Navan Rail Line

Elmer Blooker · 11-12-2019 10:28pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Well the simple fact is with the amount of housing planed for the Navan Area over the next 10/15 years if they don’t build a rail line the M3 from Navan North will look very similar to the M50

In Copenhagen a metro to the airport was built BEFORE the housing and apartments were built along the line but unfortunately we don't think that way in this country.

Last Stop · 11-12-2019 10:30pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

In Copenhagen a metro to the airport was built BEFORE the housing and apartments were built along the line but unfortunately we don't think that way in this country.

Metrolink does exactly this around Swords. There’s huge area for development opposite the pavilions where the Swords Central stop is proposed??

ohographite · 11-12-2019 11:02pm

ncounties wrote: »

I think that would be the best solution for connection Letterkenny to the rail network. I don't believe the volume of traffic between L´Kenny and Derry would warrant it's own railway line.

If the railway line ever were to be built (which I think there will be political pressure for post the A5 upgrade), I think it would be best to continue on to Derry on the eastern bank of the Foyle. More residents on that side, and easier in time to connect with the existing Derry station. Additionally, if feasible engineering-wise, I think it would be best to go straight on to Armagh from Omagh and not to Portadown (varying from the original line) which would provide Armagh with a link direct to Dublin too.

There is currently significant pressure to get the line from Portadown extended to Armagh as well, with the University of Ulster using a feasibility study as part of its Civil Engineering programme, and the local council recently agreeing to fund an initial feasibility study.

CRAYON ALERT
Attached, are the lines highlighted in yellow that in my thought that could come in time, and this would connect a population in excess of 175,000 with Dublin. Of course this would definitely need to see the Northern Line improved out of Dublin!

Would it be feasible to build the N2 and A5 upgrade very straight and level, and put railway tracks on its alignment as well?
I think it would make the railway cheaper to build than if it was built on a separate alignment.

That would mean it would serve Monaghan, Omagh, Strabane and a few smaller towns. It would still need some separate alignments to run through the towns where potential stations would be, unless all the stations are placed inconveniently beside the motorway, on the edges of all these towns.

I still like your suggestion of an alignment via Armagh though.

marno21 · 12-12-2019 12:07am

No chance of the N2 upgrade carrying a rail line. Apart from population densities, the gradients and curves on the N2 upgrade (a good bit of which will be online upgrades of existing road) will be too severe for rail lines.

CatInABox · 12-12-2019 10:58am

Last Stop wrote: »

Metrolink does exactly this around Swords. There’s huge area for development opposite the pavilions where the Swords Central stop is proposed??

Also ignores that the Luas Green Line was already built like this, with a stop at Cherrywood, an empty muddy field back when the line was constructed, now a fair size town under construction.

Pete_Cavan · 12-12-2019 11:00am

The old line to Navan is completely gone in a number of locations plus it doesn't serve any meaningful population until it gets to Navan, it's a none runner. Imo the only way to bring rail to Navan is with a new alignment, predominantly following the M3. Continue north from M3PW and cross to the other side of the motorway after the toll. Hug the motorway, deviating to create a station at Dunshaughlin before following the motorway again. Head North at J7, where a P&R is created, new station near Kentstown to serve all the houses on that side of Navan, and then join the Drogheda line into the town. 30km of track, three new stations, one major rail bridge over the motorway and avoids motorway GSJs.

The only way I could ever see this being justified was if it was also to serve as a alternative to adding tracks to the Northern line. Drogheda trains could be put on the Navan line to get them off the northern line. Dundalk and possibly Belfast trains could run on it too but that would require a total rebuild of Drogheda Station. Clonsilla to Broombridge could become over congested though but a passing section could be provided around Navan Road Parkway.

blanch152 · 12-12-2019 11:34am

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

In Copenhagen a metro to the airport was built BEFORE the housing and apartments were built along the line but unfortunately we don't think that way in this country.

Wasn't there a station on the LUAS line near Cherrywood that wasn't open at first because houses hadn't been built?

