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Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

12467…186

Comments

  • #152
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,753 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »
    Isn't there also an issue around cargo loads, and the potential for cargo revenues?

    I'd also just wonder about what might be termed the comparative analysis.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_busiest_airports_by_international_passenger_traffic

    Dublin is the 27th busiest international airport by international passenger traffic. Every other airport on that top thirty list has a runway of at least 3,000m. Some, like Munich, have a 4,000m runway.

    I just can't shake that feeling that we might be missing something.

    we're also the only one without a fixed rail connection to our airport with the exception of Mallorca


  • #153
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,753 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    owenc wrote: »
    Its actually not irrelevant.

    People here will NOT travel to Dublin for a flight unless it is international LONG HAUL

    Incorrect northerners travel to Dublin to access a whole host of European destinations, even as close as Barcelona and Paris. Keep in mind Ryanair no longer operates from Belfast at all.


  • #154
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,929 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    owenc wrote: »
    Many of those customers will be repeat or even triple customers. Most of those customers will be flying long haul and a majority of those customers will be from County Down.

    Do you spend a lot of time on the M1 giving survey's to passing Northern reg cars by any chance?

    There are 3 very definite statements there that I would love to see backed up by actual data. Especially considering that you live "miles and miles from Dublin", and "60 mile's from Belfast"


  • #155
    lord lucan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,577 ✭✭✭lord lucan


    owenc wrote: »
    Many of those customers will be repeat or even triple customers. Most of those customers will be flying long haul and a majority of those customers will be from County Down.

    I work in T2 at DUB and meet many of those travelling through every day and can quite honestly say i've met many from all parts of NI. Some tell you where they're from and how long it took to get down and their reasons for using DUB. For some it's the variety of routes,and you'll see as many on the bucket and spade routes as long haul,and some it's economic. Despite the extra cost of travelling down south the cost often still comes in under what it would cost ex-Belfast due to the APD.


  • #156
    lord lucan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,577 ✭✭✭lord lucan


    IrishAir98 wrote: »
    You are by far the most idiotic person I've met on this website. You say that Northern Irish residents only use Dublin Airport for Long Haul and they only use BFS and BHD for short haul because Dublin is too far away? What kind of utter nonsense is going through your head?! I live in the most North-Western part of Donegal and I can safely say most of the people here will choose Dublin over Belfast any day. Even though it's an extra hours drive Dublin has a much more variety of destinations than any of the Belfast airports Short Haul and Long Haul.

    I see you're new to Boards,please read the Forum Charter near the top of the forum. One of its key points is 'attack the post,not the poster'.


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  • #157
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    lord lucan wrote: »
    I work in T2 at DUB and meet many of those travelling through every day and can quite honestly say i've met many from all parts of NI. Some tell you where they're from and how long it took to get down and their reasons for using DUB. For some it's the variety of routes,and you'll see as many on the bucket and spade routes as long haul,and some it's economic. Despite the extra cost of travelling down south the cost often still comes in under what it would cost ex-Belfast due to the APD.

    Oh really? Well I was under the impression that most people here don't use Dublin airport because of how far away it is. I've only met one person who has used for short haul and that person said she would never make that journey ever again.


  • #158
    cgcsb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,753 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    owenc wrote: »
    Oh really? Well I was under the impression that most people here don't use Dublin airport because of how far away it is. I've only met one person who has used for short haul and that person said she would never make that journey ever again.

    That is anecdotal at best. Your earlier statement was that 'nobody' in NI uses DUB for short haul, when statistics show a growing number of passengers at DUB coming from NI.


  • #159
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,183 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    owenc wrote: »
    Oh really? Well I was under the impression that most people here don't use Dublin airport because of how far away it is. I've only met one person who has used for short haul and that person said she would never make that journey ever again.

    There are 1.8m people living in NI. How many have you asked? Even if its everyone you know, it's not a representative sample of the population of NI. This is why it's been pointed out to you that the number of people from NI actually travelling through DUB proves that you are incorrect.


  • #160
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    The regulator have increased the runway cap from 23.5 to 25 million


  • #161
    Razor44
    Registered Users Posts: 658 ✭✭✭Razor44


    Cause god forbid theyd actually have to let the runway be built.


