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Car insurance for >15 year old cars

13567…18

Comments

  • #102
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Well yeah, I for one would love to see the breakdown of the numbers by an independent body(fat chance in Ireland). The insurance industry can get off the stage claiming it would affect their business. In the case of motor insurance it not an "optional product" that one can opt out of* such as house or medical, it is a legal requirement for every citizen of this country who drives and as such should not be opaque.



    *the "well you have choice in the market" is a red herring and frankly BS, when companies decide for example to as groups to aid or refuse to insure cars over 15 years old. Cars that are according to another legal requirement the NCT, deemed perfectly fit for the roads. Something is very wrong in this picture.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #103
    BetsyEllen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭BetsyEllen


    I'm with Liberty for my 16 year old car.


  • #104
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    26000 Elephants wrote: »
    Ask yourself "what does 'Up to 80%' mean? Its either "80% of claims" or its some other figure. This is what the commission has been trying to get to. This is Kevin Thompsons game all along - fudge the figures so nobody has any idea of what is actually going on and all the while ripping off consumers.
    ...

    Fun fact if 80% of the 200,000* claims made last year were paid 15,000 as suggested by Insurance Ireland, it would have cost €2.4Bn. Yet they only paid out 700m :confused:

    ...

    * "claims notified" on private motor policies only

    So we have 3 scenarios here
    1) Insurance industry knows this and they are lying.
    2) Insurance industry can't do basic maths and think they are telling the truth.
    3) You and I are both genetically and intellectually inferior to the master race of insurance execs and their acolytes who can trace their pure roots back to the fatherland.

    I know which option gets the most votes round here! :pac::pac::pac:


  • #105
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    "nonsense", "ridiculous", "you have no credibility", "you don't UNDERSTAND insurance", "I'm putting you on ignore", "ye are all scummy scammers anyway" responses in 3...2...1...


  • #106
    Corvo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,704 ✭✭✭Corvo


    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    "nonsense", "ridiculous", "you have no credibility", "you don't UNDERSTAND insurance", "I'm putting you on ignore", "ye are all scummy scammers anyway" responses in 3...2...1...

    I'm not going to go down that road with you, but seriously you are an absolute pain to read in this forum, like some Call of Duty troll with your "lolz" etc and unbelievably childish. If you were in a bar I'd climb the fence of the beer garden, head straight to the church and pray I never bump into another idiot like you.


  • #107
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Corvo wrote: »
    I'm not going to go down that road with you, but seriously you are an absolute pain to read in this forum, like some Call of Duty troll with your "lolz" etc and unbelievably childish. If you were in a bar I'd climb the fence of the beer garden, head straight to the church and pray I never bump into another idiot like you.

    Corvo , I'll ramp it up every time somebody tells me completely correct information is "ridiculous" or "nonsense" or that I have zero credibility after posting correct information. Or that the Irish are genetically inferior.

    You might do better to advise insurance apologists to provide straightforward truthful information without an attitude and maybe we could ALL wind it back.

    Any opinion on the glaring discrepancies between the "magic money automatic 15k" and the actual payouts/claims?


  • #108
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Corvo and Special, lay off for the rest of the day.


  • #109
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    Corvo , I'll ramp it up every time somebody tells me completely correct information is "ridiculous" or "nonsense" or that I have zero credibility after posting correct information. Or that the Irish are genetically inferior.

    You might do better to advise insurance apologists to provide straightforward truthful information without an attitude and maybe we could ALL wind it back.

    Any opinion on the glaring discrepancies between the "magic money automatic 15k" and the actual payouts/claims?

    Well, if 80% of accidents result in a whiplash claim here and 5% in France, the only possible reasons could be:

    A: Easy money is just a phonecall away
    B: There is really some ridiculous, totally made up to make a point, genetic difference.

    Of course you loved the one about genetics. It was a point made because there is no genetic difference.
    You will now deliberately misinterpret this point (the same as the €500 payout) and simply run with it with your fingers in your ears going "LALALALAAA, I CAN'T HEEEEAAAAR YOUUU!", but nevermind. Well used to your tomfoolery by now. Try logic and reason next time. Facts and figures are your friend here.

    Also, it was earlier claimed fraudulent claims add €30-50 to a policy.
    Yes, those are the fraudulent ones. great maths. And it totally ignores the difference in payouts.

    The argument is "Payouts being nearly ten times what they are in other country are greatly increasing insurance premiums"
    The counter argument is "fraud adds only €30 to a policy".
    NOT the same.


  • #110
    26000 Elephants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Well, if 80% of accidents result in a whiplash claim here and 5% in France, the only possible reasons could be:

    [ etc.]

    Back that claim up. Please. €2.4bn would make whiplash one of the biggest industries in Ireland. But that doesn't happen. Total payouts were in the region of €700m
    So, again, please. Back up that statement.