CatInABox · 12-12-2019 11:37am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The old line to Navan is completely gone in a number of locations plus it doesn't serve any meaningful population until it gets to Navan, it's a none runner. Imo the only way to bring rail to Navan is with a new alignment, predominantly following the M3. Continue north from M3PW and cross to the other side of the motorway after the toll. Hug the motorway, deviating to create a station at Dunshaughlin before following the motorway again. Head North at J7, where a P&R is created, new station near Kentstown to serve all the houses on that side of Navan, and then join the Drogheda line into the town. 30km of track, three new stations, one major rail bridge over the motorway and avoids motorway GSJs.

The only way I could ever see this being justified was if it was also to serve as a alternative to adding tracks to the Northern line. Drogheda trains could be put on the Navan line to get them off the northern line. Dundalk and possibly Belfast trains could run on it too but that would require a total rebuild of Drogheda Station. Clonsilla to Broombridge could become over congested though but a passing section could be provided around Navan Road Parkway.

If they plan on using what remains of the existing alignment, then they'd need to add special development zones along the route as well, Cherrywood-esque, to encourage a massive increase in density along the line.

Victor · 12-12-2019 11:53am

blanch152 wrote: »

Wasn't there a station on the LUAS line near Cherrywood that wasn't open at first because houses hadn't been built?

Neither Racecourse (intended as an event stop) nor Brennanstown have opened.

AAAAAAAAA · 12-12-2019 1:22pm

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

In Copenhagen a metro to the airport was built BEFORE the housing and apartments were built along the line but unfortunately we don't think that way in this country.

You should look at the area from Bride's Glen to Carrickmines on google earth, the main roads have been carved out and partially constructed to a very good spec so far (including trunk services and full cycle lanes), it's genuinely very well planned out.

ohographite · 12-12-2019 4:17pm

marno21 wrote: »

No chance of the N2 upgrade carrying a rail line. Apart from population densities, the gradients and curves on the N2 upgrade (a good bit of which will be online upgrades of existing road) will be too severe for rail lines.

I am suggesting to build the new stretches of road straight and level enough to carry a railway. I am aware that if any road was built without this consideration, there would the be gradients and curves you mention.

magicbastarder · 12-12-2019 4:19pm

the road has those grades because of the landscape. if you wanted to build a level railway track, it'd involve levelling land on a massive scale.

Lord Fairlord · 13-12-2019 6:03pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Dublin-Derry Translink bus serves Armagh.

I didn't know that - thanks. Perhaps that wasn't the case though when I was traveling which was several years ago.

LXFlyer · 13-12-2019 7:19pm

Lord Fairlord wrote: »

I didn't know that - thanks. Perhaps that wasn't the case though when I was traveling which was several years ago.

You are both right.

There are two routes

X3: Dublin-Derry via Ardee, Monaghan and Omagh
X4: Dublin-Derry via Armagh and Cookstown

ohographite · 13-12-2019 9:56pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

the road has those grades because of the landscape. if you wanted to build a level railway track, it'd involve levelling land on a massive scale.

I'm aware you'd need to do more levelling to build a level railway and road on the same alignment, but I'm guessing it would be easier(cheaper, less disruptive) to build the two of them together like this than it would be to build them separately.

LuckyLloyd · 18-12-2019 3:52pm

As always, a reminder that a rail line between Dublin and Navan currently exists and is currently used 24 times a week. Imagine that? An actual rail line in use between Navan and Dublin that could be used to bring passengers from one to the other...

CatInABox · 18-12-2019 4:10pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As always, a reminder that a rail line between Dublin and Navan currently exists and is currently used 24 times a week. Imagine that? An actual rail line in use between Navan and Dublin that could be used to bring passengers from one to the other...

What kind of journey time is it though? And could they fit these extra trains into the schedule along the northern line?

Victor · 18-12-2019 4:45pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As always, a reminder that a rail line between Dublin and Navan currently exists and is currently used 24 times a week. Imagine that? An actual rail line in use between Navan and Dublin that could be used to bring passengers from one to the other...

Is it suitable for carrying passenger? Likely no.

Would it be competitive on time? Likely no.

Are there trains available? Likely no.

LuckyLloyd · 18-12-2019 6:23pm

Victor wrote: »

Is it suitable for carrying passenger? Likely no.

