Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

TheFitz13

Dublin Airport has planning permission to build a new parallel runway to the north of the existing main runway. The Regulator has determined that this new runway can only be funded by airport users when annual passenger volumes through Dublin Airport reach 23.5 million. Annualised passenger numbers in 2012 will be in the region of 19 million and current forecasts indicate that the 23.5 million target for bringing a new runway into operation, will be reached in or about 2019. What do you all think?

seanmacc

Build it now and actually have a piece of infrastructure ready to go at a time when we actually need it.

We had to wait for Dublin to come to a standstill before the M50, Port Tunnel and Luas were built. Why are we so allergic to forward planning here?

If we build the runway the planes will come.

TheFitz13

seanmacc wrote: »

Build it now and actually have a piece of infrastructure ready to go at a time when we actually need it.

We had to wait for Dublin to come to a standstill before the M50, Port Tunnel and Luas were built. Why are we so allergic to forward planning here?

If we build the runway the planes will come.

YES! exactly! (BTW this thread is from an email the DAA sent me). The DAA are too lazy to get off their backside to do anything with the runway and this is a good excuse for them hate the DAA :mad:

Tenger

TheFitz13 wrote: »

YES! exactly! (BTW this thread is from an email the DAA sent me). The DAA are too lazy to get off their backside to do anything with the runway and this is a good excuse for them hate the DAA :mad:

Somehow I doubt the DAA (or any company) will reverse their position based on an internet forum post.....

TheFitz13

Tenger wrote: »

Somehow I doubt the DAA (or any company) will reverse their position based on an internet forum post.....

Yeah obviously....... they need to expand the taxiways aswell.........

paulmcgrath

How much would a new runway cost?

Roughly speaking?

TheFitz13

In calling for a costbenefit analysis of the new runway proposal UPROAR has argued that the publicly
owned land to be used for the runway (840 acres) and additional Inner Safety Zone
land where no development can take place, should be valued at market opportunity
cost, which would be from €1 million to €2 million per acre1

http://www.aviationreg.ie/_fileupload/Image/ER_AC_PortmarnockRes_Assoc_Valuing_Dublin_Airport_Response_CP1_2007_ALL.pdf

Kumsheen

TheFitz13 wrote: »

Dublin Airport has planning permission to build a new parallel runway to the north of the existing main runway. The Regulator has determined that this new runway can only be funded by airport users when annual passenger volumes through Dublin Airport reach 23.5 million. Annualised passenger numbers in 2012 will be in the region of 19 million and current forecasts indicate that the 23.5 million target for bringing a new runway into operation, will be reached in or about 2019. What do you all think?

Michael O'Leary will do his best to ensure that this does not happen. Ryanair will not accept a penny in increased charges to pay for it, in fact they want to pay a lot less than they are currently doing.

Unless Emirates or someone else come up with the dosh, i can't see a second runway happening in under 10 years.

TheFitz13

paulmcgrath wrote: »

How much would a new runway cost?

Roughly speaking?

In calling for a costbenefit analysis of the new runway proposal UPROAR has argued that the publicly
owned land to be used for the runway (840 acres) and additional Inner Safety Zone
land where no development can take place, should be valued at market opportunity
cost, which would be from €1 million to €2 million per acre1

http://www.aviationreg.ie/_fileupload/Image/ER_AC_PortmarnockRes_Assoc_Valuing_Dublin_Airport_Response_CP1_2007_ALL.pdf

paulmcgrath

TheFitz13 wrote: »

In calling for a costbenefit analysis of the new runway proposal UPROAR has argued that the publicly
owned land to be used for the runway (840 acres) and additional Inner Safety Zone
land where no development can take place, should be valued at market opportunity
cost, which would be from €1 million to €2 million per acre1

http://www.aviationreg.ie/_fileupload/Image/ER_AC_PortmarnockRes_Assoc_Valuing_Dublin_Airport_Response_CP1_2007_ALL.pdf

Surely at that price its simply not worth it.

Would the money not be better pumped into Shannon / Belfast / Cork / Galway for improvements?

I would be happier seeing our national rail network get a total revamp. God knows it's 50 years out of date.

seanmacc

paulmcgrath wrote: »

How much would a new runway cost?

