Norwegian Air Discussion

JCX BXC

Just as a side note, if you mix around the fares it a little it's easy to get a fare of only €397.56 return with Aer Lingus, but that fare isn't possible without having a Saturday night stay.

Zonda999

As a Corkonian, I'm glad these finally got the go ahead despite all of the talk being about Cork, it got the least allocation of flights. In a way I'm very surprised that SNN managed to get more services given the lack of competition at ORK and the greater population in the catchment area. I guess ORK is still a totally unknown quantity especially on the American side which I reckon may be the reason.

I didn't go looking for flights yesterday because I've no major interest in going back to the states at the monent (and I won't lie, the strengthening of the dollar versus the euro this past year or two has put me off the states a little as well). Fairplay to those who managed it though. I think the true test of these flights will come in the autumn/winter when all the extra capacity these have put in the Irish market will certainly be tested. Pricing really is pivotal here I believe, the challenge with these flights is to get people to go who wouldn;t have travelled otherwise, partly by way of the convenience of direct flights, but also cost.

The pricing must be consistently cheaper than the legacies as well. This is the bit I'm really interested in. We don't have much in terms of a frame of reference for this but I did some searching on skyscanner at direct flights from any London airport to any NYC area airport (Worth mentioning that skyscanner don't include SWF in this description but it doesn't matter because Norweigan only fly LGW - JFK) for November 2017. If you go for the lowfare+ option (which is comparable to legacy economy class I guess), it wasn't the cheapest any date of three dates checked. Obviously we're not comparing like with like here because they use JFK in this case and not SWF. If you did not include the checked bag and got the lowest fare possible, they were cheapest on two of the three dates checked. Then again on the otherside, the cheaper legacy fares were from LHR and not LGW

So honestly I'm just not sure . Obviously, they won't be paying much in terms of fees at SWF or PVD and using narrowbody aircraft will add to the business case. My gut feeling si that in general, there will be little to no saving when you add the checked bag but there will be a saving to be made without.

Rocko

I see the usual suspects on this thread still seem to only find the negative aspects of these new transatlantic flights.

JCX BXC

Rocko wrote: »

I see the usual suspects on this thread still seem to only find the negative aspects of these new transatlantic flights.

Ah sure, well all just pretend everything is lovely and rosy!

If valid points are being made, I see no issue. Arguments like this just shut down all discussion and are brutally regressive.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Zonda999

I don't think anyone is being negative for the sake of it. I want these flights to succeed, I really do and I imagine the vast majority do as well.

What I wouldn;t want to happen though (Although I suspect that its an unstoppable phenomenon though) is that to combat this, the legacy carriers begin offering a similar service level fare which automatically becomes the new benchmark in everyones eyes. I think in this situation everyone loses because much of the time people will find themselves paying the same price as before for a flight that now does not include a checked bag and a meal. Honestly, I was surprised that the touted €69 fare includes the 10kg carry on bag. I know that this is not included with WOW air or Wizz air. I think Norweigan play themselves as being at a level slightly above this but I really wouldn't be surpriised if the 10kg carry on became a €15 each way charge in the near future. We all know that half of the 10kg bags (Thats practically evry one on these flights will be bringing) will end up having to go in the hold because there will be no space overhead

EDIT: Looks like the horse has effectively already bolted on this one..

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-to-launch-no-frills-battle-for-transatlantic-trade-1.2987704

gordongekko

elastico wrote: »

On a good day you can be through immigration and end up waiting for your bags = no time wasted at all.

On the other hand you should be in Dublin earlier to pre clear so it could be slower overall than clearing stateside.

As you say its not as beneficial as its often made out to be.

In a Trump led U.S.A its beneficial to clear customs here rather than get stopped in the states.

JCX BXC

gordongekko wrote: »

In a Trump led U.S.A its beneficial to clear customs here rather than get stopped in the states.

Why exactly?

You're hardly going to be sent to Guantanamo bay?

737max

If this model is shown to work then Ryanair (assuming no political or regulatory block driven by incumbents) can copy it very quickly.
They just have to hold on to some of the older aircraft in the fleet rather than selling them off and divert some of the arriving 737Maxes to transatlantic service.
Ryanair can make more money on full planes in the E.U. but the market is quite saturated and if Ryanair are to grow they need to find new markets.
They've tried north Africa and looked at Turkey but can't get good traction there due to political instability where as they don't have to worry so much about that with the US and Canada.
Either they accelerate putting European Competitors out of business to win market share or else they go after other markets like transatlantic or down to 100 seater planes(still waiting on the right plane at the right price there) serving routes where they can't fill a 200 seater 737max.

gordongekko

JCX BXC wrote: »

Why exactly?

