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Car insurance for >15 year old cars

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    JPF82 wrote: »
    I didn't meet their underwriting criteria..

    Thats infuriating. Who are they trying to target if a 34 year old driving a mid insurance group car with a clean license doesnt make the grade?

    Also, the number of quotes around the 1200 mark is getting suspicious. Thats what Liberty quoted me on renewal until I challenged it. The subsequently reviewed it to 700euro (still ridiculous for a rural 45yo driving a garaged 1.6 worth less than a grand).

    In any normally functioning insurance market I should be paying about 400.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    2002 Audi A2 1.4 TDi

    Dublin inner city, 50yr old, 6 yrs NCD, ten years no points.

    Ended up with a spooky €666 from BofI. Renewal with quoteme wanted €769.

    AA's web form was giving me quotes for a variety of cover permutations, and then just turned cold on me - no quote, even the links to the already issued quotes hit the same dead end.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,108 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    1998 Honda integra. 50 years old, full driving licence for so long I passed the test on a chariot, no penalties, no claims, full alarm and immobiliser among other security, 600 quid excess, sub 3000 Kms per year. Insurance from ARB was beyond daft last year at 1600 quid. Yep not a typo, this year they have come back with a quote of 2600. Gone up by a thousand euro. Don't try to tell me that the Irish insurance industry isn't a bunch of thieving daylight robbers passing on their past screwups onto the rest of us. :mad:

    I'm going to do the usual ringing around but likely to little avail. Worse, every single one of these bloody shysters wants seed, breed and generation for their databases and after all that they get to the part where they won't insure the car model itself. Just once I'd like them to tell me before I waste my bloody time with them. :mad::mad:

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,108 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Oh and without the NCB it's over 6000 euro. :eek::eek: Yeah. Yet another chap on this forum was a bit put out because a Porsche 996 turbo worth ten times my car at what four times the power? would be 3 and a half grand. Oh and my policy is me only apparently and third party fire and theft. Yep, not even compo at that. There is zero logic or reason for that difference. Utter bastards. :mad:

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Oh and without the NCB it's over 6000 euro. :eek::eek: Yeah. Yet another chap on this forum was a bit put out because a Porsche 996 turbo worth ten times my car at what four times the power? would be 3 and a half grand. Oh and my policy is me only apparently and third party fire and theft. Yep, not even compo at that. There is zero logic or reason for that difference. Utter bastards. :mad:

    I think the Irish insurance companies must have been on the hook for policies in Pearl Harbour. They still bear a grudge against the Japanese.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,108 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    It's organised theft is what it is. There is no way in hell that any actuarial type with a straight face can claim the risk of my car is nearly twice the risk of a 911 turbo. A minor front end tap for the 911 would cost more to repair than my entire car would cost to replace. At the premium minus the NCB of 6000 quid I could buy another example of my car and have change to have a spare smaller engined one for runs to the shops and pay the road tax on both and have enough left for a pint or three.

    My Broker. Earlier.
    highwayman.jpg

    To be fair to him I don't blame him, it's the **** in management(I stifled a laugh typing that) in the insurance industry and the utter cretins in government and the greasy till palmers in the legal profession.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    The stories here are utterly shocking.

    I'm in a serious quandary here (renewal not due until March so that buys me some time) This is what is going through my head at the moment (TL:DR I don't know what I'm going to do and need to really think it over, yet have no choice at the end of the day)

    I have (as previously stated) a 00 car. I could buy a younger model but for the money I am willing (due to only being able) to spend I'd be getting a 12yr old car most likely (and god knows what other issues - at least I know the motor I have has been looked after, serviced regularly, has been passing the NCT each year, has no issues)

    I'm not willing to spend 2k on insurance. While I can technically afford it (the funds exist in my bank account) I can't afford it.

    I will not pay it. I won't drive uninsured either though. Yet I know I can't refuse to do both without having to do one of them.

    I do live within cycling distance from work and most of the things I need but I don't have a decent enough bike to get there on. Roads to work are pretty trecherous as a driver (search my post history for that one too!) and due to the materials I need to bring with me for work it won't work.

    So really, I'm going on like I have a choice to make, but I don't. I need the car. So will have to find the money to pay. And THAT is the most infuriating part of it all. That I'm being backed into a corner.


