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Car insurance for >15 year old cars

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    Ok, I misinterpreted your comment earlier about the number of policies you dealt with - I incorrectly assumed you were a broker or agent. For that I apologise. I have friends in the brokerage business and increased premiums means more money for them. It also means fewer policies in areas other than obligatory motor insurance, but thats part of the issue here.

    However, the other points remain.

    1. Give us some figures to back up your 15,000 whiplash claims and generally spiraling claims costs.
    2. Insurance companies have only themselves to blame for their current mess. Using motor premiums to prop up investment losses sounds like a fraud to me.
    3. Legal professionals have a right to their opinion as any of us. To charachterise their position as "propaganda" is churlish.
    4. To try and paint every unfortunate person who gets injured in an accident as a fraudster is simply wrong. Insurance companies are supposed to pay out money, thats the idea. To characterise all claims as theft is wrong. Actual fraud, while a problem that does need further work, is a small portion of this issue.

    Now, again, please explain to me why Liberty have tried to extort an extra 500 euro from me and many others this years - other than to make whole their losses from other interests.

    No problem, I havnt worked in a direct sales environment in over 4 years and because I work for an insurer, as an underwriter, underwriting motor insurance, I see the problems in the industry on a daily basis. Its easy for me to talk about the issues as I'm acutely aware of them. Im on mobile ATM but will respond to your questions when I get home later on.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,625 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    There is a concerted effort to deny physics and physiology and declare whiplash to be imaginary.

    Anyone can sprain an ankle or a wrist doing the simplest of things, you could put your back out tying your shoelaces... but suddenly and unexpectedly accelerating an inverted pendulum which has evolved for brain size not robustness of the neck... be grand like, they're all spoofers. :rolleyes:


    If whiplash can't be successfully tainted as being a spoof injury, the next step is to pay out next to nothing for it.
    "oh but in country X with a completely different public health system the insurers only pay out Y"... but never mentioning the actual total cost and who picks up the balance of the cost.
    Disingenuous. Deceitful. Why???

    Well, the Irish have necks made from Marzipan, dunno, must be a genetic defect, personally I have been in several shunts and never had a problem. Frontal crash because car decided to switch into my lane, going close enough to 80 (total write off), no problem. Rear-ended at lights, bootlid and floor stoved in, no problem, car pulled out 2 meters ahead of me going 50 km/h, front left heavy damage, no problem, plus a few more in my wilder youth, never a single issue.
    Yet in this country people manage to have years of debilitating pain and need decades of treatment for 5 km/h car park shunts, the mind boggles.

    And this is not just something I'm saying for fun, it's statistically proven:
    http://radio.rte.ie/radio1highlights/80-whiplash-element-france-3-obviously-delicate-irish-necks-come-play/
    “80% of cases here have a whiplash element. In France, it’s 3%. Obviously, very delicate Irish necks have come into play here. There is no doubt some of this is accounted for by exaggerated claims.”

    So, only someone with cottage cheese for a brain (or maybe too much whiplash) would argue that the compo culture in Ireland is a figment of our imagination, everything is zippedy-dandy, nothing to see here, payouts are AOK (btw, they look after you in Deutschland when you have an injury), €2k vs €15k a difference of exactly €0 (I think your calculator is out of battery, dude) and so on.
    Seriously, dude, WTF.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    Whiplash - 80% in Ireland - Only 3% in France...

    Sure the only explanation for that is that us Irish are just lying, lazy malingerers.

    Probably nothing to do with the fact that France has both the Juges de Proximité and Tribunaux d’instance to handle these types of injuries so they dont get litigated.

    But I'm sure such a minor fact shouldn't be allowed get in the way of a bit of bally-gombeen-ery.

    As you were.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Well, the Irish have necks made from Marzipan, dunno, must be a genetic defect, personally I have been in several shunts and never had a problem. Frontal crash because car decided to switch into my lane, going close enough to 80 (total write off), no problem. Rear-ended at lights, bootlid and floor stoved in, no problem, car pulled out 2 meters ahead of me going 50 km/h, front left heavy damage, no problem, plus a few more in my wilder youth, never a single issue.
    Yet in this country people manage to have years of debilitating pain and need decades of treatment for 5 km/h car park shunts, the mind boggles.