    And as for "difference in payouts" - maybe learning the difference between the phrase "Up To" and "Average" might be a start.

    And Rod Munch, I'm still waiting for your response, now that you have gotten over your fit yesterday. ;)


  • #111
    ShadowHearth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,929 ✭✭✭✭ShadowHearth


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Well, if 80% of accidents result in a whiplash claim here and 5% in France, the only possible reasons could be:

    A: Easy money is just a phonecall away
    B: There is really some ridiculous, totally made up to make a point, genetic difference.

    Of course you loved the one about genetics. It was a point made because there is no genetic difference.
    You will now deliberately misinterpret this point (the same as the €500 payout) and simply run with it with your fingers in your ears going "LALALALAAA, I CAN'T HEEEEAAAAR YOUUU!", but nevermind. Well used to your tomfoolery by now. Try logic and reason next time. Facts and figures are your friend here.

    Also, it was earlier claimed fraudulent claims add €30-50 to a policy.
    Yes, those are the fraudulent ones. great maths. And it totally ignores the difference in payouts.

    The argument is "Payouts being nearly ten times what they are in other country are greatly increasing insurance premiums"
    The counter argument is "fraud adds only €30 to a policy".
    NOT the same.

    A. As I said before. Its like lucky lottery ticket to get in to small accident. Everyone is taking a piss.

    B. Have you seen Irish pub culture every single weekend?! People get more bruises, bangs and other health "accidents" and just walk it off. Car touched your car slightly - ****, call the ambulance and don't forget to give me your insurance details!!! Genetic my ass. :pac:


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  • #112
    Liam McPoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    26000 Elephants wrote: »

    1. Give us some figures to back up your 15,000 whiplash claims and generally spiraling claims costs.

    Source.

    Source.

    I have mentioned it a number of times but so far none of you have answered or even given any sort of opinion. Ye keep banging on about car insurance being a rip off, gouging and other such things.

    Insurance that involves potential risk to the public has spiked.

    Massive increases in pub insurance.

    Massive increases in SME insurance.

    So I'll ask again, why has the likes of motor, retail and pub insurance spiked yet house insurance has remained more or less static?

    If insurance companies are in a position to price how they want with no justification then why arent they loading home owners too? Most people that have a mortgage are bound by the terms of the mortgage to insure the property so its a captive market, same as motor insurance.

    There has to be a reason that an insurance product that has little to no risk to the public has not increased in price other than a couple of percentage points but insurance products that have high risk to the public has increased massively.

    Are you going to try and add anything or just skirt around the question?
    26000 Elephants wrote: »
    2. Insurance companies have only themselves to blame for their current mess. Using motor premiums to prop up investment losses sounds like a fraud to me.

    You are a good man for demanding facts and figures so hows about you provide some yourself about this. The losses / lack of return on investment have been aided by the global financial market collapse. The interest rates available currently are significantly lower than they previously were. Insurers must ensure they have enough money in their reserves to cover claims. If they cannot get those extra funds because of the poor investment returns available, how can they?
    26000 Elephants wrote: »
    3. Legal professionals have a right to their opinion as any of us. To charachterise their position as "propaganda" is churlish.

    The legal profession have a massive hand in claims costs. The injuries board was specifically set up so as to cut out the legal fraternity from the claims process to speed it up and to reduce costs. Approx 90% of IB cases are currently handled by solicitors. They operate on a percentage basis of the settlement figure so the bigger the settlement the bigger their cut. Do you honestly think they will not try and stretch claims out for as much money and as long as possible? It is how they make their money so it is in their interest to push for bigger settlement fees.
    26000 Elephants wrote: »
    4. To try and paint every unfortunate person who gets injured in an accident as a fraudster is simply wrong. Insurance companies are supposed to pay out money, thats the idea. To characterise all claims as theft is wrong. Actual fraud, while a problem that does need further work, is a small portion of this issue.

    Complete and utter straw man.

    Accidents happen, insurance companies have no issue paying claims that deserve to be paid, thats why people pay insurance, to be protected from financial loss in the event of an accident.
    26000 Elephants wrote: »
    And Rod Munch, I'm still waiting for your response, now that you have gotten over your fit yesterday. ;)

    Im not at your beck and call and I do not suffer muppets so if you expect any input from me then have some respect.


  • #113
    26000 Elephants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    Rod Munch wrote: »
    Source.

    Source.

    The mirror is just repeating Thompson's unsubstantiated claim. Nothing verifiable there.

    The journal is little better - but they interestingly insert Thompson's 80% claim into the PIAB story, despite the fact that it was never mentioned in the PIAB press release. Check it - its not there.

    So 2 things:
    1. The book of quantum states "Up to 15,700 for minor Whiplash that is substantially recovered"

    That does NOT mean that the average payout is 15,700. Yet almost every mention of this by the media includes "Average".

    And 2, Insurance Ireland has been making the 80% claim since February 2016 with no figures.

