Norwegian Air Discussion

Graham · 03-12-2016 12:24am #1

Norwegian Air International (NAI) has been finally granted a licence by US authorities that will enable to launch highly anticipated direct transatlantic routes between Ireland and American cities including Boston and New York.

http://www.independent.ie/business/exclusive-norwegian-air-granted-licence-paving-way-for-first-ever-direct-routes-between-cork-and-us-35264435.html

Cork - Boston appears to be first in the list

Good news and long overdue for Norwegian.

Locker10a · 03-12-2016 1:23am

Yay, looking forward to expensive fares, and less service.......just from Cork

Graham · 03-12-2016 1:42am

Locker10a wrote: »

Yay, looking forward to expensive fares, and less service.......just from Cork

I understand it's not going to be mandatory to fly with them so you should be ok.

Personally I think it's pretty good news for the airline, the airport and the region.

Bsal · 03-12-2016 3:22am

Wasn't this held up with disputes over crews working conditions etc has any of that been resolved?

medoc · 03-12-2016 7:10am

Have they any plans to fly out of Dublin to US destinations? I presume this permission will enable them to fly transatlantic from other EU cities direct too.

Cookiemunster · 03-12-2016 9:54am

Not just Cork. They're in negotiations with SNN as well.

https://twitter.com/ShannonAirport/status/804968778681479168

Mebuntu · 03-12-2016 11:23am

Yay, looking forward to expensive fares, and less service.......just from Cork

Couldn't understand this comment. What would be the point in starting up if the fares are going to be expensive? If people want expensive they can go with EI et al.

Then I read this article in the Irish Times and all was explained as it's clear that some of the usual suspects are opposed to it, the same as they were to a certain other Irish airline startup a long time ago now.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/low-cost-airline-granted-licence-for-ireland-us-flights-1.2891515

Shame that the certain other Irish airline didn't get in first but I wish Norwegian the best just as I did Tony Ryan all those years ago.

maximum12 · 03-12-2016 12:38pm

Glad to hear. Great day for Boston and the New England area!

Zonda999 · 03-12-2016 12:38pm

As a Cork man, I'm happy to see this go ahead but it really is hope rather than certainty I have that this will be a success.

I just think that if you look at the existing capacity we have on Ireland to Boston (Including Delta entering DUB-BOS in 2017) as well as the new EI Hartford route, it feels like we are reaching a new high in terms of transatlatic connectivity and I just hope there is the market there to sustain it.

More so, in the case of Cork, we already have WOW starting 5x weekly next year aiming for the same market. I really think more than half the demand for these new routes will have to be North American based pax because lets face it Cork based passengers are going to be price sensitive and I would have thought, more than willing to fly via LHR or AMS to get a decent all inclusive fare

Deagol · 03-12-2016 12:40pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Not just Cork. They're in negotiations with SNN as well.

https://twitter.com/ShannonAirport/status/804968778681479168

Hope to hell that doesn't happen. EI will likely pull out and leave us with no business class for those that need to work immediately upon arriving etc. :mad:

I'd rather drive to Dublin or fly to JFK with flag carriers

murphaph · 03-12-2016 2:29pm

Zonda999 wrote: »

As a Cork man, I'm happy to see this go ahead but it really is hope rather than certainty I have that this will be a success.

I just think that if you look at the existing capacity we have on Ireland to Boston (Including Delta entering DUB-BOS in 2017) as well as the new EI Hartford route, it feels like we are reaching a new high in terms of transatlatic connectivity and I just hope there is the market there to sustain it.

More so, in the case of Cork, we already have WOW starting 5x weekly next year aiming for the same market. I really think more than half the demand for these new routes will have to be North American based pax because lets face it Cork based passengers are going to be price sensitive and I would have thought, more than willing to fly via LHR or AMS to get a decent all inclusive fare

Corkonians need to use it or lose it.

kub · 03-12-2016 11:19pm

Going back to technicalities here, I know Ryanair deliveries fly direct from Settle to Dublin non stop, it being an empty plane.
Will a 737-800 have the range and especially in the winter months with the Easterly winds when heading West to get all the way to Boston or NYC without stopping to top up?

