this topic up, cries of 'empowerment' abound, yet I can't help but think a part of that person has died inside. Do well adjusted people really end up in the porn/ sex industry?

if you dont like it dont watch it

I don't and don't. That doesn't mean I can't have issues with it though! Sometimes it's good to challenge our perceptions, I know I am considering aspects I hadn't before this thread.

seamus

Dolorous wrote: »

Do well adjusted people really end up in the porn/ sex industry?

Why couldn't they?

While many people see sex as something intimate and sacred, this is mainly a societal construct more than anything, and there's no reason why someone who considers porn as an occupation or a means to an end is emotionally stunted or unhealthy.

There is a perception that someone who would be involved in this is somehow soulless or emotionally cold, but sex doesn't have to be linked to emotions of love and intimacy. For many (if not most) porn actors, it's a fun activity which they enjoy and see it as a bonus to be paid for it - exactly as if they were getting paid to play football or whatever.

Ciaran500

Dolorous wrote: »

It's that precise vibe that disturbed me tbh. Where she is called a 'f*cking b*tch/ slut', the sex is almost like an act of violence against this 'whore', and the woman/ collection of holes is pretty much reduced to a sperm receptacle.

It's disturbing to me on the same level that the whole 'madonne/ whore' complex prevalent in Ireland is disturbing to me, but that's for another thread

Thats a type of porn, not all porn. If you had been only shown female domination porn would you be in here complaining about the abuse men get in the porn industry?

Dolbert

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Thats a type of porn, not all porn. If you had been only shown female domination porn would you be in here complaining about the abuse men get in the porn industry?

If that was all I had seen and thought it a fair representation? Absolutely, why wouldn't I? I'd find it disturbing. I know that cultural norms can change, and because so many are resentful of church oppression for years, to suggest that porn may be a bad thing goes against the grain for many.

A few years ago, durind the so-called 'Celtic Tiger' era, there seemed to be many women who seemed to confuse Sex & The City with reality (some are still around unfortunately). I think it's fair to say that relations between the sexes probably suffered as a result of certain women acting like spoilt, entitled b*tches. Of course many knew the difference between fantasy and reality, but a frightening number did not.

Complaining? Not really, just throwing an alternative viewpoint out there. I just think the idea of porn being completey consequence free from a cultural point of view might be a little misguided.

strobe

Dolorous wrote: »

are resentful of church oppression for years..... the so-called 'Celtic Tiger' era............. many women who seemed to confuse Sex & The City with reality ............ suffered as a result of certain women acting like spoilt, entitled b*tches.........Complaining? Not really, just throwing an alternative viewpoint out there.,,,,,,, the idea of porn being completey consequence free from a cultural point of view might be a little misguided.

ehhh........You really don't think you don't have any preconceived ideas? None at all? Really?...............

Kooli

Dolorous wrote: »

If that was all I had seen and thought it a fair representation? Absolutely, why wouldn't I? I'd find it disturbing. I know that cultural norms can change, and because so many are resentful of church oppression for years, to suggest that porn may be a bad thing goes against the grain for many.

A few years ago, durind the so-called 'Celtic Tiger' era, there seemed to be many women who seemed to confuse Sex & The City with reality (some are still around unfortunately). I think it's fair to say that relations between the sexes probably suffered as a result of certain women acting like spoilt, entitled b*tches. Of course many knew the difference between fantasy and reality, but a frightening number did not.

Complaining? Not really, just throwing an alternative viewpoint out there. I just think the idea of porn being completey consequence free from a cultural point of view might be a little misguided.

Wow Dolorous I can't believe you're the only one on here who finds porn as uncomfortable as I do! Thought I'd come and lend my support. I totally agree with everything you say, I definitely think there is an undercurrent of degradation in mainstream porn.

Some guys here are saying it has 'opened up sexuality' and encouraged people to try new things. Others have said it is as fictional as wizards and goblins and shouldn't be seen as real. To me those two viewpoints are mutually exclusive. Either it relates to our own sexual lives, or it doesn't - you can't have it both ways.

And for women out there who 'consensually' allow someone to ejaculate on their face, I would question how many of them really like it, and how many are doing it because it's expected of them or because they don't know how to say what they want or don't want.
(and please don't ask me for a peer reviewed study to back that up, it's just an opinion).

I also agree Dolorous, that when I hear the 'empowerment' argument for women involved in porn, a little bit inside of me dies!

The Corinthian

Kooli wrote: »

And for women out there who 'consensually' allow someone to ejaculate on their face, I would question how many of them really like it, and how many are doing it because it's expected of them or because they don't know how to say what they want or don't want.

The idea that some people get their jollies from being degraded is not a new one, so I really don't understand why this should surprise you. The rape fantasy is the single best example of this. The number of sex scandals involving ministers being whipped or turned into sex slaves, in the 1980's Thatcher government are legendary at this stage. Again, much of this predates pornography, so it's pretty questionable if pornography is to 'blame'.

Now, this sort of thing does absolutely nothing for me personally, but I do recognize that it does it for others. I would not question how many of them really like it, because the World really is full of people with bizarre sexual fetishes and hang-ups. I find when someone does come out with such questions, it's generally because of ego-centrism - because they're not into it, they don't see why anyone else would.

coffee_cake

The Corinthian wrote: »

in the 1980's Thatcher government . ... predates pornography

Ah, what...?

