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Car insurance for >15 year old cars

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    I cited the source of my figures, why on earth would I google it? :)





    Clever ploy to use the total figures, and not to drill into them. But it doesnt work.
    You included RSA in there, have a look at their income figure - Negative 112m.

    Over 200m is explained by negativve income, yet 'normal' claims of 130m

    They were recovering from a major financial scandal, not a neck brace in sight.

    Remove RSA as an outlier and see what you get. Better still, look at 2014 figures. Near 100m clear surplus.

    OK, you are right.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Whats the average claim would you say? It's surely 15k plus with the hordes of people automatically getting 15k?

    What does the 80% figure refer to?
    Corvo wrote: »

    I see you've conveniently avoided the 80% question.


    I wonder why. A real head scratcher.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    IrishTimes wrote: »
    The head of Insurance Ireland said today that claims for whiplash in motor accidents here now accounts for up to 80 per cent of motor insurance claims compared with just 3 per cent in some other countries.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/whiplash-accounts-for-80-of-motor-claims-insurance-chief-1.2549433

    Maybe herr doctor would field this one, such is his obsession with it and seeing as none of the insurance clique will touch it with a 10 foot pole?

    80% of claims involve a whiplash claim.

    Total claims * 0.8 * 15k.... how much is it?

    How many MULTIPLES of the actual payout is it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,668 ✭✭✭Corvo


    I see you've conveniently avoided the 80% question.


    I wonder why. A real head scratcher.

    I don't know what the 80% refers to, is it the other poster?

    Are you now convinced of the average payout for whiplash, or are you avoiding that?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Corvo wrote: »
    I don't know what the 80% refers to, is it the other poster?

    Are you now convinced of the average payout for whiplash, or are you avoiding that?
    I'm not avoiding it at all.
    It's in my last post there.
    Above you.
    Pop your head over the beer garden wall and have a look.
    See it? Got it? Are you sure you've got it? Because I didn't ask what the average whiplash payout was - I asked what is the average payout. Total cost of claims / number of claims if that much didn't sink in first time round the beer garden.


    I'm asking does this "80% of claims are accounted for by whiplash" thing stack up?

    Where can we find the figures to check this?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,668 ✭✭✭Corvo


    I'm not avoiding it at all.
    It's in my last post there.
    Above you.
    Pop your head over the beer garden wall and have a look.
    See it? Got it? Are you sure you've got it? Because I didn't ask what the average whiplash payout was - I asked what is the average payout. Total cost of claims / number of claims if that much didn't sink in first time round the beer garden.


    I'm asking does this "80% of claims are accounted for by whiplash" thing stack up?

    Where can we find the figures to check this?

    Hold on, you want me to go searching for the average payout for "a claim"?

    Again, I didn't bring up the 80% figure, go address that poster for it.

    I don't know if it is or it isn't, either that poster will have to go get it or you'll have to get it yourself and share it with us. I'd be as interested as you are.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Corvo wrote: »
    Hold on, you want me to go searching for the average payout for "a claim"?

    Again, I didn't bring up the 80% figure, go address that poster for it.

    I don't know if it is or it isn't, either that poster will have to go get it or you'll have to get it yourself and share it with us. I'd be as interested as you are.

    I'm doubting your ability to find the beer garden wall now to climb over it.


    Again, from the same article that I quoted from just a short while ago and provide the link for, the same article this "80% are 15k or more" kinda dubious claim came from:
    IrishTimes wrote: »
    The head of Insurance Ireland said today that claims for whiplash in motor accidents here now accounts for up to 80 per cent of motor insurance claims compared with just 3 per cent in some other countries.
    Kevin Thompson, chief executive of the organisation said at the moment awards for whiplash in Ireland average € 15,000 per case compared with € 5,000 in the UK and € 3,000 in France and Spain.
    He was reacting to comments from AIG, the world’s biggest insurer, which wants Ireland to consider banning whiplash claims to help counter soaring motor insurance charges and to avoid the average cost of premiums hitting € 1,000.

    Where can we find the data to back these figures up?

