GAA Infastructure

Pete_Cavan · 04-02-2015 12:42pm

I don’t see the need for a “main Connacht stadium”, the Connacht final is only one game a year and it does not make sense to have a stadium just for that. All counties need a decent stadium anyway to host both club and county games so these grounds should not be neglected. In this case, I think there is better value for money in spreading funding across the three grounds rather than focusing it on one project.

McHale Park only really needs seating replaced which will not be hugely expensive and longer term a roof on uncovered sides. Pearse Stadium is in a bad location and the site is restricted so longer term the plan should be to relocate (perhaps a shared stadium with Connacht Rugby). The Hyde is in need of major renovation but 18,000 capacity will be sufficient for all but the odd match a year, the ability to temporarily increase capacity would be better than building large stands which will rarely be filled.

iDave · 04-02-2015 4:32pm

Don't see a point myself in changing how provincial final venues are chosen. In Leinster and Ulster its a centralised stadium and in Munster and Connacht it rotates. Each to their own. We just need to be more clever in where we schedule other certain games to take place to guarantee more big games and make any new development/investment/refurbishment worth the money.
My ideas include playing league semis in the home ground of 1st and 2nd in the league. Div 2, 3 and 4 finals to be played in the home ground of 1st in the league.
H&A agreements to be the norm all the way to provincial SF level. Should apply to Dublin where possible.
Qualifier Round 4s to be played in home ground of provincial final loser.
AI QFs to be played in home ground of provincial champions providing they have a capacity of 25-30k, if not they can nominate another ground in the province i.e. Sligo opt for McHale, Donegal opt for Clones/Casement.
In hurling the provincial losers get home advantage in the 'QF' and similar home advantages apply to various finals, SFs and play offs.

Pete_Cavan · 04-02-2015 6:05pm

iDave wrote: »

Don't see a point myself in changing how provincial final venues are chosen. In Leinster and Ulster its a centralised stadium and in Munster and Connacht it rotates. Each to their own. We just need to be more clever in where we schedule other certain games to take place to guarantee more big games and make any new development/investment/refurbishment worth the money.
My ideas include playing league semis in the home ground of 1st and 2nd in the league. Div 2, 3 and 4 finals to be played in the home ground of 1st in the league.
H&A agreements to be the norm all the way to provincial SF level. Should apply to Dublin where possible.
Qualifier Round 4s to be played in home ground of provincial final loser.
AI QFs to be played in home ground of provincial champions providing they have a capacity of 25-30k, if not they can nominate another ground in the province i.e. Sligo opt for McHale, Donegal opt for Clones/Casement.
In hurling the provincial losers get home advantage in the 'QF' and similar home advantages apply to various finals, SFs and play offs.

Where is the efficiency in that, given each county will need to be capable of hosting big(ish) games? How does this Connacht stadium negate the need for redevelopment at the Hyde or improvements at Pearse stadium?

McHale Park is the obvious choice for the Connacht stadium due to it already having a large capacity and needing the least amount of work but for a Galway Roscommon final that capacity would not be needed attendances would be well down if they are forced to travel to Castlebar.

It makes even less sense in Munster where there are more big games. Thurles is going to remain a main stadium but why should Kerry constantly have to travel to Thurles to play Munster finals?

Putting all the eggs into one stadium basket does not make sense, it doesn’t really save money but will damage attendances. A lot more sensible is to have flexible stadiums where capacity can be increased for a big game. Look at Tallaght Stadium, it has a permanent capacity of 6,000 but capacity was increased to 10,900 for one game. The same principal should be applied to grounds like the Hyde.

Frankie Lee · 05-02-2015 12:15am

Out of sheer boredom and in spite of my extremely limited skills I've decided to design a redeveloped Conleth's Park. A lot of work still to do. Going for a 7650 all seater with the possibility of temporary terracing for big games to boost capacity.

klairondavis · 05-02-2015 12:37am

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Out of sheer boredom and in spite of my extremely limited skills I've decided to design a redeveloped Conleth's Park. A lot of work still to do. Going for a 7650 all seater with the possibility of temporary terracing for big games to boost capacity.

All we have to do is find a few euros to buy out Bord na Mona on one side and all the houses on Liffey View on the Barracks side and then fund the building of the thing!

We were supposed to have moved in here by 2010:

Frankie Lee · 05-02-2015 12:49am

I was hoping that by moving the stands close to pitch side it would create enough room and be on the same sight line as the current terrace on the liffey view side of the pitch. Could do with getting a little strip off BNM definitely.

klairondavis · 05-02-2015 12:55am

I would love to know if there is a reason why the currant Barracks terrace just stops between the 45 and the 21 at the Kilcullen end. They have only recently fenced off that grass bank for some reason. The Athgarvan road is dips down well behind the back wall of the stadium at that corner after Ryston. It's also very close to the Liffey on the far side of the road.

blue note · 08-04-2015 11:08am

http://balls.ie/gaa/government-concerns-cast-major-doubt-on-pairc-ui-chaoimh-redevelopment-3245235/

They're going ahead with it despite government funding being unsure? Seems daft to me.

Anyway, I'd be amazed if their projections are realistic. How many big games has the stadium seen over the last number of years? Definitely not enough to warrant it's existence as a 45k capacity.

Mehapoy · 08-04-2015 11:26am

blue note wrote: »

http://balls.ie/gaa/government-concerns-cast-major-doubt-on-pairc-ui-chaoimh-redevelopment-3245235/

They're going ahead with it despite government funding being unsure? Seems daft to me.

