Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

What upgrades were planned for the Green Line that now wont take place because of Metro?

What benefit is it to Green line residents to be able to travel to Swords from Sandyford, given the airport is easily reachable already?

If I am a Green Line resident and i were to lose that service for x amount of months (we all know it would be longer than projected) i would want to know what the long term benefit was, vs investing in other capital projects that dont have any rail service currently.

Yes it would be very good value for money.

But prioritised over DART underground?

I just dont see how that can be the case, but appreciate your input.

I was talking about Dublin area investment.

As i say, surely DART underground, which would be the only orbital rail route we have in Dublin and would connect Rail, the DART and both Luas Lines, as well as opening up all of the above for a vast amount of people and tourists, would be a better first choice?

Metro from Sandyford to Swords would be a nice to have and if it could be installed tomorrow, i dont think there would be many objections.

But as a priority and as someone that would directly benefit from it, i would opt for DART Underground if i had to choose.

I just think that project will benefit more people, overall.

Yes, i see your point.

But even with additional new homes, the Luas is unlikley to reach capacity outside of a handful of peak times for a long time to come.

The Luas isnt working as hard as it could, either. Even without impact to road networks, it could deliver a higher frequency and extend peak times as well as some night services.

Then factor in the cost and how long it will take to build the Metro?

I am not saying its not a good idea, i just dont think its the best idea.

And how many projects can we finance, realistically, over the next 20 years.

Again, the route is largely in place, we have the footfall already, the catchment area is increasing in population volume and density and the upgrade is relatively cheap per passenger journey. This is not about Metro from 'Sandyford to Swords'. It's about having a functioning high capacity service from Sandyford to Stephen's Green into the future.

There's a silly element to this conversation: you say 'well if we lose the LUAS for X months we would need to know it is worth it' but by doing nothing you are on an inevitable track to losing access to the LUAS at certain times of certain days on an ongoing basis. The only way an upgrade to Metro won't happen is if Metrolink itself never happens. Otherwise, by the time Metrolink opens the Green Line LUAS will be functionally unusable at peak times between Sandyford and Stephen's Green and no misinformation campaign, set of crayon drawings or musings on "tax payer value" will prevent the plans being set in motion for the upgrade.

Where are we up to with Metrolink though? Surely there is a very good chance it wont happen (be operational) within the next decade or two?

How many years has it been spoken about? i have to be honest, i glaze over if its ever mentioned in the news.

Its certianly a case of "believe it when i see it" at this stage.

Yes, all really valid points and i dont think many would disagree that we need forward thinking planning.

But with that in mind, surely Metro North/South is just a strand rather than a solution.

To really future proof Dublin against investment and population growth, do we not need a full underground network, rather than a couple of spokes in a wheel?

A mini London Underground that is interconnected and is a no brainer for people to use, regardless of where they live in the city.

The problem with current and proposed solutions is they work well if you want to travel in a straight line and you are lucky enough to be located on that line.

if you dont fit the 2 criteria, the car is the only option for most.

I am agreeing with your macro point, but I sure as hell dont see Metro North as a solution for transport when the majority of the city wont be connected to use it.

Metro North delivered within the decade is certainly not going to happen :) That goes without saying.

Completed BusConnects possibly in 3 years? Maybe. If we can find and retain drivers.

Yes, i see what you are saying.

But if Metrolink gets the Green Light but takes 15 years to build (optimistic i know) that means that DART Underground cannot start for 15 years, if both projects cannot be facilitated at the same time (even though they are independent of one another)

That being the case, it would be at least 2038 before DART Underground could start?

None of these things are the final "solution". Neither is any new road or lane expansion or bus service. When we've built MetroLink and completed DART+ extensions, there will be Metro South and LUAS extensions and, eventually, I hope, someday, DART Underground.

We've spent 50 years (the original DART Underground plan was drawn up in 1975) delaying and asking 'what about' before getting the crayons out and kicking off a new round of consultancy to draw up the next plan that gets shelved. It's well past the time for spades in the ground on a high frequency / high capacity link to the airport. In parallel (and you can see this on the Green Line, which will be a victim of its success), we grant planning permission for high-density residential buildings along the route, and it becomes a straight line where huge volumes of people live and commute in and out of town. And it's all affordable, manageable, and scalable.

Then we will move on to the next thing. We've decades of your type of thinking and wondering and questioning. It turns out roads and low density weren't the answer. It never will be the answer. We can only wait so long.

My type of thinking would have been to design an integrated underground years ago.

Not a 2 line luas with a bolt on metro line and then scratch our heads about where to put the next bolt on line in 30 yrs time.

There doesnt actually seem to be an integrated vision, still.

We did design it. It was planned and replanned numerous times by different Transport Bodies employing high-priced consultants, with eventually a Railway Order granted in December 2011, which was allowed to expire by the FG Government in 2015. So that's that. To once again abandon a heavy rail project to the airport to start replanning DART Underground again would be beyond insane.

Did we actually design an underground network though? Not just a line straight up and down from the airport.

Something akin to the London underground but on a smaller scale. Something that would put every resident in County Dublin (rural north county dublin excepted) within 800m of an Underground Station.

This is an increasingly mad conversation. The London Underground is built out and added to line by line. DART Underground would have been an "interconnector" that could be built out and integrated over time. Eschewing rational projects because they aren't the "final solution" is a perfect recipe for nothing ever to be built, which is often the exact intention of those espousing your line of thought.

The Circle line was designed and thought out very early on and was delivered in the formative stages of the LU, well before 1900.

Its not like London just built a solitary static line and then thought, "oh, wait a minute, we can bolt something on here", some years later.

I appreciate all things need to be built in phases, but i am yet to see any proposal for a truly integrated Dubln PT system fit for today, never mind fit for the future.

At the moment, we have a plan for Metrolink, which is realistically 2 decades away from completion, if we are lucky.

Dart Underground to come after that, at some future date.

Its hardly inspiring stuff.

You keep saying, 'Two decades away from completion'. What are you basing that on?

Inspiring or no, it would be a start.

well as of 2018 it was supposed to open in 2027 and we dont have a spade in the ground, just 3.5 years out.

So current projected date of 2034, which is ober a decade away, has to be extended, based on previous and current form.