    Also, if insurers have the details of doctors who refuse to acknowledge sprains strains and whiplash that would be very interesting too! If it doesn't exist it really should be banned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,668 ✭✭✭Corvo


    Where can we find the data to back these figures up?

    Also, if insurers have the details of doctors who refuse to acknowledge sprains strains and whiplash that would be very interesting too! If it doesn't exist it really should be banned.

    No poster here is going to be able to produce these figures, they are from private companies. You know this.

    I can only tell you from my own experiences (which of course you can discredit at your leisure, as is your right) that I have seen a huge amount of cases that lets just say are quite fishy, and a lot of them are for whiplash.

    Of course, that's only my opinion from my everyday life and you can choose to believe it or not. I can't provide a percentage for you, as I don't compile statistics for such things in my job - perhaps an underwriter can provide further information or examples.


  • Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭casscass4444


    Absolute joke the goons that are running this country. The cost of running any vehicle is colossal between all the separate bodies getting a touch of money out of you.
    Road tax is average 3 times the price it should be. The roads would rattle the teeth out of your head but apparently the road tax is used to maintain these cow tracks.
    Insurance is a lottery depending on who you ring.plenty of frauds around then to use it to their advantage and shaft the honest ones left.
    Can't understand how insurance companies are allowed to refuse to insure an older vehicle if its deemed roadworthy by the nct.
    None of the boys in the dail have a pair of stones between them.
    There won't be any nice classics left in this country between scrappage deals and companies not offering quotes.just a heap of characterless new cars driven by lads on borrowed money


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Corvo wrote: »
    No poster here is going to be able to produce these figures, they are from private companies. You know this.

    I can only tell you from my own experiences (which of course you can discredit at your leisure, as is your right) that I have seen a huge amount of cases that lets just say are quite fishy, and a lot of them are for whiplash.

    Of course, that's only my opinion from my everyday life and you can choose to believe it or not. I can't provide a percentage for you, as I don't compile statistics for such things in my job - perhaps an underwriter can provide further information or examples.

    Would you ban it altogether though, or would you support high level guys who say genuine claimants should be severely punished to prevent the fraudulent claims?

    What would be a fair total cost for an average genuine whiplash claim?

    Let's acknowledge (as I always have despite herr doctors insistence that I'm defending 15k) that 15k average is a bit of a joke and that "das €500 unt der paracetamol" is as much of a joke figure.
    Compensation for short term pain and prevention of doing things you'd really rather be doing rather than sitting in a waiting room for physio and filling out forms and on hold dealing with insurance companies. But most of all the pain and poor sleep we'll say.
    And the total cost of a doctors + physio.

    Anything silly in there? Or anything I'm forgetting?

    Isn't this nice though, nobody throwing digs or trying to ambush anyone. Just straightforward reasonable posts. I respect you for winding things back first , there are many who won't blink first- myself included :o


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,668 ✭✭✭Corvo


    Would you ban it altogether though, or would you support high level guys who say genuine claimants should be severely punished to prevent the fraudulent claims?

    What would be a fair total cost for an average genuine whiplash claim?

    Let's acknowledge (as I always have despite herr doctors insistence that I'm defending 15k) that 15k average is a bit of a joke and that "das €500 unt der paracetamol" is as much of a joke figure.
    Compensation for short term pain and prevention of doing things you'd really rather be doing rather than sitting in a waiting room for physio and filling out forms and on hold dealing with insurance companies. But most of all the pain and poor sleep we'll say.
    And the total cost of a doctors + physio.

    Anything silly in there? Or anything I'm forgetting?

    Isn't this nice though, nobody throwing digs or trying to ambush anyone. Just straightforward reasonable posts. I respect you for winding things back first , there are many who won't blink first- myself included :o

    Of course not, I think the man in AIG is off his rocker talking about banning it. Mind you, I don't know how you stop or even begin to determine fraudulent claims, bar those that are blatantly obvious of course. (I see a report recently on the news of a man that had made 10+ injury claims - he's either very unlucky or just having someone on). Something has to be done, or it's going to explode.

    But the average has to be reduced for the minor whiplash injuries, perhaps in line with other countries.