Anyway, I'd be amazed if their projections are realistic. How many big games has the stadium seen over the last number of years? Definitely not enough to warrant it's existence as a 45k capacity.

I think they'd be better off going for a mini alternative to croke park, 25-30k capacity, all mod cons, even a roof if budget allowed. would be big enough to hold any non Munster final hurling and all football games in Munster, would be suitable for league finals, even an all ticket Munster hurling final once in awhile would do no harm...they'd get more games than building a mammoth stadium where creature comforts come last after trying to make it as big as possible to compete with Thurles and limerick...

Hibbeler · 08-04-2015 11:55am

Mehapoy wrote: »

I think they'd be better off going for a mini alternative to croke park, 25-30k capacity, all mod cons, even a roof if budget allowed. would be big enough to hold any non Munster final hurling and all football games in Munster, would be suitable for league finals, even an all ticket Munster hurling final once in awhile would do no harm...they'd get more games than building a mammoth stadium where creature comforts come last after trying to make it as big as possible to compete with Thurles and limerick...

Agree 100% it should not be the case that increased capacity comes at the expense of quality and spectator experience and comfort.

I think the blueprint for any future developments should be good quality small grounds. For most counties 10-15k capacity is more than enough. Make them all seater but with rail type seating which can be converted to standing for big matches if need be behind the goals.

I actually think the Thomand Park model would be perfect for any new/redeveloped GAA ground

iDave · 08-04-2015 11:59am

Yes I agree with Mehapoy and Hibbeler . Modest capacity but build to a high standard. Instead we get high capacity but a low standard. The fact that O'Connor Park is held up as some sort of template says it all. One roof, the other side terraced and nothing behind one of the goals.

Pete_Cavan · 08-04-2015 12:30pm

I don’t see why capacity is should come into this. More than half of the capacity of the stadium is contained in the terraces behind the goals which are not being rebuilt. A new main stand is to be built which is absolutely necessary, the existing stand is a disgrace, the facilities are awful and the access/egress routes are pose serious safety risks. The stand opposite is also terrible, under the plans this will have its capacity reduced and works will be minimal, probably just new concrete to change the profile and installing new seating with increased leg room.

Realistically, reducing the capacity wont reduce the costs by a significant amount, the existing main stand still needs to be demolished and an entirely new stand built. Most of the cost here is largely fixed, they will still need to demolish the stand and build a new structure with roof, modern changing rooms, medical area, hosting and media facilities, etc. Reducing the number of seats isn’t going to make a huge difference to the budget, there is a substantial fixed cost and cutting corners elsewhere probably give a worse cost benefit analysis than the current plan. The money is being spent on providing a high quality stand which will have a fairly modest capacity.

The other seated stand needs upgrading and it is having its capacity reduced anyway. The capacity of the terraces is largely irrelevant, they are not getting much (any?) money spent on them anyway, the capacity is what it is and can be reduced by simply saying, in future, we are only allowing 80% of the current capacity in.

The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is entitled, and indeed obligated, to ensure money is being spent wisely, but if they had concerns these should have been raised much earlier and the Minister for Public Expenditure should not have promised the money. Surely the maintenance and running costs are with the Cork County Board anyway, this is just a once off capital investment from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport which seems appropriate to me.

nice_guy80 · 08-04-2015 1:12pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I don’t see why capacity is should come into this. More than half of the capacity of the stadium is contained in the terraces behind the goals which are not being rebuilt. A new main stand is to be built which is absolutely necessary, the existing stand is a disgrace, the facilities are awful and the access/egress routes are pose serious safety risks. The stand opposite is also terrible, under the plans this will have its capacity reduced and works will be minimal, probably just new concrete to change the profile and installing new seating with increased leg room.

Realistically, reducing the capacity wont reduce the costs by a significant amount, the existing main stand still needs to be demolished and an entirely new stand built. Most of the cost here is largely fixed, they will still need to demolish the stand and build a new structure with roof, modern changing rooms, medical area, hosting and media facilities, etc. Reducing the number of seats isn’t going to make a huge difference to the budget, there is a substantial fixed cost and cutting corners elsewhere probably give a worse cost benefit analysis than the current plan. The money is being spent on providing a high quality stand which will have a fairly modest capacity.

The other seated stand needs upgrading and it is having its capacity reduced anyway. The capacity of the terraces is largely irrelevant, they are not getting much (any?) money spent on them anyway, the capacity is what it is and can be reduced by simply saying, in future, we are only allowing 80% of the current capacity in.

The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is entitled, and indeed obligated, to ensure money is being spent wisely, but if they had concerns these should have been raised much earlier and the Minister for Public Expenditure should not have promised the money. Surely the maintenance and running costs are with the Cork County Board anyway, this is just a once off capital investment from the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport which seems appropriate to me.

Put simply, in a cost v benefit analysis the PUC development doesn't work

Pete_Cavan · 08-04-2015 3:12pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Put simply, in a cost v benefit analysis the PUC development doesn't work

All the talk has been about how the capacity is too high and unnecessary. My point is that the money is not being spent on the capacity; the terraces behind the goals already account for 24k, the uncovered seated stand is being reduced from 10k to 8k, that gives a capacity of 32k with minimal works which are necessary. A new main stand, which is needed, is going to push capacity over 40k anyway.