  • Registered Users Posts: 189 ✭✭FreshCoffee


    99D car with Zurich but it's through a broker I've been with for many years and I find they always put in the effort.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    Bananaleaf wrote: »
    t I'm being backed into a corner.

    That is the crux of it all. You sound like a decent person who is being forced to consider options he finds deplorable. And that is clearly wrong.

    What this discussion needs is a devils advocate - someone who can put a case (even a hypothetical one) for the insurance companies that can be argued against. There must be some justification somewhere!! Otherwise we are witnessing a consumer fraud that puts PPI in the shade.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    The insurers claimed these cars tended to be involved in more collisions, were used in fraud cases, had bald tyres and were poorly maintained.

    URL="http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/insurers-refuse-to-cover-older-vehicles-31397715.html"]source[/URL Irish Independent July 2015

    Can a new-ish car have bald tyres? Of course it can. This is a responsibility of the owner and is not an inherent characteristic of the vehicle. bald tyres

    Ditto with 'poorly maintained'. Its a wonderfully vague notion that is difficult to pin down, yet worthy of a refusal to cover. Not to mention the snub to the (legally mandated) work of the NCT. poorly maintained

    Used in fraud cases? Again, this is not a characteristic of older cars, just the budget of the fraudsters.

    Which leaves 'involved in more collisions' - maybe they are. But where are the figures? And what was the outcome of these collisions? Who was driving these cars at the time? Maybe the issue is not with the age of the car, but its driver profile.

    Points to ponder.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭JPF82


    Out of curiosity, I tried another quote with FBD. Same car, but put in the year as 2009 instead of 2003. Yep, quoted me 640 euro. Even though the car is the exact same with 124,000 miles on the 2009 one I looked up versus the 128,000 miles that are on my 2003 Saab. But the 6 years makes my car unisnrable by them. Daft. If I get time over the coming weeks I might get a lost of examples together to put to the ombudsman. For all the good it'll do....but hey ho.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭gustafo


    Thats infuriating. Who are they trying to target if a 34 year old driving a mid insurance group car with a clean license doesnt make the grade?

    Also, the number of quotes around the 1200 mark is getting suspicious. Thats what Liberty quoted me on renewal until I challenged it. The subsequently reviewed it to 700euro (still ridiculous for a rural 45yo driving a garaged 1.6 worth less than a grand).

    In any normally functioning insurance market I should be paying about 400.

    Ridiculous

    And the amount of spouting going on in the media about people driving and not having insurance. i can understand why some people are doing it now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    gustafo wrote: »
    Ridiculous

    And the amount of spouting going on in the media about people driving and not having insurance. i can understand why some people are doing it now.

    I think I mentioned previously that the media have been partially complicit in this by running press releases issued by insurance companies without any questions. These set the expectations among consumers that increases are inevitable without giving credible reasons for it.

    The sad truth is that it has nothing to do with claims, costs or age of cars. Its about building a cash reserve. After years of reckless business practice they are being regulated into submission with larger reserve requirements. But instead of 'borrowing' ( negotiating a credit facility) on the wholesale money market, most insurance companies are financing this by gouging individual clients. How this is legal I have no idea.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,108 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    +1 and it's doubly annoying because it's a captive audience and legal requirement and what are our elected muppets doing about it? Feck all as per usual. Now I might whinge over my private car, but I personally know folks who use their cars for work, both self employed and as employees and this is really affecting them and this along with other general insurance hikes will trickle down and affect business in this country.

    The variability - that is the figures picked out of their arses - quotes shows them up for the gougers they are. In the other thread hereabouts where a chap after some tooing and froing finally got coverage for his over fifteen year old Porsche 911 turbo at I quote "with a €1,000 excess on a value of €60k and 'open driving' for any full licence holder over 35 which means they would have full comp as well while driving it for €1,040". OK the chap is 55 but still…

    Yet my renewal quote as a 50 year old with a full licence for 30 years means my 5 grand Honda is two and a half times the risk as a 60 grand 911 turbo? JPF82, admittedly a mere child at 35 ;) was quoted what the Porsche chap is paying and up to double for an 03 Saab 2.0 for just TPF&T. He eventually got a "bargain" at 690. Wildly differing quotes. Yeah remind me again how actuarial all this is? Someone is having a laugh at our expense.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    According to the central bank, the rise in insurance premiums in Ireland has very little to do with cost of claims, or whether fellas are knocking around in 15 year old almeras with baldy tyres... No. Its to make up for money they lost on the global financial markets in the last few years. They invested, it wasn't as profitable as they liked so Irish consumers must subsidise their poor judgement.