Bsal · 04-12-2016 2:01am

kub wrote: »

Going back to technicalities here, I know Ryanair deliveries fly direct from Settle to Dublin non stop, it being an empty plane.
Will a 737-800 have the range and especially in the winter months with the Easterly winds when heading West to get all the way to Boston or NYC without stopping to top up?

I presume they will have to limit the number of passengers to well below the standard 189 of the B738 due to the runway lenght at Cork being 2133m.

Bussywussy · 04-12-2016 10:57am

I dont think Norweigen plan to have their TA 737 MAX in 189 config anyway. Dual class 164 which are being delivered next may,doubt runway is an issue anyway for 737s even full.

bkehoe · 04-12-2016 11:06am

Bsal wrote: »

I presume they will have to limit the number of passengers to well below the standard 189 of the B738 due to the runway lenght at Cork being 2133m.

Yes, a ballpark of approx 100 pax max if getting airborne with full fuel tanks out of Cork on an average winters day (i.e. lower than standard QNH). I'd say this service will see regular west bound fuel stops, even if its at Shannon!

Bussywussy · 04-12-2016 11:12am

bkehoe wrote: »

Yes, a ballpark of approx 100 pax max if getting airborne with full fuel tanks out of Cork on an average winters day (i.e. lower than standard QNH). I'd say this service will see regular west bound fuel stops, even if its at Shannon!

that little,jesus

drdeadlift · 04-12-2016 11:22am

Lower cargo/pax and just enough petrol..

dev100 · 04-12-2016 11:57am

kub wrote:

Going back to technicalities here, I know Ryanair deliveries fly direct from Settle to Dublin non stop, it being an empty plane. Will a 737-800 have the range and especially in the winter months with the Easterly winds when heading West to get all the way to Boston or NYC without stopping to top up?

Years ago I seen a Ryan air plane sitting on the run way in Seattle . I asked the question how do they manage to get it home and I was told they can extra fuel bags or something to that affect maybe that could be wrong ?

billy few mates · 04-12-2016 12:08pm

I think it's just a way of getting their foot in the door while they overcome all the regulatory hurdles, start off with a ORK-BOS service (or any other fanciful route pairing that no one else already does) so they can get the whole operation up and running with little or no objections. Once this one starts they can announce an expansion with a whole series of new routes out of DUB and SNN (which is the real prize) and then after a while just quietly drop the ORK-BOS route citing lack of customer demand.

bkehoe · 04-12-2016 1:25pm

dev100 wrote: »

Years ago I seen a Ryan air plane sitting on the run way in Seattle . I asked the question how do they manage to get it home and I was told they can extra fuel bags or something to that affect maybe that could be wrong ?

There's no additional ferry fuel tanks fitted to the 737 for delivery flights. The aircraft is capable of a flight this length because it's empty and therefore weighs less. Therefore its capable of taking a full 21 tonne fuel load and cruises at higher altitudes (which its capable of initially due to no passenger weight) where the engines burn less fuel as they don't need to produce as much thrust to remain at cruise altitude than if the aircraft also had a load of passengers on board. Also the prevailing westerly winds help a lot - this flight wouldn't be anywhere close to possible if going west-bound. The reserve fuel requirements are lower too, as of course the aircraft is extremely light by the time it arrives at DUB and reserve fuel burn requirement varies with the aircraft weight.

On rare occasions the winds aren't strong enough and an en-route fuel uplift is required. EG Jet2 couldn't do a direct delivery flight on one of their new arrivals recently. Poorer weather at destination could also increase reserve fuel requirements which would then make the direct flight impossible as well.

basill · 04-12-2016 2:09pm

Cork was always a side show. This was about a non EU loco getting an EU AOC and gaining access to the US market. This will now be used as the springboard for flights across Europe to commence. Quite what Kenny and Co were up to in supporting it all along none of us can fathom. Sometimes you have to be careful for what you wish for.

billy few mates · 04-12-2016 2:17pm

basill wrote: »

Cork was always a side show. This was about a non EU loco getting an EU AOC and gaining access to the US market. This will now be used as the springboard for flights across Europe to commence. Quite what Kenny and Co were up to in supporting it all along none of us can fathom. Sometimes you have to be careful for what you wish for.