Demolishing the existing main stand and building a good quality new stand with modern facilities is going to cost tens of millions anyway. Building a basic stand with no other facilities will mean that nothing will happen there on non-match days but a good chunk of the CBA is based on somethings happening on non-match days. You can reduce costs but it is possible that that will reduce the benefits by an even greater amount. Whether the existing plan is worth the money they plan to spend is obviously questionable. The fact remains that a new stand is needed which is going to incur a substantial cost and this will give a capacity of >40k.

iDave · 10-04-2015 12:53pm

Plans for Cusack Park in Ennis

http://www.gilroymcmahon.com/projects/sporting/cusack-pk.htm

nice_guy80 · 10-04-2015 12:59pm

iDave wrote: »

Plans for Cusack Park in Ennis

http://www.gilroymcmahon.com/projects/sporting/cusack-pk.htm

only concept drawings
where are the plans?

blue note · 10-04-2015 1:45pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

All the talk has been about how the capacity is too high and unnecessary. My point is that the money is not being spent on the capacity; the terraces behind the goals already account for 24k, the uncovered seated stand is being reduced from 10k to 8k, that gives a capacity of 32k with minimal works which are necessary. A new main stand, which is needed, is going to push capacity over 40k anyway.

Demolishing the existing main stand and building a good quality new stand with modern facilities is going to cost tens of millions anyway. Building a basic stand with no other facilities will mean that nothing will happen there on non-match days but a good chunk of the CBA is based on somethings happening on non-match days. You can reduce costs but it is possible that that will reduce the benefits by an even greater amount. Whether the existing plan is worth the money they plan to spend is obviously questionable. The fact remains that a new stand is needed which is going to incur a substantial cost and this will give a capacity of >40k.

A fair point, but the more I think of it what's the reason for them having a stadium of that size anyway? Pairc Ui Rinn would surely be suitable for any league or club games. Then Thurles / Limerick are already plenty for the amount of Munster championship games that are played each year.

I'm not happy to see 35m of my taxpayers money going into this, or any GAA money. Why not just knock the thing and put down a few pitches there? That would actually be of benefit to people.

Mal-Adjusted · 10-04-2015 4:06pm

iDave wrote: »

Plans for Cusack Park in Ennis

http://www.gilroymcmahon.com/projects/sporting/cusack-pk.htm

Surely this is a pipe dream? Unless they're planning to sell the existing site and move out of the town, there's simply no room. even then, we don't NEED a 28'000 capacity stadium.

salmocab · 10-04-2015 6:14pm

I know this might be a bit rich coming from a Dub with all the benefits of having Croker here, but does anyone else think that a lot of the projects that the various counties try to get going are almost always too big or ambitious for whats really needed. It seems that there is always someone trying to build a stadium thats only likely to be filled once or twice a year at best or a centre of excellence that probably isn't really needed considering the facilities that a lot of clubs already have in place. I think a lot of this cash would be better spent on club facilities or even coaching standards which would have a better long term effect for all.

threeball · 10-04-2015 6:38pm

salmocab wrote: »

I know this might be a bit rich coming from a Dub with all the benefits of having Croker here, but does anyone else think that a lot of the projects that the various counties try to get going are almost always too big or ambitious for whats really needed. It seems that there is always someone trying to build a stadium thats only likely to be filled once or twice a year at best or a centre of excellence that probably isn't really needed considering the facilities that a lot of clubs already have in place. I think a lot of this cash would be better spent on club facilities or even coaching standards which would have a better long term effect for all.

I've said it before, every county should have a high quality 7-10,000 seater stadium with stands, a top quality pitch, dressing area and floodlights and play out a proper league throughout the chamionship with 10 - 12 counties per division.
There should then be one mini croker 40,000 stadium in each province that would host all the championship matches up to quarter finals. The experience for the players and fans would be better, the atmosphere would be better, the quality of games would be better and the revenue and financial situation of counties would be better.
If everyone goes off and builds these white elephants it will have the exact opposite effect on our games. At the rate we're going we'll have a larger total capacity than the premier league with less than 1/10th the attendance and games.

Hibbeler · 11-04-2015 3:20am

salmocab wrote: »

I know this might be a bit rich coming from a Dub with all the benefits of having Croker here, but does anyone else think that a lot of the projects that the various counties try to get going are almost always too big or ambitious for whats really needed. It seems that there is always someone trying to build a stadium thats only likely to be filled once or twice a year at best or a centre of excellence that probably isn't really needed considering the facilities that a lot of clubs already have in place. I think a lot of this cash would be better spent on club facilities or even coaching standards which would have a better long term effect for all.

To be honest how often is croker filled other than all Ireland finals? A few 60k attendances maybe?

As someone who comes from Meath. I love croke park but its come to the stage where we pay too many matches there and the rest of the grounds in Leinster have largely suffered.

I mean for a county with the size and footballing tradition to not have a Leinster championship home match in over 15 years just shows how dominant croke park is.

salmocab · 11-04-2015 7:29am

Hibbeler wrote: »

To be honest how often is croker filled other than all Ireland finals? A few 60k attendances maybe?

As someone who comes from Meath. I love croke park but its come to the stage where we pay too many matches there and the rest of the grounds in Leinster have largely suffered.

I mean for a county with the size and footballing tradition to not have a Leinster championship home match in over 15 years just shows how dominant croke park is.

I fully agree, I just think that some of the projects that are planned are too big. I would love Dublin to have a stadium of about 25 to 30 thousand but with Croker sitting there it would be a waste of money. Counties like Meath certainly need a decent home stadium and to use it in the leinster championship but there is no point in having say a 40,000 capacity stadium in Navan that might at best be full once or twice a year. Better to build a smaller stadium with great facilities and pitch.

nice_guy80 · 11-04-2015 9:48am

I think GAA planners need to realise they don't have to have a big enough ground for all games.

by having a smaller capacity for some games, it generates demand and forces advance ticket sales, therefore improving planning for a game - programs, food outlets, stewards etc

GoldFour4 · 11-04-2015 2:05pm

You'd wonder what is going on in the minds of the GAA when you see plans for a 28,000 capacity stadium in Ennis. When would that ever be used except once in an absolute blue moon. Semple Stadium is rarely anywhere near capacity but yet we continue to put forward more stadiums. The Cusack Park one in particular looks like the county board just want something pretty to look at. I just looked at it again there, a VIP area included in it, christ.