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  • #162
    jamo2oo9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,780 ✭✭✭jamo2oo9


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    The regulator have increased the runway cap from 23.5 to 25 million

    Does that mean the runway can only be built once we hit 25m ppa?


  • #163
    Razor44
    Registered Users Posts: 658 ✭✭✭Razor44


    Afaik yes.it would have to exceed 25m


  • #164
    jamo2oo9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,780 ✭✭✭jamo2oo9


    Razor44 wrote: »
    Afaik yes.it would have to exceed 25m

    Is there any reason as to why they have upped the limit?


  • #165
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    jamo2oo9 wrote: »
    Is there any reason as to why they have upped the limit?

    They are proposing to cut charges by 22% between 2015-2019.

    Have a look at the proposals:
    http://www.aviationreg.ie/_fileupload/2014-05-29%20Draft%20Determination%20Airport%20Charges.pdf


  • #166
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,919 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Just to be clear - this is a draft determination on Dublin Airport charges that is currently out for review and comment - it has not been signed off yet.

    The full document is here:
    http://www.aviationreg.ie/news/commission-publishes-draft-determination-on-dublin-airport-charges-2015-2019.661.html

    Here is the proposed capital investment programme for Dublin Airport for the period 2015-2019:
    http://www.aviationreg.ie/_fileupload/2014-05-29%20DAA%20Capital%20Investment%20Proposals.pdf


  • #167
    jamo2oo9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,780 ✭✭✭jamo2oo9


    Reducing the passenger charge could potentially bring in more PAX as the flights would be cheaper and they would be more inclined to fly out of Dublin.. They say in the report that it could be 2019 before we hit 24mppa. Could be up to 2020's before the runway would be breaking ground!?


  • #168
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Just to be clear - this is a draft determination on Dublin Airport charges that is currently out for review and comment - it has not been signed off yet.

    The full document is here:
    http://www.aviationreg.ie/news/commission-publishes-draft-determination-on-dublin-airport-charges-2015-2019.661.html

    Here is the proposed capital investment programme for Dublin Airport for the period 2015-2019:
    http://www.aviationreg.ie/_fileupload/2014-05-29%20DAA%20Capital%20Investment%20Proposals.pdf

    Very little usually changes but expcet daa will want less of a charges reduction however 25m for runway won't change and tbh with better use of current runway there is no reason why it should be a problem.


  • #169
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    How is this supposed to square with the draft National Aviation Policy?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90507226&postcount=1

    In particular, the strategic importance of Dublin Airport extends far beyond its geographic catchment area and its future is critically bound up with the Irish economy e.g. inward investment, tourism, trade etc. This strategic importance is also reflected in the nature and extent of the competition that Dublin Airport faces. <...>

    Many of the respondents considered that Dublin Airport is the only airport in the State which could be described as critical to national business and tourism needs. It handles 80% of all passengers into and out of the State and 85% of air freight. <....>

    To ensure future connectivity and to deliver growth, it will be important that the State airports, Dublin in particular, have runways of sufficient length to enable services to operate to global emerging markets without weight restriction.<...> By 2025, 136 new cities are expected to enter the world‘s top 600, all of them in the developing world and overwhelmingly in China.

    Using current aircraft fleets, it is not possible to reach many of these top cities from the existing runway at Dublin Airport.<...> Dublin Airport is constrained as a result of it not having a parallel runway. Both Shannon and Cork Airports have considerable scope to increase passenger numbers with their existing infrastructure<...>Dublin Airport has secured the land needed for such a runway. While planning permission has already been secured by the DAA for the project, this may need to be revisited to take account of any future Government decisions on a second runway following the outcome of the infrastructure/capacity review that DAA will be required to carry out in 2015.


  • #170
    RonanM123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 120 ✭✭RonanM123


    Just on the second link in Lxflyer post, what airlines are they trying to move out of Terminal 2 to Terminal 1 at peak times. Would I be correct to assume Etihad and possibly Emirates?? Surly they can't expect US carriers to check in in T1 and clear USPC in T2?


  • #171
    jamo2oo9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,780 ✭✭✭jamo2oo9


    RonanM123 wrote: »
    Just on the second link in Lxflyer post, what airlines are they trying to move out of Terminal 2 to Terminal 1 at peak times. Would I be correct to assume Etihad and possibly Emirates?? Surly they can't expect US carriers to check in in T1 and clear USPC in T2?