    Still waiting for some backing of these claims. I'm not saying its not true, I'm just amazed at how successful he has been at planting it into the media unchallenged. The dail committee only just stopped short of calling him a liar, so it intrigues me.

    Are you going to try and add anything or just skirt around the question?

    If you tried that tactic with house insurance, you wouldn't sell a policy. However, with motor insurance, its a legal requirement.
    (your mortgage provider may require it of you, but its not a legal requirement. There is a a difference)



    Complete and utter straw man.

    No, I think you will find that is not a straw man at all But feel free to chose the correct one from here


  • #114
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Rod Munch wrote: »
    Im not at your beck and call and I do not suffer muppets so if you expect any input from me then have some respect.

    meeeeeeow.




    How uncivil. My God if I was in a pub beer garden next to a church getting called an idiot by Corvo and a muppet by Rod Munch..... I'd sit back order another and have such lolz.


  • #115
    Liam McPoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    26000 Elephants wrote: »
    The mirror is just repeating Thompson's unsubstantiated claim. Nothing verifiable there.

    The journal is little better - but they interestingly insert Thompson's 80% claim into the PIAB story, despite the fact that it was never mentioned in the PIAB press release. Check it - its not there.

    So 2 things:
    1. The book of quantum states "Up to 15,700 for minor Whiplash that is substantially recovered"

    That does NOT mean that the average payout is 15,700. Yet almost every mention of this by the media includes "Average".

    And 2, Insurance Ireland has been making the 80% claim since February 2016 with no figures.

    Still waiting for some backing of these claims. I'm not saying its not true, I'm just amazed at how successful he has been at planting it into the media unchallenged. The dail committee only just stopped short of calling him a liar, so it intrigues me.



    If you tried that tactic with house insurance, you wouldn't sell a policy. However, with motor insurance, its a legal requirement.
    (your mortgage provider may require it of you, but its not a legal requirement. There is a a difference)





    No, I think you will find that is not a straw man at all But feel free to chose the correct one from here

    So people would just default on their mortgage requirements then?

    Of course they would.

    :rolleyes:

    Nonsense argument because you simply cannot disagree with the fact its because there have been little to no claims other than attritional ones on home insurance, that's why the cost hasn't moved much in the last few years.

    There is no legal requirement for any type of insurance except motor so you are talking out of your hat.

    You state above that some people think that all claimants are frauds, not one person said that.

    Therefore it makes it a strawman argument.

    You have the same head in the sand attitude as a few other people in here and experience has taught me there is no point in continuing debating with people that are so utterly myopic.

    You have your opinions and I have mine, let's just leave it at that.


  • #116
    26000 Elephants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    Rod Munch wrote: »
    So people would just default on their mortgage requirements then?

    Of course they would.

    Ok, you cant see the difference between the need for house insurance and car insurance from a statutory perspective. Thats fine.

    That whole thing is a deflection anyway.

    You have your opinions and I have mine, let's just leave it at that.

    You havent forwarded your case that 40% premium hikes are due to rampant fraud. Ive provided plenty of evidence to the contrary.
    I've provided figures to suggest that insurance 'losses' are simply creative use of provision accounts. You havent provided anything to counter that.

    If you want to leave it at that, thats cool.

    One more point to ponder. AXA's results for 2011 compared to 2015. When you drill into them you see a clear explantion for their loss:

    .................................2011..2015 (millions)
    Open Provision........ 124........124
    Premium income......246........316
    Close Provision ........119........164 (+ 40m!!)

    Total claims paid ........228.......221 (Yes, that was a reduction)

    Profit:...........................42....... -(38)


    Bear in mind that "claims paid" is not just whats given to claimants, it includes all expenses associated with the process, adjuster and legal fees. But on top of these numbers we have 60m for "management expenses" and commission.

    So no major spike in claims for the period under review. A huge spike in income, but a massive drop in profits? This is the real insurance "fraud". :)

    (All figures from statutory insurance company returns as published by the Central bank)
    (see table 13)

    Apologies for formatting, dont have time to import a table


  • #117
    Liam McPoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    You are the one deflecting but it's what happens in here.

    You want facts and figures?

    Go to google.

    Enter "central bank insurance statistics 2015"

    Click the link.

    Scroll to table 15, motor insurance.

    Total Income €685,819,000

    Total claims paid €808,486,000

    There are a few other bits and pieces but the end result is a net underwriting loss on motor in Ireland of over €220,000,000 in 2015.

    If you scroll down to table 17 you will see that property insurance had an underwriting profit of approx €46,000,000.

    So to spell it out, so we are crystal clear.

    Motor insurance lost a ball of money in 2015.

    Property insurance made a nice bit of profit in 2015.

    I wonder then would that have any bearing on why motor insurance has increased substantially but property insurance hasn't much at all?

    Its a real head scratcher for sure.