Pete_Cavan · 11-04-2015 2:27pm

It is true that many counties have been preparing plans that are too ambitious for what they really needed, as illustrated by the Clare proposals above. The idea that every county should have a 10k capacity stadium ignores the fact that most grounds already exceed that due to size of terraces. Really, what most counties need is one good quality main stand to go with the existing terraces. Temporary seating should be planned for the odd time a greater capacity is needed. The mini croker in each province doesnt stack up either, you wont get as big a crowd as you should in Castlebar for a Galway Roscommon Connaucht final, or in Thurles for a Cork Kerry Munster final.

Meath, as mentioned earlier, is a good example of a county with poor facilities but cant improve because they constantly have to travel to Dublin for big games. All Pairc Tailteann really needs is a new main stand, similar to that in Tullamore, to give a capacity of ~15k. The grass banks behind the goals should be dug out and levelled off and left at that with the option of installing temporary seating behind the goals in future for one off big games, i.e. the Dubs coming to town. The same applies to most county grounds like the Hyde, Markievicz Park, etc. Of course, it would help if more smaller games were moved out of Croker, this years Div 3 & 4 finals for example, should be played in Cavan or Navan, due to the proximity of those involved, where they could actually fill the stadium.

Cork is different imo. Cork needs a good quality stadium, it would be ridiculous to expect Cork to have to travel to Limerick or Thurles for every biggish game. Cork has a huge GAA population and are competitive across football, hurling, ladies football and camogie, Cork people should be able to watch some of those games in Cork. The good thing about the PUC proposals is that it is more than just a stadium that is used the odd weekend, the new stand will also include seating facing the all weather pitch, a gym, county board offices, conference facilities and a cafe and museum to attract tourists and those using the Marina Park. No doubt it will also host several concerts over the summer.

threeball · 11-04-2015 7:44pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It is true that many counties have been preparing plans that are too ambitious for what they really needed, as illustrated by the Clare proposals above. The idea that every county should have a 10k capacity stadium ignores the fact that most grounds already exceed that due to size of terraces. Really, what most counties need is one good quality main stand to go with the existing terraces. Temporary seating should be planned for the odd time a greater capacity is needed. The mini croker in each province doesnt stack up either, you wont get as big a crowd as you should in Castlebar for a Galway Roscommon Connaucht final, or in Thurles for a Cork Kerry Munster final.

Meath, as mentioned earlier, is a good example of a county with poor facilities but cant improve because they constantly have to travel to Dublin for big games. All Pairc Tailteann really needs is a new main stand, similar to that in Tullamore, to give a capacity of ~15k. The grass banks behind the goals should be dug out and levelled off and left at that with the option of installing temporary seating behind the goals in future for one off big games, i.e. the Dubs coming to town. The same applies to most county grounds like the Hyde, Markievicz Park, etc. Of course, it would help if more smaller games were moved out of Croker, this years Div 3 & 4 finals for example, should be played in Cavan or Navan, due to the proximity of those involved, where they could actually fill the stadium.

Cork is different imo. Cork needs a good quality stadium, it would be ridiculous to expect Cork to have to travel to Limerick or Thurles for every biggish game. Cork has a huge GAA population and are competitive across football, hurling, ladies football and camogie, Cork people should be able to watch some of those games in Cork. The good thing about the PUC proposals is that it is more than just a stadium that is used the odd weekend, the new stand will also include seating facing the all weather pitch, a gym, county board offices, conference facilities and a cafe and museum to attract tourists and those using the Marina Park. No doubt it will also host several concerts over the summer.

You missed the point of my post entirely. County stadiums should be only used for league/club finals. Having grounds that can handle chamionship matches in every county is a waste of money and virtually no one wants to stand on a terrace on a wet february sunday.

The fact that most counties exceed that capacity at the moment ignores the fact that pretty much all bar Croker are pretty crap with no fan facilities and various qualities of pitch. Put money into things that matter not building a stadium on the off chance it might get filled once every six years.

Btw I never said the mini crokers in each province had to have identical capacities, the one in connaught may well be 30k while the one in munster (probably a fully revamped Semple could be 45k). You build what you need. Cork for example could have a very nice 15 or 20k stadium and still have concerts etc but their attendences don't warrant any more that that. Its already come out this week they've been massaging the figures so they can justify the new stadium and it doesn't stack up

Pete_Cavan · 11-04-2015 11:11pm

threeball wrote: »

You missed the point of my post entirely. County stadiums should be only used for league/club finals. Having grounds that can handle chamionship matches in every county is a waste of money and virtually no one wants to stand on a terrace on a wet february sunday.

The fact that most counties exceed that capacity at the moment ignores the fact that pretty much all bar Croker are pretty crap with no fan facilities and various qualities of pitch. Put money into things that matter not building a stadium on the off chance it might get filled once every six years.