    After a few years of coining the cash on their investments, they blew it by undercutting each other to drive their competitors out of business. When they could no longer rely on their investing skillz to cover their intentional underwriting losses, the consumer ( who is forced by law to deal with them) has to help rebuild their asset sheets.

    Scandalous.
    I wrote to the Governor of the Central Bank of Ireland last July seeking a report setting out his assessment of the outlook for the insurance sector generally. I was advised that the Irish insurance sector emerged from the initial stages of the global financial crisis relatively unscathed.
    Until recently firms enjoyed a prolonged period of reasonable investment returns on the asset side of their balance sheets. This income stream provided firms with the scope to compete aggressively on price. However, recent reversals in investment markets worldwide have generated investment losses. This issue of lower investment income returns is an industry-wide problem which is expected to continue for the foreseeable future, unfortunately.
    The Central Bank has advised me that recent premium increases are designed to restore core underwriting profitability and to secure the financial position of the firms concerned for the longer term.

    Its only business, guys. Pay up. :mad:

    TL:DR Your 30% premium hike has nothing to do with the cost of claims in Ireland, and everything to do with restoring the balance sheet of a private company.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf



    Its only business, guys. Pay up. :mad:

    TL:DR Your 30% premium hike has nothing to do with the cost of claims in Ireland, and everything to do with restoring the balance sheet of a private company.

    Well isn't that just lovely.

    I know the question has been put out there already, but how is this legal?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    I think I mentioned previously that the media have been partially complicit in this by running press releases issued by insurance companies without any questions. These set the expectations among consumers that increases are inevitable without giving credible reasons for it.
    .

    They have the fvcking gall then to chastise us for abandoning mainstream media and listening to "fake news" when they serve us up fake news every day of the week to suit whatever big business hands them a press release.

    "Ye are all scamming scum, no mention shall be made of investment performance and gross mismanagement"

    "We took the total number of cars in Ireland and compared it with the number of insurance policies, and through this infantile and meaningless comparison we have proved that there are lots of cars uninsured den Den DEN!"

    "Diesel is clean and low emissions"

    Fake news, zero critical analysis.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Do you mind me asking why would you be with ARB in the first place, I thought they were the ones that specialised in high performance motors ?

    Burrrrrrrrrrn.

    Liberty are running a competition in their forum for a free fire extinguisher if you need it after that burn Wibbs. I encourage everyone to enter for the laugh.






    Shur a 2L econobox Japanese petrol is a performance car in Ireland. Nevermind a car with the prohibited VTEC (crosses oneself, makes sign to ward off evil eye, washes lad with holy water) technology. Oh be the hokey and VTEC in all its unholy forms must be driven out of Ireland.

    Edit...
    I have no idea what glitch in the matrix disappeared ferrari36000s question to Wibbs. I didn't make it up in swear!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    They have the fvcking gall then to chastise us for abandoning mainstream media and listening to "fake news" when they serve us up fake news every day of the week to suit whatever big business hands them a press release.

    Not fake at all. Just barefaced lies. And its obviously an industry agreed scheme as all the major companies are complicit. The media is simply lazy. Do any google search of articles in the independant, the 'oirish' mail, examiner, etc. and they all trot out the older-cars-fraud mantra.

    Or Conor from the AA with this sharp insight:
    Traffic volumes have increased rapidly, thus resulting in more crashes and more exposure. There is also evidence to suggest that the cost of settling claims for injuries is growing

    Oh really? But didnt you collect money from all those extra cars as well? :confused:
    And the evidence is that the cost of settling injury claims is actually reducing, according to the PIAB. The number of claims may go up, but usually in proportion to the growth of the overall insurance market.

    But the insurance companies lie in the face offacts from the RSA themselves. I quoted earlier about "bald tyres and poorly maintained" 15 year old cars. Yet the RSA admit that vehicle condition is a cause in only 0.2% of accidents. Thats 7 in 3200 vehicles in 2012. And an entire category of cars have been effectively banned as a result.