  • #118
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Rod Munch wrote: »
    You are the one deflecting but it's what happens in here.

    You want facts and figures?

    Go to google.

    Enter "central bank insurance statistics 2015"

    Click the link.

    Scroll to table 15, motor insurance.

    Total Income €685,819,000

    Total claims paid €808,486,000

    There are a few other bits and pieces but the end result is a net underwriting loss on motor in Ireland of over €220,000,000 in 2015.

    If you scroll down to table 17 you will see that property insurance had an underwriting profit of approx €46,000,000.

    So to spell it out, so we are crystal clear.

    Motor insurance lost a ball of money in 2015.

    Property insurance made a nice bit of profit in 2015.

    I wonder then would that have any bearing on why motor insurance has increased substantially but property insurance hasn't much at all?

    Its a real head scratcher for sure.

    Whats the average claim would you say? It's surely 15k plus with the hordes of people automatically getting 15k?

    What does the 80% figure refer to?


  • #119
    Corvo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,704 ✭✭✭Corvo


    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    Whats the average claim would you say? It's surely 15k plus with the hordes of people automatically getting 15k?
    In France and Germany, the normal award for whiplash is between €2,000 and €3,000 and the legal fees are in the hundreds. In Ireland, the average award for whiplash is €15,000. So we have the most expensive necks in Europe. Ironically, in the UK, the average payout for whiplash is £5,000 and they dub themselves as the whiplash capital of Europe

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/aig-urges-ban-on-whiplash-claims-to-cut-premiums-1.2548667
    Up to €14,400 – Minor whiplash neck injury – good recovery within 12 months
    €11,500 to €17,400 – Moderate whiplash injury.Substantially recovered within 24 months
    €15,900 to €64,500 – Significant ongoing whiplash injury
    €59,400 to €78,400 – Severe neck whiplash injury (serious and permanent condition)

    http://www.lawyer.ie/personal-injuries/whiplash-claims/


  • #120
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,169 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    From family experience with the PIAB process (now IB) it'd be difficult to leave with less than 20K. Very difficult.


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  • #121
    26000 Elephants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    Rod Munch wrote: »
    You want facts and figures?

    Go to google.

    I cited the source of my figures, why on earth would I google it? :)
    Rod Munch wrote: »

    Total Income €685,819,000

    Total claims paid €808,486,000




    Clever ploy to use the total figures, and not to drill into them. But it doesnt work.
    You included RSA in there, have a look at their income figure - Negative 112m.

    Over 200m is explained by negativve income, yet 'normal' claims of 130m

    They were recovering from a major financial scandal, not a neck brace in sight.

    Remove RSA as an outlier and see what you get. Better still, look at 2014 figures. Near 100m clear surplus.


  • #122
    Liam McPoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    26000 Elephants wrote: »
    I cited the source of my figures, why on earth would I google it? :)





    Clever ploy to use the total figures, and not to drill into them. But it doesnt work.
    You included RSA in there, have a look at their income figure - Negative 112m.

    Over 200m is explained by negativve income, yet 'normal' claims of 130m

    They were recovering from a major financial scandal, not a neck brace in sight.

    Remove RSA as an outlier and see what you get. Better still, look at 2014 figures. Near 100m clear surplus.

    OK, you are right.


  • #123
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    Whats the average claim would you say? It's surely 15k plus with the hordes of people automatically getting 15k?

    What does the 80% figure refer to?
    Corvo wrote: »
    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    Whats the average claim would you say? It's surely 15k plus with the hordes of people automatically getting 15k?
    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/aig-urges-ban-on-whiplash-claims-to-cut-premiums-1.2548667



    http://www.lawyer.ie/personal-injuries/whiplash-claims/

    I see you've conveniently avoided the 80% question.


    I wonder why. A real head scratcher.


  • #124
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    IrishTimes wrote: »
    The head of Insurance Ireland said today that claims for whiplash in motor accidents here now accounts for up to 80 per cent of motor insurance claims compared with just 3 per cent in some other countries.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/whiplash-accounts-for-80-of-motor-claims-insurance-chief-1.2549433

    Maybe herr doctor would field this one, such is his obsession with it and seeing as none of the insurance clique will touch it with a 10 foot pole?

    80% of claims involve a whiplash claim.

    Total claims * 0.8 * 15k.... how much is it?

    How many MULTIPLES of the actual payout is it?


  • #125
    Corvo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,704 ✭✭✭Corvo


    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    I see you've conveniently avoided the 80% question.


    I wonder why. A real head scratcher.

    I don't know what the 80% refers to, is it the other poster?

    Are you now convinced of the average payout for whiplash, or are you avoiding that?


  • #126
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Corvo wrote: »
    I don't know what the 80% refers to, is it the other poster?