Btw I never said the mini crokers in each province had to have identical capacities, the one in connaught may well be 30k while the one in munster (probably a fully revamped Semple could be 45k). You build what you need. Cork for example could have a very nice 15 or 20k stadium and still have concerts etc but their attendences don't warrant any more that that. Its already come out this week they've been massaging the figures so they can justify the new stadium and it doesn't stack up

First of all, having all but 4 or 5 counties travel for every championship matches will decimate attendances. You basically want 75% of GAA fans to travel for every championship game and any games played at home will be in a stadium which is being allowed to rot. You seem to have very little respect for those who pay into county games (the money which funds most of the associations activities) as you think they either have to travel or put up with crap facilities indefinitely.

What you say might make some sense if we were starting from scratch with stadia. In the real world, existing county grounds are what they are, most have a poor main covered stand with substandard seating and terraces on the other sides. As I said, most grounds really only need a new main stand to hold about 7k, similar to that in Tullamore (to include player, medical, media, etc. facilities). On the other side there is usually already a terrace to hold ~10k. That way, grounds would hold 15 - 17k which would be enough for club, national league and the majority of championship games. As I said, if behind the goals was cleared, temporary seats could be installed to give an extra, say 8k if needed. I am saying plans like those for Cusack Park and a Kildare stadium posted earlier in the thread need to be forgotten and modest improvements made to existing stadia.

threeball · 11-04-2015 11:22pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

First of all, having all but 4 or 5 counties travel for every championship matches will decimate attendances. You basically want 75% of GAA fans to travel for every championship game and any games played at home will be in a stadium which is being allowed to rot. You seem to have very little respect for those who pay into county games (the money which funds most of the associations activities) as you think they either have to travel or put up with crap facilities indefinitely.

What you say might make some sense if we were starting from scratch with stadia. In the real world, existing county grounds are what they are, most have a poor main covered stand with substandard seating and terraces on the other sides. As I said, most grounds really only need a new main stand to hold about 7k, similar to that in Tullamore (to include player, medical, media, etc. facilities). On the other side there is usually already a terrace to hold ~10k. That way, grounds would hold 15 - 17k which would be enough for club, national league and the majority of championship games. As I said, if behind the goals was cleared, temporary seats could be installed to give an extra, say 8k if needed. I am saying plans like those for Cusack Park and a Kildare stadium posted earlier in the thread need to be forgotten and modest improvements made to existing stadia.

How are they being left to rot, they need upgrading to being more than just a hill with concrete on. The type of stadium you propose does nothing for the game as a spectacle. Even high quality games lose their wow factor in half empty stadiums just look at Croke park. Premiership teams build stadiums that suit their attendence needs, rugby teams do the same as do every other major sport except here in gaa land where we build stadiums where the tumbleweeds make more noise than the crowd.
Look at some of the wonderful small rugby stadia in the UK, a sport with similar attendences to ourselves and buckets more money. In my opinion theres nothing worse than watching a game in a half empty stadium and only championship produces high attendence games. People don't give a damn if they need to travel an hour or an hour and a half to a game once the experience is worth it.

ciarriaithuaidh · 11-04-2015 11:23pm

threeball wrote: »

You missed the point of my post entirely. County stadiums should be only used for league/club finals. Having grounds that can handle chamionship matches in every county is a waste of money and virtually no one wants to stand on a terrace on a wet february sunday.

The fact that most counties exceed that capacity at the moment ignores the fact that pretty much all bar Croker are pretty crap with no fan facilities and various qualities of pitch. Put money into things that matter not building a stadium on the off chance it might get filled once every six years.

Btw I never said the mini crokers in each province had to have identical capacities, the one in connaught may well be 30k while the one in munster (probably a fully revamped Semple could be 45k). You build what you need. Cork for example could have a very nice 15 or 20k stadium and still have concerts etc but their attendences don't warrant any more that that. Its already come out this week they've been massaging the figures so they can justify the new stadium and it doesn't stack up

Just on the bold bit: This project in Cork is far from perfect, I know..but to say that a 20k capacity stadium would suffice is not correct.
Munster Football finals regularly get 30k+ and almost every Cork Hurling championship game gets over 30k also. A Munster final in Páirc uí Chaíomh gets 45k every time.
Cork is also a good neutral venue for hurling games involving Limerick, Clare, Tipp and Waterford.

The project mooted for Ennis seems a bit too much alright. Clare have no need for a 28k capacity stadium. The Gaelic Grounds is within 40 mins drive of almost all Clare hurling clubs I would imagine?

threeball · 11-04-2015 11:47pm

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

Just on the bold bit: This project in Cork is far from perfect, I know..but to say that a 20k capacity stadium would suffice is not correct.
Munster Football finals regularly get 30k+ and almost every Cork Hurling championship game gets over 30k also. A Munster final in Páirc uí Chaíomh gets 45k every time.
Cork is also a good neutral venue for hurling games involving Limerick, Clare, Tipp and Waterford.

The project mooted for Ennis seems a bit too much alright. Clare have no need for a 28k capacity stadium. The Gaelic Grounds is within 40 mins drive of almost all Clare hurling clubs I would imagine?

I dont care if the main stadium is in Cork or Thurles but i assume thurles would be preferred option if there was one high quality stadium with large capacity in munster. We don't need large stadia in killarney, limerick, thurles and Cork. High quality smaller grounds is the way to go and if a game isn't worthy of bringing to Thurles (kerry v waterford for example) then by all means play it in cork in their high end 15-20k stadium. Way better atmosphere for supporters which players react to.

ciarriaithuaidh · 12-04-2015 12:53am

threeball wrote: »

I dont care if the main stadium is in Cork or Thurles but i assume thurles would be preferred option if there was one high quality stadium with large capacity in munster. We don't need large stadia in killarney, limerick, thurles and Cork. High quality smaller grounds is the way to go and if a game isn't worthy of bringing to Thurles (kerry v waterford for example) then by all means play it in cork in their high end 15-20k stadium. Way better atmosphere for supporters which players react to.