Would it be competitive on time? Likely no.

Are there trains available? Likely no.

- It will need to be upgraded, no doubt about it. But that will be a much more realistic cost and timeline.

- It won’t compete on time but if it is reliable and door to door some people will sacrifice 20 minutes for the convenience, comfort and predictability.

- There are no trains available for a mooted new line either.

We have a potential short term solution sitting there, available for minimal cost and time. We should always leverage our existing infrastructure where possible to provide additional service and meet demand. Much better than sitting around another decade arguing over a ‘perfect’ solution that will never be built.

LuckyLloyd · 18-12-2019 6:28pm

CatInABox wrote: »

What kind of journey time is it though? And could they fit these extra trains into the schedule along the northern line?

If Northern Line capacity was an insurmountable impediment, implementing a Navan to Drogheda service, changing at Drogheda and extending Drogheda to Dublin trains to accommodate additional load could be an option.

Again, there’s a line from Navan that is used multiple times most days sitting there. Along with station facility, etc.

LXFlyer · 18-12-2019 6:48pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If Northern Line capacity was an insurmountable impediment, implementing a Navan to Drogheda service, changing at Drogheda and extending Drogheda to Dublin trains to accommodate additional load could be an option.

Again, there’s a line from Navan that is used multiple times most days sitting there. Along with station facility, etc.

Northern line trains are full to capacity at peak and at the shoulders of the peak too.

Adding Navan passengers is a complete non-runner until the northern line is electrified and the extra DART stock delivered.

Significant works would also be needed to make the Navan-Drogheda line suitable for passenger trains.

LuckyLloyd · 18-12-2019 8:01pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Northern line trains are full to capacity at peak and at the shoulders of the peak too.

Adding Navan passengers is a complete non-runner until the northern line is electrified and the extra DART stock delivered.

Significant works would also be needed to make the Navan-Drogheda line suitable for passenger trains.

Define “significant”? We have freight trains going up and down it at 50mph.

Again, the other things aren’t happening. This isn’t a perfect solution but you could get service up and running at a fraction of the cost and time

LXFlyer · 18-12-2019 10:24pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Define “significant”? We have freight trains going up and down it at 50mph.

Again, the other things aren’t happening. This isn’t a perfect solution but you could get service up and running at a fraction of the cost and time

You might want to check your background information as it is wrong.

The line speed between Navan and Drogheda is 25 mph for the entire line, not 50 mph, along with train crew operated level crossing en route as well.

That will require a fair bit of money to upgrade.

It's not quite the easy fix you suggest, especially when combined with the capacity issues on the Northern Line.

The freight trains are pretty much locked into their schedule which occupy the line between Drogheda and Navan from:

06:00 and 06:50
08:40 and 10:20
12:35 and 13:20
15:15 and 16:00
19:05 and 19:50

That doesn't leave a huge number of paths.

ncounties · 18-12-2019 11:18pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

You might want to check your background information as it is wrong.

The line speed between Navan and Drogheda is 25 mph for the entire line, not 50 mph, along with train crew operated level crossing en route as well.

That will require a fair bit of money to upgrade.

It's not quite the easy fix you suggest, especially when combined with the capacity issues on the Northern Line.

The freight trains are pretty much locked into their schedule which occupy the line between Drogheda and Navan from:

06:00 and 06:50
08:40 and 10:20
12:35 and 13:20
15:15 and 16:00
19:05 and 19:50

That doesn't leave a huge number of paths.

For us rail supporters, it would be a bad move to campaign for this line to have passenger services started. For the reasons listed above, and in previous posts, it is clear that any service would provide poor timings, speed, and connectivity with Dublin.

If we did regardless of all of the above, push ahead; the low ridership and satisfaction which would be seen with the service would be something that the anti-rail lobby could use against any suggestion of extending the M3 Parkway line northward to Ashbourne, Dunshaughlin and Navan.

loyatemu · 19-12-2019 11:02am

Platform 11 (as was) looked into this many many years ago and reckoned a journey time of about 1:20 was achievable via the Navan-Drogheda line. I don't know how this compares with bus services.