    And this is not just something I'm saying for fun, it's statistically proven:
    http://radio.rte.ie/radio1highlights/80-whiplash-element-france-3-obviously-delicate-irish-necks-come-play/



    So, only someone with cottage cheese for a brain (or maybe too much whiplash) would argue that the compo culture in Ireland is a figment of our imagination, everything is zippedy-dandy, nothing to see here, payouts are AOK (btw, they look after you in Deutschland when you have an injury), €2k vs €15k a difference of exactly €0 (I think your calculator is out of battery, dude) and so on.
    Seriously, dude, WTF.

    Lolz at the inference of genetic and intellectual inferiority.

    Do you stand on a little box and do the smashing fist into palm and aggressive gesticulations when get into a roll of mocking the untermensch Irish?


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,929 ✭✭✭✭ShadowHearth


    What I learned so far:

    Getting someone to tip, or even just touch your car, while you in it is pretty much same as winning a lotto.

    I honestly don't know how far this whole thing will go.
    I **** you not now, I did a list of cars I am interested in and would like to buy. I wrote down details of each car and their reg numbers. Thursday I am planing to go to my broker and get quotes on those cars and see if even one of them will be around 1k eu.
    I **** you now, I feel like I am 18 again and looking to get insured. 30 year old man with full NCB and 12 years driving license should not be doing this bull**** and at least expect to get 1k eu insurance in any decent car. Do I really need to go back driving something like yaris and micra, but only if it's 1-5 years old, like I had to at 18? **** off!


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,121 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Lolz at the inference of genetic and intellectual inferiority.

    Do you stand on a little box and do the smashing fist into palm and aggressive gesticulations when get into a roll of mocking the untermensch Irish?
    Eh no. While I would be among the first to call shenanigans with regard to the Irish insurance industry and some of the plain nonsense they come out with and am living with as we speak, the plain fact is we're an incredibly litigious society, all too eager to "get the claim in" and this is long a thing in this country. I've seen it up close with friends and folks in the motor trade on both sides. There is an awful lot of padding going on. There are no "good guys" in this. The public taking the piss with claims, the judiciary enabling, even egging them on and the insurance companies not hindering the culture enough and again even egging it on. I have personally seen insurance assessors padding a bill so the garage and car owner "gets a twist". That's at the pointy end, further up the chain the industry in this country has seemingly been run by chancers and yahoos in the past. All this means we're all paying for it now.
    I honestly don't know how far this whole thing will go.
    I **** you not now, I did a list of cars I am interested in and would like to buy. I wrote down details of each car and their reg numbers. Thursday I am planing to go to my broker and get quotes on those cars and see if even one of them will be around 1k eu.
    I **** you now, I feel like I am 18 again and looking to get insured. 30 year old man with full NCB and 12 years driving license should not be doing this bull**** and at least expect to get 1k eu insurance in any decent car. Do I really need to go back driving something like yaris and micra, but only if it's 1-5 years old, like I had to at 18? **** off!
    I hear your pain SH and triple it. It's beyond a farce TBH and wholly illogical and inconsistent. Again we need far more transparency across the board for a "service" that is legally mandated. It should not be this hidden and IMH is a bloody crime that it is. Then again the Irish [insert any party here]government has proven itself over the decades since the foundation of this state to be a pack of gombeen morons incapable of regulating a damn thing.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 176 ✭✭Carbon125


    Key points from an article in the Irish Times:

    The Government is to establish a new commission headed by a former High Court judge to carry out international comparisons of Ireland’s personal injury awards in a bid to force down premiums.

    Under the plan, a national claims information database operated by the Central Bank will be set up within 18 months to hold motor tax, insurance and driving records of every motorist, and NCT details of every vehicle.

