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Dublin Airport New Runway/Infrastructure.

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  • 16-05-2013 3:20pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭TheFitz13


    Dublin Airport has planning permission to build a new parallel runway to the north of the existing main runway. The Regulator has determined that this new runway can only be funded by airport users when annual passenger volumes through Dublin Airport reach 23.5 million. Annualised passenger numbers in 2012 will be in the region of 19 million and current forecasts indicate that the 23.5 million target for bringing a new runway into operation, will be reached in or about 2019. What do you all think?


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭seanmacc


    Build it now and actually have a piece of infrastructure ready to go at a time when we actually need it.

    We had to wait for Dublin to come to a standstill before the M50, Port Tunnel and Luas were built. Why are we so allergic to forward planning here?

    If we build the runway the planes will come.


  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭TheFitz13


    seanmacc wrote: »
    Build it now and actually have a piece of infrastructure ready to go at a time when we actually need it.

    We had to wait for Dublin to come to a standstill before the M50, Port Tunnel and Luas were built. Why are we so allergic to forward planning here?

    If we build the runway the planes will come.


    YES! exactly! (BTW this thread is from an email the DAA sent me). The DAA are too lazy to get off their backside to do anything with the runway and this is a good excuse for them :( hate the DAA :mad:


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    TheFitz13 wrote: »
    YES! exactly! (BTW this thread is from an email the DAA sent me). The DAA are too lazy to get off their backside to do anything with the runway and this is a good excuse for them :( hate the DAA :mad:

    Somehow I doubt the DAA (or any company) will reverse their position based on an internet forum post.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭TheFitz13


    Tenger wrote: »
    Somehow I doubt the DAA (or any company) will reverse their position based on an internet forum post.....

    Yeah obviously....... they need to expand the taxiways aswell.........


  • Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭paulmcgrath


    How much would a new runway cost?

    Roughly speaking?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭TheFitz13


    In calling for a costbenefit analysis of the new runway proposal UPROAR has argued that the publicly
    owned land to be used for the runway (840 acres) and additional Inner Safety Zone
    land where no development can take place, should be valued at market opportunity
    cost, which would be from €1 million to €2 million per acre1

    http://www.aviationreg.ie/_fileupload/Image/ER_AC_PortmarnockRes_Assoc_Valuing_Dublin_Airport_Response_CP1_2007_ALL.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 314 ✭✭Kumsheen


    TheFitz13 wrote: »
    Dublin Airport has planning permission to build a new parallel runway to the north of the existing main runway. The Regulator has determined that this new runway can only be funded by airport users when annual passenger volumes through Dublin Airport reach 23.5 million. Annualised passenger numbers in 2012 will be in the region of 19 million and current forecasts indicate that the 23.5 million target for bringing a new runway into operation, will be reached in or about 2019. What do you all think?

    Michael O'Leary will do his best to ensure that this does not happen. Ryanair will not accept a penny in increased charges to pay for it, in fact they want to pay a lot less than they are currently doing.

    Unless Emirates or someone else come up with the dosh, i can't see a second runway happening in under 10 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭TheFitz13


    How much would a new runway cost?

    Roughly speaking?

    In calling for a costbenefit analysis of the new runway proposal UPROAR has argued that the publicly
    owned land to be used for the runway (840 acres) and additional Inner Safety Zone
    land where no development can take place, should be valued at market opportunity
    cost, which would be from €1 million to €2 million per acre1

    http://www.aviationreg.ie/_fileupload/Image/ER_AC_PortmarnockRes_Assoc_Valuing_Dublin_Airport_Response_CP1_2007_ALL.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭paulmcgrath


    TheFitz13 wrote: »
    In calling for a costbenefit analysis of the new runway proposal UPROAR has argued that the publicly
    owned land to be used for the runway (840 acres) and additional Inner Safety Zone
    land where no development can take place, should be valued at market opportunity
    cost, which would be from €1 million to €2 million per acre1

    http://www.aviationreg.ie/_fileupload/Image/ER_AC_PortmarnockRes_Assoc_Valuing_Dublin_Airport_Response_CP1_2007_ALL.pdf

    Surely at that price its simply not worth it.