    I believe they can't move Emirates due to the aircraft they use (B777) as it won't fit in T1. Could be wrong though?


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  • #172
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,183 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Very little usually changes but expcet daa will want less of a charges reduction however 25m for runway won't change and tbh with better use of current runway there is no reason why it should be a problem.

    Doesn't the current runway badly need to be rebuilt?


  • #173
    Jhcx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,776 ✭✭✭Jhcx


    I think some European Aer lingus flights could be moved to T1 as most of the ques are from Aer lingus side. Would help ease capacity. problem is its just the morning. theres plenty of check in space in the afternoons


  • #174
    notharrypotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭notharrypotter


    How is this supposed to square with the draft National Aviation Policy?

    The draft National Aviation Policy is exactly that. A draft of what the Government might like.

    CAR is the economic regulator and deals with the here and now.

    Its remit is to ensure that the dominant position of the DAA is not translated into abuse of the market.


  • #175
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,754 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Jhcx wrote: »
    I think some European Aer lingus flights could be moved to T1 as most of the ques are from Aer lingus side. Would help ease capacity. problem is its just the morning. theres plenty of check in space in the afternoons

    Is it the queue's that are the problem or all the check in desks not being staffed enough at peak times?

    I can't see it happening TBH, T2 was built for them primarily.


  • #176
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    What's wrong with bussing people from say the West Apron? Don't see that practice much anymore except at CDG for CityJet, for instance.


  • #177
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    notharrypotter wrote: »
    The draft National Aviation Policy is exactly that. A draft of what the Government might like.

    CAR is the economic regulator and deals with the here and now.

    Its remit is to ensure that the dominant position of the DAA is not translated into abuse of the market.
    Grand, but there's a strategic interest at stake here. It would be rather silly for the regulator to see no problem in lumping Shannon's debts onto Dublin Airport users, while baulking at the prospect of an increase in fees funding an expansion in service.

    There's no clear justification for moving the goalposts in the regulator's draft determination. It's a very strange move on their part. Interesting to see if it changes in the final version.


  • #178
    Bessarion
    Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭Bessarion


    Jhcx wrote: »
    I think some European Aer lingus flights could be moved to T1 as most of the ques are from Aer lingus side. Would help ease capacity. problem is its just the morning. theres plenty of check in space in the afternoons

    Aer Lingus already do this. There can be half a dozen EI aircraft on Pier B for the early departure wave.


  • #179
    Jhcx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,776 ✭✭✭Jhcx


    Bessarion wrote: »
    Aer Lingus already do this. There can be half a dozen EI aircraft on Pier B for the early departure wave.

    No actual check in. not gates


  • #180
    Jhcx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,776 ✭✭✭Jhcx


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Is it the queue's that are the problem or all the check in desks not being staffed enough at peak times?

    I can't see it happening TBH, T2 was built for them primarily.

    Both. the lack of investment in Screens on the floor and having all counters bag drop. The day has come and gone where people need to be checking in at the desk. It still doesnt solve the problem but it should shorten que times at the counter. Having people who only have carryon gone from the que and the agent simply needs to add a bag to the PNR. granted you will always have people wishing to chop and change seats.

    Was it. from what ive heard they asked for it to be specifically theirs. But its become a mess. In T1 You have area 14 no longer touched. and then only half the desks are used upstairs. plenty of room for EI to move some. Specially at peak times in the morning. evening T2 is all theirs


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  • #181
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    Some interesting proposals there, including the tweaking of Pier B (an extra jet bridge for an upper deck) to accommodate A380 ops. It also says Emirates are interested in using the whale.

    Another is the widening of the apron immediately west of Pier B to allow ATRs etc to be nearer to Pier E. There are also plans for both minor alterations to taxiways for larger more cumbersome a/c, but the A380 is not specifically mentioned, as well as provision for more hold points at either end of the east-west runway - I'd welcome this especially as the knot of tarmac at the intersection of 16/34 and 10/28 doesn't strike oneself as being efficiently used. An extension to 10/28 (on which end - asssuming the West end - I'm not sure) is also in there, approx. 380m + taxiway tie ins.

    A bus facility on the south side of T2 is also proposed, and it strikes of more short sightedness and would only add to the all-over-the-gaff nature of the airport at the minute, IMO.