Realistically this option should have been considered when the previous plan to reopen via Clonsilla was long-fingered. It's unlikely to get much traction now if the Clonsilla option is back on the table.

LXFlyer · 19-12-2019 12:06pm

loyatemu wrote: »

Platform 11 (as was) looked into this many many years ago and reckoned a journey time of about 1:20 was achievable via the Navan-Drogheda line. I don't know how this compares with bus services.

Realistically this option should have been considered when the previous plan to reopen via Clonsilla was long-fingered. It's unlikely to get much traction now if the Clonsilla option is back on the table.

Sadly, it’s not compatible with the current line speed on the Navan branch and probably a bigger problem is that the 10 minute DART service is up and running, there is little or no scope for extra trains without improving the infrastructure.

Lord Glentoran · 19-12-2019 11:37pm

Victor wrote: »

Is it suitable for carrying passenger? Likely no.

Would it be competitive on time? Likely no.

Are there trains available? Likely no.

Are there reasons never to try? Always.

LuckyLloyd · 19-12-2019 11:52pm

loyatemu wrote: »

Platform 11 (as was) looked into this many many years ago and reckoned a journey time of about 1:20 was achievable via the Navan-Drogheda line. I don't know how this compares with bus services.

Realistically this option should have been considered when the previous plan to reopen via Clonsilla was long-fingered. It's unlikely to get much traction now if the Clonsilla option is back on the table.

€54m

Sounds great!

ohographite · 20-12-2019 11:52am

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Are there reasons never to try? Always.

Using the Navan-Drogheda line for passenger trains would be better than nothing, and I do see why some want this to be done over reopening M3 Parkway-Navan.
I think reopening M3 Parkway-Navan is worth the extra money it would cost. If it's reopened, the Kilmessan-Trim branch can be reopened, and a new branch can be built to Rathoath and Ashbourne.

LuckyLloyd · 20-12-2019 11:57am

Essentially you have to ask whether an imperfect solution at achievable budget and timeline (that might spur needed improvement works on the busiest branch of the national rail network) is preferable to waiting forever for the ‘perfect’ solution that lacks the political will given the budget and timelines involved.

There is currently no national appetite to break new ground for heavy rail projects, rightly or wrongly. Leveraging existing infrastructure and rights of way should be the starting point of every conversation.

loyatemu · 20-12-2019 12:16pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Essentially you have to ask whether an imperfect solution at achievable budget and timeline (that might spur needed improvement works on the busiest branch of the national rail network) is preferable to waiting forever for the ‘perfect’ solution that lacks the political will given the budget and timelines involved.

There is currently no national appetite to break new ground for heavy rail projects, rightly or wrongly. Leveraging existing infrastructure and rights of way should be the starting point of every conversation.

Fair point - the Navan line is never going to be top of the infrastructure priority list, it's likely to keep getting kicked to touch in favour of other projects (particularly if there's a downturn).

If the existing line could be brought up to spec for (say) 50m that would be a reasonably cheap solution that would in turn show demand for the more expensive project (the issue of lack of rolling stock is separate - they have to buy trains anyway).

LXFlyer · 20-12-2019 1:16pm

You still have the issue of a lack of paths on the Northern line at peak times.

That is the main problem.

LuckyLloyd · 20-12-2019 2:36pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

You still have the issue of a lack of paths on the Northern line at peak times.

That is the main problem.

Improvements are required along the northern line. Further resignalling and double tracking should be a key priority for Irish Rail. These things could be kicked off in tandem.

I think spending money in these areas is a far better use of funds than extending M3 to Navan or extending the western rail corridor anyway. We need to be squeezing every drop out of that we’ve got.

Pete_Cavan · 20-12-2019 2:43pm

Reopening the original line is not a realistic option, large chunks of it no longer exist. Reopening it involves the same extent of works as building a new line but has the disadvantage of a Victorian era alignment and serves no real population between Dunboyne and Navan. As I said before, a new alignment would have to be on the basis that it acts as an alternative to the northern line for trains north of Drogheda.

LXFlyer · 20-12-2019 3:20pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Improvements are required along the northern line. Further resignalling and double tracking should be a key priority for Irish Rail. These things could be kicked off in tandem.