    I have found this little bit of further information on PIAB, that may have been shared already (they are from the 2015 report however).
    Value and Claim Category Analysis
    Over half (56%) of all PIAB awards are under €20,000
    and 9 in 10 (89.5%) are under €38,000. This has
    been consistent in recent years. The profile of injury
    type continues to predominantly involve soft tissue or
    fractures – or a combination of both. There has been a
    small drop in the percentage of cases under €20,000
    (56% in 2015 as compared to 59% in 2014).
    89.5% of personal injury awards are under €38,000,
    so it is clear that serious injuries continue to be the
    exception rather than the rule. The high volume of
    low to medium value personal injury claims drives the
    underlying aggregate claims bill in Ireland, which also
    comprises claims for property damage and financial
    reserves required to meet outstanding claims at year end

    I apologise for my comment previously, I just dislike (in general conversation, not you personally) the insurance industry as a whole taking a bashing after watching a lot of employees of such companies lose their livelihood following any amount of bad decisions by the big wigs at higher levels, and of course a myriad of problems in the government, legal profession etc. that have all contributed to the same mess that the country finds themselves in.

    As a broker delivering the bad news of 100%+ increases from insurers to commercial clients, I can totally sympathise with the general public.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,124 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Corvo wrote: »
    I apologise for my comment previously, I just dislike (in general conversation, not you personally) the insurance industry as a whole taking a bashing after watching a lot of employees of such companies lose their livelihood following any amount of bad decisions by the big wigs at higher levels, and of course a myriad of problems in the government, legal profession etc. that have all contributed to the same mess that the country finds themselves in.
    +1000. This nails it for me C.
    As a broker delivering the bad news of 100%+ increases from insurers to commercial clients, I can totally sympathise with the general public.
    Of course you do C. I don't blame the brokers or the lads and lasses at the other end of the phones come renewal time. They all have to work with what they can. I do blame the management, or lack thereof in the issuance companies, I do blame the judiciary involved in such claims and I most certainly blame successive governments hiding their head in the sand or actually encouraging excess in the sector. The government hold all the required cards to make a change, but…
    just a heap of characterless new cars driven by lads on borrowed money
    Indeed. The conspiratorial might conclude that this is the overall "plan" that is encouraged as it has so many vested interests from SIMI to the banks and other lenders and even the government tax haul and increased movement of money in such a motoring landscape.

    In my case my car's tax haul is restricted to tax on petrol and the road tax. No banks are, nor were involved in me buying it and the maintenance has amounted to under two grand over a decade. Now if I was to go out and buy a new Ford or whatever that was as "sporty" and quick, I'd be taking out a loan, the gov would get their cut on the sale price and I'd be locked into a main dealer for the foreseeable and I'd bet the farm my maintenance would be significantly higher after a decade, if it lasted that long. My insurance premium would be at least a third cheaper though, even though the car would be worth many multiples(and more and more cars are beginning to be more easily stolen too). Doesn't really equate…

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,129 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Thats infuriating. Who are they trying to target if a 34 year old driving a mid insurance group car with a clean license doesnt make the grade?

    Also, the number of quotes around the 1200 mark is getting suspicious. Thats what Liberty quoted me on renewal until I challenged it. The subsequently reviewed it to 700euro (still ridiculous for a rural 45yo driving a garaged 1.6 worth less than a grand).

    In any normally functioning insurance market I should be paying about 400.

    How did you get them to review it as a matter of interest?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,625 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    What would be a fair total cost for an average genuine whiplash claim?

    Let's acknowledge (as I always have despite herr doctors insistence that I'm defending 15k) that 15k average is a bit of a joke and that "das €500 unt der paracetamol" is as much of a joke figure.
    Compensation for short term pain and prevention of doing things you'd really rather be doing rather than sitting in a waiting room for physio and filling out forms and on hold dealing with insurance companies. But most of all the pain and poor sleep we'll say.
    And the total cost of a doctors + physio.

    Anything silly in there? Or anything I'm forgetting?