You're hardly going to be sent to Guantanamo bay?

You may be arrested put in handcuffs, detained and deported. Id much rather if there was an issue to be stuck here than detained over there.

Zonda999

737max wrote: »

If this model is shown to work then Ryanair (assuming no political or regulatory block driven by incumbents) can copy it very quickly.
They just have to hold on to some of the older aircraft in the fleet rather than selling them off and divert some of the arriving 737Maxes to transatlantic service.
Ryanair can make more money on full planes in the E.U. but the market is quite saturated and if Ryanair are to grow they need to find new markets.
They've tried north Africa and looked at Turkey but can't get good traction there due to political instability where as they don't have to worry so much about that with the US and Canada.
Either they accelerate putting European Competitors out of business to win market share or else they go after other markets like transatlantic or down to 100 seater planes(still waiting on the right plane at the right price there) serving routes where they can't fill a 200 seater 737max.

This is true but I doubt MOL would be in any hurry to copy this. He would wait and see if Norwegian are actually able to make money with this. He can copy this relatively quickly as you say, but I think tbey'd want to be more asusred of success before diverting 737MAX deliveries to any side venture like this

737max

Ryanair don't pay dividends as a general rule. They are running out of opportunities to grow turnover. There are only so many share buybacks they can do. They have little scope left to cut their costs more as they are near as lean as they can be.
Being a publicly listed company they have to be showing growth to justify their share price and driving the price higher.

There is more pressure on them than you'd think. It isn't coming from the competitors, it is coming from the investors' insatiable appetite for growth because Ryanair are never going to be a blue chip stock that pays a dividend.

Norweigan should be very afraid of Ryanair as they will pursue any growth opportunites aggressively.

Jamie2k9

Just a FYI on the €69-€119 fares (one way(, there was just around 1,950 available yesterday split between ROI airports based on capacity for travel over 8 months:
DUB - 58.9%
SNN - 24.6%
ORK - 16.4%

JCX BXC

gordongekko wrote: »

You may be arrested put in handcuffs, detained and deported. Id much rather if there was an issue to be stuck here than detained over there.

Nothing to do with trump though.

bk

737max wrote: »

They just have to hold on to some of the older aircraft in the fleet rather than selling them off and divert some of the arriving 737Maxes to transatlantic service.
Ryanair can make more money on full planes in the E.U. but the market is quite saturated and if Ryanair are to grow they need to find new markets.

But aren't Ryanair getting Max 200 rather then Max 8? I know their are variants of the same design, but the Max 200 seems to have significantly shorter range then the Max 8. 2,700 nmi versus 3,515 nmi according to wiki. Not long enough for TA.

Maybe they could reconfigure the Max 200 with less seats to reach the same range, though I'm not sure if that would still make enough of a difference. Certainly doesn't seem like to could simply switch in some of the Max-200 aircraft onto these TA routes.

However given how big and important a customer they are for Boeing, maybe they could swap some of their Max 200 slots for Max 8 slots.

BTW as an aside, the Max 200 looks like it could play a big part in Ryanair killing off more of it's European competitors. 8 more passengers, yet 20% more fuel efficient would be a big win for Ryanair and allow them to push prices even lower.

Noxegon

737max wrote: »

They've tried north Africa and looked at Turkey but can't get good traction there due to political instability where as they don't have to worry so much about that with the US

Eh, have you watched the news in the last six months?

Gaoth Laidir

The Max 8 isn't yet ETOPS-rated (will be by the end of the year) so flights this summer will average around 30 minutes longer than after it gets certification. Those will have a small but not insignificant effect on fares.

Zonda999

https://leehamnews.com/2016/09/14/maxs-first-mission-cross-atlantic/

I'm sure this article was probably mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread but I just came across it. A nice short read. Doesn;t make any mention of runway length though and i'd be interested if they'll be able to take a full plane ex ORK

JCX BXC

There was 320 seats available at €69 yesterday on the ORK-PVD flights, which is an average of 3.85 seats per flight.

I think this says alot about Norwegian and it's strategy. Fully commend them for it though it's smart.

737max

Noxegon wrote: »

Eh, have you watched the news in the last six months?

light skinned comparatively wealthy Europeans are generally safe in US...few jihadists looking for an easy mark or at least that is the perception amongst the travelling public which is why transatlantic has more promise than north Africa or turkey, near middle east.

kevinandrew

bk wrote: »

BTW as an aside, the Max 200 looks like it could play a big part in Ryanair killing off more of it's European competitors. 8 more passengers, yet 20% more fuel efficient would be a big win for Ryanair and allow them to push prices even lower.