I think spending money in these areas is a far better use of funds than extending M3 to Navan or extending the western rail corridor anyway. We need to be squeezing every drop out of that we’ve got.

I’m just making the point that it isn’t quite as straightforward as you are making out.

None of those are even on the capital spending horizon at the moment even though they should be.

LuckyLloyd · 20-12-2019 4:17pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Reopening the original line is not a realistic option, large chunks of it no longer exist. Reopening it involves the same extent of works as building a new line but has the disadvantage of a Victorian era alignment and serves no real population between Dunboyne and Navan. As I said before, a new alignment would have to be on the basis that it acts as an alternative to the northern line for trains north of Drogheda.

The Tara Mines train goes along the line closed to passenger trains since 1958 on a daily basis, sometimes multiple times a day. Line is in use and whole. Estimates to upgrade (including new stations) is €54m

Pete_Cavan · 20-12-2019 4:55pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The Tara Mines train goes along the line closed to passenger trains since 1958 on a daily basis, sometimes multiple times a day. Line is in use and whole. Estimates to upgrade (including new stations) is €54m

That is the Navan - Drogheda line which takes Tara Mines trains, it's not the same as extending from M3 Parkway as was suggested earlier.

gibgodsman · 20-12-2019 4:57pm

Navan will never get a rail line, there is far too much money for the Government to make with the use of the tolls on the M3 and money they get from Bus Eireann. Its by far the largest town in Ireland without any sort of rail line and its a disgrace, it makes working in Dublin impossible or a completely different lifestyle.

LXFlyer · 20-12-2019 5:11pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The Tara Mines train goes along the line closed to passenger trains since 1958 on a daily basis, sometimes multiple times a day. Line is in use and whole. Estimates to upgrade (including new stations) is €54m

Again though that’s an estimate from some time ago.
Costs will have escalated since.

Last Stop · 20-12-2019 7:41pm

https://youtu.be/ChqvXMAUnkM

In 1991 with 25mph speed restrictions the journey time to Drogheda was 35 minutes. So journey time to Connolly would be 1:30 plus stops and an allowance for congestion at Drogheda and Connolly. It is slower than the bus which has a typical journey time of 1:20. When you add in the fact that the bus drops you into the city centre rather than Connolly, the bus is even more attractive.
Naturally this journey time would drop with upgrade works but the cost benefit ratio for the line between Clonsilla and Navan given the other towns served along that route would be higher.

The rail users rates converted to per km seem about right when compared to Irish Rail Strategy figures but they have underestimated the cost per station. They also do not allow for the purchase of new rolling stock. Irish Rail cost a 6 car set at €20m. So even allowing for a very conservative 5 new trains you’ve tripled your budget.

So €65m to upgrade this line or roughly €220m for the Rolls Royce upgrade to Pace - Navan (could be done as single track for €130m).

And finally, to clarify a point made earlier, Navan is not the largest town in Ireland without a rail line. That “honour” of course goes to Swords.

roadmaster · 20-12-2019 8:06pm

gibgodsman wrote: »

Navan will never get a rail line, there is far too much money for the Government to make with the use of the tolls on the M3 and money they get from Bus Eireann. Its by far the largest town in Ireland without any sort of rail line and its a disgrace, it makes working in Dublin impossible or a completely different lifestyle.

The problem with bus eireann is it takes an hour to get blanch from busarus in the evening

roadmaster · 20-12-2019 8:09pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

That is the Navan - Drogheda line which takes Tara Mines trains, it's not the same as extending from M3 Parkway as was suggested earlier.

An problem with the tara trains is they are apparently not wanted on dublin port anymore so they might end up using trucks again to go to an alternative port so you could see the line close

Happy4all · 20-12-2019 8:13pm

At a business meeting a couple of years ago attended by local councilors it was stated that it would never happen because of costs and no viable profit from operating.

So I've been resigned to that outcome for a while. Don't go getting your hopes up.

Victor · 20-12-2019 9:37pm

Last Stop wrote: »

So €65m to upgrade this line or roughly €220m for the Rolls Royce upgrade to Pace - Navan (could be done as single track for €130m).