    Im astounded to be in agreement. To be fair, €500 would be the absolute minimum, average "could" be said to be about €2000:
    http://www.business-netz.com/Verbraucher/Schmerzensgeld-beim-Schleudertrauma

    The book of quantum is decidedly more generous:

    Minor – substantially recovered up to €15,700

    Minor – a full recovery expected up to €19,400
    These injuries are minor soft tissue, whiplash injuries. Whilst the duration of
    symptoms will be of importance, there are also other factors that need to be
    considered when calculating the assessment. Such factors would include the
    nature of the neck injury, the intensity of the pain and extent of the symptoms,
    the presence of additional symptoms in the back or shoulder areas, the impact
    of the injuries on the persons ability to work and/or the extent of the treatment.

    Moderate €20,400 to €30,200
    These injuries would be moderate soft tissue injuries where the period of recovery
    has been protracted and where there remains an increased vulnerability to further
    trauma. Also within this bracket would be injuries which may have accelerated or
    exacerbated a pre-existing condition over a period of time, usually no more than
    five years.

    Moderately Severe €34,400 to €52,200
    These injuries involve the soft tissue or wrenching type injury of the more severe
    type resulting in serious limitation of movement, recurring pain, stiffness and
    discomfort and the possible need for surgery or increased vulnerability to further
    trauma. This would also include injuries which may have accelerated and/or
    exacerbated a pre-existing condition over a prolonged period of time, usually more
    than five years resulting in ongoing pain and stiffness.

    Edit:

    I'll dig out some better figures later


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    How did you get them to review it as a matter of interest?

    A friend who contracted with them recently gave me a name of a senior manager in there. A few emails later they accepted that there was no basis in underwriting rules for the quote.

    I lived abroad for 10 years and had a company car the last few years so only have 3 years NCB. Apparently the system had me down as having lost the NCB, as opposed to it lapsing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭boardsuser1


    I'll be looking at taking out a second policy on my 16 year old Ford Puma later this year all going well, lots of welding needed underneath.

    Currently with AXA and my policy on my main car (a 09) is up in 6 weeks.

    As the Puma has the 1.7 Petrol engine I'll expect interesting quotes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 797 ✭✭✭cplwhisper


    Insuring a 2nd car in your name for you only driver on both cars is possible
    BUT
    with additional drivers will be complicated as whom would be main driver of each car

    If Puma is THunder model then best be sitting down


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    cplwhisper wrote: »
    If Puma is THunder model then best be sitting down

    Ohhhh, is the leather seats or the 6 CD changer that boost up the premium from Puma to Puma Racing levels? The addition of ABS over the basic models?

    3439308-thundercats+(54).jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 797 ✭✭✭cplwhisper


    Thunder Cats... great cartoon but showing your age too.

    Few of the 1.7 pumas came with higher bhp engines thus can be costly (but fun)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    cplwhisper wrote: »
    Thunder Cats... great cartoon but showing your age too.

    Few of the 1.7 pumas came with higher bhp engines thus can be costly (but fun)

    Yeah, but does yer database just lump any oul 1.7 in as being a Puma Racing?

    Non-racing 1.7 is Mini Cooper style performance, hardly intergalactic spacecraft are they?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭boardsuser1


    cplwhisper wrote: »
    Insuring a 2nd car in your name for you only driver on both cars is possible
    BUT
    with additional drivers will be complicated as whom would be main driver of each car

    If Puma is THunder model then best be sitting down
    She's a 1.7 vct Puma, no leather interior but it's in the planning.

    She's the 125bhp model.

    I have it dry stored at present to reduce the car to the elements, she needs a nice bit of cutting/welding.

    My O/H is named on my policy at present.

    I might consider just myself in the Puma.

    Whilst I do see a handful around from time to time they all appear to be either 1.4 (with blown engines) or 1.6.

    I've had several offers for the running gear only in the Puma but I refuse to part with it.

    Guys are dropping the 1.7 units (when they find them) into fiesta's, they are getting rare though slowly but surely.

    Reminds me of the Alfasud.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    KC161 wrote: »
    She's a 1.7 vct Puma,
    ...
    She's the 125bhp model.

    MileyJPG.jpg

    Well holy god ha.

    http://www.parkers.co.uk/ford/puma/coupe-1997/insurance-groups/

    Insurance group 23 out of 50.