    The Government believes the database will help to identify repeat claims and would make it easier to catch uninsured drivers. Gardaí will also be given resources to allow for automatic number plate recognition.

    Whiplash accounts for up to 80 per cent of all motor insurance claims, with payments ranging up to €19,400. In the United Kingdom, the maximum payment is €7,600.

    Full article here.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,121 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Carbon125 wrote: »
    The Government is to establish a new commission
    Oh oh. Christ I hope it's not just another pocket lining exercise for members of a quango. It's not as if we don't have lots of previous on this score. :( *crosses fingers*
    Under the plan, a national claims information database operated by the Central Bank will be set up within 18 months to hold motor tax, insurance and driving records of every motorist, and NCT details of every vehicle.
    Great idea and one long overdue and one wonders why it's not on the go already. Yours truly also wonder why it'll take 18 months to implement. Don't the Gardai already have a database of tax and insurance attached to number plates? Whatever about the driving records the NCT database seems pretty up to speed within that system. How difficult would it be to add that into the existing Gardai one?
    Gardaí will also be given resources to allow for automatic number plate recognition.
    Not before time.
    Whiplash accounts for up to 80 per cent of all motor insurance claims,
    What the actual f… 80%?? That's pure scandal. :mad::mad: There should be a solid cap on such injury claims.

    Hopefully this all gets implemented and quickly as insurance costs across the board are really hurting people and small and large business too. Never mind individually, it's bad for the economy.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 176 ✭✭Carbon125


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Yours truly also wonder why it'll take 18 months to implement.

    That's sort of the typical glacial speed of the government doing it's thing.
    What do you expect? It's not a bank bailout, you know.
    That
    can of course be done overnight. :cool:


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    Wibbs wrote: »

    What the actual f… 80%?? That's pure scandal. :mad::mad: There should be a solid cap on such injury claims.

    Ask yourself "what does 'Up to 80%' mean? Its either "80% of claims" or its some other figure. This is what the commission has been trying to get to. This is Kevin Thompsons game all along - fudge the figures so nobody has any idea of what is actually going on and all the while ripping off consumers. The linking the garda databases (which doesnt work byw) with an NCT database is a red herring - it would take years to sort out.

    Fun fact if 80% of the 200,000* claims made last year were paid 15,000 as suggested by Insurance Ireland, it would have cost €2.4Bn. Yet they only paid out 700m :confused:

    Fraud is an accepted issue and needs to be dealt with - we know this but it is not the root cause of spiraling premiums.

    Has anybody asked the question of how it is insurance companies collect €1100m in premiums and pay out €700m, but this still leads to a loss on the books?

    Ask how is it allowable to claim a "hold back"** to reserves as a loss on the books. For example, FBD balanced their premiums to claims+costs last year. But had to make a provision to reserves of €80m. Their "Claims paid" return was increased by that €80m, making it look as if thy lost heavily on their policy writing. Its not just FBD, this is a common wheeze by insurers to paint a drastically worse picture than is the case.

    Why are insurance companies allowed to continue with a cost ratio of almost 50%? Thats an enormous margin for an industry that essentially produces nothing tangible. Its roughly split between 11% commsiion/bonus on sales (sorry rod, you missedout on that one!) and 23% operating costs. I see RSA and FBD have mademoves to tackle this, but pocketing €350m in expenses while criminalising the rest for having the temerity to claim of them seems bad form.

    * "claims notified" on private motor policies only
    ** Its allowable, but its a great way to hide a profit.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,121 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Well yeah, I for one would love to see the breakdown of the numbers by an independent body(fat chance in Ireland). The insurance industry can get off the stage claiming it would affect their business. In the case of motor insurance it not an "optional product" that one can opt out of* such as house or medical, it is a legal requirement for every citizen of this country who drives and as such should not be opaque.