    Are you now convinced of the average payout for whiplash, or are you avoiding that?
    I'm not avoiding it at all.
    It's in my last post there.
    Above you.
    Pop your head over the beer garden wall and have a look.
    See it? Got it? Are you sure you've got it? Because I didn't ask what the average whiplash payout was - I asked what is the average payout. Total cost of claims / number of claims if that much didn't sink in first time round the beer garden.


    I'm asking does this "80% of claims are accounted for by whiplash" thing stack up?

    Where can we find the figures to check this?


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  • #127
    Corvo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,704 ✭✭✭Corvo


    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    I'm not avoiding it at all.
    It's in my last post there.
    Above you.
    Pop your head over the beer garden wall and have a look.
    See it? Got it? Are you sure you've got it? Because I didn't ask what the average whiplash payout was - I asked what is the average payout. Total cost of claims / number of claims if that much didn't sink in first time round the beer garden.


    I'm asking does this "80% of claims are accounted for by whiplash" thing stack up?

    Where can we find the figures to check this?

    Hold on, you want me to go searching for the average payout for "a claim"?

    Again, I didn't bring up the 80% figure, go address that poster for it.

    I don't know if it is or it isn't, either that poster will have to go get it or you'll have to get it yourself and share it with us. I'd be as interested as you are.


  • #128
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Corvo wrote: »
    Hold on, you want me to go searching for the average payout for "a claim"?

    Again, I didn't bring up the 80% figure, go address that poster for it.

    I don't know if it is or it isn't, either that poster will have to go get it or you'll have to get it yourself and share it with us. I'd be as interested as you are.

    I'm doubting your ability to find the beer garden wall now to climb over it.


    Again, from the same article that I quoted from just a short while ago and provide the link for, the same article this "80% are 15k or more" kinda dubious claim came from:
    IrishTimes wrote: »
    The head of Insurance Ireland said today that claims for whiplash in motor accidents here now accounts for up to 80 per cent of motor insurance claims compared with just 3 per cent in some other countries.
    Kevin Thompson, chief executive of the organisation said at the moment awards for whiplash in Ireland average € 15,000 per case compared with € 5,000 in the UK and € 3,000 in France and Spain.
    He was reacting to comments from AIG, the world’s biggest insurer, which wants Ireland to consider banning whiplash claims to help counter soaring motor insurance charges and to avoid the average cost of premiums hitting € 1,000.

    Where can we find the data to back these figures up?

    Also, if insurers have the details of doctors who refuse to acknowledge sprains strains and whiplash that would be very interesting too! If it doesn't exist it really should be banned.


  • #129
    Corvo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,704 ✭✭✭Corvo


    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    Where can we find the data to back these figures up?

    Also, if insurers have the details of doctors who refuse to acknowledge sprains strains and whiplash that would be very interesting too! If it doesn't exist it really should be banned.

    No poster here is going to be able to produce these figures, they are from private companies. You know this.

    I can only tell you from my own experiences (which of course you can discredit at your leisure, as is your right) that I have seen a huge amount of cases that lets just say are quite fishy, and a lot of them are for whiplash.

    Of course, that's only my opinion from my everyday life and you can choose to believe it or not. I can't provide a percentage for you, as I don't compile statistics for such things in my job - perhaps an underwriter can provide further information or examples.


  • #130
    casscass4444
    Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭casscass4444


    Absolute joke the goons that are running this country. The cost of running any vehicle is colossal between all the separate bodies getting a touch of money out of you.
    Road tax is average 3 times the price it should be. The roads would rattle the teeth out of your head but apparently the road tax is used to maintain these cow tracks.
    Insurance is a lottery depending on who you ring.plenty of frauds around then to use it to their advantage and shaft the honest ones left.
    Can't understand how insurance companies are allowed to refuse to insure an older vehicle if its deemed roadworthy by the nct.
    None of the boys in the dail have a pair of stones between them.
    There won't be any nice classics left in this country between scrappage deals and companies not offering quotes.just a heap of characterless new cars driven by lads on borrowed money


  • #131
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Corvo wrote: »
    No poster here is going to be able to produce these figures, they are from private companies. You know this.

    I can only tell you from my own experiences (which of course you can discredit at your leisure, as is your right) that I have seen a huge amount of cases that lets just say are quite fishy, and a lot of them are for whiplash.

    Of course, that's only my opinion from my everyday life and you can choose to believe it or not. I can't provide a percentage for you, as I don't compile statistics for such things in my job - perhaps an underwriter can provide further information or examples.

    Would you ban it altogether though, or would you support high level guys who say genuine claimants should be severely punished to prevent the fraudulent claims?

    What would be a fair total cost for an average genuine whiplash claim?

    Let's acknowledge (as I always have despite herr doctors insistence that I'm defending 15k) that 15k average is a bit of a joke and that "das €500 unt der paracetamol" is as much of a joke figure.
    Compensation for short term pain and prevention of doing things you'd really rather be doing rather than sitting in a waiting room for physio and filling out forms and on hold dealing with insurance companies. But most of all the pain and poor sleep we'll say.
    And the total cost of a doctors + physio.