    And here's an interesting shape the airport could take in a few decades...

    309310.JPG


  • #182
    billie1b
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,816 ✭✭✭billie1b


    donvito99 wrote: »
    Some interesting proposals there, including the tweaking of Pier B (an extra jet bridge for an upper deck) to accommodate A380 ops. It also says Emirates are interested in using the whale.

    Another is the widening of the apron immediately west of Pier B to allow ATRs etc to be nearer to Pier E. There are also plans for both minor alterations to taxiways for larger more cumbersome a/c, but the A380 is not specifically mentioned, as well as provision for more hold points at either end of the east-west runway - I'd welcome this especially as the knot of tarmac at the intersection of 16/34 and 10/28 doesn't strike oneself as being efficiently used. An extension to 10/28 (on which end - asssuming the West end - I'm not sure) is also in there, approx. 380m + taxiway tie ins.

    A bus facility on the south side of T2 is also proposed, and it strikes of more short sightedness and would only add to the all-over-the-gaff nature of the airport at the minute, IMO.

    And here's an interesting shape the airport could take in a few decades...

    309310.JPG

    Picture isn't th greatest on my phone, whats the little Apron thing across from start of RWY10


  • #183
    jamo2oo9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,780 ✭✭✭jamo2oo9


    billie1b wrote: »
    Picture isn't th greatest on my phone, whats the little Apron thing across from start of RWY10

    Could be remote parking for aircraft


  • #184
    billie1b
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,816 ✭✭✭billie1b


    jamo2oo9 wrote: »
    Could be remote parking for aircraft

    Extremely remote, its nearly in Kilshane Cross :D


  • #185
    BonkeyDonker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 571 ✭✭✭BonkeyDonker


    jamo2oo9 wrote: »
    Could be remote parking for aircraft

    Airline maintnenace or perhaps cargo as there appears to be hangar/building included in the drawing.


  • #186
    dubdaymo
    Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭dubdaymo


    If the DAA had been allowed to build this there would have been no landings at DUB between Nov 2013 and Feb 2014.


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  • #187
    jamo2oo9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,780 ✭✭✭jamo2oo9


    dubdaymo wrote: »
    If the DAA had been allowed to build this there would have been no landings at DUB between Nov 2013 and Feb 2014.

    Why?


  • #188
    dubdaymo
    Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭dubdaymo


    Why?

    Clue. Something very important which is indispensable and was used extensively during that period has been taken out!


  • #189
    jamo2oo9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,780 ✭✭✭jamo2oo9


    dubdaymo wrote: »
    Why?

    Clue. Something very important which is indispensable and was used extensively during that period has been taken out!

    There is still another runway to use, 34/16. Although it wouldn't be efficient for ME and US carriers, they can still use 34/16 runway. What would be done on 28/10? Renovation? Extension or what? :confused:


  • #190
    Razor44
    Registered Users Posts: 658 ✭✭✭Razor44


    yeah what's the deal with getting rid of the crosswind runway? i know alot of major airports dont have them, ie LHR but is it a good idea for the DAA?


  • #191
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    jamo2oo9 wrote: »
    There is still another runway to use, 34/16. Although it wouldn't be efficient for ME and US carriers, they can still use 34/16 runway. What would be done on 28/10? Renovation? Extension or what? :confused:

    I think he's talking about 16/34..I don't know, my head isn't right today :p


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  • #192
    bombs away
    Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭bombs away


    Runways are expensive to maintain, that said I don't think it would be a good idea to get rid of 16/34 considering it was used an awful lot over the winter.


  • #193
    dubdaymo
    Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭dubdaymo


    jamo2oo9 wrote: »
    There is still another runway to use, 34/16. Although it wouldn't be efficient for ME and US carriers, they can still use 34/16 runway.
    Did you look at the map? There is no more 16/34 on that map. It has been built over.


  • #194
    jamo2oo9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,780 ✭✭✭jamo2oo9


    dubdaymo wrote: »
    Did you look at the map? There is no more 16/34 on that map. It has been built over.

    Yes, but it won't be decommissioned once they start breaking ground for the new runway. They'll probably start working on the new parallel runway and once it's finished, they will start repairing the old 28/10 runway and then eventually, decommission 34/16. Do note that the Piers C and E won't be built during the construction of the runway. AFAIK, they don't have planning permission to build the new piers yet?