    *the "well you have choice in the market" is a red herring and frankly BS, when companies decide for example to as groups to aid or refuse to insure cars over 15 years old. Cars that are according to another legal requirement the NCT, deemed perfectly fit for the roads. Something is very wrong in this picture.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,360 ✭✭✭BetsyEllen


    I'm with Liberty for my 16 year old car.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Ask yourself "what does 'Up to 80%' mean? Its either "80% of claims" or its some other figure. This is what the commission has been trying to get to. This is Kevin Thompsons game all along - fudge the figures so nobody has any idea of what is actually going on and all the while ripping off consumers.
    ...

    Fun fact if 80% of the 200,000* claims made last year were paid 15,000 as suggested by Insurance Ireland, it would have cost €2.4Bn. Yet they only paid out 700m :confused:

    ...

    * "claims notified" on private motor policies only

    So we have 3 scenarios here
    1) Insurance industry knows this and they are lying.
    2) Insurance industry can't do basic maths and think they are telling the truth.
    3) You and I are both genetically and intellectually inferior to the master race of insurance execs and their acolytes who can trace their pure roots back to the fatherland.

    I know which option gets the most votes round here! :pac::pac::pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    "nonsense", "ridiculous", "you have no credibility", "you don't UNDERSTAND insurance", "I'm putting you on ignore", "ye are all scummy scammers anyway" responses in 3...2...1...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,668 ✭✭✭Corvo


    "nonsense", "ridiculous", "you have no credibility", "you don't UNDERSTAND insurance", "I'm putting you on ignore", "ye are all scummy scammers anyway" responses in 3...2...1...

    I'm not going to go down that road with you, but seriously you are an absolute pain to read in this forum, like some Call of Duty troll with your "lolz" etc and unbelievably childish. If you were in a bar I'd climb the fence of the beer garden, head straight to the church and pray I never bump into another idiot like you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Corvo wrote: »
    I'm not going to go down that road with you, but seriously you are an absolute pain to read in this forum, like some Call of Duty troll with your "lolz" etc and unbelievably childish. If you were in a bar I'd climb the fence of the beer garden, head straight to the church and pray I never bump into another idiot like you.

    Corvo , I'll ramp it up every time somebody tells me completely correct information is "ridiculous" or "nonsense" or that I have zero credibility after posting correct information. Or that the Irish are genetically inferior.

    You might do better to advise insurance apologists to provide straightforward truthful information without an attitude and maybe we could ALL wind it back.

    Any opinion on the glaring discrepancies between the "magic money automatic 15k" and the actual payouts/claims?


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Corvo and Special, lay off for the rest of the day.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,625 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Corvo , I'll ramp it up every time somebody tells me completely correct information is "ridiculous" or "nonsense" or that I have zero credibility after posting correct information. Or that the Irish are genetically inferior.

    You might do better to advise insurance apologists to provide straightforward truthful information without an attitude and maybe we could ALL wind it back.

    Any opinion on the glaring discrepancies between the "magic money automatic 15k" and the actual payouts/claims?

    Well, if 80% of accidents result in a whiplash claim here and 5% in France, the only possible reasons could be:

    A: Easy money is just a phonecall away
    B: There is really some ridiculous, totally made up to make a point, genetic difference.

    Of course you loved the one about genetics. It was a point made because there is no genetic difference.
    You will now deliberately misinterpret this point (the same as the €500 payout) and simply run with it with your fingers in your ears going "LALALALAAA, I CAN'T HEEEEAAAAR YOUUU!", but nevermind. Well used to your tomfoolery by now. Try logic and reason next time. Facts and figures are your friend here.

    Also, it was earlier claimed fraudulent claims add €30-50 to a policy.
    Yes, those are the fraudulent ones. great maths. And it totally ignores the difference in payouts.

    The argument is "Payouts being nearly ten times what they are in other country are greatly increasing insurance premiums"
    The counter argument is "fraud adds only €30 to a policy".
    NOT the same.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    Well, if 80% of accidents result in a whiplash claim here and 5% in France, the only possible reasons could be:

    [ etc.]

    Back that claim up. Please. €2.4bn would make whiplash one of the biggest industries in Ireland. But that doesn't happen. Total payouts were in the region of €700m
    So, again, please. Back up that statement.