    "Ye are all scamming scum, no mention shall be made of investment performance and gross mismanagement"

    Thats what they are trying to portray us as.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,108 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Was reading another thread in the Motors forum about the new Fiesta ST 1.6 Ecoboost. Little pocket rocket and general fun car. 26 grand new. Insurance on one? Hope the folks over there don't mind but…
    About 600 euro fully comp with aviva, 27, full no claims, no points.
    GavRedKing wrote: »
    Mines €580 I think, 31, fully comp, no points, 9 years full license, no claims

    Edit : With AIG. Was with AA and they wanted nearly €700 on renewal, up from about €600.
    hooch-85 wrote: »
    Paid 640 last time. 30 full no claims 3 points. With AIG as well through a broker. Was quoted 750 and put the Mrs on the policy and it brought it down.
    peterk19 wrote: »
    Went with Campion Insurance broker in the end got it for about 550 fully comp 34 full no claims after all the usual insurers were looking for 700+
    testicles wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    MidMan25 wrote: »
    Stuck one into AXA (who i'm currently with) out of sheer curiosity.

    492 for fully comp.

    28 with full NCB, full license 6 years, and no points. Have the other half as a named driver.

    Note if ye will the slight variability, but look at the general prices. Now bear in mind these are a fast little sporty yoke and are(like the Focus) being nicked a lot in the UK so that's an extra risk. Yet the gouging shysters want over three times the premium for my car? Even though I'm older and only third party? If any insurance type tries to claim this is down to risk management I'll laugh in their faces.

    Oh and how things used to be different, but yet another example of how these charlatans have been gouging us for years. Back when I got my Satan Babyeater 3000 on wheels back in the early noughties I did look at a local original officially imported Irish example. In the end I didn't go for it and one of the biggest reasons was insurance on Irish market Integra's was significantly higher than on the Jap import examples. yep. Then again the Irish second hand car dealer network was making small fortunes in the Jap import market and some big names in SIMI were involved. When that was no longer a good revenue stream it's funny how the Japanese stuff became radioactive. Or not so funny…

    It would be my humble that at least some of this "no insurance for over 10 years old" is driven by the Irish car dealers/government to raise revenue and collect more tax euros. Well certain cars of that vintage. Far more powerful Porsches and Mercs and Beemers are not nearly hit so hard*. Well they're more likely to be driven by well heeled customers and you don't want to tick them off. It's also quite interesting that if you wait long enough then the "deathtrap on the road" magically becomes a "classic" at 20 years old and insurance costs fall off a cliff.



    *even though noughties Beemers are piss easy to steal and the drifter crowd love the Euro rear wheel drive stuff.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭26000 Elephants


    Just to really make your day Wibbs:

    According to the RSA, between 2008 - 2012

    Age of cars in accidents:

    1 to 4 years: 28.1 %

    15-19 years 7.2%

    The average age of cars in Ireland is about 8.3 years. Oddly enough, this group (5-9 years old) comprises of the majority of crashes:

    5-9 years 36.1

    The figures graph to a bell curve that pretty much reflects the age profile of the national fleet.
    The RSA crash "factbook" has about 60 different statistical breakdowns of accident - and vehicle age is not one of them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭Special Circumstances


    Ah now insurance companies have a mine of statistics to counter this.





    But the mine is guarded by dragons and only the grand high wizards can pass to gaze upon the sacred golden tablets of knowledge.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,108 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    As B said earlier and it sums it up for me TBH.
    beauf wrote: »
    Well it is. It's a Captive market with no oversight.

    If they can give wildly different quotes when the customer haggles or price matches, then the prices aren't credible.

    If someone has a long history of no claims, then it makes no sense they are a high risk if they change insurer. They are basically ignoring a clients history.

    The only reason that explains this is and it's that it's not based on risk, but on price gouging.
    Emphasis mine. I'd add that the Irish motorist is now paying because of the Irish insurance industries year on year monumental financial fcukups in the past. Oh and that includes not doing nearly enough to get legislation changed to reduce the ambulance chasers among the public and judiciary. They whinge about such types enough, yet did sweet FA about them in practical terms.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Wibbs wrote: »
    They whinge about such types enough, yet did sweet FA about them in practical terms.