    Anything silly in there? Or anything I'm forgetting?

    Isn't this nice though, nobody throwing digs or trying to ambush anyone. Just straightforward reasonable posts. I respect you for winding things back first , there are many who won't blink first- myself included :o


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  • #132
    Corvo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,704 ✭✭✭Corvo


    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    Would you ban it altogether though, or would you support high level guys who say genuine claimants should be severely punished to prevent the fraudulent claims?

    What would be a fair total cost for an average genuine whiplash claim?

    Let's acknowledge (as I always have despite herr doctors insistence that I'm defending 15k) that 15k average is a bit of a joke and that "das €500 unt der paracetamol" is as much of a joke figure.
    Compensation for short term pain and prevention of doing things you'd really rather be doing rather than sitting in a waiting room for physio and filling out forms and on hold dealing with insurance companies. But most of all the pain and poor sleep we'll say.
    And the total cost of a doctors + physio.

    Anything silly in there? Or anything I'm forgetting?

    Isn't this nice though, nobody throwing digs or trying to ambush anyone. Just straightforward reasonable posts. I respect you for winding things back first , there are many who won't blink first- myself included :o

    Of course not, I think the man in AIG is off his rocker talking about banning it. Mind you, I don't know how you stop or even begin to determine fraudulent claims, bar those that are blatantly obvious of course. (I see a report recently on the news of a man that had made 10+ injury claims - he's either very unlucky or just having someone on). Something has to be done, or it's going to explode.

    But the average has to be reduced for the minor whiplash injuries, perhaps in line with other countries.

    I have found this little bit of further information on PIAB, that may have been shared already (they are from the 2015 report however).
    Value and Claim Category Analysis
    Over half (56%) of all PIAB awards are under €20,000
    and 9 in 10 (89.5%) are under €38,000. This has
    been consistent in recent years. The profile of injury
    type continues to predominantly involve soft tissue or
    fractures – or a combination of both. There has been a
    small drop in the percentage of cases under €20,000
    (56% in 2015 as compared to 59% in 2014).
    89.5% of personal injury awards are under €38,000,
    so it is clear that serious injuries continue to be the
    exception rather than the rule. The high volume of
    low to medium value personal injury claims drives the
    underlying aggregate claims bill in Ireland, which also
    comprises claims for property damage and financial
    reserves required to meet outstanding claims at year end

    I apologise for my comment previously, I just dislike (in general conversation, not you personally) the insurance industry as a whole taking a bashing after watching a lot of employees of such companies lose their livelihood following any amount of bad decisions by the big wigs at higher levels, and of course a myriad of problems in the government, legal profession etc. that have all contributed to the same mess that the country finds themselves in.

    As a broker delivering the bad news of 100%+ increases from insurers to commercial clients, I can totally sympathise with the general public.


  • #133
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Corvo wrote: »
    I apologise for my comment previously, I just dislike (in general conversation, not you personally) the insurance industry as a whole taking a bashing after watching a lot of employees of such companies lose their livelihood following any amount of bad decisions by the big wigs at higher levels, and of course a myriad of problems in the government, legal profession etc. that have all contributed to the same mess that the country finds themselves in.
    +1000. This nails it for me C.
    As a broker delivering the bad news of 100%+ increases from insurers to commercial clients, I can totally sympathise with the general public.
    Of course you do C. I don't blame the brokers or the lads and lasses at the other end of the phones come renewal time. They all have to work with what they can. I do blame the management, or lack thereof in the issuance companies, I do blame the judiciary involved in such claims and I most certainly blame successive governments hiding their head in the sand or actually encouraging excess in the sector. The government hold all the required cards to make a change, but…
    casscass4444 wrote:
    just a heap of characterless new cars driven by lads on borrowed money
    Indeed. The conspiratorial might conclude that this is the overall "plan" that is encouraged as it has so many vested interests from SIMI to the banks and other lenders and even the government tax haul and increased movement of money in such a motoring landscape.

    In my case my car's tax haul is restricted to tax on petrol and the road tax. No banks are, nor were involved in me buying it and the maintenance has amounted to under two grand over a decade. Now if I was to go out and buy a new Ford or whatever that was as "sporty" and quick, I'd be taking out a loan, the gov would get their cut on the sale price and I'd be locked into a main dealer for the foreseeable and I'd bet the farm my maintenance would be significantly higher after a decade, if it lasted that long. My insurance premium would be at least a third cheaper though, even though the car would be worth many multiples(and more and more cars are beginning to be more easily stolen too). Doesn't really equate…

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • #134
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,926 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    26000 Elephants wrote: »
    Thats infuriating. Who are they trying to target if a 34 year old driving a mid insurance group car with a clean license doesnt make the grade?