That's one of the reasons why Wizz Air has already started taking delivery of A321s, currently they have 12 in service fitted with 230 seats (Aer Lingus only fit 212 seats) and starting in 2019 Wizz starts receiving A321neo's with a planned capacity of 240 seats!

ED E

Any chance we'll see 787s to the states from Dublin (Not necessarily under Norwegian) ?

marno21

ED E wrote: »

Any chance we'll see 787s to the states from Dublin (Not necessarily under Norwegian) ?

One of the two Ethopian flights that arrives into Dublin every morning around 0400 is a 787. Stops in Dublin before proceeding to the States.

ED E

marno21 wrote: »

One of the two Ethopian flights that arrives into Dublin every morning around 0400 is a 787. Stops in Dublin before proceeding to the States.

Oh, cool. When I looked up the routes didnt check stopovers

Jamie2k9

ED E wrote: »

Any chance we'll see 787s to the states from Dublin (Not necessarily under Norwegian) ?

American from early July.

rabjoshu

What will the Norwegian planes do for the 7+ hours on the ground in Ireland?
Pvd-Ork timetable shows arrival 0845 and depart 1620. That's seven hours on the ground doing very little.
Same query for Snn and Dub

Captain_Crash

rabjoshu wrote: »

What will the Norwegian planes do for the 7+ hours on the ground in Ireland?
Pvd-Ork timetable shows arrival 0845 and depart 1620. That's seven hours on the ground doing very little.
Same query for Snn and Dub

Maybe rotate them out between flights currently arriving and departing to and from CPH/OSL/HEL? might they be going MAX too? I'm actually making this up as I type.. but any guess is a good guess I suppose

JCX BXC

Prices have fallen again slightly on the Us services compared to what they were a few days ago, fares are more reasonable now.

Savings aren't significant, I couldn't justify using them over Aer Lingus/The US3 but some others may.

Tenger

kevinandrew wrote: »

That's one of the reasons why Wizz Air has already started taking delivery of A321s, currently they have 12 in service fitted with 230 seats (Aer Lingus only fit 212 seats) and starting in 2019 Wizz starts receiving A321neo's with a planned capacity of 240 seats!

Bloody hell. AFAIK Aer Lingus have approx 250 in their A332's

rabjoshu

Norwegian have said there'll be no wifi or power outlets or usb outlets on their tatl 787s! :eek:

KCAccidental

rabjoshu wrote: »

Norwegian have said there'll be no wifi or power outlets or usb outlets on their tatl 787s! :eek:

thought this was a more interesting tidbit from the article

Finally, but importantly, the early flights will spend longer in-flight due to certification requirements. Norwegian indicated that its initial 737 MAX deliveries will enter service without ETOPS certification in place. That means it will need to take a longer flight path to stay within 60 minutes of a diversion airport as the plane crosses the Atlantic Ocean. Such routings are possible thanks to airports in Iceland and Greenland but they require less efficient flight paths and extra time in the air for passengers.

kub

Does this mean that they have no ETOPS rated 737Max planes currently? Who says they cannot reallocate some of their existing planes from other routes that are ETOPS rated?

BZ

kub wrote: »

Does this mean that they have no ETOPS rated 737Max planes currently? Who says they cannot reallocate some of their existing planes from other routes that are ETOPS rated?

The Max has not entered service yet. Once Norwegian receive their first aircraft they will have to perform a series of ETOPS proving runs to show they can operate the aircraft to the standard required.

Savman

Hopping the pond in a 737 that's not ETOPS certified, some folks like to live on the edge :pac:

Tenger

Savman wrote: »

Hopping the pond in a 737 that's not ETOPS certified, some folks like to live on the edge :pac:

Yeah, the edge of the North Atlantic.
Its not a big deal really, 30 mins extra each way.
As noted above, they will be providing the ETOPS testing during the first couple of months of operation. Somewhat similar to what Aer Lingus did with the A333 back in 1994 for Airbus.
We already have B737s going across the Atlantic, this is just a new model.

Gaoth Laidir

Here are the 53 aircraft they have on the Irish register (as of 28th Feb 2017).

flanzer

Tenger wrote: »

Yeah, the edge of the North Atlantic.
Its not a big deal really, 30 mins extra each way.
As noted above, they will be providing the ETOPS testing during the first couple of months of operation. Somewhat similar to what Aer Lingus did with the A333 back in 1994 for Airbus.
We already have B737s going across the Atlantic, this is just a new model.

It's something TA carriers ex DUB and SNN could use to their advertising advantage though. 30 mins extra per flight, 1 hour - 1 1/2 hours transfer to main cities. There are plenty of customers out there that wouldn't know what ETOPS certification is. Others carriers could throw it out there that Norwegian aren't fully certified to go TA, and they wouldn't be lying!