    Would the money not be better pumped into Shannon / Belfast / Cork / Galway for improvements?

    I would be happier seeing our national rail network get a total revamp. God knows it's 50 years out of date.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭seanmacc


    How much would a new runway cost?

    Roughly speaking?

    Heathrow built one for £10bn, but then again they had little space, more NIMBY's and alot more land to aquire.

    I'd say Dublin would probably do well to get change out of 2bn euro.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭TheFitz13


    seanmacc wrote: »
    Heathrow built one for £10bn, but then again they had little space, more NIMBY's and alot more land to aquire.

    I'd say Dublin would probably do well to get change out of 2bn euro.

    Remember its gonna be 3660m :):)


  • Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭paulmcgrath


    seanmacc wrote: »
    Heathrow built one for £10bn, but then again they had little space, more NIMBY's and alot more land to aquire.

    I'd say Dublin would probably do well to get change out of 2bn euro.

    At that price its simply not worth it.

    that money would be better spent putting 1bn into the rail network. having rail stations at belfast, dublin, cork, shannon, galway.

    and putting the other billion into those airports for improvment.

    thats what should be done. but i doubt the iaa, daa, dept trans etc have ideas like this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 202 ✭✭McWotever


    €2bn? I'm sure your estimation is based on some fact and I actually don't doubt that figure, but how can a strip of road (runway), service roads (taxiways) and the land to go with it cost that much?

    I know a runway is more than just a road in its physical construction, but how does it cost that much?


  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭TheFitz13


    i wouldnt of thought that much... 2 billion euro.... really??


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,866 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    TheFitz13 wrote: »
    i wouldnt of thought that much... 2 billion euro.... really??
    you could build a tidy new airport somewhere a bit further out of the city for that amount. And fund it from selling off the old airport lands.

    Sure if the land near the airport is so valuable that its worth a million an acre I am POSITIVE that the portmarnock residents that are objecting to the runway would much prefer that land beside them to be turned into a vast tract of estates than being retained as a 1million an acre safety zone.

    It would be a waste not to allow it to be put to its full (1 million+ an acre) use.


  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭TheFitz13


    If its between 1m and 2m euro an acre for 840 acres.... thats roughly lets say 900m euro..... do the DAA have the money?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭seanmacc


    TheFitz13 wrote: »
    If its between 1m and 2m euro an acre for 840 acres.... thats roughly lets say 900m euro..... do the DAA have the money?

    The European Investment Bank does though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭TheFitz13


    seanmacc wrote: »
    The European Investment Bank does though.
    i guess..... Which airlines would operate if it goes ahead do you think?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 771 ✭✭✭seanmacc


    McWotever wrote: »
    €2bn? I'm sure your estimation is based on some fact and I actually don't doubt that figure, but how can a strip of road (runway), service roads (taxiways) and the land to go with it cost that much?

    I know a runway is more than just a road in its physical construction, but how does it cost that much?

    I heard a 1.3bn figure thrown about a few years ago (Celtic Tiger times) but in Ireland we have to allow for projects to go way over budget. Look at Luas, M50, Port Tunnell, Terminal 2.

    During construction a lot of exceptional cost occurs that only gets accounted for near the end of completion like discounting to airlines for operational F ups due to construction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭TheFitz13


    BTW i heard air asia X are considering coming to DUB regardless of the runway or not...... once they get their A350'S :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,694 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Dublin Airport has planning permission to build a new parallel runway to the north of the existing main runway. The Regulator has determined that this new runway can only be funded by airport users when annual passenger volumes through Dublin Airport reach 23.5 million. Annualised passenger numbers in 2012 will be in the region of 19 million and current forecasts indicate that the 23.5 million target for bringing a new runway into operation, will be reached in or about 2019. What do you all think?

    2019 is a big ask to reach 23.5 million passengers again, it will be close but I would say at least 1 or 2 years after that.

    Between Jan and April this year passenger numbers are up by 140,000, I would expect around 19.5 this year, there should be good growth between now and October, not sure after that as not much confirmed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 722 ✭✭✭urajoke


    2 billion = rubbish

    I wouldn't base anything on info gleaned from NIMBYs who most likely have inflated figures to suit their cause.