Roughly speaking?

Heathrow built one for £10bn, but then again they had little space, more NIMBY's and alot more land to aquire.

I'd say Dublin would probably do well to get change out of 2bn euro.

TheFitz13

seanmacc wrote: »

Heathrow built one for £10bn, but then again they had little space, more NIMBY's and alot more land to aquire.

I'd say Dublin would probably do well to get change out of 2bn euro.

Remember its gonna be 3660m :)

paulmcgrath

seanmacc wrote: »

Heathrow built one for £10bn, but then again they had little space, more NIMBY's and alot more land to aquire.

I'd say Dublin would probably do well to get change out of 2bn euro.

At that price its simply not worth it.

that money would be better spent putting 1bn into the rail network. having rail stations at belfast, dublin, cork, shannon, galway.

and putting the other billion into those airports for improvment.

thats what should be done. but i doubt the iaa, daa, dept trans etc have ideas like this.

McWotever

€2bn? I'm sure your estimation is based on some fact and I actually don't doubt that figure, but how can a strip of road (runway), service roads (taxiways) and the land to go with it cost that much?

I know a runway is more than just a road in its physical construction, but how does it cost that much?

TheFitz13

i wouldnt of thought that much... 2 billion euro.... really??

munchkin_utd

TheFitz13 wrote: »

i wouldnt of thought that much... 2 billion euro.... really??

you could build a tidy new airport somewhere a bit further out of the city for that amount. And fund it from selling off the old airport lands.

Sure if the land near the airport is so valuable that its worth a million an acre I am POSITIVE that the portmarnock residents that are objecting to the runway would much prefer that land beside them to be turned into a vast tract of estates than being retained as a 1million an acre safety zone.

It would be a waste not to allow it to be put to its full (1 million+ an acre) use.

TheFitz13

If its between 1m and 2m euro an acre for 840 acres.... thats roughly lets say 900m euro..... do the DAA have the money?

seanmacc

TheFitz13 wrote: »

If its between 1m and 2m euro an acre for 840 acres.... thats roughly lets say 900m euro..... do the DAA have the money?

The European Investment Bank does though.

TheFitz13

seanmacc wrote: »

The European Investment Bank does though.

i guess..... Which airlines would operate if it goes ahead do you think?

seanmacc

McWotever wrote: »

€2bn? I'm sure your estimation is based on some fact and I actually don't doubt that figure, but how can a strip of road (runway), service roads (taxiways) and the land to go with it cost that much?

I know a runway is more than just a road in its physical construction, but how does it cost that much?

I heard a 1.3bn figure thrown about a few years ago (Celtic Tiger times) but in Ireland we have to allow for projects to go way over budget. Look at Luas, M50, Port Tunnell, Terminal 2.

During construction a lot of exceptional cost occurs that only gets accounted for near the end of completion like discounting to airlines for operational F ups due to construction.

TheFitz13

BTW i heard air asia X are considering coming to DUB regardless of the runway or not...... once they get their A350'S

Jamie2k9

Dublin Airport has planning permission to build a new parallel runway to the north of the existing main runway. The Regulator has determined that this new runway can only be funded by airport users when annual passenger volumes through Dublin Airport reach 23.5 million. Annualised passenger numbers in 2012 will be in the region of 19 million and current forecasts indicate that the 23.5 million target for bringing a new runway into operation, will be reached in or about 2019. What do you all think?

2019 is a big ask to reach 23.5 million passengers again, it will be close but I would say at least 1 or 2 years after that.

Between Jan and April this year passenger numbers are up by 140,000, I would expect around 19.5 this year, there should be good growth between now and October, not sure after that as not much confirmed.

urajoke

2 billion = rubbish

I wouldn't base anything on info gleaned from NIMBYs who most likely have inflated figures to suit their cause.

Remember most of the land is already owned by the DAA namely 11/29. Most of the safety zones are already covered by law and policies in place years. The cost of land has fallen dramatically as well.

It's the cost of the physical building works that will determine the final cost.

The DAA have been planning for this runway for years and have plans in place to by the land and have done so in the main.

markpb

paulmcgrath wrote: »

Surely at that price its simply not worth it.