I get what you are saying...and starting from scratch again, you might have some good points, but Semple Stadium, Gaelic Grounds, Fitzgerald Stadium are all in existence right now and are not going to be demolished or even downgraded so it's a bit pointless discusing it.

threeball · 12-04-2015 10:52am

ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »

I get what you are saying...and starting from scratch again, you might have some good points, but Semple Stadium, Gaelic Grounds, Fitzgerald Stadium are all in existence right now and are not going to be demolished or even downgraded so it's a bit pointless discusing it.

I'd rather reduce the capacity and increase the quality of the existing white elephants than keep the current mine is bigger than yours policy being persued by county boards. Semple is due a major upgrade if we get the nod for the RWC anyway. If we keep going as we are a huge amount of funds will be hoovered up every year maintaining huge rarely used stadiums. Qatar is following a similar model for their world cup but luckily for them they have billions to pish away.
When things aren't right sometimes its better to go back to the start and begin again.

Pete_Cavan · 12-04-2015 11:02am

threeball wrote: »

How are they being left to rot, they need upgrading to being more than just a hill with concrete on. The type of stadium you propose does nothing for the game as a spectacle. Even high quality games lose their wow factor in half empty stadiums just look at Croke park. Premiership teams build stadiums that suit their attendence needs, rugby teams do the same as do every other major sport except here in gaa land where we build stadiums where the tumbleweeds make more noise than the crowd.
Look at some of the wonderful small rugby stadia in the UK, a sport with similar attendences to ourselves and buckets more money. In my opinion theres nothing worse than watching a game in a half empty stadium and only championship produces high attendence games. People don't give a damn if they need to travel an hour or an hour and a half to a game once the experience is worth it.

The type of stadium I am proposing is an upgrade of existing stadia by building a good quality main stand which has decent seating for fans and good player facilities beneath. This is necessary expenditure given the state of many stands around the country. Players, officials, media and fans deserve a minimum standard of facilities and that is not being met in many places at present. What you are proposing is way more expensive because you want to demolish and remodel every county ground to give a smaller capacity. Look at PUC, your 20k stadium incurs more cost because you have to demolish the terraces behind both goals, why not keep them and have the ground available for bigger games? Take Fitzgerald Stadium/Pairc Tailteann/the Hyde/Wexford Park/several others, your plan to demolish the entire stadium and rebuild a new 10k stadium is a lot more expensive than simply building a new main seated stand and accepting that the terraces are what they are. You also building a few of "mini crokers" around the country which will also be very expensive.

You cant compare GAA stadia to small soccer/rugby stadia in the UK. For a start, they play on a much smaller pitch so can build a compact fully enclosed bowl stadium within not much more than the footprint of a GAA pitch. They also tend to/have to avoid terraces. The perimeter of a GAA pitch is huge, you have 140 - 150m on each side of the pitch alone (almost half the perimeter of a soccer pitch), that length of a stand doesnt have to be very deep to hold a large number of people, especially if standing. A 10k person terrace along the side of a GAA pitch is not actually that big, most grounds have that already. Again a 140m long 7k seated stand isnt that big, especially if it has to accommodate 2 - 4 30 player changing rooms, referees rooms, medical room, stewards room, media room, as well as supporter toilets and kiosks underneath. These are the minimum facilities needed in a county ground these days. When building a structure to accommodate all that, the marginal cost of putting in 1k extra seats is probably quite small given the size of the structure required.

Your plan does not save any money and will only damage attendances and therefore income. Exiling the Kerry and Cork footballers to Semple would destroy the Munster Championship for example. Similarly in Connacht, Galway, Roscommon and Sligo supporters would soon get sick of travelling to Castlebar for Connacht Championship matches even when Mayo are not playing. The same goes for Munster Hurling Championship, while Semple has a great history, the people of Cork, Limerick and Waterford dont want to have to go there for every championship match. You also have to consider the residents of the towns with your "mini crokers", should they have to put up with 20 - 40k people descending on their town on a regular basis? That idea gives the worst of all worlds.

threeball · 12-04-2015 1:58pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The type of stadium I am proposing is an upgrade of existing stadia by building a good quality main stand which has decent seating for fans and good player facilities beneath. This is necessary expenditure given the state of many stands around the country. Players, officials, media and fans deserve a minimum standard of facilities and that is not being met in many places at present. What you are proposing is way more expensive because you want to demolish and remodel every county ground to give a smaller capacity. Look at PUC, your 20k stadium incurs more cost because you have to demolish the terraces behind both goals, why not keep them and have the ground available for bigger games? Take Fitzgerald Stadium/Pairc Tailteann/the Hyde/Wexford Park/several others, your plan to demolish the entire stadium and rebuild a new 10k stadium is a lot more expensive than simply building a new main seated stand and accepting that the terraces are what they are. You also building a few of "mini crokers" around the country which will also be very expensive.

You cant compare GAA stadia to small soccer/rugby stadia in the UK. For a start, they play on a much smaller pitch so can build a compact fully enclosed bowl stadium within not much more than the footprint of a GAA pitch. They also tend to/have to avoid terraces. The perimeter of a GAA pitch is huge, you have 140 - 150m on each side of the pitch alone (almost half the perimeter of a soccer pitch), that length of a stand doesnt have to be very deep to hold a large number of people, especially if standing. A 10k person terrace along the side of a GAA pitch is not actually that big, most grounds have that already. Again a 140m long 7k seated stand isnt that big, especially if it has to accommodate 2 - 4 30 player changing rooms, referees rooms, medical room, stewards room, media room, as well as supporter toilets and kiosks underneath. These are the minimum facilities needed in a county ground these days. When building a structure to accommodate all that, the marginal cost of putting in 1k extra seats is probably quite small given the size of the structure required.