How can a politician oppose it...?
An operator promising to bring "much needed" transport links, employment, investment (insert what ever other relevant buzzword applies) to an airport or a region that's crying out for transport links, employment, investment etc and its impossible to oppose it without upsetting the local government representatives and the electorate in that area. The locals would take to the streets in their thousands even though the vast majority of them will probably never use this particular service.

Mebuntu · 04-12-2016 2:23pm

This will now be used as the springboard for flights across Europe to commence.

What's wrong with that, then? The more choice for consumers the better.

steve-o · 04-12-2016 3:01pm

basill wrote: »

This was about a non EU loco getting an EU AOC and gaining access to the US market.

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Noway has been a party to Europe-US open skies since 2011. It already operates EU-US, so Norwegian don't need an EU AOC for that.

Locker10a · 04-12-2016 3:32pm

steve-o wrote: »

basill wrote: »

This was about a non EU loco getting an EU AOC and gaining access to the US market.

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Noway has been a party to Europe-US open skies since 2011. It already operates EU-US, so Norwegian don't need an EU AOC for that.

Yes they do, thats why they set up a pigeon hole company based in Ireland(See Norwegian International), for access to an Irish AOC which allows them more market access and with lesser regulation and employment law...

steve-o · 04-12-2016 8:30pm

Locker10a wrote: »

Yes they do, thats why they set up a pigeon hole company based in Ireland(See Norwegian International), for access to an Irish AOC which allows them more market access and with lesser regulation and employment law...

NAS (Norway) absolutely can operate Ireland to US under Open Skies. They don't need NAI (Ireland) for that. Your final point (lesser regulation and employment law) is the relevant one and that's the bone of contention for IALPA and their US counterparts.

elastico · 04-12-2016 8:57pm

billy few mates wrote: »

I think it's just a way of getting their foot in the door while they overcome all the regulatory hurdles, start off with a ORK-BOS service (or any other fanciful route pairing that no one else already does) so they can get the whole operation up and running with little or no objections. Once this one starts they can announce an expansion with a whole series of new routes out of DUB and SNN (which is the real prize) and then after a while just quietly drop the ORK-BOS route citing lack of customer demand.

How is Shannon a prize? Aer Lingus seem to struggle to keep an operation going there, where will the passengers come from?

billy few mates · 05-12-2016 12:32am

elastico wrote: »

How is Shannon a prize? Aer Lingus seem to struggle to keep an operation going there, where will the passengers come from?

I meant to say DUB as the main prize, SNN possibly a stepping stone to it...

billie1b · 05-12-2016 1:02am

Bussywussy wrote: »

that little,jesus

This flight is DUB - JFK on a B738 there is a ORK - BOS example further down

Works out in or around 142 pax, thats with 12 business class seats, extra bars, a crew of 03+05, eaxh pax having a 23kg bag each and being able to take a full fuel load of 22,100kgs with a max take off weight of 77,990kgs and that still leaves a little room for extra bags etc..
It wouldn't need the full 22,100kgs of fuel though, around 19,500kgs would be good with it burning 15,000-16,000kgs on the way (weather dependent).

Here's an example loadsheet for you.

bkehoe · 05-12-2016 10:53am

billie1b wrote: »

max take off weight of 77,990kgs

While the a/c can be certified with a MTOW up to 79 tonnes depending on the operator, the problem in Cork in winter is that the runway length won't allow much more than 70 tonnes for the RTOW with the conditions on some days (e.g. low QNH typically found during wet windy days).

Edit: Even today when the QNH is higher than STD (good), temperature lower than ISA (good), headwind component (good), with engine bleed supply for the air-conditioning packs off (not a normal SOP for most 737 operators, only used for extra performance), the RTOW is in the region of 76 tonnes.

If we assume no wind credit (runway in Cork doesn't point into the prevailing wind so on a windy day there would be very little credit for headwind) and a QNH of 980 (by no means as low as it can go; I've flown when its in the 960s!) and make the runway WET then we're limited to approx 70 tonnes (71 ish if Norwegian have 27k engines).

billie1b · 05-12-2016 11:10am

bkehoe wrote: »

While the a/c can be certified with a MTOW up to 79 tonnes depending on the operator, the problem in Cork in winter is that the runway length won't allow much more than 70 tonnes for the RTOW with the conditions on some days (e.g. low QNH typically found during wet windy days).