Would the money not be better pumped into Shannon / Belfast / Cork / Galway for improvements?

I would be happier seeing our national rail network get a total revamp. God knows it's 50 years out of date.

If it will be paid for out of passenger/airline fees, saying the rail network should get the money instead is like comparing apples and oranges. There's no money, just debt which will be paid back by passengers like T2 is today.

urajoke

Dublin airport brings in huge amounts of money into the economy more than most people understand. To suggest taking money that would be an investment that would be paid off and burn it in the rail network that would never return the investment (western rail corridor) is ludicrous.

Any money should be wisely invested. Not frittered away on the pipe dreams of enthusiasts.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

urajoke wrote: »

Dublin airport brings in huge amounts of money into the economy more than most people understand. To suggest taking money that would be an investment that would be paid off and burn it in the rail network that would never return the investment (western rail corridor) is ludicrous.

Any money should be wisely invested. Not frittered away on the pipe dreams of enthusiasts.

But is it fair to say that the DAA won't be looking for any State funds to build it. They'll be raising their own finance, as they have for their past developments like T2; it's a commercial investment. The issue is just around the Regulator deciding when they could raise charges to pay for it.

It has to be said, the shortness of the Dublin Airport runway is glaring. Is there any other significant airport in Europe (and I mean comparable cities, not LHR or whatever) operating with a runway of less than 3,000 m?

L1011

seanmacc wrote: »

Heathrow built one for £10bn, but then again they had little space, more NIMBY's and alot more land to aquire.

I'd say Dublin would probably do well to get change out of 2bn euro.

I would be astounded if it came even close to a quarter that. Would estimate closer to a tenth myself.

The boomtime estimate was 130m. Land acquisition costs are hugely down and tender prices are now fixed-price, so even if a tender came in higher it would not overrun.

There isn't that much land to acquire at all - 11/29 is to be subsumed so its only a lateral extension from that that needs to be bought

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

It has to be said, the shortness of the Dublin Airport runway is glaring. Is there any other significant airport in Europe (and I mean comparable cities, not LHR or whatever) operating with a runway of less than 3,000 m?

Dublin with a 2600m runway and basically one runway operations the majority of time does not compare well to the rest of the top 25 in Europe at all. None of them have shorter main runways and most have at least a parallel set. Gatwick with actual single runway ops has it beaten on that though.

Peregrine

Where exactly did the €2bn figure come from?

When they were seeking planning permission for a 3km runway that's 45m wide in 2004, the estimate was €130m.

But it was decided to build a runway that's 3.6km and 60m wide..and rightly so. It would cost more but definitely not €2bn.

Jamie2k9

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Where exactly did the €2bn figure come from?

When they were seeking planning permission for a 3km runway that's 45m wide in 2004, the estimate was €130m.

But it was decided to build a runway that's 3.6km and 60m wide..and rightly so. It would cost more but definitely not €2bn.

The 2bn figure was got as the DAA invested that in T2, Pier D and Internal Road Network and other small things.

TheFitz13

It dosent really matter about the cost but when it's finished... It could make Dublin as big as Munich or Barajas (Madrid)........ Maybe even schipol (doubt it though)

rainbowdash

It would surely make more sense to upgrade Baldonnell, even if only for budget airlines serving Europe.

It would immediately ease M50 traffic.

It would be accessible for South county Dublin.

It would be easily rail connectable

It would create competition.

It would be much more accessible for Limerick, Cork, Port Laoise etc.,

In the event of an incident/ accident / weather event at one airport the other may still be operable.

The government could sell it to a private operator, generating a big windfall.

L1011

Upgrading Baldonnel still leaves EIDW without a runway capable of taking larger planes. They're not going to want to go to the budget-port.

There wouldn't be a big windfall either. An undeveloped airport does not sell for much and then we'd have to start funding landing fees, etc, for the air corps from the current account.

Peregrine

rainbowdash wrote: »

It would surely make more sense to upgrade Baldonnell, even if only for budget airlines serving Europe.

It would immediately ease M50 traffic.

It would be accessible for South county Dublin.

It would be easily rail connectable

It would create competition.

It would be much more accessible for Limerick, Cork, Port Laoise etc.,

In the event of an incident/ accident / weather event at one airport the other may still be operable.