    Hahahahaha - this must be one of the "few exceptions" we are told (on here) that Irish insurers make compared to the UK grouping.


    Below average insurance risk in the UK, what is it classed as here??????



    Thundercats-Slot-Car-Racer_1335976286.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭boardsuser1


    MileyJPG.jpg

    Well holy god ha.

    http://www.parkers.co.uk/ford/puma/coupe-1997/insurance-groups/

    Insurance group 23 out of 50.

    Hahahahaha - this must be one of the "few exceptions" we are told (on here) that Irish insurers make compared to the UK grouping.


    Below average insurance risk in the UK, what is it classed as here??????



    Thundercats-Slot-Car-Racer_1335976286.jpg

    She's a group 25 here with AXA


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Tis a wonder you're alive at all at all. Anything above group 5 here guarantees imminent death in a fireball. So you best be sitting down when you go looking for the quote, begor.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭boardsuser1


    Tis a wonder you're alive at all at all. Anything above group 5 here guarantees imminent death in a fireball. So you best be sitting down when you go looking for the quote, begor.

    Jasus i'm currently driving a group 15, i'd better watch out :pac:

    I'll get one or 2 quotes with no NCB just to get an idea.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    KC161 wrote: »
    Jasus i'm currently driving a group 15, i'd better watch out :pac:

    I'll get one or 2 quotes with no NCB just to get an idea.

    It's hard to know what to make of things really.

    One day you're being told:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101216928&postcount=1856

    The next you're being told group "mid twenties, middle of the road" rated cars are weapons of mass destruction.

    T'is as if the companies were making things up to suit themselves and getting "insert choice of adjective here" people to peddle it as "incontrovertible fact" to the gullible public.


  • Registered Users Posts: 797 ✭✭✭cplwhisper


    KC161 wrote: »
    MileyJPG.jpg

    Well holy god ha.

    http://www.parkers.co.uk/ford/puma/coupe-1997/insurance-groups/

    Insurance group 23 out of 50.

    Hahahahaha - this must be one of the "few exceptions" we are told (on here) that Irish insurers make compared to the UK grouping.


    Below average insurance risk in the UK, what is it classed as here??????



    Thundercats-Slot-Car-Racer_1335976286.jpg

    She's a group 25 here with AXA

    There 5 models of 1.7..= groups 25x1/group 27 x3 /group 30 x 1....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    cplwhisper wrote: »
    There 5 models of 1.7..= groups 25x1/group 27 x3 /group 30 x 1....

    You've accounted for a good chunk of the 1% of models that don't match the UK rating there. Are we to assume that all others do.... or that the 99% figure was wee bit optimistic?

    Good to know that "mid twenties, pretty much middle of the road insurance group" in the UK maps to "best sit down, this could shock you" here...


  • Registered Users Posts: 797 ✭✭✭cplwhisper


    The Irish group system is bit more exhausted as Ireland has difference look at the Honda civics racer cars and the like, as lots are reengined as are the fiesty's

    Mods having Ins questions Can PM me
    I'll help where I can


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    cplwhisper wrote: »
    The Irish group system is bit more exhausted as Ireland has difference look at the Honda civics racer cars and the like, as lots are reengined as are the fiesty's

    Mods having Ins questions Can PM me
    I'll help where I can
    Do you mean like this?

    Hello caller, this is Silé Ní Headset, what would you like to insure?
    It's a Honda Civic.
    Well, now - is a standard engined car or is it a race car?
    Oh jesus tis only a 1.4 standard yoke....


    So, what happens next
    - does sile produce a quote for group 9, shtandard boggo civic
    OR
    - does sile assume it has been re-engined and produce a quote for the almighty baysht - the 1.6 VTEC, group 45... no wait, group 23!
    OR
    - does sile go straight for the nuclear option, Type R, group 34?
    OR
    - does sile hang up and go to a well ventilated dark room to get over the shock of the rampant 88bhp of a group 9 civic?



    Do ANY of those groups resemble the irish insurance groups or are we still within the 1% of cars that differ by 10% or more from the UK?


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