    And as for "difference in payouts" - maybe learning the difference between the phrase "Up To" and "Average" might be a start.

    And Rod Munch, I'm still waiting for your response, now that you have gotten over your fit yesterday. ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,929 ✭✭✭✭ShadowHearth


    Well, if 80% of accidents result in a whiplash claim here and 5% in France, the only possible reasons could be:

    A: Easy money is just a phonecall away
    B: There is really some ridiculous, totally made up to make a point, genetic difference.

    Of course you loved the one about genetics. It was a point made because there is no genetic difference.
    You will now deliberately misinterpret this point (the same as the €500 payout) and simply run with it with your fingers in your ears going "LALALALAAA, I CAN'T HEEEEAAAAR YOUUU!", but nevermind. Well used to your tomfoolery by now. Try logic and reason next time. Facts and figures are your friend here.

    Also, it was earlier claimed fraudulent claims add €30-50 to a policy.
    Yes, those are the fraudulent ones. great maths. And it totally ignores the difference in payouts.

    The argument is "Payouts being nearly ten times what they are in other country are greatly increasing insurance premiums"
    The counter argument is "fraud adds only €30 to a policy".
    NOT the same.

    A. As I said before. Its like lucky lottery ticket to get in to small accident. Everyone is taking a piss.

    B. Have you seen Irish pub culture every single weekend?! People get more bruises, bangs and other health "accidents" and just walk it off. Car touched your car slightly - ****, call the ambulance and don't forget to give me your insurance details!!! Genetic my ass. :pac:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle



    1. Give us some figures to back up your 15,000 whiplash claims and generally spiraling claims costs.

    Source.

    Source.

    I have mentioned it a number of times but so far none of you have answered or even given any sort of opinion. Ye keep banging on about car insurance being a rip off, gouging and other such things.

    Insurance that involves potential risk to the public has spiked.

    Massive increases in pub insurance.

    Massive increases in SME insurance.

    So I'll ask again, why has the likes of motor, retail and pub insurance spiked yet house insurance has remained more or less static?

    If insurance companies are in a position to price how they want with no justification then why arent they loading home owners too? Most people that have a mortgage are bound by the terms of the mortgage to insure the property so its a captive market, same as motor insurance.

    There has to be a reason that an insurance product that has little to no risk to the public has not increased in price other than a couple of percentage points but insurance products that have high risk to the public has increased massively.

    Are you going to try and add anything or just skirt around the question?
    2. Insurance companies have only themselves to blame for their current mess. Using motor premiums to prop up investment losses sounds like a fraud to me.

    You are a good man for demanding facts and figures so hows about you provide some yourself about this. The losses / lack of return on investment have been aided by the global financial market collapse. The interest rates available currently are significantly lower than they previously were. Insurers must ensure they have enough money in their reserves to cover claims. If they cannot get those extra funds because of the poor investment returns available, how can they?
    3. Legal professionals have a right to their opinion as any of us. To charachterise their position as "propaganda" is churlish.

    The legal profession have a massive hand in claims costs. The injuries board was specifically set up so as to cut out the legal fraternity from the claims process to speed it up and to reduce costs. Approx 90% of IB cases are currently handled by solicitors. They operate on a percentage basis of the settlement figure so the bigger the settlement the bigger their cut. Do you honestly think they will not try and stretch claims out for as much money and as long as possible? It is how they make their money so it is in their interest to push for bigger settlement fees.
    4. To try and paint every unfortunate person who gets injured in an accident as a fraudster is simply wrong. Insurance companies are supposed to pay out money, thats the idea. To characterise all claims as theft is wrong. Actual fraud, while a problem that does need further work, is a small portion of this issue.

    Complete and utter straw man.

    Accidents happen, insurance companies have no issue paying claims that deserve to be paid, thats why people pay insurance, to be protected from financial loss in the event of an accident.
    And Rod Munch, I'm still waiting for your response, now that you have gotten over your fit yesterday. ;)

    Im not at your beck and call and I do not suffer muppets so if you expect any input from me then have some respect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    Rod Munch wrote: »

    The mirror is just repeating Thompson's unsubstantiated claim. Nothing verifiable there.