    Also, the number of quotes around the 1200 mark is getting suspicious. Thats what Liberty quoted me on renewal until I challenged it. The subsequently reviewed it to 700euro (still ridiculous for a rural 45yo driving a garaged 1.6 worth less than a grand).

    In any normally functioning insurance market I should be paying about 400.

    How did you get them to review it as a matter of interest?


  • #135
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    What would be a fair total cost for an average genuine whiplash claim?

    Let's acknowledge (as I always have despite herr doctors insistence that I'm defending 15k) that 15k average is a bit of a joke and that "das €500 unt der paracetamol" is as much of a joke figure.
    Compensation for short term pain and prevention of doing things you'd really rather be doing rather than sitting in a waiting room for physio and filling out forms and on hold dealing with insurance companies. But most of all the pain and poor sleep we'll say.
    And the total cost of a doctors + physio.

    Anything silly in there? Or anything I'm forgetting?

    Im astounded to be in agreement. To be fair, €500 would be the absolute minimum, average "could" be said to be about €2000:
    http://www.business-netz.com/Verbraucher/Schmerzensgeld-beim-Schleudertrauma

    The book of quantum is decidedly more generous:

    Minor – substantially recovered up to €15,700

    Minor – a full recovery expected up to €19,400
    These injuries are minor soft tissue, whiplash injuries. Whilst the duration of
    symptoms will be of importance, there are also other factors that need to be
    considered when calculating the assessment. Such factors would include the
    nature of the neck injury, the intensity of the pain and extent of the symptoms,
    the presence of additional symptoms in the back or shoulder areas, the impact
    of the injuries on the persons ability to work and/or the extent of the treatment.

    Moderate €20,400 to €30,200
    These injuries would be moderate soft tissue injuries where the period of recovery
    has been protracted and where there remains an increased vulnerability to further
    trauma. Also within this bracket would be injuries which may have accelerated or
    exacerbated a pre-existing condition over a period of time, usually no more than
    five years.

    Moderately Severe €34,400 to €52,200
    These injuries involve the soft tissue or wrenching type injury of the more severe
    type resulting in serious limitation of movement, recurring pain, stiffness and
    discomfort and the possible need for surgery or increased vulnerability to further
    trauma. This would also include injuries which may have accelerated and/or
    exacerbated a pre-existing condition over a prolonged period of time, usually more
    than five years resulting in ongoing pain and stiffness.

    Edit:

    I'll dig out some better figures later


  • #136
    26000 Elephants
    Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    How did you get them to review it as a matter of interest?

    A friend who contracted with them recently gave me a name of a senior manager in there. A few emails later they accepted that there was no basis in underwriting rules for the quote.

    I lived abroad for 10 years and had a company car the last few years so only have 3 years NCB. Apparently the system had me down as having lost the NCB, as opposed to it lapsing.


  • #137
    boardsuser1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭boardsuser1


    I'll be looking at taking out a second policy on my 16 year old Ford Puma later this year all going well, lots of welding needed underneath.

    Currently with AXA and my policy on my main car (a 09) is up in 6 weeks.

    As the Puma has the 1.7 Petrol engine I'll expect interesting quotes.


  • #138
    cplwhisper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 797 ✭✭✭cplwhisper


    Insuring a 2nd car in your name for you only driver on both cars is possible
    BUT
    with additional drivers will be complicated as whom would be main driver of each car

    If Puma is THunder model then best be sitting down


  • #139
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    cplwhisper wrote: »
    If Puma is THunder model then best be sitting down

    Ohhhh, is the leather seats or the 6 CD changer that boost up the premium from Puma to Puma Racing levels? The addition of ABS over the basic models?

    3439308-thundercats+(54).jpg


  • #140
    cplwhisper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 797 ✭✭✭cplwhisper


    Thunder Cats... great cartoon but showing your age too.

    Few of the 1.7 pumas came with higher bhp engines thus can be costly (but fun)


  • #141
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    cplwhisper wrote: »
    Thunder Cats... great cartoon but showing your age too.

    Few of the 1.7 pumas came with higher bhp engines thus can be costly (but fun)

    Yeah, but does yer database just lump any oul 1.7 in as being a Puma Racing?

    Non-racing 1.7 is Mini Cooper style performance, hardly intergalactic spacecraft are they?


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  • #142
    boardsuser1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭boardsuser1


    cplwhisper wrote: »
    Insuring a 2nd car in your name for you only driver on both cars is possible
    BUT
    with additional drivers will be complicated as whom would be main driver of each car

    If Puma is THunder model then best be sitting down
    She's a 1.7 vct Puma, no leather interior but it's in the planning.

    She's the 125bhp model.

    I have it dry stored at present to reduce the car to the elements, she needs a nice bit of cutting/welding.

    My O/H is named on my policy at present.

    I might consider just myself in the Puma.