LiamaDelta

flanzer wrote: »

Others carriers could throw it out there that Norwegian aren't fully certified to go TA, and they wouldn't be lying!

But they would be lying...there's no such thing as 'not fully certified' you're either certified or not certified.
Either way, carriers rarely (if ever) criticise others when it comes to safety issues and/or certification, for obvious reasons. They certainly would be ill-advised to try using something like that as a selling point.

highlydebased

Confirmed by Shannon that they will be using preclearance there

http://www.clare.fm/news/shannon-airport-shortlisted-prestigious-international-award/ around the 4 min mark

JCX BXC

Could they be inaccurate? I understood that pre-clearance closes at 3pm.

highlydebased

JCX BXC wrote: »

Could they be inaccurate? I understood that pre-clearance closes at 3pm.

Would be quite an inaccuracy for a head of aviation marketing or whatever he is to say he wants to dispel rumours they won't be using it and for them to then not actually use it!

JCX BXC

highlydebased wrote: »

Would be quite an inaccuracy for a head of aviation marketing or whatever he is to say he wants to dispel rumours they won't be using it and for them to then not actually use it!

That's true,

I have personally seen staff trying to route people from the Kuwait flight through the locked and closed USPC, much to the confusion of the Kuwaitis, many of whom had poor English.

Although the Aviation development head has the job of developing aviation for Shannon, but may not have the best idea of operational procedures, especially if they have little involvement in them.

rabjoshu

Appears that Ryanair and Norwegian are close to a code-sharing deal.
Ryanair will fly people from Europe to Lgw, Bcn, Ork etc to embark Norwegian to the US.
http://www.express.co.uk/travel/articles/780182/ryanair-flights-new-york-norwegian

MoeJay

It would appear that the proof of the pudding is in the eating...is there any news or data out there about the performance of the aircraft, even in testing?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/norwegian-boss-casts-doubt-on-cork-new-york-447266.html

...the fact that Kjos received an award for "outstanding contribution" to Irish aviation tells you exactly what the IAA consider to be an "outstanding contribution."

Impetus

MoeJay wrote: »

It would appear that the proof of the pudding is in the eating...is there any news or data out there about the performance of the aircraft, even in testing?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/norwegian-boss-casts-doubt-on-cork-new-york-447266.html

...the fact that Kjos received an award for "outstanding contribution" to Irish aviation tells you exactly what the IAA consider to be an "outstanding contribution."

In the same article you mention, Norwegian's Kjos is reported as recently questioning the ability of the 737 MAX to land at Cork Airport, given the short runway length. The southerly runway is only 2'133m long.
Norwegian has been talking about creating a route from ORK to a NY area airport for several years.


If I was thinking of buying a new car in the morning, and had a small garage, the first thing I would look at is the dimensions of the car relative to the dimensions of my garage. Even more critical if one was spending $100 million on a new aircraft to serve a new route, dimensions and in particular runway length should be one of the first questions.


This make one wonder to oneself if Norwegian is an honest company. Also, when I was looking up the performance of the 737 MAX its maximum speed is only 840 km/h. Which is very slow for a mid-size commercial jet. It made me wonder if the engine manufacturers are putting a limiter on the speed, to generate a 'low fuel consumption' jet engine? I often find myself on short-haul European flights travelling at 900 km/h and above.

Finally, the constraining factor in expanding Cork airport seems to me the short runway length, Is it not about time they looked at adding 250 m to each end of the runway to make it more viable for a greater range of aircraft? When you see Ryanair's apparent willingness to act as a feeder airline to Norwegian and others the added traffic potential for an airport like Cork would be enormous.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/norwegian-boss-casts-doubt-on-cork-new-york-447266.html

Oasis1974

Was led to believe a runway extension was off the cards at Cork being close to a hill and a road on the adjacent end?

flanzer

Yeah, I broke my b0ll0x laughing last night on Twitter when they were awarded outstanding achievement. Internationally, maybe yes, but in terms of Irish aviation? Sure any of the newer airlines to the country could have won that! The IAA seem to be salivating over him on their Twitter feed too

NH2013

I think the runway length issue could have been seen from a mile off, but there was no using logic or reason to deter the crowds screaming for "Cheap Fares across the Atlantic!!". Now the flood gates have been opened to the illegitimate labour practices Norwegian employs, and little can be done to stop it, and the crowd that were screaming so loudly for these cheap fares won't see any of them.

MoeJay

I don't doubt their honesty for one minute. However it might the prelude to a softening of the argument on the economics of even the PVD route for the same reason...

No ORK-SWF means less crew based in Ireland too? Oh wait...

Jamie2k9

Anyone know if A321 NEO has better performance than 737 MAX.

They usually tend to do better of small runways.