Edit: Even today when the QNH is higher than STD (good), temperature lower than ISA (good), headwind component (good), with engine bleed supply for the air-conditioning packs off (not a normal SOP for most 737 operators, only used for extra performance), the RTOW is in the region of 76 tonnes.

If we assume no wind credit (runway in Cork doesn't point into the prevailing wind so on a windy day there would be very little credit for headwind) and a QNH of 980 (by no means as low as it can go; I've flown when its in the 960s!) and make the runway WET then we're limited to approx 70 tonnes (71 ish if Norwegian have 27k engines).

Sorry I should have been more transparent, that was a loadsheet for a Ryanair 800 out of DUB as asked by a poster eaelier.

bkehoe · 05-12-2016 11:16am

billie1b wrote: »

Sorry I should have been more transparent, that was a loadsheet for a Ryanair 800 out of DUB as asked by a poster eaelier.

The post you quoted was with reference to the amount of passengers that can be carried from ORK though; why not do a load sheet with the parameters I provided to show everyone exactly how restrictive it is?

billie1b · 05-12-2016 11:29am

bkehoe wrote: »

The post you quoted was with reference to the amount of passengers that can be carried from ORK though; why not do a load sheet with the parameters I provided to show everyone exactly how restrictive it is?

Ok will do, it'll be a while though as i'm just heading to work now

billie1b · 05-12-2016 1:37pm

Spot on BKEHOE, restricted to 70,403kgs

Conditions

Airport : Cork
Runway Length : 6998ft
Elevation : 502ft
QNH : 970
Temp : 3 degrees
Aircraft : Boeing 738
MTOW : 77,990kgs
Thrust : 27k
Packs off

All these parameters restricts the aircraft to a MTOW of 70,403kgs, which after fuel gives an allowed pax load 96 pax with each pax having one 23kg bag each. Leaves feck all room for cargo, superneries, extra fuel etc etc.

highlydebased · 05-12-2016 5:04pm

Flights from all 3 state airports according to rte news

roundymac · 05-12-2016 6:22pm

96 Passengers, that's barely a break even figure is it not.

Idbatterim · 05-12-2016 8:08pm

bring on a direct flight from Dublin to Vegas!!!

did they announce cork, because they thought there would be far less competition from the big boys, going for tiny airports? Dublin, gatwick etc etc are where the serious demand is...

also I find the transatlantic flights very reasonable even with aer lingus currently, given the distances involved...

surely if flying from cork, if they reckon they can make money on it, they would be charging a good bit more than the lowest fares they currently advertise? they will be the only operator serving the route...

Idbatterim · 05-12-2016 9:34pm

they are also receiving the first deliveries for the 737 max in may... delighted, the more competition the better!

maximum12 · 05-12-2016 9:40pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

they are also receiving the first deliveries for the 737 max in may... delighted, the more competition the better!

Would that change the above passenger number limit for cork?

robyntmorton · 05-12-2016 9:56pm

maximum12 wrote: »

Would that change the above passenger number limit for cork?

She's meant to be more fuel efficient, so I'd assume so, but it wouldn't be too many more pax.

Idbatterim · 06-12-2016 12:33am

As per the above post. I would have to assume so. the max is the one oleary referred to as the game changer... You'd assume that will deploy them on the most profitable route. If cork can only take half the capacity, how profitable could it be?! Norwegian don't codeshare on us side yet do they? Because they are in talks with Ryanair and Easyjet to feed European passengers into their US flights. I'm assuming that will give iag etc a bit of a headache!

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-agreed-to-pay-boeing-a-premium-for-next-generation-aircraft-1.2075624

bkehoe · 06-12-2016 12:59pm

maximum12 wrote: »

Would that change the above passenger number limit for cork?

Unlikely to significantly change. The aircraft and its engines are more fuel efficient but again it depends on the thrust rating that the operators get and use and the weight of the airframe itself when empty. From what I know its available up to 28k lbs thrust on the -8, so only 1k thrust more than the CFM56 on the NG which isn't a huge difference (at a guess about 10 pax). Also worth noting that operators often don't use the highest rating their engines are certified for to save money on maintenance.

KCAccidental · 07-12-2016 3:22am

Looks like it will be flights to Rhode Island or New Hampshire for "Boston" and Stewart airport for New York, which would fit in with the ultra low cost model NAI are going to implement.