I've seen the Irish Rail documentation and their estimate around 2010 was about €450 million all-in for Dunboyne-Navan-Navan North. Single track (with passing loops and with space for double tracking) is only marginally cheaper than double track. It's the same clanance, same structures, same boundaries, same drainage, same stations, similar crossovers, similar signalling, just a saving on track.

roadmaster wrote: »

An problem with the tara trains is they are apparently not wanted on dublin port anymore so they might end up using trucks again to go to an alternative port so you could see the line close

It's a planning condition for the mine that the lead ore goes by train.

AngryLips · 20-12-2019 10:19pm

Couldn't a potential Navan line from Dunboyne join up with the Navan-Drogheda line and continue on to Drogheda?

L1011 · 20-12-2019 10:23pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Couldn't a potential Navan line from Dunboyne join up with the Navan-Drogheda line and continue on to Drogheda?

Well yes, but why?

Victor · 20-12-2019 10:55pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Couldn't a potential Navan line from Dunboyne join up with the Navan-Drogheda line and continue on to Drogheda?

At what point would it join up with the Navan-Drogheda line? Do you mean something like between the two red lines here?

Note my earlier suggestion (between the blue lines) that would at least allow a reasonably direct route from Dublin to both Navan and Drogheda and would take pressure off the Northern Line.

The reality is that TII, Fingal County Council and Meath County Council have messed up a large part of the lives of 500,000 people on a profound level.

Last Stop · 22-12-2019 12:03pm

Victor wrote: »

I've seen the Irish Rail documentation and their estimate around 2010 was about €450 million all-in for Dunboyne-Navan-Navan North. Single track (with passing loops and with space for double tracking) is only marginally cheaper than double track. It's the same clanance, same structures, same boundaries, same drainage, same stations, similar crossovers, similar signalling, just a saving on track.

You’re assuming that if they built single track that they would make future provision for double tracking on all lands and structures. That mightn’t be the case. Of course it would make sense to do so in terms of CPOing land but a number of structures could be widening if and when required at a future date. This would be particularly the case on the bridge over the Boyne where a single track could use the existing bridge but double track might require a new structure. That along would save millions!!

It’s 30km from Pace to Navan. With 3 new stations there would be roughly 10km between then which would mean that passing loops wouldn’t be require between stations.

Last Stop · 22-12-2019 12:27pm

Victor wrote: »

At what point would it join up with the Navan-Drogheda line? Do you mean something like between the two red lines here?

Note my earlier suggestion (between the blue lines) that would at least allow a reasonably direct route from Dublin to both Navan and Drogheda and would take pressure off the Northern Line.

The blue route is certainly not a direct route to either Navan or Drogheda. The blue route also required tunnelling from Broomsbridge to the M50 which make the costs astronomical.

Surely it would more sense to run via the old line to Navan and then join the Navan - Drogheda line. This would offer commuters 2 options taking the pressure off the northern line? Not the most direct connect but if you were commuting from say Drogheda to Maynooth it would make much more sense.

The reality is that TII, Fingal County Council and Meath County Council have messed up a large part of the lives of 500,000 people on a profound level.

How do you come to that conclusion??
1) the numbers served by the Navan line would be less than 100,000 not half a million!
2) why are any of the organisations to blame? People chose to live there knew about the lack of a railway when they moved.
3) the journey time savings between bus and rail (based on timetables) is quite small. Therefore if you are currently taking the bus it would change too much. If you’re currently taking the car you could take the bus or park and ride from Pace. The benefits are not profound so the lack of a railway line is not having the impact you suggest.

CrabRevolution · 22-12-2019 10:19pm

gibgodsman wrote: »

Navan will never get a rail line, there is far too much money for the Government to make with the use of the tolls on the M3 and money they get from Bus Eireann. Its by far the largest town in Ireland without any sort of rail line and its a disgrace, it makes working in Dublin impossible or a completely different lifestyle.

I'd support an M3-Navan rail line but find this argument a bit ridiculous and not really a justification for the line. There's always going to be some largest town unconnected to the rail network. Building the M3-Navan line would just mean somewhere like Letterkenny or Cavan will be the largest town without a rail line.

Navan Rail Line

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