Your plan does not save any money and will only damage attendances and therefore income. Exiling the Kerry and Cork footballers to Semple would destroy the Munster Championship for example. Similarly in Connacht, Galway, Roscommon and Sligo supporters would soon get sick of travelling to Castlebar for Connacht Championship matches even when Mayo are not playing. The same goes for Munster Hurling Championship, while Semple has a great history, the people of Cork, Limerick and Waterford dont want to have to go there for every championship match. You also have to consider the residents of the towns with your "mini crokers", should they have to put up with 20 - 40k people descending on their town on a regular basis? That idea gives the worst of all worlds.

So you basically want a continuation of whats happening at the moment. Building gigantic stands in poor souless football arenas. Castlebar is a prime example. Pearse stadium another, limerick, Roscommon is heading that way, portlaoise. Nowlan park is an example of a nicely developed ground but its a little too large.
The league semis today will be played in a half empty croke park when there could be an electric atmosphere if it was played in an appropriate sized arena in kildare for example.

As for killing the chamionship if people have to travel well thats just a joke. Peple will travel anywhere for big games, its only 4 to 5 occasions in an entire year and thats if you're lucky enough to make a final.

Pete_Cavan · 12-04-2015 3:03pm

threeball wrote: »

So you basically want a continuation of whats happening at the moment. Building gigantic stands in poor souless football arenas. Castlebar is a prime example. Pearse stadium another, limerick, Roscommon is heading that way, portlaoise. Nowlan park is an example of a nicely developed ground but its a little too large.
The league semis today will be played in a half empty croke park when there could be an electric atmosphere if it was played in an appropriate sized arena in kildare for example.

As for killing the chamionship if people have to travel well thats just a joke. Peple will travel anywhere for big games, its only 4 to 5 occasions in an entire year and thats if you're lucky enough to make a final.

How is Pearse Stadium or O'Moore Park different from Nowlan Park, all have similar capacities (Nowlan Park 25k, Pearse Stadium 26k, O'Moore Park 27k)? Why are two "gigantic stands in poor souless arena" but not the other? If anything, Pearse Stadium and O'Moore Park have smaller stands because they have more terracing. And where do you think Roscommon is going?

I have constantly held up O'Connor Park as an example of what most counties should be aiming for, it has a smaller capacity then Nowlan Park (only 20k). I have been saying 15 - 17k is sufficient for most grounds and that is achievable by building one new stand which is absolutely needed in most cases due to the poor standard of existing stands. I dont want a continuation of whats happening at the moment, I want smaller stadiums. Where you have terraces that can hold 20k, you either keep what you have or demolish it and level the site for temporary seating in the future. You seem to think that demolishing existing stands/terraces on all sides of a pitch and rebuilding new stands all around is cheaper than building one new stand!

And I have said that more games should be moved out of Croke Park and into these smaller grounds to give a better atmosphere. You have been the one peddling the "mini Crokers" idea which will only result in more games played in half empty stadiums!

threeball · 12-04-2015 3:25pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

How is Pearse Stadium or O'Moore Park different from Nowlan Park, all have similar capacities (Nowlan Park 25k, Pearse Stadium 26k, O'Moore Park 27k)? Why are two "gigantic stands in poor souless arena" but not the other? If anything, Pearse Stadium and O'Moore Park have smaller stands because they have more terracing. And where do you think Roscommon is going?

I have constantly held up O'Connor Park as an example of what most counties should be aiming for, it has a smaller capacity then Nowlan Park (only 20k). I have been saying 15 - 17k is sufficient for most grounds and that is achievable by building one new stand which is absolutely needed in most cases due to the poor standard of existing stands. I dont want a continuation of whats happening at the moment, I want smaller stadiums. Where you have terraces that can hold 20k, you either keep what you have or demolish it and level the site for temporary seating in the future. You seem to think that demolishing existing stands/terraces on all sides of a pitch and rebuilding new stands all around is cheaper than building one new stand!

And I have said that more games should be moved out of Croke Park and into these smaller grounds to give a better atmosphere. You have been the one peddling the "mini Crokers" idea which will only result in more games played in half empty stadiums!

I mentioned nowlan park as a stadium that has been developed to provide an atmosphere you coneniently ignored the part where I said it was too big.

The game today just proved my point. Croker provided the facilities and surface for players to perform it was just let down on atmosphere because the stadium is too big.
if you think we'll save money by building 32 half arsed oversized stadiums just because theres bits there already you're sorely mistaken. We will never develop a culture of following your team in atmospheres like those and that is where the real revenue lies.

Pete_Cavan · 12-04-2015 3:43pm

threeball wrote: »

I mentioned nowlan park as a stadium that has been developed to provide an atmosphere you coneniently ignored the part where I said it was too big.

The game today just proved my point. Croker provided the facilities and surface for players to perform it was just let down on atmosphere because the stadium is too big.
if you think we'll save money by building 32 half arsed oversized stadiums just because theres bits there already you're sorely mistaken. We will never develop a culture of following your team in atmospheres like those and that is where the real revenue lies.