    If my memory serves me from RTEs analysis a month or so ago spurious claims only make up about €36 per driver per annum if the stats are accurate. Small part of a €1500 premium.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,929 ✭✭✭✭ShadowHearth


    ED E wrote: »
    If my memory serves me from RTEs analysis a month or so ago spurious claims only make up about €36 per driver per annum if the stats are accurate. Small part of a €1500 premium.

    Right now everything with insurance companies just grind my gears. I am pissed off and worse thing is there is nothing I can do!

    Their excuse on high premiums - fraud. Premiums went up in 300-600eu, but it's only 50eu they say themselves!!!
    As one poster above said: oh car is too old, that's why increase, you get newer car, then it's: oh, car is too new!!!!
    Head full of ****! They contradict themselves each time amd get away with it. They just spitting at us and demand their money as we have no other choice.

    I don't know what to do anymore. I feel like I am 18 again. On my day off I am taking a list of cars to my broker and asking them how much it will cost to change! I am almost 31 with 8NCB, I shouldn't do this bull**** and expect the worse to be 1k eu max for insurance. Now it looks like of I get 1k insurance I am lucky.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    It is absolute bull and the insurance companies are absolutely riding the public.
    Just for haw-haws I looked up insurance for a 1998 Integra in Deutschland.
    It came in starting at €253.

    405789.png

    This is 3rd party only, but I think it's very telling that Irish insurers are taking advantage of a confined market and are gouging the public.
    My guess, the cheap prices were to eliminate the competition and then they could really turn the thumbscrews.
    The problem is, politicians (who like to portray a bit of a thick gombeen act to the public) are very well clued in on the whole situation and probably have said "just throw us some envelopes every now and then and for that you can ride the Irish public silly"
    And that would probably not be the only situation where this is happening in Ireland.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/aig-urges-ban-on-whiplash-claims-to-cut-premiums-1.2548667%3Fmode%3Damp

    The insurance market is heavily driven by claims costs.

    If we are paying up to 500% higher for compensation claims than our EU counterparts then is it not logical that the insurance will cost more?

    You simply cannot compare the two markets.

    Even the UK which is similarly priced to over here pay substantially less for claims settlements.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,929 ✭✭✭✭ShadowHearth


    Rod Munch wrote: »
    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/aig-urges-ban-on-whiplash-claims-to-cut-premiums-1.2548667%3Fmode%3Damp

    The insurance market is heavily driven by claims costs.

    If we are paying up to 500% higher for compensation claims than our EU counterparts then is it not logical that the insurance will cost more?

    You simply cannot compare the two markets.

    Even the UK which is similarly priced to over here pay substantially less for claims settlements.

    That's the thing. They need to start camping payouts amd have system. Judges are a lot to blame for this bull.
    A tip in carpark. There are not even a scratch on car. 3 people whiplash and all take away 15k each without needing to prove anything.

    Cap payouts.
    Make insurance fraud very heavy criminal offence.

    Done.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,108 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    This is 3rd party only.
    The daft prices I've been quoted are for third party fire and theft. I'm not even getting fully comp at nearly three grand per annum. Last year when I was taken roughly from behind by Irish Insurance I looked up what it would cost me throughout the EU and not one country I checked - and I went through 5 or 6 - was going to cost me more than 900 euro and that was France IIRC and the highest even there.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,108 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Rod Munch wrote: »
    The insurance market is heavily driven by claims costs.

    If we are paying up to 500% higher for compensation claims than our EU counterparts then is it not logical that the insurance will cost more?

    You simply cannot compare the two markets.

    Even the UK which is similarly priced to over here pay substantially less for claims settlements.
    Which is all fine and dandy and I can understand that, but how can quotes for the exact same driver with the exact same car and the exact same cover differ so wildly? Double sometimes triple isn't that unusual. And how can a guy with full licence, NCB in his mid thirties driving a Saab be the same "risk" as a Porsche driver in his fifties(I double the risk apparently). Never mind the difference an extra 12 months on a reg plate can make. Insurable on the 31st of Dec, uninsurable on the 1st of Jan. How do compensation claims plug into that then?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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