    Remember most of the land is already owned by the DAA namely 11/29. Most of the safety zones are already covered by law and policies in place years. The cost of land has fallen dramatically as well.

    It's the cost of the physical building works that will determine the final cost.

    The DAA have been planning for this runway for years and have plans in place to by the land and have done so in the main.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,279 ✭✭✭markpb


    Surely at that price its simply not worth it.

    Would the money not be better pumped into Shannon / Belfast / Cork / Galway for improvements?

    I would be happier seeing our national rail network get a total revamp. God knows it's 50 years out of date.

    If it will be paid for out of passenger/airline fees, saying the rail network should get the money instead is like comparing apples and oranges. There's no money, just debt which will be paid back by passengers like T2 is today.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 722 ✭✭✭urajoke


    Dublin airport brings in huge amounts of money into the economy more than most people understand. To suggest taking money that would be an investment that would be paid off and burn it in the rail network that would never return the investment (western rail corridor) is ludicrous.

    Any money should be wisely invested. Not frittered away on the pipe dreams of enthusiasts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    urajoke wrote: »
    Dublin airport brings in huge amounts of money into the economy more than most people understand. To suggest taking money that would be an investment that would be paid off and burn it in the rail network that would never return the investment (western rail corridor) is ludicrous.

    Any money should be wisely invested. Not frittered away on the pipe dreams of enthusiasts.
    But is it fair to say that the DAA won't be looking for any State funds to build it. They'll be raising their own finance, as they have for their past developments like T2; it's a commercial investment. The issue is just around the Regulator deciding when they could raise charges to pay for it.

    It has to be said, the shortness of the Dublin Airport runway is glaring. Is there any other significant airport in Europe (and I mean comparable cities, not LHR or whatever) operating with a runway of less than 3,000 m?


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,505 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    seanmacc wrote: »
    Heathrow built one for £10bn, but then again they had little space, more NIMBY's and alot more land to aquire.

    I'd say Dublin would probably do well to get change out of 2bn euro.

    I would be astounded if it came even close to a quarter that. Would estimate closer to a tenth myself.

    The boomtime estimate was 130m. Land acquisition costs are hugely down and tender prices are now fixed-price, so even if a tender came in higher it would not overrun.

    There isn't that much land to acquire at all - 11/29 is to be subsumed so its only a lateral extension from that that needs to be bought
    It has to be said, the shortness of the Dublin Airport runway is glaring. Is there any other significant airport in Europe (and I mean comparable cities, not LHR or whatever) operating with a runway of less than 3,000 m?

    Dublin with a 2600m runway and basically one runway operations the majority of time does not compare well to the rest of the top 25 in Europe at all. None of them have shorter main runways and most have at least a parallel set. Gatwick with actual single runway ops has it beaten on that though.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Where exactly did the €2bn figure come from?

    When they were seeking planning permission for a 3km runway that's 45m wide in 2004, the estimate was €130m.

    But it was decided to build a runway that's 3.6km and 60m wide..and rightly so. It would cost more but definitely not €2bn.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,694 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Nimrod 7 wrote: »
    Where exactly did the €2bn figure come from?

    When they were seeking planning permission for a 3km runway that's 45m wide in 2004, the estimate was €130m.

    But it was decided to build a runway that's 3.6km and 60m wide..and rightly so. It would cost more but definitely not €2bn.

    The 2bn figure was got as the DAA invested that in T2, Pier D and Internal Road Network and other small things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 696 ✭✭✭TheFitz13


    It dosent really matter about the cost but when it's finished... It could make Dublin as big as Munich or Barajas (Madrid)........ Maybe even schipol (doubt it though)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 878 ✭✭✭rainbowdash


    It would surely make more sense to upgrade Baldonnell, even if only for budget airlines serving Europe.

    It would immediately ease M50 traffic.

    It would be accessible for South county Dublin.

    It would be easily rail connectable

    It would create competition.

    It would be much more accessible for Limerick, Cork, Port Laoise etc.,

    In the event of an incident/ accident / weather event at one airport the other may still be operable.

    The government could sell it to a private operator, generating a big windfall.


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