I have been saying most grounds need one new stand, how is that "building 32 half arsed oversized stadiums"? If it is oversized because of existing terraces then you either knock the terrace or leave it as is. In either case you are not building an oversized stadium, it being oversized is a legacy issue but reducing capacity is only going to incur more costs. In any case, it is still cheaper than building Nowlan Parks everywhere.

keane2097 · 13-04-2015 5:02pm

Seems pretty stupid to obsess about making grounds smaller when they are already built.

keane2097 · 13-04-2015 5:03pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I think GAA planners need to realise they don't have to have a big enough ground for all games.

by having a smaller capacity for some games, it generates demand and forces advance ticket sales, therefore improving planning for a game - programs, food outlets, stewards etc

This - god be with the days of not being sure if you'd get a ticket for a game. The buzz was brilliant.

Pete_Cavan · 22-04-2015 4:57pm

Works now starting on new stand in Ruislip for London GAA;

http://www.hoganstand.com/football/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=235605

Some other interesting aspects to this, London will play home games at London Irish Rugbys training facility during the works;

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/london-gaa-to-play-2016-league-games-at-london-irish-base-1.2179566

They are also looking to sell naming rights for the ground;

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/0417/694712-london-seeking-title-sponsor-for-ruislip-ground/

Hibbeler · 22-04-2015 5:52pm

Does that mean they might play games at the Madjeski in Reading as well

? Good to see ruislip being updated however

I'm assuming the London Irish rugby training centre has a big enough pitch for gaelic games?

Wasn't there a lower leagues soccer team that offered to let London GAA use their facilities during the works as well?

zetecescort · 22-04-2015 7:08pm

work begins at Pairc Ui Chaoimh

J Cheever Loophole · 23-04-2015 7:58am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

All the talk has been about how the capacity is too high and unnecessary. My point is that the money is not being spent on the capacity; the terraces behind the goals already account for 24k, the uncovered seated stand is being reduced from 10k to 8k, that gives a capacity of 32k with minimal works which are necessary. A new main stand, which is needed, is going to push capacity over 40k anyway.

Demolishing the existing main stand and building a good quality new stand with modern facilities is going to cost tens of millions anyway. Building a basic stand with no other facilities will mean that nothing will happen there on non-match days but a good chunk of the CBA is based on somethings happening on non-match days. You can reduce costs but it is possible that that will reduce the benefits by an even greater amount. Whether the existing plan is worth the money they plan to spend is obviously questionable. The fact remains that a new stand is needed which is going to incur a substantial cost and this will give a capacity of >40k.

I would have to say that for a €70 million investment my immediate reaction is one of disappointment that what you've outlined is going to be the extent of the redevelopment.

I would have thought that aiming for a design that would be something akin to St Mary's Stadium or the King Power Stadium would have made more sense - a fully covered and modern 30 - 35,000 seater stadium.

nice_guy80 · 24-04-2015 8:35am

GROUNDS FOR CONCERN

good article about the lack of value for money in GAA projects

https://ewanmackenna.wordpress.com/2015/04/23/grounds-for-concern/

J Cheever Loophole · 24-04-2015 10:02am

A brilliant article - talk about hitting the nail on the head.

nice_guy80 · 24-04-2015 12:28pm

A lot of those building contracts end up with well connected contractors.

See Pearse Stadium and the Connollys

zetecescort · 24-04-2015 12:35pm

If people go to games for the "experience" then they should stick to the "Aviva" with the loud music and bellowing announcer.

Hopefully the GAA never go down this route. I go to games to see the games, not to eat hot dogs or drink pints or other ****e.

munchkin_utd · 24-04-2015 12:37pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

GROUNDS FOR CONCERN

good article about the lack of value for money in GAA projects

https://ewanmackenna.wordpress.com/2015/04/23/grounds-for-concern/

very good article indeed .

I could throw another few stadiums into the mix that have been opened recently in Germany that cost a fraction of PUC

for instance , completely new 30600 capacity (20k seats, remaining terrace) stadium in Augsburg for €45million
images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDVhT0CVumpS3NPQsHtcAxTTyUyEpI6DNCWH42yarD_S7HFG2LZw

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDVhT0CVumpS3NPQsHtcAxTTyUyEpI6DNCWH42yarD_S7HFG2LZw

for instance, completely new 15445 capacity all covered stadium in Ingolstadt for €20million
images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT5O7Z6nEWwMBwVKndzDWA0izkCP9ljTU1JT1OlAJlWkIW6sPbI

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT5O7Z6nEWwMBwVKndzDWA0izkCP9ljTU1JT1OlAJlWkIW6sPbI

for instance Magdeburg built a completely new 27,000 capacity (only 4000 standing) for €31million

why the GAA spends so much in comparison boggles the mind, and the article points out this anomoly.

J Cheever Loophole · 24-04-2015 1:08pm

zetecescort wrote: »

If people go to games for the "experience" then they should stick to the "Aviva" with the loud music and bellowing announcer.

Hopefully the GAA never go down this route. I go to games to see the games, not to eat hot dogs or drink pints or other ****e.

I'd like to think that's it's possible to demand what amounts to modern spectator facilities in the 21st Century without feeling that you're somehow compromising on the GAA experience!!

blue note · 24-04-2015 1:48pm

zetecescort wrote: »

If people go to games for the "experience" then they should stick to the "Aviva" with the loud music and bellowing announcer.

Hopefully the GAA never go down this route. I go to games to see the games, not to eat hot dogs or drink pints or other ****e.

A lot of the "experience" we want are comfortable seats, room in the tunnels, enough (non-smelly) bathrooms.

And things like an understandable announcer around the ground and the possibility of getting a cup of tea at half time without having to battle crowds for it would be nice too.

A lot of our grounds don't come close to these standards.

GAA Infastructure

Comments