The government could sell it to a private operator, generating a big windfall.

Dublin's 19m passengers a year isn't enough to justify a second major airport and there's no point in having 2 smaller airports. DUB would still have a small runway.

Also, DUB isn't exactly inaccessible for people from other parts of the country. The M50 and M1 will take you there just fine. DUB can be connected to the rail grid rather well with Metro North. It would serve the whole Northside and Swords while connecting the airport to Dublin city. The best thing a small airport at Baldonnel can get is a Luas extension which takes 45 minutes to get to city centre.

A whole new airport will have to be built at Baldonnel and there are housing estates on 3 sides of the airfield.

Bigcheeze

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

But is it fair to say that the DAA won't be looking for any State funds to build it. They'll be raising their own finance, as they have for their past developments like T2; it's a commercial investment.

There's not much commercial about it when the DAA has a monopoly in the capital city of a small island. Raising airport charges to pay for it is not commercial, that's just a unique monopoly position.

It would be interesting to know what license fee the state could generate by licensing a second airport in the Dublin/Leinster region. That would benefit the state in revenue and benefit the consumer in competition.

rainbowdash

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Dublin's 19m passengers a year isn't enough to justify a second major airport and there's no point in having 2 smaller airports. DUB would still have a small runway.

Also, DUB isn't exactly inaccessible for people from other parts of the country. The M50 and M1 will take you there just fine. DUB can be connected to the rail grid rather well with Metro North. It would serve the whole Northside and Swords while connecting the airport to Dublin city. The best thing a small airport at Baldonnel can get is a Luas extension which takes 45 minutes to get to city centre.

A whole new airport will have to be built at Baldonnel and there are housing estates on 3 sides of the airfield.

Its 23.5M passenger numbers that a new runway is being proposed for, not 19M.

From Limerick to Dublin airport is probably 2 hrs and more, and you need to allow for the M50 and possible chaos on that road which can happen as its pretty saturated. Baldonnel is about 1.5hrs from Limerick, mightn't sound a lot but all of a sudden its just a bit further than Shannon from Limerick.

Baldonnel is about 2kM from the Cork, Limerick and Galway lines to Dublin, so it could be easily rail connected to our 4 biggest cities, especially if a terminal and runway were constructed in the direction of the existing railway line.

Yes a new airport would have to be built but the proposal is 2 billion for a new runway, I am just questioning if a new airport would be logical and cost effective?

Peregrine

rainbowdash wrote: »

Yes a new airport would have to be built but the proposal is 2 billion for a new runway, I am just questioning if a new airport would be logical and cost effective?

It will cost a tenth of 2bn.

The idea has actually been looked at many times. MOL wanted to buy Baldonnel couple of years ago too I think.

L1011

rainbowdash wrote: »

Yes a new airport would have to be built but the proposal is 2 billion for a new runway, I am just questioning if a new airport would be logical and cost effective?

The proposal is not and never has been 2bn for a new runway.

The actual cost would not cover the cost of building passenger facilities at Baldonnel, let alone the local road upgrades required, train stations and transfer buses, etc, that you suggest.

rainbowdash

Sorry, I saw 2 billion mentioned earlier in the thread, I thought that was from a reliable "source" if its only 200m then that's obviously a different matter entirely.

Tenger

TheFitz13 wrote: »

BTW i heard air asia X are considering coming to DUB regardless of the runway or not...... once they get their A350'S

Why would an airline fly into an airport where they were restricted in the max load they could take on their aircraft? AirAsiaX operate on the "pile them high" policy

TheFitz13 wrote: »

It dosent really matter about the cost but when it's finished... It could make Dublin as big as Munich or Barajas (Madrid)........ Maybe even schipol (doubt it though)

No it wouldn't.

donvito99

10/28 will surely have to be repaired/overhauled in the next few years anyway.

TheFitz13

We dont need a new airport or upgrading of baldonnell. we just need a new runway at EIDW that is 3km or more... we also need expanding of the taxiways...... you'd think when they had built the taxiways+runway they would have put a bit of width into them..... God i hate the DAA! >:(

LordSutch

MORE 4 Now!

All about the Vulcan's mission to bomb the airfield in Port Stanley in 1981.