The Corinthian

bluewolf wrote: »

Ah, what...?

Nicely quoted out of context:

The Corinthian wrote: »

Again, much of this predates pornography, so it's pretty questionable if pornography is to 'blame'.

Not all. I discussed more than the 1980's.

Pedantry aside: It is difficult to say what the influence of pornography has been on such practices (as the recorded practice of them is in itself pornography), but I think it safe to say that S&M type sexual behavior and rape fantasies existed before the wide availability of pornography.

metrovelvet

Kooli wrote: »

Wow Dolorous I can't believe you're the only one on here who finds porn as uncomfortable as I do! Thought I'd come and lend my support. I totally agree with everything you say, I definitely think there is an undercurrent of degradation in mainstream porn.

Some guys here are saying it has 'opened up sexuality' and encouraged people to try new things. Others have said it is as fictional as wizards and goblins and shouldn't be seen as real. To me those two viewpoints are mutually exclusive. Either it relates to our own sexual lives, or it doesn't - you can't have it both ways.

And for women out there who 'consensually' allow someone to ejaculate on their face, I would question how many of them really like it, and how many are doing it because it's expected of them or because they don't know how to say what they want or don't want.
(and please don't ask me for a peer reviewed study to back that up, it's just an opinion).

I also agree Dolorous, that when I hear the 'empowerment' argument for women involved in porn, a little bit inside of me dies!

It's been a long time since I read Lacan but if I remember correctly he posits that in sexuality for a woman to be aroused she needs to think of the man as a hero and for a man to be aroused he needs to think of her as a whore. So we have the inversion of worship and degradation in even the most neutral non fetishistic interactions.

Media, whether porn or stupid shows like S and the city are symptomatic of this and satisfy this so they can make lots and lots of money.

Porn has been around since the dawn of time but it is so available now that is it becoming more and more mainstream, and like other media and representations it sets up expectations if we let it. Life imitates art after all. So the influence of porn on male female interactions is going to become a bigger and bigger fish to negotiate, like it or not.

Its all part of the fun of life. Humans eh?

coffee_cake

The Corinthian wrote: »

Nicely quoted out of context:

That's because I understand what you said to mean "the 1980s predates pron"

s&m in general yeah I guess, though porn has a long long history

The Corinthian

bluewolf wrote: »

That's because I understand what you said to mean "the 1980s predates pron"

Fair enough - I wasn't clear.

s&m in general yeah I guess, though porn has a long long history

Yeah, but is it porn that encourages such practices or the reverse? Or is it a bit of both?

Nonetheless, my main point was that the whole 'degrading' criticism seemed quite silly to me as it seems to have been something on the sexual menu for a very long time and hardly a product of the last century of pornography.

Most of the arguments being used are ego-centric, from what I can make out. Kooli and Dolorous are not into [insert sexual practice], ergo the only reason anyone else could be is due to peer pressure or other form of brain washing. Not terribly objective as it presumes everyone having the same tastes as them.

I just think the truth is more complex than the dreadful misandry that was presented in the OP's linked article.

fungun

i think porn itself is grand.

i think it being available through technology for young males of 12-15 who may only have porn as an example of what to expect from sex can create a problem in their minds in terms of what an average sex life is and how an average woman behaves in bed. This can in turn create a problem for women in terms of what the expectations men have of them are.

coffee_cake

The Corinthian wrote: »

Most of the arguments being used are ego-centric, from what I can make out. Kooli and Dolorous are not into [insert sexual practice], ergo the only reason anyone else could be is due to peer pressure or other form of brain washing. Not terribly objective as it presumes everyone having the same tastes as them.

I agree. Some women do like the face thing or many other things indeed, tastes vary.

And some of the arguments seem to come across as "some women were sexually assaulted in unusual ways therefore porn is bad". Eh, well, no.

Zombrex

Kooli wrote: »

And for women out there who 'consensually' allow someone to ejaculate on their face, I would question how many of them really like it, and how many are doing it because it's expected of them or because they don't know how to say what they want or don't want.

Er I would imagine they are doing it because they get paid to do it. If they don't like it they don't like it but may well do it for the money. How many people cleaning your hotel room's toilet like the job they are doing?

Kooli

Wicknight wrote: »

Er I would imagine they are doing it because they get paid to do it. If they don't like it they don't like it but may well do it for the money. How many people cleaning your hotel room's toilet like the job they are doing?

No I meant people in real life who agree to do this when their partner asks them to because he has seen it in a porn movie.

The Corinthian

Kooli wrote: »

No I meant people in real life who agree to do this when their partner asks them to because he has seen it in a porn movie.

I don't think there's anything wrong asking your other half to try something because you saw it in a porno or wherever. Expecting it is another matter.

liah

How many men (or women) with these degradation fantasies have ever honestly explored in themselves why they find these things tantalizing? While they may say "oh it's just fantasy, I totally believe women (or men) are equal outside of the bedroom/fantasy" etc etc.. how much of that is just compartmentalizing or convincing themselves they feel like that? Most, as far as I know, just accept they find this appealing without ever really analyzing why.

I'm not saying porn is bad, I don't care what someone's into, I'm just throwing something out there. Hell, I fall into that degradation fantasy trap just as much as the next person.. but I can still muse about it.