    The journal is little better - but they interestingly insert Thompson's 80% claim into the PIAB story, despite the fact that it was never mentioned in the PIAB press release. Check it - its not there.

    So 2 things:
    1. The book of quantum states "Up to 15,700 for minor Whiplash that is substantially recovered"

    That does NOT mean that the average payout is 15,700. Yet almost every mention of this by the media includes "Average".

    And 2, Insurance Ireland has been making the 80% claim since February 2016 with no figures.

    Still waiting for some backing of these claims. I'm not saying its not true, I'm just amazed at how successful he has been at planting it into the media unchallenged. The dail committee only just stopped short of calling him a liar, so it intrigues me.

    Are you going to try and add anything or just skirt around the question?

    If you tried that tactic with house insurance, you wouldn't sell a policy. However, with motor insurance, its a legal requirement.
    (your mortgage provider may require it of you, but its not a legal requirement. There is a a difference)



    Complete and utter straw man.

    No, I think you will find that is not a straw man at all But feel free to chose the correct one from here


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Rod Munch wrote: »
    Im not at your beck and call and I do not suffer muppets so if you expect any input from me then have some respect.

    meeeeeeow.




    How uncivil. My God if I was in a pub beer garden next to a church getting called an idiot by Corvo and a muppet by Rod Munch..... I'd sit back order another and have such lolz.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    The mirror is just repeating Thompson's unsubstantiated claim. Nothing verifiable there.

    The journal is little better - but they interestingly insert Thompson's 80% claim into the PIAB story, despite the fact that it was never mentioned in the PIAB press release. Check it - its not there.

    So 2 things:
    1. The book of quantum states "Up to 15,700 for minor Whiplash that is substantially recovered"

    That does NOT mean that the average payout is 15,700. Yet almost every mention of this by the media includes "Average".

    And 2, Insurance Ireland has been making the 80% claim since February 2016 with no figures.

    Still waiting for some backing of these claims. I'm not saying its not true, I'm just amazed at how successful he has been at planting it into the media unchallenged. The dail committee only just stopped short of calling him a liar, so it intrigues me.



    If you tried that tactic with house insurance, you wouldn't sell a policy. However, with motor insurance, its a legal requirement.
    (your mortgage provider may require it of you, but its not a legal requirement. There is a a difference)





    No, I think you will find that is not a straw man at all But feel free to chose the correct one from here

    So people would just default on their mortgage requirements then?

    Of course they would.

    :rolleyes:

    Nonsense argument because you simply cannot disagree with the fact its because there have been little to no claims other than attritional ones on home insurance, that's why the cost hasn't moved much in the last few years.

    There is no legal requirement for any type of insurance except motor so you are talking out of your hat.

    You state above that some people think that all claimants are frauds, not one person said that.

    Therefore it makes it a strawman argument.

    You have the same head in the sand attitude as a few other people in here and experience has taught me there is no point in continuing debating with people that are so utterly myopic.

    You have your opinions and I have mine, let's just leave it at that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    Rod Munch wrote: »
    So people would just default on their mortgage requirements then?

    Of course they would.

    Ok, you cant see the difference between the need for house insurance and car insurance from a statutory perspective. Thats fine.

    That whole thing is a deflection anyway.

    You have your opinions and I have mine, let's just leave it at that.

    You havent forwarded your case that 40% premium hikes are due to rampant fraud. Ive provided plenty of evidence to the contrary.
    I've provided figures to suggest that insurance 'losses' are simply creative use of provision accounts. You havent provided anything to counter that.

    If you want to leave it at that, thats cool.

    One more point to ponder. AXA's results for 2011 compared to 2015. When you drill into them you see a clear explantion for their loss:

    .................................2011..2015 (millions)
    Open Provision........ 124........124
    Premium income......246........316
    Close Provision ........119........164 (+ 40m!!)