If you're lucky you will get the whole thing on More4 +1 at Midnight.

unkel

TheFitz13 wrote: »

If its between 1m and 2m euro an acre for 840 acres...

For unusable farmland that will never be zoned? That's ridiculous! That figure need to be divided by the guts of a hundred

Jamie2k9

Bigcheeze wrote: »

There's not much commercial about it when the DAA has a monopoly in the capital city of a small island. Raising airport charges to pay for it is not commercial, that's just a unique monopoly position.

It would be interesting to know what license fee the state could generate by licensing a second airport in the Dublin/Leinster region. That would benefit the state in revenue and benefit the consumer in competition.

Most cities have 1 airport which are all monopoly. Dublin charges are like most European airports and below many of them but because people here FR doing big PR about them everything thinks they are correct. They are paying more at other airports than DUB.

Dublin Bus have a monopoly for the city don't see you pointing that out. The world is full of monopoly's so deal with it weather its right or wrong doesn't come into it.

It would surely make more sense to upgrade Baldonnell, even if only for budget airlines serving Europe.

The locals would be delighted having jets flying in all day everyday. Think about what you are suggesting adding to jets going right over Dublin city, the extra fuel burn for a better flight path wouldn't keep loco's there very long.

sparrowcar

TheFitz13 wrote: »

We dont need a new airport or upgrading of baldonnell. we just need a new runway at EIDW that is 3km or more... we also need expanding of the taxiways...... you'd think when they had built the taxiways+runway they would have put a bit of width into them..... God i hate the DAA! >:(

That's twice you've said that now :rolleyes:

Stealthirl

Would it not be a more obvious/cheaper option to extend 10/28 when it is getting redone while also extending taxiways to allow A380 operations in the future ?

Apart from the 77W at MTOW what currant and future AC are limited on 10/28 ?

Jamie2k9

Stealthirl wrote: »

Would it not be a more obvious/cheaper option to extend 10/28 when it is getting redone while also extending taxiways to allow A380 operations in the future ?

Apart from the 77W at MTOW what currant and future AC are limited on 10/28 ?

10/28 will likely be closed once there is a new runway opens for major works to be carried out before it returns to service.

andy_g

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

10/28 will likely be closed once there is a new runway opens for major works to be carried out before it returns to service.

And to be fair it needs to be resurfaced sooner rather than later.

rainbowdash

TheFitz13 wrote: »

We dont need a new airport or upgrading of baldonnell. we just need a new runway at EIDW that is 3km or more... we also need expanding of the taxiways...... you'd think when they had built the taxiways+runway they would have put a bit of width into them..... God i hate the DAA! >:(

If you live in Dublin then that might suit, but if you live in Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Kilkenny etc. etc. then an airport with lots of cheap flights from Baldonnell adjacent to a direct heavy rail link and a relatively uncongested motorway could be extremely advantageous.

Even if you live in south Dublin it would be no further than the existing airport.

TheFitz13

rainbowdash wrote: »

If you live in Dublin then that might suit, but if you live in Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Kilkenny etc. etc. then an airport with lots of cheap flights from Baldonnell adjacent to a direct heavy rail link and a relatively uncongested motorway could be extremely advantageous.

Even if you live in south Dublin it would be no further than the existing airport.

i get where your coming from but whats the point in spending alot of money expandng it (making it into a commerical airport) rather than putting a nice, wide, long runway at EIDW........ (i live beside EIDW and love planespotting....hehe :D)

maybe i IF dublin gets too congested then baldonnel can come into place as a low-cost airport like luton or somthing like that

markpb

rainbowdash wrote: »

If you live in Dublin then that might suit, but if you live in Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Kilkenny etc. etc. then an airport with lots of cheap flights from Baldonnell adjacent to a direct heavy rail link and a relatively uncongested motorway could be extremely advantageous.

Even if you live in south Dublin it would be no further than the existing airport.

Ireland already has more than enough airports without building more of them just so people can feel closer to one. Building a new airport and all its associated infrastructure is expensive and not to be done on a whim.

If nothing else, how much opposition would it face from local residents? It would never happen and while we're talking about it, Dublin Airport would be starved of investment (ot at least starved of the decision to allow them to borrow).