    Whilst I do see a handful around from time to time they all appear to be either 1.4 (with blown engines) or 1.6.

    I've had several offers for the running gear only in the Puma but I refuse to part with it.

    Guys are dropping the 1.7 units (when they find them) into fiesta's, they are getting rare though slowly but surely.

    Reminds me of the Alfasud.


  • #143
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    KC161 wrote: »
    She's a 1.7 vct Puma,
    ...
    She's the 125bhp model.

    MileyJPG.jpg

    Well holy god ha.

    http://www.parkers.co.uk/ford/puma/coupe-1997/insurance-groups/

    Insurance group 23 out of 50.

    Hahahahaha - this must be one of the "few exceptions" we are told (on here) that Irish insurers make compared to the UK grouping.


    Below average insurance risk in the UK, what is it classed as here??????



    Thundercats-Slot-Car-Racer_1335976286.jpg


  • #144
    boardsuser1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭boardsuser1


    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    MileyJPG.jpg

    Well holy god ha.

    http://www.parkers.co.uk/ford/puma/coupe-1997/insurance-groups/

    Insurance group 23 out of 50.

    Hahahahaha - this must be one of the "few exceptions" we are told (on here) that Irish insurers make compared to the UK grouping.


    Below average insurance risk in the UK, what is it classed as here??????



    Thundercats-Slot-Car-Racer_1335976286.jpg

    She's a group 25 here with AXA


  • #145
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Tis a wonder you're alive at all at all. Anything above group 5 here guarantees imminent death in a fireball. So you best be sitting down when you go looking for the quote, begor.


  • #146
    boardsuser1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭boardsuser1


    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    Tis a wonder you're alive at all at all. Anything above group 5 here guarantees imminent death in a fireball. So you best be sitting down when you go looking for the quote, begor.

    Jasus i'm currently driving a group 15, i'd better watch out :pac:

    I'll get one or 2 quotes with no NCB just to get an idea.


  • #147
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    KC161 wrote: »
    Jasus i'm currently driving a group 15, i'd better watch out :pac:

    I'll get one or 2 quotes with no NCB just to get an idea.

    It's hard to know what to make of things really.

    One day you're being told:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101216928&postcount=1856

    The next you're being told group "mid twenties, middle of the road" rated cars are weapons of mass destruction.

    T'is as if the companies were making things up to suit themselves and getting "insert choice of adjective here" people to peddle it as "incontrovertible fact" to the gullible public.


  • #148
    cplwhisper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 797 ✭✭✭cplwhisper


    KC161 wrote: »
    Special Circumstances wrote: »
    MileyJPG.jpg

    Well holy god ha.

    http://www.parkers.co.uk/ford/puma/coupe-1997/insurance-groups/

    Insurance group 23 out of 50.

    Hahahahaha - this must be one of the "few exceptions" we are told (on here) that Irish insurers make compared to the UK grouping.


    Below average insurance risk in the UK, what is it classed as here??????



    Thundercats-Slot-Car-Racer_1335976286.jpg

    She's a group 25 here with AXA

    There 5 models of 1.7..= groups 25x1/group 27 x3 /group 30 x 1....


  • #149
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    cplwhisper wrote: »
    There 5 models of 1.7..= groups 25x1/group 27 x3 /group 30 x 1....

    You've accounted for a good chunk of the 1% of models that don't match the UK rating there. Are we to assume that all others do.... or that the 99% figure was wee bit optimistic?

    Good to know that "mid twenties, pretty much middle of the road insurance group" in the UK maps to "best sit down, this could shock you" here...


  • #150
    cplwhisper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 797 ✭✭✭cplwhisper


    The Irish group system is bit more exhausted as Ireland has difference look at the Honda civics racer cars and the like, as lots are reengined as are the fiesty's

    Mods having Ins questions Can PM me
    I'll help where I can


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  • #151
    Special Circumstances
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    cplwhisper wrote: »
    The Irish group system is bit more exhausted as Ireland has difference look at the Honda civics racer cars and the like, as lots are reengined as are the fiesty's

    Mods having Ins questions Can PM me
    I'll help where I can
    Do you mean like this?

    Hello caller, this is Silé Ní Headset, what would you like to insure?
    It's a Honda Civic.
    Well, now - is a standard engined car or is it a race car?
    Oh jesus tis only a 1.4 standard yoke....

    So, what happens next
    - does sile produce a quote for group 9, shtandard boggo civic
    OR
    - does sile assume it has been re-engined and produce a quote for the almighty baysht - the 1.6 VTEC, group 45... no wait, group 23!
    OR
    - does sile go straight for the nuclear option, Type R, group 34?
    OR
    - does sile hang up and go to a well ventilated dark room to get over the shock of the rampant 88bhp of a group 9 civic?



    Do ANY of those groups resemble the irish insurance groups or are we still within the 1% of cars that differ by 10% or more from the UK?


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