    Total claims paid ........228.......221 (Yes, that was a reduction)

    Profit:...........................42....... -(38)


    Bear in mind that "claims paid" is not just whats given to claimants, it includes all expenses associated with the process, adjuster and legal fees. But on top of these numbers we have 60m for "management expenses" and commission.

    So no major spike in claims for the period under review. A huge spike in income, but a massive drop in profits? This is the real insurance "fraud". :)

    (All figures from statutory insurance company returns as published by the Central bank)
    (see table 13)

    Apologies for formatting, dont have time to import a table


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    You are the one deflecting but it's what happens in here.

    You want facts and figures?

    Go to google.

    Enter "central bank insurance statistics 2015"

    Click the link.

    Scroll to table 15, motor insurance.

    Total Income €685,819,000

    Total claims paid €808,486,000

    There are a few other bits and pieces but the end result is a net underwriting loss on motor in Ireland of over €220,000,000 in 2015.

    If you scroll down to table 17 you will see that property insurance had an underwriting profit of approx €46,000,000.

    So to spell it out, so we are crystal clear.

    Motor insurance lost a ball of money in 2015.

    Property insurance made a nice bit of profit in 2015.

    I wonder then would that have any bearing on why motor insurance has increased substantially but property insurance hasn't much at all?

    Its a real head scratcher for sure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Rod Munch wrote: »
    You are the one deflecting but it's what happens in here.

    You want facts and figures?

    Go to google.

    Enter "central bank insurance statistics 2015"

    Click the link.

    Scroll to table 15, motor insurance.

    Total Income €685,819,000

    Total claims paid €808,486,000

    There are a few other bits and pieces but the end result is a net underwriting loss on motor in Ireland of over €220,000,000 in 2015.

    If you scroll down to table 17 you will see that property insurance had an underwriting profit of approx €46,000,000.

    So to spell it out, so we are crystal clear.

    Motor insurance lost a ball of money in 2015.

    Property insurance made a nice bit of profit in 2015.

    I wonder then would that have any bearing on why motor insurance has increased substantially but property insurance hasn't much at all?

    Its a real head scratcher for sure.

    Whats the average claim would you say? It's surely 15k plus with the hordes of people automatically getting 15k?

    What does the 80% figure refer to?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,668 ✭✭✭Corvo


    Whats the average claim would you say? It's surely 15k plus with the hordes of people automatically getting 15k?
    In France and Germany, the normal award for whiplash is between €2,000 and €3,000 and the legal fees are in the hundreds. In Ireland, the average award for whiplash is €15,000. So we have the most expensive necks in Europe. Ironically, in the UK, the average payout for whiplash is £5,000 and they dub themselves as the whiplash capital of Europe

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/aig-urges-ban-on-whiplash-claims-to-cut-premiums-1.2548667
    Up to €14,400 – Minor whiplash neck injury – good recovery within 12 months
    €11,500 to €17,400 – Moderate whiplash injury.Substantially recovered within 24 months
    €15,900 to €64,500 – Significant ongoing whiplash injury
    €59,400 to €78,400 – Severe neck whiplash injury (serious and permanent condition)

    http://www.lawyer.ie/personal-injuries/whiplash-claims/


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    From family experience with the PIAB process (now IB) it'd be difficult to leave with less than 20K. Very difficult.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    Rod Munch wrote: »
    You want facts and figures?

    Go to google.

    I cited the source of my figures, why on earth would I google it? :)
    Rod Munch wrote: »

    Total Income €685,819,000

    Total claims paid €808,486,000




    Clever ploy to use the total figures, and not to drill into them. But it doesnt work.
    You included RSA in there, have a look at their income figure - Negative 112m.

    Over 200m is explained by negativve income, yet 'normal' claims of 130m

    They were recovering from a major financial scandal, not a neck brace in sight.

    Remove RSA as an outlier and see what you get. Better still, look at 2014 figures. Near 100m clear surplus.


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