Norwegian Air Shuttle’s Irish-based subsidiary, which finally won U.S. regulatory approval for low-cost flights between the U.S. and Europe on Friday, no longer is eyeing Boston’s Logan International Airport for its new direct service to Cork, Shannon and Dublin, Ireland.

Norwegian will choose between New Hampshire’s Portsmouth International Airport and T.F. Green Airport in Warwick, R.I., for Norwegian Air International’s nonstop flights aboard Boeing 737s, citing costs as the reason. The single-aisle 737 carries 150 fewer passengers than the Boeing 787 Dreamliner flights that Norwegian will continue to operate out of Logan.

http://www.bostonherald.com/business/business_markets/2016/12/norwegian_air_grounds_logan_for_ireland_flights

Deagol · 07-12-2016 10:48am

Good grief, you that's as bad as any Ryanair claim I've seen.

Stewart is 1.5 hours from New York city, and T.F. Green is well over an hour from Boston on a good day, I95 being one of the worst freeway's for traffic.

I think I'd rather drive to Dublin and get a flight to the city I actually want to go to :eek:

roundymac · 07-12-2016 11:26am

steve-o wrote: »

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Noway has been a party to Europe-US open skies since 2011. It already operates EU-US, so Norwegian don't need an EU AOC for that.

http://www.bostonherald.com/business/business_markets/2016/12/norwegian_air_grounds_logan_for_ireland_flights
But they are using US based crews .

Mebuntu · 07-12-2016 11:52am

Deagol wrote: »

Good grief, you that's as bad as any Ryanair claim I've seen.

Stewart is 1.5 hours from New York city, and T.F. Green is well over an hour from Boston on a good day, I95 being one of the worst freeway's for traffic.

I think I'd rather drive to Dublin and get a flight to the city I actually want to go to :eek:

At first glance your comment may appear to make sense but I think you have to bear in mind the typical passengers who will fly this new route. They won't be too worried on this score. After all, if you fly from Dublin to London airports (excl LCY) the travel time to Central London is around an hour by Tube or Rail and longer by coach.

Your drive to Dublin would be a far greater inconvenience and expense (petrol/Toll/parking) plus the M50 debacle and uncertainty. Then, when you arrive back at DUB after a long flight you have to drive all the way home again.

So, to sum up. Driving to Dublin and back will add considerable extra expense to an airfare that will already be much dearer than Norwegian plus all the stress in driving both ways.

Tenger · 07-12-2016 1:04pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

At first glance your comment may appear to make sense but I think you have to bear in mind the typical passengers who will fly this new route. They won't be too worried on this score. ......

And the passengers may not be actually aimed for the "big city" destiantion in the end. Look at the recent EI destination of Hartford, its services the larger New England region.
The Rhode island airport does similar, Stewart could service NY state.

But there will always be those who just look at the airfare are are horrified when thet take the flight and not realise what they have paid for. (or not paid for in this case) I remember reading articles about the early NAI flights with pax unable to purchase water and blankets as it was card only.
Always read the flight info and know where you are flying to.

Rhys Essien · 07-12-2016 1:20pm

Would the clearance be a lot quicker at these smaller airports that it would have been at Logan airport?.So will it all balance out?.

snotboogie · 07-12-2016 2:37pm

Deagol wrote: »

Good grief, you that's as bad as any Ryanair claim I've seen.

Stewart is 1.5 hours from New York city, and T.F. Green is well over an hour from Boston on a good day, I95 being one of the worst freeway's for traffic.

I think I'd rather drive to Dublin and get a flight to the city I actually want to go to :eek:

Why would you rather drive 3 hours than 1.5 hours?

Graham · 07-12-2016 2:42pm

snotboogie wrote: »

Why would you rather drive 3 hours than 1.5 hours?

To save spending an hour in traffic

snotboogie · 07-12-2016 2:45pm

billy few mates wrote: »

elastico wrote: »

How is Shannon a prize? Aer Lingus seem to struggle to keep an operation going there, where will the passengers come from?

I meant to say DUB as the main prize, SNN possibly a stepping stone to it...

Why do they need Shannon as a stepping stone to Dublin?

Norwegian Air Discussion

Comments