    Sometimes it's nice to have a back-up runway in case something happens on 28/10. I don't think there's any harm in keeping the 34/16 in operation throughout the construction of the parallel runway?


  • #195
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,919 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I think that the point he's trying to make to you is parallel runway or not, the crosswind runway proved invaluable earlier this year, and neither of the two parallel runways would have been much use as they were in the wrong direction.

    In other words - keep three operational runways including a crosswind option.

    I'd have to say I would concur.


  • #196
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Runway 16-34 will remain a critical piece of infrastructure until the opening of the North Parallel
    Runway. The runway is used for dual operations each morning and is critical in keeping the airport
    open when work is required on the main Runway 10-28. A structural survey carried out in 2013
    indicated that extensive structural rehabilitation will be required over the next 5 years in order to
    keep this critical asset serviceable.
    Expected to start in 2018 and end in 2020

    10/28 extension to 3000m: 2017-2019.

    Parallel runway: Construction triggered at 25m passengers pa. 36 months for construction.

    The regulator's forecast say DUB won't reach 25m ppa until after 2020 and while most people would say that's pessimistic, it's irrelevant. I doubt they'll be carrying out a 10/28 extension, 16/34 paving rehabilitation and building 10L/28R all at the same time. Meaning even if passenger figures hit 25m, the runway won't really break ground until 2021.

    Or am I being too pessimistic?
    In 2009 CAR set the trigger for initiating the Northern Runway project at traffic in excess of
    23.5m passengers in any consecutive 12 Month period before 2015. Since 2008, the profile
    of departing flights has changed with 20% of PAX now departing in the 06.00 and 07.00 slots
    compared to 18% in 2008 and 15% in 2006. This change in departure-time profile means that
    there is a higher concentration of departing aircraft in the early morning peak today, than
    in 2008, which represented the profile from which the existing trigger was set.

    Which begs the question, why change the trigger to 25m?
    daa submitted a planning application to Fingal County Council in December 2004, and
    planning permission for a new North Runway was finally granted by An Bord Pleanála in
    August 2007. However, some of the conditions attached to this permission are highly
    restrictive from an airfield operations point of view, particularly the inability to use the
    new runway between 23:00 and 07:00, while restricting the total number of aircraft
    movements between these hours to 65 daily movements averaged over a 3-month period.
    There are currently no restrictions on night-time aircraft movements, while the peak
    departure wave is between 06:00 and 07:00
    Nice to see ABP being as useless as ever..

    What happened to changing the proposal to 3660m? It was in the 2009 CIP.


  • #197
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    paulmcgrath wrote: »
    Surely at that price its simply not worth it.

    Would the money not be better pumped into Shannon / Belfast / Cork / Galway for improvements?

    I would be happier seeing our national rail network get a total revamp. God knows it's 50 years out of date.

    I'm still waiting for Casement to be turned into a proper westside airport - it would mean people wouldn't have to drive through Dublin city at all, and from a selfish point of view, I wouldn't have to get up at six to get a 10am flight, living as I do in the south of the city.


  • #198
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭markpb


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    I'm still waiting for Casement to be turned into a proper westside airport - it would mean people wouldn't have to drive through Dublin city at all, and from a selfish point of view, I wouldn't have to get up at six to get a 10am flight, living as I do in the south of the city.

    The chances of a much smaller, second airport having a flight to where you want to go would be very small.


  • #199
    Qualitymark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    markpb wrote: »
    The chances of a much smaller, second airport having a flight to where you want to go would be very small.

    Oh, I don't know; Shannon does ok.


  • #200
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    based on 8% per annum compound growth based on 20,200,000 (2013 figure) we would hit that number at the end of 2016 it would be 25,5 million... It would be good if the cork route was reinstated, would speed things up...


  • #201
    Aphex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 653 ✭✭✭Aphex


    Qualitymark wrote: »
    I'm still waiting for Casement to be turned into a proper westside airport - it would mean people wouldn't have to drive through Dublin city at all, and from a selfish point of view, I wouldn't have to get up at six to get a 10am flight, living as I do in the south of the city.

    Where are you living? The south of Cork?

    Why drive through the city? You do know that you can get off the M50 less than 5 minutes away from Dublin Airport?


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